Markus story from afar

[muwarrior69]

1) Agreed. Obviously.

2) Yes. And even when they don't.

3) Wojo doesn't need to "change," IMHO. He simply needs to keep improving as a coach, as he already has done. Some here have already decided that he has no chance to lead us back to the elite. We'll see; I don't know if he can or can't. I hope all are rooting for him to do so.

With 20/20 hindsight it looks like the Hausers' departure was a blessing in disguise. As Glow mentioned in another thread, if they had stayed we would not have the recruiting class we have now. At the very least they are much better athletes. The program is heading in the right direction.

...and Markus is one special player, no doubt.

[Cheeks]

Wojo's record should be closer to Raymonds, given that both he and Raymonds took over the programs after our best runs, and with the most talent in the cupboard.

Wojo passed on numerous jobs prior to taking MU.  Why did he take the MU job?  I'm going to go out on a crazy limb and say he saw a program with a good base of in-house talent, lots of recent success, great facilities, huge budget, good conference but not the uber-impossible former Big East. 

Wojo hit the jackpot!  It is incredible to me the chicken little expectations thrown around here to justify mediocre performance.  I guess you and his most loyal supporters have low expectations for the MU basketball program, and that of course is your prerogative. 

But hey, he is doing a good job this year, and as I posted above, just wish it didn't take 5 years of training wheels to round into form.

And P.S. - Markus is an incredible player.  Let's hope Markus doesn't leave without an NCAA tournament win...which would be abominable.

Hank's first team was ranked in the top 5, had many players from a national title team that came back and Hank, himself said was more talented than the one who won it all the year before.  He auto started with ridiculous talent and a great record that goes along with it. Wojo inherited a team that didn't even make the NIT. For you to suggest Wojo's record should be the about the same....honestly...is breathtakingly alarming.  It screams one of two things

1) you are incompetent
2) you are so blinded by hatred that all facts to the contrary be damned, your emotions have led you to this decision


At this point, I don't know if it is 1 or 2.

The jobs Wojo turned down were not as good as the one he got.  No different than Crean when he took the MU job, he decided to wait from the previous year.

[Cheeks]

With 20/20 hindsight it looks like the Hausers' departure was a blessing in disguise. As Glow mentioned in another thread, if they had stayed we would not have the recruiting class we have now. At the very least they are much better athletes. The program is heading in the right direction.

...and Markus is one special player, no doubt.

There will be days when it is going to hurt, and the same folks here will let everyone know about.  And days where it will have worked itself out.  They are talented players, wonderful shooters which is hard to replace especially on nights when shots aren't going in. 

End of the day, it is impossible to know what would have happened.  They are gone, some guys have stepped up, great class coming in next year and I know I remain fully onboard.  Others may do as they wish.

[The Sultan]

Wojo's record should be closer to Raymonds, given that both he and Raymonds took over the programs after our best runs, and with the most talent in the cupboard.

Yeah no one agrees with this.  Look at TAMU's post.

[wadesworld]

Wojo's record should be closer to Raymonds, given that both he and Raymonds took over the programs after our best runs, and with the most talent in the cupboard.

Butch Lee, Jerome Whitehead, Bernard Tune, Jim Boylan, Ulice Payne

Duane Wilson, Luke Fischer, JaJuan Johnson, Deonte Burton, Juan Anderson, Steve Taylor, Derrick Wilson

Yes.  That's right folks.  Ners just claimed these two groups are comparable to each other.

L O freaking L!

[Dr. Blackheart]

Butch Lee, Jerome Whitehead, Bernard Toone, Jim Boylan, Ulice Payne

Duane Wilson, Luke Fischer, JaJuan Johnson, Deonte Burton, Juan Anderson, Steve Taylor, Derrick Wilson, and the tragic, Magic Dawson

Yes.  That's right folks.  Ners just claimed these two groups are comparable to each other.

L O freaking L!

FIFY

[Galway Eagle]

Wojo's record should be closer to Raymonds, given that both he and Raymonds took over the programs after our best runs, and with the most talent in the cupboard.

Why do you give Deane a pass for taking over a great core of a Sweet 16 team and leading it to an NIT final?

[Cheeks]

Butch Lee, Jerome Whitehead, Bernard Tune, Jim Boylan, Ulice Payne

Duane Wilson, Luke Fischer, JaJuan Johnson, Deonte Burton, Juan Anderson, Steve Taylor, Derrick Wilson

Yes.  That's right folks.  Ners just claimed these two groups are comparable to each other.

L O freaking L!

Rosenberger, Lee, etc, too.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

JC got a quick hook.  Agreed.   Should have gotten more run.  Looking for an argument that isn't there

I thought he pretty much got the leash that he deserved.  Jamal played really poorly in every phase last year other than rebounding.  If you want to argue that there was a negative reinforcing cycle of early mistakes-->quick hook-->loss of confidence--> early mistakes-->etc. I can buy that, but he seldom showed he deserved more minutes.  Yes, Joey collapsed late in the year, but he was also BE Freshman of the Week 4 times before February, so to me it was unsurprising that he got the longer leash.

