Markus story from afar

[BM1090]

You could make that argument.  Deane was a very good bench coach.  But, lets of course take a look at where the program was when K.O., Deane, and Wojo took over.  Who had it the worst?

K.O, Wojo, Deane.

[wadesworld]

I'll hang up and listen...

Given that you've been banned from multiple Marquette basketball forum websites multiple times each, I'll go out on a limb and guess you will not actually hang up and listen.

[MU82]

I'll hang up and listen...


Al McGuire           1964–77    295–80    .787
Hank Raymonds   1977–83   126–50   .716
Rick Majerus   1983–86   56–35   .615
Bob Dukiet   1986–89   39–46   .459
Kevin O'Neill   1989–94   86–62   .581
Mike Deane   1994–99   100–55   .645
Tom Crean   1999–08   190–96   .664
Buzz Williams   2008–14   139–69   .668
Steve Wojo   2014–   97–67   .591

Excellent! I had been looking for a way to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Hank Raymonds was a better college basketball coach than Buzz, Majerus, KO and Crean.

Thanks, Ners!!

[real chili 83]

In before the lock

[brewcity77]

You could make that argument.  Deane was a very good bench coach.  But, lets of course take a look at where the program was when K.O., Deane, and Wojo took over.  Who had it the worst?

Seriously, even Gallagher changed up his act more than you.

[Herman Cain]

Elonsmusk is definitely correct.   Wojo is the worst coach since Dukiet.

Dukiet nearly trainwrecked program
KO saved the program
Deane maintained the program
Crean took program to a level beyond KO
Buzz had sustained success with the program
Wojo has taken the program down a level 

As Bill Parcells used to say, you are what your record says you are. Wojo is mediocre. 

Right now Wojo success level would be completely acceptable at Creighton. The difference is MU has far more resources than Creighton so performance should be better. 

I have consistenlty given Wojo credit for two things. First he has recruited Big East level talent. Second, he has embraced MU basketball history and all that have been a part of it. The offsetting factor is ,in a few years, Wojo will be one of our longer tenured coaches at MU and he will have presided over a sustained degradation of the program from the halycon days of Crean/Buzz

[wadesworld]

Elonsmusk is definitely correct.   Wojo is the worst coach since Dukiet.

Dukiet nearly trainwrecked program
KO saved the program
Deane maintained the program
Crean took program to a level beyond KO
Buzz had sustained success with the program
Wojo has taken the program down a level 

As Bill Parcells used to say, you are what your record says you are. Wojo is mediocre. 

Right now Wojo success level would be completely acceptable at Creighton. The difference is MU has far more resources than Creighton so performance should be better. 

I have consistenlty given Wojo credit for two things. First he has recruited Big East level talent. Second, he has embraced MU basketball history and all that have been a part of it. The offsetting factor is ,in a few years, Wojo will be one of our longer tenured coaches at MU and he will have presided over a sustained degradation of the program from the halycon days of Crean/Buzz

You have great, first hand insight into Wojo’s ability to recruit.

[Cheeks]

I'll hang up and listen...


Al McGuire           1964–77    295–80    .787
Hank Raymonds   1977–83   126–50   .716
Rick Majerus   1983–86   56–35   .615
Bob Dukiet   1986–89   39–46   .459
Kevin O'Neill   1989–94   86–62   .581
Mike Deane   1994–99   100–55   .645
Tom Crean   1999–08   190–96   .664
Buzz Williams   2008–14   139–69   .668
Steve Wojo   2014–   97–67   .591

Also disingenuous

97-67 is .592, not .591.

Second, we are 9-2 this year which brings his record to 106-71 and at .599.

[Pakuni]

Elonsmusk is definitely correct.   Wojo is the worst coach since Dukiet.

Dukiet nearly trainwrecked program
KO saved the program
Deane maintained the program

And that's where you lost your audience.

[Cheeks]

Elonsmusk is definitely correct.   Wojo is the worst coach since Dukiet.

Dukiet nearly trainwrecked program
KO saved the program
Deane maintained the program
Crean took program to a level beyond KO
Buzz had sustained success with the program
Wojo has taken the program down a level 

As Bill Parcells used to say, you are what your record says you are. Wojo is mediocre. 

