MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Cheeks on January 19, 2020, 01:45:45 PM
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Some of our computer rankings at the moment are higher than last year. The ratings capture how MU has done since joining the new Big East conference. The lower the number, the better.
(https://i.imgur.com/xYaxJwy.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/9bD3UWZ.jpg)
Final graph is number of NCAA wins since joining the new Big East...see below
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Good stuff. I'd suggest you remove 2015 unless you want to piss off the Pro-Jo's. They will tell you that was a throw away season. Although, it would be interesting to see the trend line without 2015. ;)
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Good stuff. I'd suggest you remove 2015 unless you want to piss off the Pro-Jo's. They will tell you that was a throw away season. Although, it would be interesting to see the trend line without 2015. ;)
Nah, 2015 was a rebuild year (I'd argue 2016 as well)...including them all. The trendline directionally still slopes for improvement....even last year to this year is improvement, but it becomes flatter.
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Can you illustrate this dating back to the year we joined Big East?
No doubt easier to improve “trajectory” when the first season turned in during Wojo’s tenure was the worst at MU in perhaps 25ish years?
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Can you illustrate this dating back to the year we joined Big East?
No doubt easier to improve “trajectory” when the first season turned in during Wojo’s tenure was the worst at MU in perhaps 25ish years?
Definitely don't ask him to do it for the old Big East for Buzz, and remind him how many BE championships Buzz won in the toughest conference ever assembled, and then ask him to compare THAT to Wojo's tenure. He hates it because he knows Buzz was successful(a lot more than Wojo), so every time you bring it up, he just has to throw in off court stuff to try to deflect an argument he can't win based strictly basketball. ;)
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Definitely don't ask him to do it for the old Big East for Buzz, and remind him how many BE championships Buzz won in the toughest conference ever assembled, and then ask him to compare THAT to Wojo's tenure. He hates it because he knows Buzz was successful(a lot more than Wojo), so every time you bring it up, he just has to throw in off court stuff to try to deflect an argument he can't win based strictly basketball. ;)
I'm doing apples to apples comparisons...we aren't in the old Big East, we're in the new Big East. Wojo never coached in the old Big East. Buzz coached in both the old and the new Big East.
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This way we can see them
(https://i.imgur.com/xYaxJwy.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/9bD3UWZ.jpg)
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Can you illustrate this dating back to the year we joined Big East?
No doubt easier to improve “trajectory” when the first season turned in during Wojo’s tenure was the worst at MU in perhaps 25ish years?
I think the bigger point is that even over last year our rating numbers are better. I'll see what I can do, the data is very limited. As an example, Sagarin goes back to 2000 at USA Today and that year we had a rating of 82.
1991 (oldest RPI I can find), under KO...our RPI was 165...worse than anything Wojo has done. Ken Pom is 2002...Sagarin was around in the 80's when I was at school, but the oldest one I can find in 2000.
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Started a sheet using just Kenpom BE numbers. Using the google chart trendline function.
Crean & Wojo. Good trendline.
Buzz. Bad trendline
Overall: Bad trendline
Playing with it - since 2012, good trendline.
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I think the bigger point is that even over last year our rating numbers are better. I'll see what I can do, the data is very limited. As an example, Sagarin goes back to 2000 at USA Today and that year we had a rating of 82.
1991 (oldest RPI I can find), under KO...our RPI was 165...worse than anything Wojo has done. Ken Pom is 2002...Sagarin was around in the 80's when I was at school, but the oldest one I can find in 2000.
Great. Look forward to seeing what the graph looks like perhaps you can do one of these after next season too.
Wojo is doing a good job with this team, this year. I felt the fall off would be greater given the loss of Hausers.
However, we do have the leading scorer in D-1 hoops, and the best scorer to ever wear the MU Jersey. So. We should be pretty good with a player of Markus’s caliber.
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Are you using tableau for this?
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This way we can see them
(https://i.imgur.com/xYaxJwy.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/9bD3UWZ.jpg)
Thanks. I'm using computer where they look fine, but this will help for mobile
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Are you using tableau for this?
Old fashioned excel
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Started a sheet using just Kenpom BE numbers. Using the google chart trendline function.
Crean & Wojo. Good trendline.
Buzz. Bad trendline
Overall: Bad trendline
Playing with it - since 2012, good trendline.
I love how one bad year in a decade run becomes the anchor point for all trend lines
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I love how one bad year in a decade run becomes the anchor point for all trend lines
Again, doesn't have to. Even last year to this year numbers have improved. Look at the last 5 years if you wish, or 4 years. The myth here has been Wojo hasn't improved....that is statistically absolute RUBBISH.
