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Author Topic: Terrap-le  (Read 8979 times)

TSmith34

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #175 on: December 02, 2019, 10:50:34 AM »
Ed has been the biggest head scratcher to me.  Looks significantly less than what he was at Indiana
This. (Although we know you meant Nebraska).  I'm sure Ed will make nice contributions in a game or two this year as he has done in the past, but the overall results have been underwhelming.  He travels nearly every time he gets the ball in the post.
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Cheeks

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #176 on: December 02, 2019, 11:14:58 AM »
On the development of bigs. I think Wojo has shown the ability to get them from A to B. Luke became a better rebounder and defender each year. Matt went from a benchwarmer to a solid backup C. Theo went from a guy who looks like Tarzan to a guy who defends like Tarzan.

But none of them took the next step,  becoming a 5 that was truly feared in the post on both sides of the post. Could be playstyle, could be they didn't have that high of ceilings, but it would be nice to compliment our guards with a dominate post player.

Ed has been the biggest head scratcher to me.  Looks significantly less than what he was at Indiana

Ed played at Nebraska not Indiana

Most of these guys were 3 star recruits, at some point this elite stride some of you want cannot happen because of who they are ( body type, athleticism, etc). They are what they are.  Did they get better, most did.  Ed looked good against USC, not so good against Maryland.  He’s an up and down player.
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Cheeks

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #177 on: December 02, 2019, 11:18:23 AM »
You think people's memories are going. Maybe you should read your own links. As pointed out, Matt Heldt arrived on campus as a top 100 recruit (rsci #96)What do you think would be a fair ranking in that same class at the conclusion of his senior year? 400? 600? How's that for strides?

I look at what Matt did freshman year through junior year...did he improve or not?

His senior year he was not playing because he was recruited over.  I realize your love affair with the RSCI, but when you get barely 100 it simply means a few “experts” ranked you but not all.  If you don’t think he improved his first three years, no one can help you.  He provided solid minutes his senior year, but he is unathletic, not super strong, he is what he is...a great kid, smart kid, did the best he could with the skills God gave him and he improved.
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Cheeks

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #178 on: December 02, 2019, 11:20:27 AM »
If Matt Heldt really was the 97th best player available that year, it must have been one really, really bad year for recruits. I appreciate how hard he worked, but he never should have averaged more than 10 mpg for a team with serious aspirations, and one could tell that was his ceiling early on.

Exactly
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Cheeks

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #179 on: December 02, 2019, 11:21:11 AM »
Is a player's development, or lack thereof. solely on the head coach?
If so, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on Junior Cadougan (RSCI 47), Erik Williams (RSCI 67) and Jamail Jones (RSCI 74).

Or maybe - and just hear me out for a moment - recruiting rankings aren't the best indicator of a player's potential. And maybe different teenagers have different development curves, and where a kid is at 17 isn't necessarily where he'll be at 21.

Just tossing it out there. Please resume making the exact same arguments you guys have been making for the past 12 months. Looks fun.

Or Dominic James under Buzz...etc.
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Cheeks

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #180 on: December 02, 2019, 11:24:14 AM »
While that's true this year, I'm not really talking about this year. This goes all the way back to Howard fouling out in 7 minutes against #1 Villanova his freshman year. Or the home games against top-10 Xavier and Villanova as a sophomore where we were close and him playing even average would've put us over the top. Or the St. John's games last year.

A couple times a season, often in marquee games, Howard completely lays an egg and we end up losing. I get that it's hard for anyone to be on every night, and there's the "3 games in 4 days" argument, but that didn't seem to hurt Cowan yesterday. That hasn't been a problem for guys like Ponds and Powell against us.

Maybe I don't scrutinize those guys games against other marquee teams, but I feel like it's a given with Markus that 2-3 times per year, we're going to have a big game and he's going to be absent. I love the kid and when he's on there's no one like him, but when he's off it's painful, and it's not a new thing.

Heldt was a fine backup and never became more than that, even when he started. Low usage, solid efficiency, adequate defender, but never became even a fifth scoring option.