Right now Wojo success level would be completely acceptable at Creighton. The difference is MU has far more resources than Creighton so performance should be better. 

I have consistenlty given Wojo credit for two things. First he has recruited Big East level talent. Second, he has embraced MU basketball history and all that have been a part of it. The offsetting factor is ,in a few years, Wojo will be one of our longer tenured coaches at MU and he will have presided over a sustained degradation of the program from the halycon days of Crean/Buzz

Herm....there are people here that think you are Ners and folks that think Elonmusk is Ners.  No idea if true.

KO may have "saved" the program, he also couldn't wait to get out and crap the bed everywhere else he went. He would have lasted only a few more years at MU at best...and he knew it.
Deane didn't maintain the program, that's why he was fired
Crean was up and down...his ups were great, his downs were below what they should have been.
Buzz sustained if you pretend his last year didn't exist as well as the first year of Wojo which was with Buzz's disaster lineup.  He brought some great memories and horrible embarrassment, too.  Buzz inherited a program with the three amigos.

[Herman Cain]

Herm....there are people here that think you are Ners and folks that think Elonmusk is Ners.  No idea if true.

KO may have "saved" the program, he also couldn't wait to get out and crap the bed everywhere else he went. He would have lasted only a few more years at MU at best...and he knew it.
Deane didn't maintain the program, that's why he was fired
Crean was up and down...his ups were great, his downs were below what they should have been.
Buzz sustained if you pretend his last year didn't exist as well as the first year of Wojo which was with Buzz's disaster lineup.  He brought some great memories and horrible embarrassment, too.  Buzz inherited a program with the three amigos.

Buzz was a proponent of the theory that  most coaches have a finite life cycle at any given school.  I think that has been the case at MU. Majerus, KO, Deane, Crean and Buzz all did their thing and either left , were asked to leave, given an open door etc. Wojo is unique in MU history in that he has pretty much life tenure as long as Lovell is the boss. So my grievance is that we are going to be subject to sustained mediocrity when the resources are there for better performance.

Just for the record, I think it was a healthy thing Buzz left when he did.

I am in total agreement with Ners as to the first year of Wojo tenure and the facts therein. As time has gone by  the solid post collegiate careers of those first year players have proven the point. 

The only other thing I would say, is at the time Lovell was very new to the job and he made the classic board room decision to go with IBM . Given the choice of Cuonzo and Howland I guess I can't blame him. It is unfortunate for MU that the vacancy came open in between years when good young coaches were available.

Only way to get rid of Wojo is for him to put up a decent record this year and hope he goes to the top of the coaching carousel. I am fairly confident, if he got the right Power 5 deal he would take it in a heart beat. Wojo is no fool and he sees the cushy jobs  Chris Holtman and Chris Mack have and I am sure he wants some of that kind of action if he can get it.

[Small Orange Soda]

Elonsmusk is definitely correct.   Wojo is the worst coach since Dukiet.

Dukiet nearly trainwrecked program
KO saved the program
Deane maintained the program
Crean took program to a level beyond KO
Buzz had sustained success with the program
Wojo has taken the program down a level 

As Bill Parcells used to say, you are what your record says you are. Wojo is mediocre. 

Right now Wojo success level would be completely acceptable at Creighton. The difference is MU has far more resources than Creighton so performance should be better. 

I have consistenlty given Wojo credit for two things. First he has recruited Big East level talent. Second, he has embraced MU basketball history and all that have been a part of it. The offsetting factor is ,in a few years, Wojo will be one of our longer tenured coaches at MU and he will have presided over a sustained degradation of the program from the halycon days of Crean/Buzz

McDermott's tenure at Creighton is a pretty good comparison to Wojo.

[Cheeks]

Buzz was a proponent of the theory that  most coaches have a finite life cycle at any given school.  I think that has been the case at MU. Majerus, KO, Deane, Crean and Buzz all did their thing and either left , were asked to leave, given an open door etc. Wojo is unique in MU history in that he has pretty much life tenure as long as Lovell is the boss. So my grievance is that we are going to be subject to sustained mediocrity when the resources are there for better performance.

Just for the record, I think it was a healthy thing Buzz left when he did.