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I love how one bad year in a decade run becomes the anchor point for all trend lines
Sigh. Ok. I removed Buzz's last year, and Wojo's first two. Doesn't change the trendlines much...eh?
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Great. Look forward to seeing what the graph looks like perhaps you can do one of these after next season too.
Wojo is doing a good job with this team, this year. I felt the fall off would be greater given the loss of Hausers.
However, we do have the leading scorer in D-1 hoops, and the best scorer to ever wear the MU Jersey. So. We should be pretty good with a player of Markus’s caliber.
It is possible next year is a step back. It is possible that with a Duke-like class we get Duke-like results. Not worth worrying about yet.
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Sigh. Ok. I removed Buzz's last year, and Wojo's first two. Doesn't change the trendlines much...eh?
I’m not trying to be antagonistic. My point is that post big East arrival we had a great run that is fairly consistent. As demonstrated by the fairly flat buzz line. Post NBE we took a step back (trend line or not). Not really sure that the trend line is as meaningful as what appears to be a plateau at about 30.
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It is possible next year is a step back. It is possible that with a Duke-like class we get Duke-like results. Not worth worrying about yet.
LOL
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Sigh. Ok. I removed Buzz's last year, and Wojo's first two. Doesn't change the trendlines much...eh?
Is “trendline” more important than where final season rankings finished and how the seasons ended?
Buzz went S16, S16, E8 in those last three years. Wojo? Taking out his first two years? NCAA 64, NIT, NCAA 64.
Wojo is doing okay. But it is pretty weak of Cheeks to try to make this comparison.
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Is “trendline” more important than where final season rankings finished and how the seasons ended?
Buzz went S16, S16, E8 in those last three years. Wojo? Taking out his first two years? NCAA 64, NIT, NCAA 64.
Wojo is doing okay. But it is pretty weak of Cheeks to try to make this comparison.
It takes a significant amount of mental gymnastics to spin the fact that Wojo is doing better than Buzz at this point.
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It takes a significant amount of mental gymnastics to spin the fact that Wojo is doing better than Buzz at this point.
Well, mental gymnastics are par for the course for Cheeks.
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Well, mental gymnastics are par for the course for Cheeks.
That is the understatement of the century!
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I think Buzz is a better coach than Wojo. But that ship has sailed. At the end of this season Wojo will have won between 105 and 110 games in years 2-6. With a top 10 recruiting class coming in. And no scandals. Firing him now would be beyond stupid.
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I can't speak for Chicos, I was curious about the trendline for a longer range (BE) as suggested earlier in the thread.
It's pretty clear the Amigos were a game changer, and greatly helped Creans 3 BE years.
Buzz greatly benefited the from the Amigos his first year, and then caught some lightning in a bottle cobbling together existing players and Jucos to level off around the mid 20s. His last year was a disaster, and at that point he was trending the wrong direction (though we all would have given him a few more years to get his mojo back)
Wojo had a rough first couple years, but has settled in nicely, and appears to be trending in the correct direction.
As for NCAA success - I think we all want that. I'm not arguing that Wojo is better than Buzz. But he's also no doing as awful as some would like to believe. I will point out, the "final" Kenpom numbers do include the results from Buzz's NCAA tourney runs.
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I think Buzz is a better coach than Wojo. But that ship has sailed. At the end of this season Wojo will have won between 105 and 110 games in years 2-6. With a top 10 recruiting class coming in. And no scandals. Firing him now would be beyond stupid.
Doubt he’d get fired even if he misses NCAA this year. End of the day, I tend to think by end of this season we will know the peak of Wojo’s capabilities.
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Is “trendline” more important than where final season rankings finished and how the seasons ended?
Buzz went S16, S16, E8 in those last three years. Wojo? Taking out his first two years? NCAA 64, NIT, NCAA 64.
Wojo is doing okay. But it is pretty weak of Cheeks to try to make this comparison.
I can only compare apples to apples. We have Buzz’s results in the New Big East and Wojo’s.
We know they had different start off points and different rules by which to recruit.
We also know the myth that Wojo hasn’t gotten better is nonsense.
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Doubt he’d get fired even if he misses NCAA this year. End of the day, I tend to think by end of this season we will know the peak of Wojo’s capabilities.
Could not disagree more. If this upcoming recruiting class becomes more of the norm, then lights out fun ahead.
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I can only compare apples to apples. We have Buzz’s results in the New Big East and Wojo’s.
We know they had different start off points and different rules by which to recruit.
We also know the myth that Wojo hasn’t gotten better is nonsense.
Sure, he has gotten better...that's fine, but speaking for myself...My god has the progress been slow. That's my issue. No reason it has had to be this slow either.
