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Author Topic: Pivot (al) Moments  (Read 7622 times)

MUDPT

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #175 on: November 18, 2019, 10:10:14 AM »
https://youtu.be/03JLFqFvtkA

There’s a link to the 94 UK game if anybody wants to debate the triangle and 2.

UW definitely wanted this game yesterday. Multiple players (Reuvers, Wahl and Davison) were playing with a chip on their shoulder. You could see it when they exited the game. I would too, when you get beat the last two years.

Also King pushes off on his ankle breaker. It’s not much, but also not much in that position to make someone lose their balance.

Davison “jalen rose’s” every shooter in his closeouts. It’s cheap and really dirty and then acts like he isn’t doing anything wrong.

f/k/a humanlung

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #176 on: November 18, 2019, 10:40:15 AM »

You want Theo shooting more than the 3-4 shots a game he does now - and has for the past two seasons?  Ed and Jayce who are similar?

We lost our best two interior post up scorers from last year.  Both Sam and Joey were good inside.  Our current bigs are defenders who are going to score 75% of their points off rebounds.

When we have unguarded bigs, even Theo, in the lane after a pick and roll, then yes.  I want them to have more touches. Catch ball, one bounce, dunk.  And it keeps other teams honest, they can't ignore the paint any more so they aren't draped all over the perimeter guys.

CTWarrior

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #177 on: November 18, 2019, 10:43:40 AM »
When we have unguarded bigs, even Theo, in the lane after a pick and roll, then yes.  I want them to have more touches. Catch ball, one bounce, dunk.  And it keeps other teams honest, they can't ignore the paint any more so they aren't draped all over the perimeter guys.
Yup.
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MUBurrow

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #178 on: November 18, 2019, 10:47:11 AM »
I'd have to rewatch the last couple of games, but I suspect that the dearth of inside touches from our bigs is due in part to Bailey spending most of his time on the perimeter.  With only one guy down low and no crossing screens to speak of, its tough to work the ball in with any regularity. Its easier for the post defender to deny, and the perimeter defenders can prevent easy entry passes. I hate to sound like a broken record, but its the kind of thing that can still work when you have crafty mismatch type guys like Sam or Joey operating out of the high post who have a greater variety of ways to demand the ball with their back to the basket.  But you can't exactly feed Theo the same way. The only way the inside guys could have gotten more touches was on the occasional high screen and roll to the basket, which yes, would have been nice - but its not curing the ball movement/inside touches problem.

CTWarrior

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #179 on: November 18, 2019, 10:50:38 AM »
I'd have to rewatch the last couple of games, but I suspect that the dearth of inside touches from our bigs is due in part to Bailey spending most of his time on the perimeter.  With only one guy down low and no crossing screens to speak of, its tough to work the ball in with any regularity. Its easier for the post defender to deny, and the perimeter defenders can prevent easy entry passes. I hate to sound like a broken record, but its the kind of thing that can still work when you have crafty mismatch type guys like Sam or Joey operating out of the high post who have a greater variety of ways to demand the ball with their back to the basket.  But you can't exactly feed Theo the same way. The only way the inside guys could have gotten more touches was on the occasional high screen and roll to the basket, which yes, would have been nice - but its not curing the ball movement/inside touches problem.
Haven't seen enough of Johnson to have an opinion, but Theo has only shown flashes of low post ability.  I was hoping that this season with Anim, Howard, Elliott and McEwen slashing toward the hoop, there'd be plenty of opportunities for our big guys to just catch a pass under the basket and dunk.  So far it seems that those opportunities have been there on occasion, but we haven't made the pass.  Way too early to be certain it will always be this way, but it was especially noticeable yesterday.
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CTWarrior

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #180 on: November 18, 2019, 10:57:02 AM »
CTWarrior

I agree that Koby looks like a player. My point is that I do not believe he is a first or second option on a really good team. He looks like a clear cut second best option on MU and at this moment it does not look like MU is a really good team. Honestly, sometimes I believe some on here (not you) look to argue points for the sake of protecting the program's reputation.

It is like in the Do We Miss the Hausers thread, I cannot believe that anyone can truthfully say they are not missed. While I would not agree anyone on this, but if they said not missed because they were a cancer, that is an opinion. But, to think they are not missed as basketball players seems crazy to me.
I agree with you, but based on what I've seen I think Koby could be the point guard for a top 10 team.  Probably not the 1st or 2nd scoring option like you said.  Futhermore, I've only seen him play 3 games, so my opinion can easily change.  I also agree that we miss the Hausers, especially Sam, a lot, but I'm not going to bring it up anymore because what's the point?
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Calvin:  Nobody thinks I'm a genius.

Ellenson Family Reunion

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #181 on: November 18, 2019, 12:13:44 PM »
I agree with you, but based on what I've seen I think Koby could be the point guard for a top 10 team.  Probably not the 1st or 2nd scoring option like you said.  Futhermore, I've only seen him play 3 games, so my opinion can easily change.  I also agree that we miss the Hausers, especially Sam, a lot, but I'm not going to bring it up anymore because what's the point?