I am in total agreement with Ners as to the first year of Wojo tenure and the facts therein. As time has gone by  the solid post collegiate careers of those first year players have proven the point. 

The only other thing I would say, is at the time Lovell was very new to the job and he made the classic board room decision to go with IBM . Given the choice of Cuonzo and Howland I guess I can't blame him. It is unfortunate for MU that the vacancy came open in between years when good young coaches were available.

Only way to get rid of Wojo is for him to put up a decent record this year and hope he goes to the top of the coaching carousel. I am fairly confident, if he got the right Power 5 deal he would take it in a heart beat. Wojo is no fool and he sees the cushy jobs  Chris Holtman and Chris Mack have and I am sure he wants some of that kind of action if he can get it.

Post collegiate careers have nothing to do with it.  You are limited under ncaa rules how much time to practice.  When you suddenly do that for a living, of course you get better at it.  I’d argue some of them haven’t exactly had that sterling of careers, others have after getting over their emotional and commitment issues.

He does not have lifetime tenure at MU.  I agree with you if the right gig came along he would totally take it, because we aren’t one of those jobs no matter how much some people pretend it is the 1970’s and think it still is.  Some of those jobs have so many built in advantages you have to listen to them...no question.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I am in total agreement with Ners as to the first year of Wojo tenure and the facts therein. As time has gone by  the solid post collegiate careers of those first year players have proven the point. 

I'll give you Deonte Burton as having a solid post collegiate career....and the passing of his mother led to his transfer shortly after Wojo arrived. The others? Meh. And before you start, I'm well aware of the guys overseas and Dawson being a g-league scrub. It's just not that impressive to me. I'm glad they're making money doing what they love, but those teams are littered with former high major bench players and low major stars.

Name a team that missed the NIT, lost 5/6 of its top players in terms of minutes played, it's coach, and over half it's incoming recruiting class, that made the postseason the following season. Bonus points if the 1/6 player is as bad as Derrick Wilson.

You wont find that team. If you expected Wojo to make the NCAAs in year 1, you were expecting him to do something that hadn't been done before.

If that's not enough, the Big East coaches picked Marquette 8th, are they dumb? KenPom picked Marquette 87th, is he dumb? IIRC, there wasn't a single bracketology that had us in the tournament preseason, are all of the dumb? At a certain point when all of the experts are looking at the same team you are and saying that it is not a tournament team (and then the team doesn't make the tournament), you have to consider the possibility that your talent evaluation is off or agenda driven.

Maybe a great (or dirty) coach could have had the team back in 2 years. Personally, I think a three year rebuild was reasonable given the starting point.

[fjm]

so this is the thread to discuss how much of a steward MarKus is for MU both on and off the court right!? 🥴

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Deane wasn’t a great coach. Sure he could maintain when the talent was there, but recruiting sucked. At the end if his tenure, there was a malaise over the program an the BC was a morgue. Wojo is better than that. Not even a question.

[Uncle Rico]

Markus Howard is an amazing Marquette player and student

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

I finally caught up to reading my latest Marquette Magazine with the Markus story.
Interesting that Jamal Cain and him worked together all summer with Markus helping Jamal to improve his shot and a Jamal helping Markus improve his quick first step.

[Its DJOver]

I finally caught up to reading my latest Marquette Magazine with the Markus story.
Interesting that Jamal Cain and him worked together all summer with Markus helping Jamal to improve his shot and a Jamal helping Markus improve his quick first step.

Seconded.  Having Markus work with players during the off-season is almost like having another shooting coach.  We certainly haven't seen the drop off in shooting ability that some were expecting when Nelson left.

[MU82]

Elonsmusk is definitely correct.

And THAT'S where you lost your audience.

Thanks to TAMU for his logical, fact-filled post, and thanks to Uncle Rico for trying to get this thread back on topic ... even though it is so enlightening to have the Wojo/KO/Deane discussion for the 744th time.

I finally caught up to reading my latest Marquette Magazine with the Markus story.
Interesting that Jamal Cain and him worked together all summer with Markus helping Jamal to improve his shot and a Jamal helping Markus improve his quick first step.

It was a good article, and like you MUFIC, I found that to be extremely interesting.