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I think Buzz is a better coach than Wojo. But that ship has sailed. At the end of this season Wojo will have won between 105 and 110 games in years 2-6. With a top 10 recruiting class coming in. And no scandals. Firing him now would be beyond stupid.
Buzz trained his players like pit fighters. His boot camp videos are classics.
Wojo is a different cat, but I suspect he is just as intense and demanding.
Wojo has recruited from a different pool of players than Buzz did and the difference has been noticeable. The finesse approach vs raw athleticism and out working your opponent is fairly obvious.
Wojo seems to be trying to translate the Duke style of coaching and play into the big east and is getting decent results. I suspect, as his recruits continue to get longer and more athletic, the results will be even better and the team will resemble Duke even more. This approach has already proven itself in the BEast. Just look at Villanova.
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Could not disagree more. If this upcoming recruiting class becomes more of the norm, then lights out fun ahead.
Guess we’ll see. I tend to think he won’t put together Top 10 recruiting classes consistently - and if he did he likely will struggle to manage roles/chemistry, nor will he likely have the Number 1 scorer in D-1 on his roster.
So, for those reasons I don’t see the ceiling being any higher than what we’ve seen/will see this year.
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Guess we’ll see. I tend to think he won’t put together Top 10 recruiting classes consistently - and if he did he likely will struggle to manage roles/chemistry, nor will he likely have the Number 1 scorer in D-1 on his roster.
So, for those reasons I don’t see the ceiling being any higher than what we’ve seen/will see this year.
Lots of spots to fill next year. Usually that leads to a greater opportunity to sign a better class.
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Lots of spots to fill next year. Usually that leads to a greater opportunity to sign a better class.
Definitely. Lots of PT for Wojo to sell with Markus, Sacar, Jayce moving on. Crean struggled to recruit good classes back to back even with a Final Four on his resume.
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Sure, he has gotten better...that's fine, but speaking for myself...My god has the progress been slow. That's my issue. No reason it has had to be this slow either.
Well, that is progress....you have some mates here that say no progress at all. The worst one is when people play the ridiculous “in year 6” nonsense while ignoring what happened in other year 6’s at MU. LOL
Each team is new, players come and go, as do coaching staffs, schedules change, etc.
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Guess we’ll see. I tend to think he won’t put together Top 10 recruiting classes consistently - and if he did he likely will struggle to manage roles/chemistry, nor will he likely have the Number 1 scorer in D-1 on his roster.
So, for those reasons I don’t see the ceiling being any higher than what we’ve seen/will see this year.
Well, MU has only had 3 such classes in 20+ years. One of them turned out to be spectacularly overrated....we will see how this one goes.
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Well, MU has only had 3 such classes in 20+ years. One of them turned out to be spectacularly overrated....we will see how this one goes.
Well. That one class you speak of being spectacularly overrated had the unfortunate reality of having to play for a totally overmatched rookie coach that SIX years later is still seeking his first NCAA win, all while having the programs all-time leading scorer. So. There’s that.
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Doubt he’d get fired even if he misses NCAA this year. End of the day, I tend to think by end of this season we will know the peak of Wojo’s capabilities.
There is no chance he gets fired after this year, none.
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Well. That one class you speak of being spectacularly overrated had the unfortunate reality of having to play for a totally overmatched rookie coach that SIX years later is still seeking his first NCAA win, all while having the programs all-time leading scorer. So. There’s that.
They played for a guy who was coming off three straight S16s. Not even that guy could coach that group to an NIT berth.
Wojo got them to the NCAAs their senior year at least.
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Well. That one class you speak of being spectacularly overrated had the unfortunate reality of having to play for a totally overmatched rookie coach that SIX years later is still seeking his first NCAA win, all while having the programs all-time leading scorer. So. There’s that.
In their first year they played for a guy named Buzz and did not do well, in addition one guy left before playing one minute for feeling lied to by Buzz...he went to Iowa State. Another guy, John Dawson...just wow on his ranking. Another had to redshirt....make sure you align your dates with your commentary.
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They played for a guy who was coming off three straight S16s. Not even that guy could coach that group to an NIT berth.
Wojo got them to the NCAAs their senior year at least.
You’re right. Wojo is a better coach than Buzz. Buzz was super engaged that last year at MU. Really had a lot of job satisfaction. We all know the Derrick Wilson/Jake Thomas backcourt was a winning formula.
P.S. Usually freshman get better over the course of their careers.
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You’re right. Wojo is a better coach than Buzz. Buzz was super engaged that last year at MU. Really had a lot of job satisfaction. We all know the Derrick Wilson/Jake Thomas backcourt was a winning formula.
P.S. Usually freshman get better over the course of their careers.
Don’t lie about who they were playing for.