Jamal's resurgence is the most surprising storyline to me so far this year and a testament to his perseverance and effort.  I really wouldn't have been surprised to see Jamal transfer to a lesser conference where he could shine a la Teve.

[Small Orange Soda]

With 20/20 hindsight it looks like the Hausers' departure was a blessing in disguise. As Glow mentioned in another thread, if they had stayed we would not have the recruiting class we have now. At the very least they are much better athletes. The program is heading in the right direction.

...and Markus is one special player, no doubt.

We went from being a preseason top 10 team to being unranked (still). We can root for the players we have, not root for the Hausers, and still be honest enough to say this team took a big hit with them leaving.

[Its DJOver]

We went from being a preseason top 10 team to being unranked (still). We can root for the players we have, not root for the Hausers, and still be honest enough to say this team took a big hit with them leaving.

You can't use the week 8 AP poll and compare it to someone's "Way to early" rankings that were released hours after the national championship.  We were "others receiving votes" in the preseason and we're in the same place right now.

[tower912]

If MU still had the Hausers, they would have the same record AND probably be ranked.   Because MU would have been top ten preseason and now somewhere in the teens.   The perception changed and MU did not start as a top 10 team.   If a team starts the preseason outside the top 25, 9-2 keeps you out.   If a team starts inside the top 25, 9-2 will keep you in or just outside.

But MU would have the same record, likely Sacar and Cain would be gone and unknown if Jayce would be here.   But, you know...

[MU82]

Jamal's resurgence is the most surprising storyline to me so far this year and a testament to his perseverance and effort.

Agree, and he has ascended to be probably my second-favorite Warrior this season, behind our first-team All-American.

[MU82]

We went from being a preseason top 10 team to being unranked (still). We can root for the players we have, not root for the Hausers, and still be honest enough to say this team took a big hit with them leaving.

It seriously is too early to know how big the hit was. Assuming we beat Central Arkansas, we will have had almost the exact same non-con showing as a year ago, with two bummer losses but several outstanding victories, in addition to the usual cupcake-a-thon. I thought we would struggle offensively, and we have at times, but I am very pleasantly surprised that we are shooting better from behind the arc so far this season (.419) than we did at this point last year (.388).

And as tower and others have said, we don't know how many good players would have bolted had the Hausers not quit the program.

One of the biggest shames about last year's collapse was that the BEast was down, and the conference title was there for the taking, and we choked it away. (And we did so with the Hausers, as well as Markus, struggling mightily down the stretch.) The league obviously has stepped up significantly this season, so we might actually play better but win less.

For example, beating X and Butler twice each last season was great, but those were comparatively poor X and Butler teams; I would be stunned if we go 4-0 in those games this season. Heck, it won't be easy to go 2-0 vs DePaul, with what we've seen out of them so far.

The biggest "hit" this team took -- IMHO -- is that we really could have used Sam's shooting, all-around solid play and senior basketball savvy. Joey, while a talented offensive player, has been replaced by far superior athletes, especially on the defensive end. And his departure opened the door for Garcia, among others. But sure, I don't know how anybody can seriously say we are better without Sam (unless one is certain that if Sam stayed and Joey left, several other players would have transferred).

As other Scoopers have said, though, Sam ain't walking back in that door, so to constantly pine for him and whine about what we lost without him (not saying you're doing that) ... it might be natural fan behavior but it's meaningless dribble.

[Silent Verbal]

But MU would have the same record, likely Sacar and Cain would be gone and unknown if Jayce would be here.   But, you know...

Now this I agree with.  Those players (and possibly Bailey) stayed because minutes opened up when the Hausers left, not because chemistry was so great or they love Wojo or they "want to be Warriors" or whatever other reason people want to throw out there.

[Uncle Rico]

Markus Howard is fine representative of the University

[Small Orange Soda]

You can't use the week 8 AP poll and compare it to someone's "Way to early" rankings that were released hours after the national championship.  We were "others receiving votes" in the preseason and we're in the same place right now.

Actually, I can. This team's expectations were significantly diminished after they left and remain so.

[GooooMarquette]

Wojo's record should be closer to Raymonds, given that both he and Raymonds took over the programs after our best runs, and with the most talent in the cupboard.

Wow - you have a short memory. Davante and Jamil were the best players in Buzz's last year, and they both graduated. So did Jake Thomas and Chris Otule. Buzz basically left Wojo with guys like Derrick Wilson, Juan Anderson, Deonte Burton and Todd Mayo...and Mayo had one foot out the door.

Hank, on the other hand, inherited a team with the Final Four MOP in Butch Lee, one of our best centers ever in Jerome Whitehead, and other experienced players like Bernard Toone, Jimmy Boylan and Gary Rosenberger.