Theo also nearly doubled his minutes. He still leans in too much when defending (compare to how straight up Jayce usually is even when he jumps) and hasn't developed any reliable post moves, midrange ability (even 6-10 feet), or the ability to consistently finish with authority. As FBM noted, he takes too long to gather and get up with the ball. He's done that for 3 years now.

Also...using old metrics is a losing argument. Theo's advanced numbers were fairly flat. Assist rate from 3.7 to 4.4%, Offensive/Defensive rebounding from 8.2/15.9 to 11.1/16.2%. His raw numbers went up but as far as his advanced numbers, there was no jump from freshman to sophomore year and could be attributed as much to Matt Heldt NOT improving over 4 years as Theo improving.

IF you think they didn’t improve, fine.  Their minutes increased because they became better players and earned them.  Big jumps? Nope.  And based on who they were, not going to happen.

By the way, look at Luke...had three college coaches including Jesus H himself currently in Texas, did he make huge strides under any of them?  Nope.  Did he improve...yes....but three coaches couldn’t get him to make huge strides under the criteria you are using currently.
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brewcity77

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #181 on: December 02, 2019, 11:48:04 AM »
By the way, look at Luke...had three college coaches including Jesus H himself currently in Texas, did he make huge strides under any of them?  Nope.  Did he improve...yes....but three coaches couldn’t get him to make huge strides under the criteria you are using currently.

So you’re painting me as a Buzz advocate? Maybe you should slow down and take it one post at a time.

Luke didn’t make huge strides. His best defensive year was here in the zone, but offensively he was basically the same guy all three years under Wojo. So you’re proving my point. Thanks for agreeing.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #182 on: December 02, 2019, 12:31:38 PM »
Is a player's development, or lack thereof. solely on the head coach?
If so, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on Junior Cadougan (RSCI 47), Erik Williams (RSCI 67) and Jamail Jones (RSCI 74).

Or maybe - and just hear me out for a moment - recruiting rankings aren't the best indicator of a player's potential. And maybe different teenagers have different development curves, and where a kid is at 17 isn't necessarily where he'll be at 21.

Just tossing it out there. Please resume making the exact same arguments you guys have been making for the past 12 months. Looks fun.

Erik Williams and Jamail Jones clearly didn't develop at Marquette. Maybe they were overrated, maybe they didn't work hard enough, maybe Buzz did a crappy job with them. IDK.

But here's the thing: I didn't post anything preposterous about the imagined "strides" they took at Marquette under Buzz's tutelage. Why? Because it would be BS - Just like citing Matt Heldt's "strides" under Wojo is BS.

Pakuni

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #183 on: December 02, 2019, 12:43:29 PM »
Erik Williams and Jamail Jones clearly didn't develop at Marquette. Maybe they were overrated, maybe they didn't work hard enough, maybe Buzz did a crappy job with them. IDK.

But here's the thing: I didn't post anything preposterous about the imagined "strides" they took at Marquette under Buzz's tutelage. Why? Because it would be BS - Just like citing Matt Heldt's "strides" under Wojo is BS.

Heldt was unquestionably better when he left than when he arrived. I mean, it may be marginally so, but he was better.
We probably could agree that some kids develop better or differently than other kids, irregardless of the all-knowing RSCI. but that wouldn't allow us to bicker and fuss so much.

Eldon

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #184 on: December 02, 2019, 04:02:10 PM »
Markus didn't have an off game. He got shut down.

Turgeon said "I'll let the Bailey kid beat us. I dare him." It wasn't enough.

Wojo on bigs: guys naturally progress as they play more games.

Hence the relevant question is whether the bigs improved beyond what they would have with the mere passage of time.

JakeBarnes

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #185 on: December 02, 2019, 04:12:04 PM »
Markus didn't have an off game. He got shut down.

Turgeon said "I'll let the Bailey kid beat us. I dare him." It wasn't enough.

Wojo on bigs: guys naturally progress as they play more games.

Hence the relevant question is whether the bigs improved beyond what they would have with the mere passage of time.

It was both of those, from my perspective. He was able to find some very clean looks and it appeared that he didn't really have the legs for the game. Most the clearly open 3s he got fell short. Again, it felt a lot like the Old Spice tourney where they team was fatigued.
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Cheeks

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #186 on: December 02, 2019, 06:59:55 PM »
So you’re painting me as a Buzz advocate? Maybe you should slow down and take it one post at a time.