They played for Buzz. They’d didnt so much. They played for Wojo. They didn’t do much. Buzz’s history with high school recruits at MU wasn’t very good. At all.
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You’re right. Wojo is a better coach than Buzz. Buzz was super engaged that last year at MU. Really had a lot of job satisfaction. We all know the Derrick Wilson/Jake Thomas backcourt was a winning formula.
P.S. Usually freshman get better over the course of their careers.
That’s not what he said...but you incorrectly or purposely ignored the fact that highly rated class played for Buzz first, and did not do well. I don’t know why you forgot it...black hole memory?
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I miss being ranked.
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Guess we’ll see. I tend to think he won’t put together Top 10 recruiting classes consistently - and if he did he likely will struggle to manage roles/chemistry, nor will he likely have the Number 1 scorer in D-1 on his roster.
this is my opinion and isn't directed at you, your statement is just what sparked the following thoughts in my head as an optimistic fan and alum with no special insider connections to the program. while I don't expect him to put top 10s consistently, I am optimistic that he'll recruit competitive classes. he has been able to get a one and done, and gets a number of highly touted guys to at least have us down to their final schools. I hope that as we get better results on the court, we win out with more of those guys.
the other thing I am excited about is that he was able to get the number 1 D1 scorer on our roster. he probably won't do it again, but our previous coaches didn't that before. And Markus has been fun to watch and grow over the past 4 years.
my opinion on coaches, not that anyone asked, is that I'll support who we've got at any time. Im not in a position to hire or fire them. All I have power to do is root for the guys we got from the AD to the student managers. I become disgruntled at poor performance (like Mike McCoy when he coached the Chargers) but I don't root against them. When the coach is succeeding, Marquette is succeeding and that's ultimately my hope. Pay the price of success in honest effort.
That said, I hope these trends continue, and that the slopes becomes steeper. though as far as speed of improvement, I'd rather be the tortoise than the hare because I'm used to lasting improvement and institutional progress to be slow steady processes. again, average Joe here, just an outsider looking in.
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Buzz trained his players like pit fighters. His boot camp videos are classics.
Wojo is a different cat, but I suspect he is just as intense and demanding.
Buzz’s teams looked fresh and ready in the NCAA tournament.
Wojo’s teams have looked tired and unprepared.
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Buzz’s teams looked fresh and ready in the NCAA tournament.
Wojo’s teams have looked tired and unprepared.
The results certainly support this, Lenny.
Of course, only an ignoramus would claim otherwise -- or that Wojo has been in Buzz's league as a coach.
I'm hoping Wojo continues to improve, as I believe he has done, albeit more slowly than I'd like.
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Interesting data. Appreciate it being put together. But I'd wait until the end of this season to draw any conclusions.
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Interesting data. Appreciate it being put together. But I'd wait until the end of this season to draw any conclusions.
Agree...definitely a work in progress, but hopefully some actual data from multiple sources quiets some of the mythology.
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Okay--helping you wonks. Inserting polynomial trends (most appropriate, order adjusted based on turning points). Using KPom ranks back to 1997 at season end. Season to date in 2020.
- Versus BE entry: Average/flat momentum. Holding our own
- Over time: Holding our own but slightly soft on momentum with those great NCAA years.
In other words, Wojo holding serve but he promised us the Golden Ticket. Some are patient. Some are impatient. Wojo has MU right in-between.
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I miss being ranked.
May happen this year orange. Keep the faith.
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Buzz’s teams looked fresh and ready in the NCAA tournament.
Wojo’s teams have looked tired and unprepared.
Except when they collapsed a 15 point lead in the second half to Washington. Etc.... memories are so fragile with age.
I guess being up at half against South Carolina and very much in the game until the final seven minutes means we weren’t prepared...LOL.
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Okay--helping you wonks.
Wonks!? And you attached phone pics? Screenshot attached. And see your PMs.
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Okay--helping you wonks. Inserting polynomial trends (most appropriate, order adjusted based on turning points). Using KPom ranks back to 1997 at season end. Season to date in 2020.
- Versus BE entry: Average/flat momentum. Holding our own
- Over time: Holding our own but slightly soft on momentum with those great NCAA years.
In other words, Wojo holding serve but he promised us the Golden Ticket. Some are patient. Some are impatient. Wojo has MU right in-between.
He promised us the Golden Ticket....source please.
Hell, MU didn’t promise it either.
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This banner is brought to you by Arby's.
(https://snipboard.io/m14nSD.jpg)
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This banner is brought to you by Arby's.
(https://snipboard.io/m14nSD.jpg)
Don't you need an 'banner asterisk' with the footnote "Except 2018, which was totally expected so stop pointing it out"
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Don't you need an 'banner asterisk' with the footnote "Except 2018, which was totally expected so stop pointing it out"
Agreed.
