Projo Data Point | Nojo Data Point |
Henry Ellenson Commit 10/09/2014 | 0 NCAA Wins to date (incl w All-American Markus) |
W #23 LSU 11/23/15 | L H Depaul 01/20/2016 |
W H #20 Prov 02/10/2016 | No Post Season 2016 |
W @ #7 Creighton 01/21/2017 | Blowout L @ Georgetown (14-18 season) 02/11/2017 |
W H #1 Nova 01/24/2017 | Blowout H L Butler 01/31/2018 |
NCAA appearance 2017 | L @ Depaul (11-20 season) 02/24/2018 |
Blowout W H #13 Seton Hall 01/09/2018 | NIT 2018 |
W H #12 KState 12/01/2018 | Blowout L to St. John's 01/01/2019 |
W H #12 UW 12/08/2018 | H L to St. John's 02/05/2019 |
Blowout W H #14 Buffalo 12/21/2018 | H L Creighton 03/03/2019 |
NCAA appearance 2019 | H L Georgetown 03/09/2019 |
AP Ranking as high as 10 2019 | Blowout L to 12 seed Murry St 03/21/2019 in NCAA |
Dawson Garcia Commit 11/21/2020 | Hausershima 04/15/2019 |
H W #10 Nova 01/04/2020 | H L Providence 01/07/2020 |
Coaching All-American Markus | 2019 BET Title Collapse |
Reinhardt Development | Chartouny Miss |
Rowsey Development | Burton Transfer |
0 Whiff of Scandal | 0 T-25 finishes |
Winning BE Season 2019 | Losing BE Season 2015 |
Winning BE Season 2017 | Losing BE Season 2016 |
2 NIT Wins | 0 BE Regular Season or Tourney Championships |
Wally Ellenson Imbroglio |
I'm sure some people think some things are missing/should be removed. Suggest and I'll edit. The only one I was iffy on including was the 2018 NIT Nojo point. I think sosojos and nojos would see this as a negative - whilst projos see it as neutral (or even positive). I left out Wojo's 1st season because I think only the most hard core nojos hold that mess against him.
Incidentally, these lists balancing in number was completely coincidental - I made each list separately. But I think they are both pretty reasonable and support the conclusion that Wojo has had about equal amounts of good and bad in his tenure - C/C+. But interestingly, there really isn't any major time discrepancy either way - it has been pretty balanced at mediocre. Not sure there is much of a positive trend.
I didn't add any of the 4 star recruiting hits (like Markus) to projo, but I also didn't put any recruiting misses in the nojo category. This seems reasonable to me.
Projo- Coached while Markus became #1 scorer of all time, All-American, etc. (+ NoJo - To date, no NCAA wins with this unique talent.)
Nojo- Needed one win to seal BE Title in 2019, lost 6 of 7 to close season instead.
I like the thought process here. The lists you shared are a great first stab at it. Some things people like or dislike about Wojo are either more subtle or more of a trend rather than single points in time, though.
How do you list the overall sub-standard play for bigs this year? Or the long, ugly offensive stretches that have been plaguing this team? Those are definitely on the minds of the Nojos. Even press conferences like last night where he comes across as not the most thoughtful guy are going to confirm existing negative biases.
And then conversely, Wojo has to get some credit for providing a gameplan that has gotten Markus to 40+ more than anyone else in MU history. Development/integration of some key transfers like Reinhardt and Rowsey are big pros in my eyes. Running a clean program also comes up regularly among the Projos as well, and that's something that carries a lot of weight to a lot of fans.
Wally Ellenson imbroglio . Snatched defeat from Jaws of Victory with Ellenson family.How so? Wally wasn't committed to the team and wouldn't have added much if he had been. Henry was turning pro and was going to add nothing more. It clearly hasn't hurt recruiting, so in what way was this a defeat?
How so? Wally wasn't committed to the team and wouldn't have added much if he had been. Henry was turning pro and was going to add nothing more. It clearly hasn't hurt recruiting, so in what way was this a defeat?Just adding it to the list of NoJo
All good points, but the weighting of them is what matters.
Regarding Burton, a charitable interpretation is that it was a recruiting miss on Wojo's part.
Has Wojo burned all of the Wisconsin recruiting bridges? A genuine question.
All good points, but the weighting of them is what matters.I doubt Wojo has burned his bridges but it's hard to keep top recruits in state. See Diamond Stone, Tyler Herro, JP Tokoto. A shame since there's a lot of in state talent right now.
Regarding Burton, a charitable interpretation is that it was a recruiting miss on Wojo's part.
Has Wojo burned all of the Wisconsin recruiting bridges? A genuine question.
Just adding it to the list of NoJoYou stated that it was "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory." How did it hurt MU basketball since neither brother was going to add anything at that point and it clearly hasn't hurt long-term recruiting. How is it a negative data point if it had no negative impact on MU?
There has been plenty of debate on this.
When determining positive and negative points for a coach, I think wins and losses are the main thing to look at. I suppose you could count individual recruit successes for players who have not yet arrived on campus as potential ProJo points, but in the end for guys who are here what matters is if what they do translate to team success.
For me, it is simple:
Pro Wojo
2 NCAA tournaments
1 NIT with 2 wins
2 Big East winning records
2 upper division finishes
General positive trend in Big East regular season wins (4, 8, 10, 9, 12)
Clean program (no small thing)
No Wojo
2 postseason misses (though year 1 clearly not something you should blame Wojo for)
2 losing Big East seasons
No BET regular season or tournament championships (or final game appearances)
No Top 25 finishes
0 NCAA wins
To me, the big problem is not the lack of NCAA wins, but rather the lack of big seasons that would normally lead to NCAA wins. I'm a so-so Jo on the Lenny scale, but I don't think that anyone here would have said when Wojo was hired that the above was what they were expecting or hoping for after five seasons.
