It's just one data point - All Projo and Nojo Datapoints

[1SE]

And it is. They all are. But cumulatively those add up to the overall evaluation. My thought here is to keep a running tally of projo and nojo data points, including game and recruiting results and seasons achievements. As determining what counts as a projo or nojo datapoint this list is totally subjective I'm ecumencially inclusive of suggestions to edit.

Projo Data Point	Nojo Data Point
Henry Ellenson Commit 10/09/2014	0 NCAA Wins to date (incl w All-American Markus)
W #23 LSU 11/23/15	L H Depaul 01/20/2016
W H #20 Prov 02/10/2016	No Post Season 2016
W @ #7 Creighton 01/21/2017	Blowout L @ Georgetown (14-18 season) 02/11/2017
W H #1 Nova 01/24/2017	Blowout H L Butler 01/31/2018
NCAA appearance 2017	L @ Depaul (11-20 season) 02/24/2018
Blowout W H #13 Seton Hall 01/09/2018	NIT 2018
W H #12 KState 12/01/2018	Blowout L to St. John's 01/01/2019
W H #12 UW 12/08/2018	H L to St. John's 02/05/2019
Blowout W H #14 Buffalo 12/21/2018	H L Creighton 03/03/2019
NCAA appearance 2019	H L Georgetown 03/09/2019
AP Ranking as high as 10 2019	Blowout L to 12 seed Murry St 03/21/2019 in NCAA
Dawson Garcia Commit 11/21/2020	Hausershima 04/15/2019
H W #10 Nova 01/04/2020	H L Providence 01/07/2020
Coaching All-American Markus	2019 BET Title Collapse
Reinhardt Development	Chartouny Miss
Rowsey Development	Burton Transfer
0 Whiff of Scandal	0 T-25 finishes
Winning BE Season 2019	Losing BE Season 2015
Winning BE Season 2017	Losing BE Season 2016
2 NIT Wins	0 BE Regular Season or Tourney Championships
	Wally Ellenson Imbroglio

[1SE]

I'm sure some people think some things are missing/should be removed. Suggest and I'll edit. The only one I was iffy on including was the 2018 NIT Nojo point. I think sosojos and nojos would see this as a negative - whilst projos see it as neutral (or even positive). I left out Wojo's 1st season because I think only the most hard core nojos hold that mess against him.

Incidentally, these lists balancing in number was completely coincidental - I made each list separately. But I think they are both pretty reasonable and support the conclusion that Wojo has had about equal amounts of good and bad in his tenure - C/C+. But interestingly, there really isn't any major time discrepancy either way - it has been pretty balanced at mediocre. Not sure there is much of a positive trend.

I didn't add any of the 4 star recruiting hits (like Markus) to projo, but I also didn't put any recruiting misses in the nojo category. This seems reasonable to me.   

[mu_hilltopper]

Projo- Coached while Markus became #1 scorer of all time, All-American, etc.  (+ NoJo - To date, no NCAA wins with this unique talent.)

Nojo- Needed one win to seal BE Title in 2019, lost 6 of 7 to close season instead.

[Scoop Snoop]

I'm sure some people think some things are missing/should be removed. Suggest and I'll edit. The only one I was iffy on including was the 2018 NIT Nojo point. I think sosojos and nojos would see this as a negative - whilst projos see it as neutral (or even positive). I left out Wojo's 1st season because I think only the most hard core nojos hold that mess against him.

Incidentally, these lists balancing in number was completely coincidental - I made each list separately. But I think they are both pretty reasonable and support the conclusion that Wojo has had about equal amounts of good and bad in his tenure - C/C+. But interestingly, there really isn't any major time discrepancy either way - it has been pretty balanced at mediocre. Not sure there is much of a positive trend.

I didn't add any of the 4 star recruiting hits (like Markus) to projo, but I also didn't put any recruiting misses in the nojo category. This seems reasonable to me.

Great list in your original post. Fair to the 2 warring sides. The bolded pretty much sums up my opinion. I very much want to be proven wrong.

[skianth16]

I like the thought process here. The lists you shared are a great first stab at it. Some things people like or dislike about Wojo are either more subtle or more of a trend rather than single points in time, though. 

How do you list the overall sub-standard play for bigs this year? Or the long, ugly offensive stretches that have been plaguing this team? Those are definitely on the minds of the Nojos. Even press conferences like last night where he comes across as not the most thoughtful guy are going to confirm existing negative biases.