And I probably should have matched the font to this one that is hung in MU's banner rack, sponsored by Arby's:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wLC1BvCK-88/TUL1YcHy4jI/AAAAAAAAATI/Tt8hvkUFud4/s200/MU_losses.jpg)
http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2011/01/derailed-mu-looks-to-get-back-on-track.html
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Topper, did you really stop buying tickets?
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Topper, did you really stop buying tickets?
Yes with an asterisk. After 19 years of season tickets, we dropped to a mini-plan this year, knowingly blowing most of our blue/gold points. Probably should have gone to single game tickets, but Mrs. Hilltopper couldn't quit cold turkey, so here we are.
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Yes with an asterisk. After 19 years of season tickets, we dropped to a mini-plan this year, knowingly blowing most of our blue/gold points. Probably should have gone to single game tickets, but Mrs. Hilltopper couldn't quit cold turkey, so here we are.
Good for Mrs. Hilltopper!
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Good for Mrs. Hilltopper!
I was ready to drop a few seasons ago. You know what broke her spirit? Hausershima. (And being married to me, tid-dit-boom.)
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He promised us the Golden Ticket....source please.
Hell, MU didn’t promise it either.
You are right. We were promised 9-9 and 5th place in the BE.
#wineveryday
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I see that everyone has thoroughly enjoyed the 2 for 5 menu at Arby's. Dauster is right...we truly are a miserable fanbase. But you love what you love.
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(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HideousFelineAfricanporcupine-size_restricted.gif)
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Yes with an asterisk. After 19 years of season tickets, we dropped to a mini-plan this year, knowingly blowing most of our blue/gold points. Probably should have gone to single game tickets, but Mrs. Hilltopper couldn't quit cold turkey, so here we are.
Thank goodness for Mrs Topper
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You are right. We were promised 9-9 and 5th place in the BE.
#wineveryday
I think he promised a competitive program and playing within the rules, representing the university well, graduating players, competing for conference titles, etc.
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Except when they collapsed a 15 point lead in the second half to Washington. Etc.... memories are so fragile with age.
I guess being up at half against South Carolina and very much in the game until the final seven minutes means we weren’t prepared...LOL.
Or when they lost 5 out of the last 7 (4 out of the last 4).
Two of those were losses to the “we should never lose to” Providence and St John’s teams. And the two wins were against 3-15 DePaul in overtime and a mediocre Georgetown team.
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Yes with an asterisk. After 19 years of season tickets, we dropped to a mini-plan this year, knowingly blowing most of our blue/gold points. Probably should have gone to single game tickets, but Mrs. Hilltopper couldn't quit cold turkey, so here we are.
Couldn’t you have bought a single $125 seat to keep those points alive incase you want to purchase in the future?
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Or when they lost 5 out of the last 7 (4 out of the last 4).
Two of those were losses to the “we should never lose to” Providence and St John’s teams. And the two wins were against 3-15 DePaul in overtime and a mediocre Georgetown team.
Or stepping on the line against Mizzou.
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Except when they collapsed a 15 point lead in the second half to Washington. Etc.... memories are so fragile with age.
I guess being up at half against South Carolina and very much in the game until the final seven minutes means we weren’t prepared...LOL.
13 NCAA tournament games in 6 years, 8 of them wins. One large lead blown (it’s called an outlier) in a 2 point loss in a game that we were a 1 point favorite in.
Versus
2 NCAA tournament games in 5 years, 0 of them wins. A 20 point loss in a pick ‘em game (one in which you admitted we ran out of gas) and a 19 point loss as a 4.5 point favorite.
Whose memory is “fragile with age”? You have your biases, I have the facts. Rinse, wash, repeat.
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13 NCAA tournament games in 6 years, 8 of them wins. One large lead blown (it’s called an outlier) in a 2 point loss in a game that we were a 1 point favorite in.
Versus
2 NCAA tournament games in 5 years, 0 of them wins. A 20 point loss in a pick ‘em game (one in which you admitted we ran out of gas) and a 19 point loss as a 4.5 point favorite.
Whose memory is “fragile with age”? You have your biases, I have the facts. Rinse, wash, repeat.
You can't say every game they looked fresh in the wins though. They certainly didn't against Utah St, Murray St or Davidson. Add those to Washington, Mizzou, UNC, Syracuse (2013) and Florida as tired and unprepared.
They looked fresh and ready against Miami, Xavier, BYU, and Syracuse (2011)
Don't remember the Butler game very well as I was hammered so no opinion. And I know you'll respond with location of Murray St or Dom coming back from injury. But then why disqualify location of South Carolina game and Lazar stepping on the line is a mental error that had nothing to do with "the return"
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I find it interesting that the numbers currently show us doing better this year than last, yet some think that Powell might beat Markus for BE POY because we aren't doing well enough for Markus to win.
