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Author Topic: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East  (Read 2754 times)

Elonsmusk

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2020, 04:23:22 PM »
I think Buzz is a better coach than Wojo.   But that ship has sailed.   At the end of this season Wojo will have won between 105 and 110 games in years 2-6.   With a top 10 recruiting class coming in.  And no scandals.   Firing him now would be beyond stupid.

Doubt he’d get fired even if he misses NCAA this year. End of the day, I tend to think by end of this season we will know the peak of Wojo’s capabilities.
No doubt there are cultural differences, but sports is important for many Asians.

Cheeks

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2020, 04:25:13 PM »
Is “trendline” more important than where final season rankings finished and how the seasons ended?

Buzz went S16, S16, E8 in those last three years. Wojo?  Taking out his first two years?  NCAA 64, NIT, NCAA 64.

Wojo is doing okay. But it is pretty weak of Cheeks to try to make this comparison.

I can only compare apples to apples.  We have Buzz’s results in the New Big East and Wojo’s.

We know they had different start off points and different rules by which to recruit.

We also know the myth that Wojo hasn’t gotten better is nonsense.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2020, 04:29:13 PM »
Doubt he’d get fired even if he misses NCAA this year. End of the day, I tend to think by end of this season we will know the peak of Wojo’s capabilities.

Could not disagree more.  If this upcoming recruiting class becomes more of the norm, then lights out fun ahead. 
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

muguru

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2020, 04:31:55 PM »
I can only compare apples to apples.  We have Buzz’s results in the New Big East and Wojo’s.

We know they had different start off points and different rules by which to recruit.

We also know the myth that Wojo hasn’t gotten better is nonsense.

Sure, he has gotten better...that's fine, but speaking for myself...My god has the progress been slow. That's my issue. No reason it has had to be this slow either.
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

WhoaJoe2020

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2020, 04:33:41 PM »
I think Buzz is a better coach than Wojo.   But that ship has sailed.   At the end of this season Wojo will have won between 105 and 110 games in years 2-6.   With a top 10 recruiting class coming in.  And no scandals.   Firing him now would be beyond stupid.

Buzz trained his players like pit fighters. His boot camp videos are classics.
Wojo is a different cat, but I suspect he is just as intense and demanding.

Wojo has recruited from a different pool of players than Buzz did and the difference has been noticeable. The finesse approach vs raw athleticism and out working your opponent is fairly obvious.

Wojo seems to be trying to translate the Duke style of coaching and play into the big east and is getting decent results. I suspect, as his recruits continue to get longer and more athletic, the results will be even better and the team will resemble Duke even more. This approach has already proven itself in the BEast. Just look at Villanova.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 04:59:26 PM by WhoaJoe2020 »

Elonsmusk

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2020, 04:40:57 PM »
Could not disagree more.  If this upcoming recruiting class becomes more of the norm, then lights out fun ahead.

Guess we’ll see. I tend to think he won’t put together Top 10 recruiting classes consistently - and if he did he likely will struggle to manage roles/chemistry, nor will he likely have the Number 1 scorer in D-1 on his roster.

So, for those reasons I don’t see the ceiling being any higher than what we’ve seen/will see this year.


No doubt there are cultural differences, but sports is important for many Asians.

panda

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2020, 04:47:10 PM »
Guess we’ll see. I tend to think he won’t put together Top 10 recruiting classes consistently - and if he did he likely will struggle to manage roles/chemistry, nor will he likely have the Number 1 scorer in D-1 on his roster.

So, for those reasons I don’t see the ceiling being any higher than what we’ve seen/will see this year.

Lots of spots to fill next year. Usually that leads to a greater opportunity to sign a better class.

Elonsmusk

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2020, 05:18:55 PM »
Lots of spots to fill next year. Usually that leads to a greater opportunity to sign a better class.

Definitely. Lots of PT for Wojo to sell with Markus, Sacar, Jayce moving on.  Crean struggled to recruit good classes back to back even with a Final Four on his resume.

 
No doubt there are cultural differences, but sports is important for many Asians.

Cheeks

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2020, 06:23:07 PM »
Sure, he has gotten better...that's fine, but speaking for myself...My god has the progress been slow. That's my issue. No reason it has had to be this slow either.

Well, that is progress....you have some mates here that say no progress at all.  The worst one is when people play the ridiculous “in year 6” nonsense while ignoring what happened in other year 6’s at MU.  LOL

Each team is new, players come and go, as do coaching staffs, schedules change, etc.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2020, 06:24:41 PM »
Guess we’ll see. I tend to think he won’t put together Top 10 recruiting classes consistently - and if he did he likely will struggle to manage roles/chemistry, nor will he likely have the Number 1 scorer in D-1 on his roster.

So, for those reasons I don’t see the ceiling being any higher than what we’ve seen/will see this year.

Well, MU has only had 3 such classes in 20+ years.  One of them turned out to be spectacularly overrated....we will see how this one goes.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Elonsmusk

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2020, 06:28:23 PM »
Well, MU has only had 3 such classes in 20+ years.  One of them turned out to be spectacularly overrated....we will see how this one goes.

Well. That one class you speak of being spectacularly overrated had the unfortunate reality of having to play for a totally overmatched rookie coach that SIX years later is still seeking his first NCAA win, all while having the programs all-time leading scorer. So. There’s that.
No doubt there are cultural differences, but sports is important for many Asians.

PGsHeroes32

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2020, 06:29:10 PM »
Doubt he’d get fired even if he misses NCAA this year. End of the day, I tend to think by end of this season we will know the peak of Wojo’s capabilities.

There is no chance he gets fired after this year, none.
Lazar picking up where the BIG 3 left off....

manesworld

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2020, 06:33:16 PM »
Well. That one class you speak of being spectacularly overrated had the unfortunate reality of having to play for a totally overmatched rookie coach that SIX years later is still seeking his first NCAA win, all while having the programs all-time leading scorer. So. There’s that.