And then conversely, Wojo has to get some credit for providing a gameplan that has gotten Markus to 40+ more than anyone else in MU history. Development/integration of some key transfers like Reinhardt and Rowsey are big pros in my eyes. Running a clean program also comes up regularly among the Projos as well, and that's something that carries a lot of weight to a lot of fans.

[NickelDimer]

Great start for a list on both sides. One thing I think we can table, at least in the short term is this notion of Wojo’s trajectory that is frequently spewed by projo’s. The evidence of a positive trajectory just flat out isn’t there. His tenure has been much more of a plateau than anything.

[1SE]

Projo- Coached while Markus became #1 scorer of all time, All-American, etc.  (+ NoJo - To date, no NCAA wins with this unique talent.)

Nojo- Needed one win to seal BE Title in 2019, lost 6 of 7 to close season instead.

Yeah - I had thought about Markus - I mean in some ways it was a major recruiting coup and Wojo has also contributed to player development.

I sort of thought the BE collapse by the home losses to creighton and georgetown in that stretch (at a minimum, we should have won ONE of those) - but I've put it up.

[1SE]

I like the thought process here. The lists you shared are a great first stab at it. Some things people like or dislike about Wojo are either more subtle or more of a trend rather than single points in time, though. 

How do you list the overall sub-standard play for bigs this year? Or the long, ugly offensive stretches that have been plaguing this team? Those are definitely on the minds of the Nojos. Even press conferences like last night where he comes across as not the most thoughtful guy are going to confirm existing negative biases.

And then conversely, Wojo has to get some credit for providing a gameplan that has gotten Markus to 40+ more than anyone else in MU history. Development/integration of some key transfers like Reinhardt and Rowsey are big pros in my eyes. Running a clean program also comes up regularly among the Projos as well, and that's something that carries a lot of weight to a lot of fans.

Yeah - I think maybe keep this list to specific "events" rather than longer term trends? Although the "zero-scandal" had crossed my mind - I'll put that up

[1SE]

I guess enough people want to add players that have succeed been disappointments? But let's not comment on every player in Wojo's tenure - only major booms/busts?

[Herman Cain]

NoJo
Mishandling of Deonte Burton

[Eldon]

All good points, but the weighting of them is what matters.

Regarding Burton, a charitable interpretation is that it was a recruiting miss on Wojo's part.

Has Wojo burned all of the Wisconsin recruiting bridges? A genuine question.

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

The issue with the list is that it doesn't address the chronic issues on the court which are the root causes of the problems to begin with.  You're only diagnosing symptoms for Nojos, not specific causes of losses.

-No Patience on Offense (Howard dribbling into double teams)
-Lack of Ball movement
-No consistent offensive system exhibited
-Lack of ball handlers outside of Howard
-Lack of quality post player 
-Huge drop off in talent when Jayce comes on court (mid major/Division 2 player)
-Interior defense is underwhelming and is slaughtered when Theo John fouls out
-Shot selection is questionable
-In game coaching is questionable - not fouling when up by 3 when Providence looked tight at the FT line
-Inconsistent play over 6 years
-Inconsistent recruiting over 6 years
-Lack of depth at multiple positions
-No identity
-Take away Howard and what do you have?
-No system in place
-Wasted Howard's time at MU by never giving him complementary players

[Herman Cain]

Wally Ellenson imbroglio  . Snatched defeat from Jaws of Victory with Ellenson family. 

 

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Wally Ellenson imbroglio  . Snatched defeat from Jaws of Victory with Ellenson family.

How so? Wally wasn't committed to the team and wouldn't have added much if he had been.  Henry was turning pro and was going to add nothing more.  It clearly hasn't hurt recruiting, so in what way was this a defeat?

[Herman Cain]

How so? Wally wasn't committed to the team and wouldn't have added much if he had been.  Henry was turning pro and was going to add nothing more.  It clearly hasn't hurt recruiting, so in what way was this a defeat?

Just adding it to the list of NoJo

There has been plenty of debate on this.

[Dr. Blackheart]

All good points, but the weighting of them is what matters.

Regarding Burton, a charitable interpretation is that it was a recruiting miss on Wojo's part.

Has Wojo burned all of the Wisconsin recruiting bridges? A genuine question.

Burton was a Buzz recruit who played his freshman year for Buzz.

[Mike Deane's Seat Belt]

subtract howard and you have a horizon league team right now.

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

All good points, but the weighting of them is what matters.

Regarding Burton, a charitable interpretation is that it was a recruiting miss on Wojo's part.

Has Wojo burned all of the Wisconsin recruiting bridges? A genuine question.

I doubt Wojo has burned his bridges but it's hard to keep top recruits in state.  See Diamond Stone, Tyler Herro, JP Tokoto.  A shame since there's a lot of in state talent right now.