If Markus won last season with those team numbers, he can certainly win it this year with better overall team numbers, and absolutely devastating personal stats.
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Or when they lost 5 out of the last 7 (4 out of the last 4).
Two of those were losses to the “we should never lose to” Providence and St John’s teams. And the two wins were against 3-15 DePaul in overtime and a mediocre Georgetown team.
Memories are a one way street around here....remember that 8-)
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You can't say every game they looked fresh in the wins though. They certainly didn't against Utah St, Murray St or Davidson. Add those to Washington, Mizzou, UNC, Syracuse (2013) and Florida as tired and unprepared.
They looked fresh and ready against Miami, Xavier, BYU, and Syracuse (2011)
Yup, but that would be counter to the agenda point he is failing to make that Buzz’steams wer always fresh and prepared at the end and Wojo’s weren’t....facts be damned.
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13 NCAA tournament games in 6 years, 8 of them wins. One large lead blown (it’s called an outlier) in a 2 point loss in a game that we were a 1 point favorite in.
Versus
2 NCAA tournament games in 5 years, 0 of them wins. A 20 point loss in a pick ‘em game (one in which you admitted we ran out of gas) and a 19 point loss as a 4.5 point favorite.
Whose memory is “fragile with age”? You have your biases, I have the facts. Rinse, wash, repeat.
Two completely different situations. Buzz was a very good coach placed in a great situation. He walked into a team with 3 Sr leaders. One an NBA Allstar. One MUs all time leading scorer before Markus and one the best PG we have had for awhile. The fourth starter was also an NBA player. Coming off the bench was a future NBA all star.
His second year he had Lazar, Butler and DJO. Though he had no center they played well enough to get to the NCAA tournament. Great job.
Following year he had Butler, Crowder, DJO, Blue. Give Buzz credit for recruiting a great.
Buzz’s first two years were impacted by Crean. Wojo’s first two were impacted by Buzz. Key question. Knowing what Buzz did with a better team the year before if MU hired Buzz Williams into the same situation as Wojo would he have been as good as he was when MU actually hired him?
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Two completely different situations. Buzz was a very good coach placed in a great situation. He walked into a team with 3 Sr leaders. One an NBA Allstar. One MUs all time leading scorer before Markus and one the best PG we have had for awhile. The fourth starter was also an NBA player. Coming off the bench was a future NBA all star.
His second year he had Lazar, Butler and DJO. Though he had no center they played well enough to get to the NCAA tournament. Great job.
Following year he had Butler, Crowder, DJO, Blue. Give Buzz credit for recruiting a great.
Buzz’s first two years were impacted by Crean. Wojo’s first two were impacted by Buzz. Key question. Knowing what Buzz did with a better team the year before if MU hired Buzz Williams into the same situation as Wojo would he have been as good as he was when MU actually hired him?
Buzz inherited a 2-16 VaTech program ranked 166th in the country and 2 years later had it ranked higher than Wojo had MU. Meanwhile Wojo took over a program that made the NCAA 8 of the last 9 seasons, and had 5 underclassmen, Top 100 players on the roster he inherited. Not the players fault Wojo was a rookie coach, totally in over his head.
As for MU - Buzz inherited 1-year of great talent. Year 2? He found a way to make the tournament with a 7 man roster, which included two guys under 5'9" - Mo and Cubillian.
So, to answer your question, yes, I think Buzz Williams would have done just fine if he walked into the situation Wojo inherited. Why are we even having this conversation? It's no contest.
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Couldn’t you have bought a single $125 seat to keep those points alive incase you want to purchase in the future?
Yes, I could have. Decided against it. Even if MU won the next 5 National Championships, my desire to witness 20+ games a year has disappeared. 3-4-5 games a year is plenty.
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You can't say every game they looked fresh in the wins though. They certainly didn't against Utah St, Murray St or Davidson. Add those to Washington, Mizzou, UNC, Syracuse (2013) and Florida as tired and unprepared.
They looked fresh and ready against Miami, Xavier, BYU, and Syracuse (2011)
Don't remember the Butler game very well as I was hammered so no opinion. And I know you'll respond with location of Murray St or Dom coming back from injury. But then why disqualify location of South Carolina game and Lazar stepping on the line is a mental error that had nothing to do with "the return"
Galway,
I didn’t say every game or always (Chico’s word). It was a general statement and I think an accurate one. Here are my recollections:
As a favorite: Beat Utah State and Davidson, each by 1. Utah St. was close all the way, we let them dictate tempo. Buzz’s first tournament game, going against a Hall of Famer. Not artistic, but we outlasted them. Against Davidson, our plan and our energy was fine but we shot it horribly. Epic comeback, out of a timeout we get a lay up to win the game. The Murray St team we beat was outstanding, the best in their history. 31-1, #6 seed, and we were playing them in their own back yard. We were a very small favorite (-2.5). We controlled the game and beat them handily by 9. We were 6 point favorites vs BYU. A rout from the start, we won by 20.