They played for a guy who was coming off three straight S16s. Not even that guy could coach that group to an NIT berth.

Wojo got them to the NCAAs their senior year at least.

Cheeks

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2020, 06:34:04 PM »
Well. That one class you speak of being spectacularly overrated had the unfortunate reality of having to play for a totally overmatched rookie coach that SIX years later is still seeking his first NCAA win, all while having the programs all-time leading scorer. So. There’s that.

In their first year they played for a guy named Buzz and did not do well, in addition one guy left before playing one minute for feeling lied to by Buzz...he went to Iowa State.  Another guy, John Dawson...just wow on his ranking.  Another had to redshirt....make sure you align your dates with your commentary.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Elonsmusk

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2020, 06:42:27 PM »
They played for a guy who was coming off three straight S16s. Not even that guy could coach that group to an NIT berth.

Wojo got them to the NCAAs their senior year at least.

You’re right. Wojo is a better coach than Buzz.  Buzz was super engaged that last year at MU. Really had a lot of job satisfaction. We all know the Derrick Wilson/Jake Thomas backcourt was a winning formula.

P.S.  Usually freshman get better over the course of their careers.
No doubt there are cultural differences, but sports is important for many Asians.

manesworld

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2020, 06:47:38 PM »
You’re right. Wojo is a better coach than Buzz.  Buzz was super engaged that last year at MU. Really had a lot of job satisfaction. We all know the Derrick Wilson/Jake Thomas backcourt was a winning formula.

P.S.  Usually freshman get better over the course of their careers.

Don’t lie about who they were playing for.

They played for Buzz. They’d didnt so much. They played for Wojo. They didn’t do much. Buzz’s history with high school recruits at MU wasn’t very good. At all.

Cheeks

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2020, 06:48:11 PM »
You’re right. Wojo is a better coach than Buzz.  Buzz was super engaged that last year at MU. Really had a lot of job satisfaction. We all know the Derrick Wilson/Jake Thomas backcourt was a winning formula.

P.S.  Usually freshman get better over the course of their careers.

That’s not what he said...but you incorrectly or purposely ignored the fact that highly rated class played for Buzz first, and did not do well.  I don’t know why you forgot it...black hole memory?
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Small Orange Soda

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2020, 09:14:02 PM »
I miss being ranked.
"When you're the leader of a group or an organization, you hold your kids accountable but the main person you need to hold accountable is me."  -Wojo

mu.n8ball

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2020, 09:15:23 PM »
Guess we’ll see. I tend to think he won’t put together Top 10 recruiting classes consistently - and if he did he likely will struggle to manage roles/chemistry, nor will he likely have the Number 1 scorer in D-1 on his roster.

this is my opinion and isn't directed at you, your statement is just what sparked the following thoughts in my head as an optimistic fan and alum with no special insider connections to the program. while I don't expect him to put top 10s consistently, I am optimistic that he'll recruit competitive classes. he has been able to get a one and done, and gets a number of highly touted guys to at least have us down to their final schools. I hope that as we get better results on the court, we win out with more of those guys.

the other thing I am excited about is that he was able to get the number 1 D1 scorer on our roster. he probably won't do it again, but our previous coaches didn't that before. And Markus has been fun to watch and grow over the past 4 years.

my opinion on coaches, not that anyone asked, is that I'll support who we've got at any time. Im not in a position to hire or fire them. All I have power to do is root for the guys we got from the AD to the student managers. I become disgruntled at poor performance (like Mike McCoy when he coached the Chargers) but I don't root against them. When the coach is succeeding, Marquette is succeeding and that's ultimately my hope. Pay the price of success in honest effort.

That said, I hope these trends continue, and that the slopes becomes steeper. though as far as speed of improvement, I'd rather be the tortoise than the hare because I'm used to lasting improvement and institutional progress to be slow steady processes. again, average Joe here, just an outsider looking in.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2020, 09:38:12 PM »
Buzz trained his players like pit fighters. His boot camp videos are classics.
Wojo is a different cat, but I suspect he is just as intense and demanding.



Buzz’s teams looked fresh and ready in the NCAA tournament.

Wojo’s teams have looked tired and unprepared.

MU82

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2020, 09:43:19 PM »
Buzz’s teams looked fresh and ready in the NCAA tournament.

Wojo’s teams have looked tired and unprepared.

The results certainly support this, Lenny.

Of course, only an ignoramus would claim otherwise -- or that Wojo has been in Buzz's league as a coach.

I'm hoping Wojo continues to improve, as I believe he has done, albeit more slowly than I'd like.
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TAMU Garcia

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2020, 09:44:13 PM »
Interesting data. Appreciate it being put together. But I'd wait until the end of this season to draw any conclusions.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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Cheeks

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2020, 10:05:47 PM »
Interesting data. Appreciate it being put together. But I'd wait until the end of this season to draw any conclusions.

Agree...definitely a work in progress, but hopefully some actual data from multiple sources quiets some of the mythology.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2020, 10:21:44 PM »
Okay--helping you wonks.  Inserting polynomial trends (most appropriate, order adjusted based on turning points).  Using KPom ranks back to 1997 at season end. Season to date in 2020.

  • Versus BE entry:  Average/flat momentum.  Holding our own
  • Over time: Holding our own but slightly soft on momentum with those great NCAA years.


In other words, Wojo holding serve but he promised us the Golden Ticket.  Some are patient.  Some are impatient.  Wojo has MU right in-between.

Shooter McGavin

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Re: Updated trajectory ratings since MU joined new Big East
« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2020, 10:39:42 PM »
I miss being ranked.

May happen this year orange.  Keep the faith.