But yeah - they showed up and had "comparable levels of talent in the cupboard."


Edit: Dang. Missed page 4, so I didn't see that others heart me to it.....

[Its DJOver]

Actually, I can. This team's expectations were significantly diminished after they left and remain so.

I should have phrased it better.  It would be incorrect to say that we were a preseason top 10 team.  We were a preseason "others receiving votes" team, and we are currently a "other receiving votes" team.

[Small Orange Soda]

If MU still had the Hausers, they would have the same record AND probably be ranked.   Because MU would have been top ten preseason and now somewhere in the teens.   The perception changed and MU did not start as a top 10 team.   If a team starts the preseason outside the top 25, 9-2 keeps you out.   If a team starts inside the top 25, 9-2 will keep you in or just outside.

But MU would have the same record, likely Sacar and Cain would be gone and unknown if Jayce would be here.   But, you know...

We went from being a top 10 team to unranked throughout non-conference play. You're speculating, I'm not.

[Its DJOver]

We went from being a top 10 team to unranked throughout non-conference play. You're speculating, I'm not.

You are speculating that we would have been a top 10 pre-season team.  What is a fact is that we were a "others receiving votes" preseason team, and that we are a "others receiving votes" team in the week 8 poll.

[Dr. Blackheart]

We went from being a top 10 team to unranked throughout non-conference play. You're speculating, I'm not.

So a team returning everyone...who lost their last six of seven, two to another BE team who returned their core players, was going to be ranked fifth by adding Koby and Greg from 33 in Pomeroy at season's end? Yet, without the Hausers but with Koby and Greg are just 30th in Pomeroy this year?

Me thinks the "Too Early" ranking was too early. With the Hausers, MU couldn't win just one game to clinch the BE down the stretch...got pushed around by Seton Hall (twice) and got posterized (literally) by Murray State. That's not a Top 5 portfolio.

Besides, if the Hausers returned, likely some of the following wouldn't have: Sacar, Bailey, Cain and Markus.  Top 5 would have been pufft in that scenario too. This is fun.

Here is the reality: After non-conference, MU will have the same number of losses as last season at this time, both blow-outs away from home.

[Cheeks]

It seriously is too early to know how big the hit was. Assuming we beat Central Arkansas, we will have had almost the exact same non-con showing as a year ago, with two bummer losses but several outstanding victories, in addition to the usual cupcake-a-thon. I thought we would struggle offensively, and we have at times, but I am very pleasantly surprised that we are shooting better from behind the arc so far this season (.419) than we did at this point last year (.388).

And as tower and others have said, we don't know how many good players would have bolted had the Hausers not quit the program.

One of the biggest shames about last year's collapse was that the BEast was down, and the conference title was there for the taking, and we choked it away. (And we did so with the Hausers, as well as Markus, struggling mightily down the stretch.) The league obviously has stepped up significantly this season, so we might actually play better but win less.

For example, beating X and Butler twice each last season was great, but those were comparatively poor X and Butler teams; I would be stunned if we go 4-0 in those games this season. Heck, it won't be easy to go 2-0 vs DePaul, with what we've seen out of them so far.

The biggest "hit" this team took -- IMHO -- is that we really could have used Sam's shooting, all-around solid play and senior basketball savvy. Joey, while a talented offensive player, has been replaced by far superior athletes, especially on the defensive end. And his departure opened the door for Garcia, among others. But sure, I don't know how anybody can seriously say we are better without Sam (unless one is certain that if Sam stayed and Joey left, several other players would have transferred).

As other Scoopers have said, though, Sam ain't walking back in that door, so to constantly pine for him and whine about what we lost without him (not saying you're doing that) ... it might be natural fan behavior but it's meaningless dribble.

Very well said.

[Cheeks]

Wow - you have a short memory. Davante and Jamil were the best players in Buzz's last year, and they both graduated. So did Jake Thomas and Chris Otule. Buzz basically left Wojo with guys like Derrick Wilson, Juan Anderson, Deonte Burton and Todd Mayo...and Mayo had one foot out the door.

Hank, on the other hand, inherited a team with the Final Four MOP in Butch Lee, one of our best centers ever in Jerome Whitehead, and other experienced players like Bernard Toone, Jimmy Boylan and Gary Rosenberger.

But yeah - they showed up and had "comparable levels of talent in the cupboard."


Edit: Dang. Missed page 4, so I didn't see that others heart me to it.....

That's ok, he needs to hear it again

[Cheeks]

We went from being a top 10 team to unranked throughout non-conference play. You're speculating, I'm not.

You absolutely are speculating.

We were a top 10 team....EXCEPT....if they had stayed others would not be here.  Thus subtraction.  Either way, there was going to be subtraction.  That rating was based on EVERYONE returning, which was not going to happen.

Impossible to prove, but I suspect Tower is right and we would have the same record.  Maybe we beat Wisconsin...maybe.