Toss ups: the Washington game was one of runs - both teams “blew” double digit leads and the game was nip and tuck down the stretch. We lost by a bucket. Butler was a rematch of the championship game of the Rainbow Classic where they beat us by 1. We won the rematch (the one that really mattered) by 2. Two really good teams, two really good coaches (Buzz and Brad Stevens), two great games.
As an underdog: UNC and Syracuse were ugly. We were totally outmanned vs Carolina, and the Syracuse zone that we had shredded in Milwaukee a few weeks earlier was in total sync. They routed the tourney’s #1 seed (Indiana) and then they routed us. Florida had Beal and were just better than us. We shot poorly, lost by 10. The Missouri game was a great game throughout, we came up short when Lazar had a brain cramp at the end. We also had great success as an underdog. Buzz sicced Jimmy Butler on Xavier’s high scoring point guard and we cruised. DJO stuck the dagger in 3 seeded Syracuse and we beat them as an 11 seed. And we routed #2 seed Miami.
Nit pick where you will, I think that’s a really solid resume’ in March.
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Galway,
I didn’t say every game or always (Chico’s word). It was a general statement and I think an accurate one. Here are my recollections:
As a favorite: Beat Utah State and Davidson, each by 1. Utah St. was close all the way, we let them dictate tempo. Buzz’s first tournament game, going against a Hall of Famer. Not artistic, but we outlasted them. Against Davidson, our plan and our energy was fine but we shot it horribly. Epic comeback, out of a timeout we get a lay up to win the game. The Murray St team we beat was outstanding, the best in their history. 31-1, #6 seed, and we were playing them in their own back yard. We were a very small favorite (-2.5). We controlled the game and beat them handily by 9. We were 6 point favorites vs BYU. A rout from the start, we won by 20.
Toss ups: the Washington game was one of runs - both teams “blew” double digit leads and the game was nip and tuck down the stretch. We lost by a bucket. Butler was a rematch of the championship game of the Rainbow Classic where they beat us by 1. We won the rematch (the one that really mattered) by 2. Two really good teams, two really good coaches (Buzz and Brad Stevens), two great games.
As an underdog: UNC and Syracuse were ugly. We were totally outmanned vs Carolina, and the Syracuse zone that we had shredded in Milwaukee a few weeks earlier was in total sync. They routed the tourney’s #1 seed (Indiana) and then they routed us. Florida had Beal and were just better than us. We shot poorly, lost by 10. The Missouri game was a great game throughout, we came up short when Lazar had a brain cramp at the end. We also had great success as an underdog. Buzz sicced Jimmy Butler on Xavier’s high scoring point guard and we cruised. DJO stuck the dagger in 3 seeded Syracuse and we beat them as an 11 seed. And we routed #2 seed Miami.
Nit pick where you will, I think that’s a really solid resume’ in March.
Ok so we're giving buzz a pass for a rough first tournament game one which we were by far the better team with four HoF players and Murray st for it being in their backyard (that game was closer than you give it credit for we pulled away on FTs quick google search says 11ties and 8 lead changes is not controlling) I think that's fair. However then you should give Wojo a pass for a first tournament game with significantly less talent, against a team also playing in their backyard.
Shot it horribly as the Davidson excuse could be said about the second half of the South Carolina game as well. And Washington never lead by more than 5 we lead by 16. Shooting it terribly And blowing a lead relates to the statement about what a team looks like (focused and energized vs tired).
Look I'm not saying give Wojo a pass, I'm only saying that I think it's disingenuous to say Buzz's teams were always locked in when we struggled mightily against many teams seeded significantly lower than us. I do agree about Florida being a very poor matchup for us so I will take that off the games we didn't look prepped for.
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Buzz won 8 tourney games. Wojo hasn't. Yes, Buzz's teams lost some games that, on paper, they should have won. Yes, Buzz's teams lost badly at home, got rolled, the works. That is the nature of college basketball. But Wojo hasn't built up the S-16, S-16, E-8 cache that Buzz had. The fact that Wojo will more than likely finish this season having won 105-110 games in years 2-6 would be enough if there had been a NCAA tourney win or two sprinkled in. It is enough to keep his seat from warming up, no matter how much wailing and gnashing of teeth goes on. But until he wins a couple tourney games, or gets a team to far out perform its perceived potential, there are going to be those who are going to pound their fists.