I can't say I've noticed any fundamental differences in either of those things, but I don't really have the data to analyze it. Would need to look at Jamal's shooting form and Markus' first step both before and after they helped each other.

What I can say is that Markus is having another superb season and that Jamal is having his best year at Marquette, having energized our team in several wins so far. Well done by both.

[dgies9156]

Boy this board is turning nasty quickly, especially during the Christmas season.

A couple of thoughts on the Brothers Hauser (again):

1) They're gone. Period. Unless you are going to fire our coach for a management breakdown, there's nothing more to be done. Period.

2) Will this go on every time Sam has a good game for UVA or the Baby Hauser at MSU? Gosh, I hope not.

3) Look, Wojo probably was more indulgent in the Baby Hauser than he should have been. I'm sure he would agree privately. Had the same problem with Henry. I think he's changed and I hope that as we move forward with Dawson, Oso and the rest of next year's class, we'll see a very different Wojo. One who can lead us to the elite of college basketball again!

It's time we're thankful for what we have, not whining because we don't have the rpesent we think we want!

[MU82]

Boy this board is turning nasty quickly, especially during the Christmas season.

A couple of thoughts on the Brothers Hauser (again):

1) They're gone. Period. Unless you are going to fire our coach for a management breakdown, there's nothing more to be done. Period.

2) Will this go on every time Sam has a good game for UVA or the Baby Hauser at MSU? Gosh, I hope not.

3) Look, Wojo probably was more indulgent in the Baby Hauser than he should have been. I'm sure he would agree privately. Had the same problem with Henry. I think he's changed and I hope that as we move forward with Dawson, Oso and the rest of next year's class, we'll see a very different Wojo. One who can lead us to the elite of college basketball again!

It's time we're thankful for what we have, not whining because we don't have the rpesent we think we want!

1) Agreed. Obviously.

2) Yes. And even when they don't.

3) Wojo doesn't need to "change," IMHO. He simply needs to keep improving as a coach, as he already has done. Some here have already decided that he has no chance to lead us back to the elite. We'll see; I don't know if he can or can't. I hope all are rooting for him to do so.

[Elonsmusk]

Excellent! I had been looking for a way to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Hank Raymonds was a better college basketball coach than Buzz, Majerus, KO and Crean.

Thanks, Ners!!

Wojo's record should be closer to Raymonds, given that both he and Raymonds took over the programs after our best runs, and with the most talent in the cupboard.

Wojo passed on numerous jobs prior to taking MU.  Why did he take the MU job?  I'm going to go out on a crazy limb and say he saw a program with a good base of in-house talent, lots of recent success, great facilities, huge budget, good conference but not the uber-impossible former Big East. 

Wojo hit the jackpot!  It is incredible to me the chicken little expectations thrown around here to justify mediocre performance.  I guess you and his most loyal supporters have low expectations for the MU basketball program, and that of course is your prerogative. 

But hey, he is doing a good job this year, and as I posted above, just wish it didn't take 5 years of training wheels to round into form.

And P.S. - Markus is an incredible player.  Let's hope Markus doesn't leave without an NCAA tournament win...which would be abominable. 

[MU82]

Wojo's record should be closer to Raymonds, given that both he and Raymonds took over the programs after our best runs, and with the most talent in the cupboard.

Wojo passed on numerous jobs prior to taking MU.  Why did he take the MU job?  I'm going to go out on a crazy limb and say he saw a program with a good base of in-house talent, lots of recent success, great facilities, huge budget, good conference but not the uber-impossible former Big East. 

Wojo hit the jackpot!  It is incredible to me the chicken little expectations thrown around here to justify mediocre performance.  I guess you and his most loyal supporters have low expectations for the MU basketball program, and that of course is your prerogative. 

But hey, he is doing a good job this year, and as I posted above, just wish it didn't take 5 years of training wheels to round into form.

And P.S. - Markus is an incredible player.  Let's hope Markus doesn't leave without an NCAA tournament win...which would be abominable.

Outstanding goalpost shifting.

[Cheeks]

I finally caught up to reading my latest Marquette Magazine with the Markus story.
Interesting that Jamal Cain and him worked together all summer with Markus helping Jamal to improve his shot and a Jamal helping Markus improve his quick first step.

+1