Luke didn’t make huge strides. His best defensive year was here in the zone, but offensively he was basically the same guy all three years under Wojo. So you’re proving my point. Thanks for agreeing.

How am I painting you as a Buzz advocate?  I’m not.  I think we all know who here thinks he (Buzz) walks on water.

That said, I do think Buzz is a good coach as I do Wojo and Crean.  None of them got huge strides out of Luke.  The same would be said of them for Heldt, John, Morrow in my opinion.  Some guys you can improve, but when we say huge strides or big jumps, they just aren’t capable due to limitations.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 07:56:13 PM by Cheeks »
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Elonsmusk

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #187 on: December 02, 2019, 07:50:05 PM »
It was both of those, from my perspective. He was able to find some very clean looks and it appeared that he didn't really have the legs for the game. Most the clearly open 3s he got fell short. Again, it felt a lot like the Old Spice tourney where they team was fatigued.

We must have watched a different game.  As I recall he only had a couple of marginally clean looks.  Most were hotly contested by Wiggins and Morsell who are 6'6" and 6'5". 

I can agree he may have been fatigued, given that he shot 26 and 24 times on back to back nights even with the one day off.  That kind of shot volume, especially for a guy 5'10", takes it out of your legs.

hairy worthen

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #188 on: December 02, 2019, 08:15:39 PM »
We must have watched a different game.  As I recall he only had a couple of marginally clean looks.  Most were hotly contested by Wiggins and Morsell who are 6'6" and 6'5". 

I can agree he may have been fatigued, given that he shot 26 and 24 times on back to back nights even with the one day off.  That kind of shot volume, especially for a guy 5'10", takes it out of your legs.
I dont know. Having tired legs sounds like a weak excuse to me. Maybe if he was 60, but not at 20 with a day of rest. How about giving credit to the defense combined with  an off shooting day.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #189 on: December 02, 2019, 08:31:35 PM »
None of them got huge strides out of Luke.  The same would be said of them for Heldt, John, Morrow in my opinion.

So, none of them (Crean, Buzz, Wojo) got huge strides out of Luke, Heldt, John or Morrow. Really??!! Well, since none of them EVER PLAYED for Buzz and only one of them played (briefly) for Crean - WTF is your point? No need to answer. We all know (other than hearing yourself talk) there was none.

brewcity77

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #190 on: December 02, 2019, 09:01:03 PM »
That said, I do think Buzz is a good coach as I do Wojo and Crean.  None of them got huge strides out of Luke.  The same would be said of them for Heldt, John, Morrow in my opinion.  Some guys you can improve, but when we say huge strides or big jumps, they just aren’t capable due to limitations.

Crean & Buzz had him for a semester. I expect more development from the guy that had him 3 years. Though there's the argument Wojo didn't recruit him...

...but then he did recruit Heldt, John, & Morrow. So if the problem is guys with limitations, why recruit guys who are so limited?

I see tangible development from Howard & Anim. Sam Hauser & Jajuan Johnson both showed improvement as they progressed.

Why haven't we seen that from the bigs, especially at the offensive end, where we are devoid of low post scoring?


Galway Eagle

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #191 on: December 02, 2019, 09:03:45 PM »
Crean & Buzz had him for a semester. I expect more development from the guy that had him 3 years. Though there's the argument Wojo didn't recruit him...

...but then he did recruit Heldt, John, & Morrow. So if the problem is guys with limitations, why recruit guys who are so limited?

I see tangible development from Howard & Anim. Sam Hauser & Jajuan Johnson both showed improvement as they progressed.

Why haven't we seen that from the bigs, especially at the offensive end, where we are devoid of low post scoring?

Did the plumlees or zoubeck develop? Because as I recall Wojo was in charge of bigs
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Pakuni

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #192 on: December 02, 2019, 09:16:14 PM »
Did the plumlees or zoubeck develop? Because as I recall Wojo was in charge of bigs

All three Plumlees played in the NBA, not bad considering only one was ranked in the RSCI top 50.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #193 on: December 02, 2019, 09:44:56 PM »
All three Plumlees played in the NBA, not bad considering only one was ranked in the RSCI top 50.