Burton was a Buzz recruit who played his freshman year for Buzz.
The issue with the list is that it doesn't address the chronic issues on the court which are the root causes of the problems to begin with. You're only diagnosing symptoms for Nojos, not specific causes of losses.
-No Patience on Offense (Howard dribbling into double teams)
-Lack of Ball movement
-No consistent offensive system exhibited
-Lack of ball handlers outside of Howard
-Lack of quality post player
-Huge drop off in talent when Jayce comes on court (mid major/Division 2 player)
-Interior defense is underwhelming and is slaughtered when Theo John fouls out
-Shot selection is questionable
-In game coaching is questionable - not fouling when up by 3 when Providence looked tight at the FT line
-Inconsistent play over 6 years
-Inconsistent recruiting over 6 years
-Lack of depth at multiple positions
-No identity
-Take away Howard and what do you have?
-No system in place
-Wasted Howard's time at MU by never giving him complementary players
Right - these are just lists of objective metrics - but I think some of your points might be able to be included with cited specific advanced stats. I thought about putting Ken-pom AdjD and AdjO end of seasons ranks for some of the datapoint.
And it is. They all are. But cumulatively those add up to the overall evaluation. My thought here is to keep a running tally of projo and nojo data points, including game and recruiting results and seasons achievements. As determining what counts as a projo or nojo datapoint this list is totally subjective I'm ecumencially inclusive of suggestions to edit.
Projo Data Point Nojo Data Point Henry Ellenson Commit 10/09/2014 0 NCAA Wins to date (incl w All-American Markus) W #23 LSU 11/23/15 L H Depaul 01/20/2016 W H #20 Prov 02/10/2016 No Post Season 2016 W @ #7 Creighton 01/21/2017 Blowout L @ Georgetown (14-18 season) 02/11/2017 W H #1 Nova 01/24/2017 Blowout H L Butler 01/31/2018 NCAA appearance 2017 L @ Depaul (11-20 season) 02/24/2018 Blowout W H #13 Seton Hall 01/09/2018 NIT 2018 W H #12 KState 12/01/2018 Blowout L to St. John's 01/01/2019 W H #12 UW 12/08/2018 H L to St. John's 02/05/2019 Blowout W H #14 Buffalo 12/21/2018 H L Creighton 03/03/2019 NCAA appearance 2019 H L Georgetown 03/09/2019 AP Ranking as high as 10 2019 Blowout L to 12 seed Murry St 03/21/2019 in NCAA Dawson Garcia Commit 11/21/2020 Hausershima 04/15/2019 H W #10 Nova 01/04/2020 H L Providence 01/07/2020 Coaching All-American Markus 2019 BET Title Collapse Reinhardt Development Chartouny Miss Rowsey Development Burton Transfer 0 Whiff of Scandal 0 T-25 finishes Winning BE Season 2019 Losing BE Season 2015 Winning BE Season 2017 Losing BE Season 2016 2 NIT Wins 0 BE Regular Season or Tourney Championships Wally Ellenson Imbroglio
How is that on Wojo? He did not kick them off the team. They quit!
They quit because Wojo runs a program that doesn't compete well. Wojo ran them off through his own incompetence.
They quit because Wojo runs a program that doesn't compete well. Wojo ran them off through his own incompetence.Doesn’t compete well, but were in the Top 10 in the country until Markus got hurt and the Hausers quit on the team. Makes sense.
Doesn’t compete well, but were in the Top 10 in the country until Markus got hurt and the Hausers quit on the team. Makes sense.
Doesn’t compete well, but were in the Top 10 in the country until Markus got hurt and the Hausers quit on the team. Makes sense.IMO, only Joey quit on the team. I believe Sam had good ORtgs in 6 of the last 7 games.
Doesn’t compete well, but were in the Top 10 in the country until Markus got hurt and the Hausers quit on the team. Makes sense.
Yet, they were going to stay if Markus didn't come back. Hmmmm...
Yep. I don't blame them. They are both skilled offensively, and wanted more opportunities to showcase their skills.
Ultimately the Hausers did not believe Wojo could or would reign Markus in. Markus took the 7th most shots of any college player last year. He's 2nd in the country in % of shots this year.
Tough spot for really all of Wojo, Markus, Sam and Joey to be in. They all had valid reasons for their rationale/feelings on the matter. I do think it is lame AF for those who crap on the Hausers for their decision and suggest they "quit" on the team last year. I love Markus, but I don't think many offensively skilled players would enjoy playing with him.
Top 10 Program.....lolHoly hell are that dumb or is it an act?
Finish your 6 pack and go to bed.
Yep. I don't blame them. They are both skilled offensively, and wanted more opportunities to showcase their skills.
Ultimately the Hausers did not believe Wojo could or would reign Markus in. Markus took the 7th most shots of any college player last year. He's 2nd in the country in % of shots this year.
Tough spot for really all of Wojo, Markus, Sam and Joey to be in. They all had valid reasons for their rationale/feelings on the matter. I do think it is lame AF for those who crap on the Hausers for their decision and suggest they "quit" on the team last year. I love Markus, but I don't think many offensively skilled players would enjoy playing with him.