Big opportunity this year. With what left, and the string of injuries, if MU has a record similar to last year and actually wins a tourney game, a whole lot of people are either going to have to be quiet, change their opinion, or start looking for other things to complain about.
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Buzz won 8 tourney games. Wojo hasn't. Yes, Buzz's teams lost some games that, on paper, they should have won. Yes, Buzz's teams lost badly at home, got rolled, the works. That is the nature of college basketball. But Wojo hasn't built up the S-16, S-16, E-8 cache that Buzz had. The fact that Wojo will more than likely finish this season having won 105-110 games in years 2-6 would be enough if there had been a NCAA tourney win or two sprinkled in. It is enough to keep his seat from warming up, no matter how much wailing and gnashing of teeth goes on. But until he wins a couple tourney games, or gets a team to far out perform its perceived potential, there are going to be those who are going to pound their fists.
Big opportunity this year. With what left, and the string of injuries, if MU has a record similar to last year and actually wins a tourney game, a whole lot of people are either going to have to be quiet, change their opinion, or start looking for other things to complain about.
Lots of people on Scoop complain about wins. I think we know where they will go with their opinions ("I can't believe we only won teh s16 game by 5")
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Buzz won 8 tourney games. Wojo hasn't. Yes, Buzz's teams lost some games that, on paper, they should have won. Yes, Buzz's teams lost badly at home, got rolled, the works. That is the nature of college basketball. But Wojo hasn't built up the S-16, S-16, E-8 cache that Buzz had. The fact that Wojo will more than likely finish this season having won 105-110 games in years 2-6 would be enough if there had been a NCAA tourney win or two sprinkled in. It is enough to keep his seat from warming up, no matter how much wailing and gnashing of teeth goes on. But until he wins a couple tourney games, or gets a team to far out perform its perceived potential, there are going to be those who are going to pound their fists.
Big opportunity this year. With what left, and the string of injuries, if MU has a record similar to last year and actually wins a tourney game, a whole lot of people are either going to have to be quiet, change their opinion, or start looking for other things to complain about.
Yep.
As Scoopers go, I am relatively bullish on Wojo. Not as much as I was before Hausershima, but still bullish nonetheless. I think he has improved as a coach, I don't want him to be fired, I think he can still build a program we'll be proud of long-term.
With that as my backdrop, I say only somebody with questionable basketball knowledge would suggest or imply in any way that Wojo is the same level of coach that Buzz is.
Buzz fell into a good situation at Marquette, and he made it better; one could even argue considerably better. He also went into a basketball wasteland and quickly made it a team to be reckoned with in the ACC. And I wouldn't bet against him having big success at TAMU, either.
If Buzz only won a little at MU after having inherited the Amigos, it would be one thing. But he won big at MU, even after the Amigos were long gone, and he then won big again at Va Tech -- their best success in school history -- despite inheriting crap that was worse than what he left behind at MU for Wojo.
It's silliness -- and/or abject hatred for Buzz -- to suggest otherwise. Facts are our friends.
That doesn't mean Wojo is destined to leave MU without having taken us where Buzz did. I think the best chapters of his Marquette book are still to be written.
As for your last paragraph, tower, I doubt that even a S16 run would change the NoJos' minds about Wojo. When we were going 20-2 over 3 months last year, few of them actually thought he was proving himself to be even a decent coach, or they just avoided Scoop all together because they were much happier when they could be miserable. The losses to Creighton and Providence got 'em all scurrying back to Scoop.
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Yep.
As Scoopers go, I am relatively bullish on Wojo. Not as much as I was before Hausershima, but still bullish nonetheless. I think he has improved as a coach, I don't want him to be fired, I think he can still build a program we'll be proud of long-term.
With that as my backdrop, I say only somebody with questionable basketball knowledge would suggest or imply in any way that Wojo is the same level of coach that Buzz is.
Buzz fell into a good situation at Marquette, and he made it better; one could even argue considerably better. He also went into a basketball wasteland and quickly made it a team to be reckoned with in the ACC. And I wouldn't bet against him having big success at TAMU, either.
If Buzz only won a little at MU after having inherited the Amigos, it would be one thing. But he won big at MU, even after the Amigos were long gone, and he then won big again at Va Tech -- their best success in school history -- despite inheriting crap that was worse than what he left behind at MU for Wojo.
It's silliness -- and/or abject hatred for Buzz -- to suggest otherwise. Facts are our friends.
That doesn't mean Wojo is destined to leave MU without having taken us where Buzz did. I think the best chapters of his Marquette book are still to be written.
100% agree on all but the last paragraph.
100% hope that the last paragraph turns out to be true.