Really? Had no idea they were that low. Talk about a different era of duke recruiting. Back then K actually had to coach players
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Cheeks

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #194 on: December 02, 2019, 10:19:35 PM »
Crean & Buzz had him for a semester. I expect more development from the guy that had him 3 years. Though there's the argument Wojo didn't recruit him...

...but then he did recruit Heldt, John, & Morrow. So if the problem is guys with limitations, why recruit guys who are so limited?

I see tangible development from Howard & Anim. Sam Hauser & Jajuan Johnson both showed improvement as they progressed.

Why haven't we seen that from the bigs, especially at the offensive end, where we are devoid of low post scoring?

You have to recruit who you can get, especially as a young, unproven coach.  At the end of the day, you need players.

Buzz had him as he sat to use in practice and coach up...did he not?  Had him for 24 games I believe.

”Bob Knight said never to coach brothers, and never coach twins....they will make you crazy.  When one is sad, the other is sad.”

Lennys Tap

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #195 on: December 02, 2019, 10:51:07 PM »


Buzz had him as he sat to use in practice and coach up...did he not?  Had him for 24 games I believe.

Yep. And he made a big initial splash and jump (from his IU numbers) when he became eligible at MU. Unfortunately he never was as good again as he was at the very start...

Marcus92

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #196 on: December 02, 2019, 11:15:29 PM »
11.  I still believe in the upside of this team.  Time to go back to work.

I know Markus is going to have off games. When that happens, we're going to have a tough time winning. But this one wasn't even close. And it doesn't just fall on Markus.

Koby, Theo, Greg, Jayce and Ed combined to shoot 2-9 from 2-point range and 1-7 beyond the arc. Marquette got out-rebounded on both ends. We lost the turnover battle. The defense was porous, especially inside. And Maryland looked like the stronger, more physical team.

I'm not overly concerned about losing to a Top 10 team away from home in a non-conference tournament. I still think MU has plenty of talent on the roster. But it hasn't come together yet.
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brewcity77

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #197 on: December 03, 2019, 06:13:47 AM »
You have to recruit who you can get, especially as a young, unproven coach.  At the end of the day, you need players.

Buzz had him as he sat to use in practice and coach up...did he not?  Had him for 24 games I believe.

Practice only. He had him for zero games. Fischer made his Marquette debut against Arizona State on December 16, 2014. Steve Wojciechowski was the coach of Marquette for that game and all subsequent games Luke played.

Luke was at Indiana with Crean from October (Hoosier Hysteria) until mid-December. So about 2.5 months. Buzz had him from mid-December to mid-March, so about 3 months. Wojo had the rest of his career.

Cheeks

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #198 on: December 03, 2019, 09:33:59 AM »
So, none of them (Crean, Buzz, Wojo) got huge strides out of Luke, Heldt, John or Morrow. Really??!! Well, since none of them EVER PLAYED for Buzz and only one of them played (briefly) for Crean - WTF is your point? No need to answer. We all know (other than hearing yourself talk) there was none.

I’m not sure if you noticed the “.” after Luke.  That’s called a period.  It ends a sentence.  The sentence was about how no one could get huge strides from Heldt, because he was limited despite your RSCi nonsense.   The next sentence was me saying the other three are also not going to make huge strides if I were to guess, because they are also limited.  New sentence.

But I am glad to see the bat signal went off and the chief Buzz fluffer was here to answer the call to defend him, even though the other three guys progress had nothing to do with Buzz, but their own athletic limitations.
”Bob Knight said never to coach brothers, and never coach twins....they will make you crazy.  When one is sad, the other is sad.”

Cheeks

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Re: Terrap-le
« Reply #199 on: December 03, 2019, 09:35:21 AM »
Yep. And he made a big initial splash and jump (from his IU numbers) when he became eligible at MU. Unfortunately he never was as good again as he was at the very start...

Yup, where he was the only real center at MU vs one of three at IU, he made that jump....and the. Nothing.  Thankfully he didn’t regress like DJ did under Buzz.
”Bob Knight said never to coach brothers, and never coach twins....they will make you crazy.  When one is sad, the other is sad.”

 

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