Funny thing is, if JP Tokoto had gone to Wisconsin instead of UNC, he might have won a National Title.

[CTWarrior]

When determining positive and negative points for a coach, I think wins and losses are the main thing to look at.  I suppose you could count individual recruit successes for players who have not yet arrived on campus as potential ProJo points, but in the end for guys who are here what matters is if what they do translate to team success.

For me, it is simple:

Pro Wojo
2 NCAA tournaments
1 NIT with 2 wins
2 Big East winning records
2 upper division finishes
General positive trend in Big East regular season wins (4, 8, 10, 9, 12)
Clean program (no small thing)

No Wojo
2 postseason misses (though year 1 clearly not something you should blame Wojo for)
2 losing Big East seasons
No BET regular season or tournament championships (or final game appearances)
No Top 25 finishes
0 NCAA wins

To me, the big problem is not the lack of NCAA wins, but rather the lack of big seasons that would normally lead to NCAA wins.  I'm a so-so Jo on the Lenny scale, but I don't think that anyone here would have said when Wojo was hired that the above was what they were expecting or hoping for after five seasons.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Just adding it to the list of NoJo

There has been plenty of debate on this.

You stated that it was "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory."  How did it hurt MU basketball since neither brother was going to add anything at that point and it clearly hasn't hurt long-term recruiting.  How is it a negative data point if it had no negative impact on MU?

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

When determining positive and negative points for a coach, I think wins and losses are the main thing to look at.  I suppose you could count individual recruit successes for players who have not yet arrived on campus as potential ProJo points, but in the end for guys who are here what matters is if what they do translate to team success.

For me, it is simple:

Pro Wojo
2 NCAA tournaments
1 NIT with 2 wins
2 Big East winning records
2 upper division finishes
General positive trend in Big East regular season wins (4, 8, 10, 9, 12)
Clean program (no small thing)

No Wojo
2 postseason misses (though year 1 clearly not something you should blame Wojo for)
2 losing Big East seasons
No BET regular season or tournament championships (or final game appearances)
No Top 25 finishes
0 NCAA wins

To me, the big problem is not the lack of NCAA wins, but rather the lack of big seasons that would normally lead to NCAA wins.  I'm a so-so Jo on the Lenny scale, but I don't think that anyone here would have said when Wojo was hired that the above was what they were expecting or hoping for after five seasons.

That's what the problem is.... most Pro Wojo's view things through these lenses.  You're not looking at the correct flaws in Wojo's coaching so you're not going to be able to diagnose the proper issues. 

[Eldon]

Burton was a Buzz recruit who played his freshman year for Buzz.

Yeah, I know.

I meant that if Deonte wanted to leave (which I don't buy), Wojo failed to "recruit" him to stay.

[1SE]

The issue with the list is that it doesn't address the chronic issues on the court which are the root causes of the problems to begin with.  You're only diagnosing symptoms for Nojos, not specific causes of losses.

-No Patience on Offense (Howard dribbling into double teams)
-Lack of Ball movement
-No consistent offensive system exhibited
-Lack of ball handlers outside of Howard
-Lack of quality post player 
-Huge drop off in talent when Jayce comes on court (mid major/Division 2 player)
-Interior defense is underwhelming and is slaughtered when Theo John fouls out
-Shot selection is questionable
-In game coaching is questionable - not fouling when up by 3 when Providence looked tight at the FT line
-Inconsistent play over 6 years
-Inconsistent recruiting over 6 years
-Lack of depth at multiple positions
-No identity
-Take away Howard and what do you have?
-No system in place
-Wasted Howard's time at MU by never giving him complementary players

Right - these are just lists of objective metrics - but I think some of your points might be able to be included with cited specific advanced stats. I thought about putting Ken-pom AdjD and AdjO end of seasons ranks for some of the datapoint.

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

Right - these are just lists of objective metrics - but I think some of your points might be able to be included with cited specific advanced stats. I thought about putting Ken-pom AdjD and AdjO end of seasons ranks for some of the datapoint.

Ken-pom AdjD and AdjO isn't going to tell you that Markus Howard has the ball in his hands too much.
It's not going to tell you that ball movement is an issue
It won't tell you how the roster has little depth and that Woj's recruiting is thin
Etc, etc, etc .....

When you will you statboys learn that's not how you grade a coach?  Your conclusions leave out so much data when you cite only kenpom. 

[T-Bone]

Provos - one wife, isn't named Stew. (apologies if it's been done, haven't been keeping up on these threads)