Agreed, I've loved what I've seen from him thus far (first half of Purdue notwithstanding). He can create his own shot and his 3-ball is money, with great arc and a soft landing on the rim. Almost like the prototype combo guard in a Wojo/K offense (one of ideally 2 on the court at the same time).

MUEng92

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #182 on: November 18, 2019, 12:13:45 PM »

Also King pushes off on his ankle breaker. It’s not much, but also not much in that position to make someone lose their balance.


Well, we should get many, many chances to verify your premise because that will be played for years to come.  Ugh.

tower912

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #183 on: November 18, 2019, 12:33:49 PM »
My 7th grader missed the first half due to travel baseball practice.    Started watching the MU game during the second half.   Not with me as I was at work.   Says to me this morning, "It was like you keep telling us at practice, dad.   When you stand still on offense and don't box out on defense, you lose."     

So proud.    Misted up a little bit. 
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skianth16

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #184 on: November 18, 2019, 12:47:28 PM »
Agreed, I've loved what I've seen from him thus far (first half of Purdue notwithstanding). He can create his own shot and his 3-ball is money, with great arc and a soft landing on the rim. Almost like the prototype combo guard in a Wojo/K offense (one of ideally 2 on the court at the same time).

I'm not sure we should be comparing the programs or the coaches right now. Wojo obviously took many learnings from Duke and Coach K, but Marquette isn't going to become Duke 2.0 just because of Wojo's time spent at Duke.

I don't know as much about basketball as many poster here, but from I do know, I don't see a lot of similarities in the programs today. Heck, I don't know that we've seen a ton of similarities in our own program year after year. We seem to be continually evolving based on personnel changes without a strong consistency in team identity. And that's no a knock on the coach or team, just an observation that we have been pretty fluid in recent years.

TAMU Garcia

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #185 on: November 18, 2019, 12:58:06 PM »
Johnny09 is right.  A good coach can neutralize a dominant player on an otherwise inferior team.  Sometimes it's a focus on the player, sometimes on his teammates.

To date, Wojo has demonstrated ZERO ability to adjust (let alone customize) a gameplan to put this kids in a position to win.

Late to the party, but this is another one of things you say is an issue, but I actually think is one of Wojo's strengths.

Yesterday, the clear game plan was to neutralize Nate Reuvers and make their guards beat us. Reuvers went 2/9 yesterday with 1 of the 2 coming in garbage time. The problem was that their guards did beat us by making all of their three pointers when they hadn't been hitting all season.

There have been several times when Wojo has come up with a plan to neutralize the best player on the other team. Sometimes it has worked, other times the other players stepped up to win. Last year's game against Villanova comes to mind. Our defense dominated all of Villanova....except the guy who had scored 0 points in the last four games who decided to go off for 26 against us.

Wojo's initial defensive gameplanning has been a strength the past two seasons. His weakness is adjusting when the unexpected starts happening. His halftime adjustments are solid when the initial gameplan isn't working (see Purdue). But when something unpredictable like all of Wisconsin's guards having good shooting games starts to happen...he stays the course and assumes regression to the mean will occur. Rather than cover Samuels last season, he rolled the dice and said there's no way he keeps hitting those. Sometimes he's right, sometime's not.

Offensively, I agree more with you.
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Mr. Sand-Knit

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #186 on: November 18, 2019, 01:03:27 PM »
What i cant understand is 75% of the time where Markus is not the ball handler he goes n stands in the opposite corner. And the literally stands there the entire possession. Compare that to Stefanivic from Purdue, he was a constant blur of motion during their possesions cutting, curling, screening, coming off multiple screens and in constant motion,  inotherwords being very hard to guard and making it near impossible for his man to even consider helping out on anyone else. 
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Goose

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #187 on: November 18, 2019, 01:06:34 PM »
skianth16

I agree on the program not looking similar year after year and I believe it comes down to recruiting. I have said many times I love Wojo chasing after big recruits, but the problem I have is with with tier two recruits. It seems like Wojo keeps betting on landing the big one, and if that fails, he is now chasing options that may or may not be the right fit. This is a big part of what I do not think Wojo has built an identity for the program.


HowardsWorld

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #188 on: November 18, 2019, 01:18:49 PM »
What i cant understand is 75% of the time where Markus is not the ball handler he goes n stands in the opposite corner. And the literally stands there the entire possession. Compare that to Stefanivic from Purdue, he was a constant blur of motion during their possesions cutting, curling, screening, coming off multiple screens and in constant motion,  inotherwords being very hard to guard and making it near impossible for his man to even consider helping out on anyone else.

I actually made a comment to my buddy when we were at the Purdue game. He literally was in the corner the entire shot clock. Did not even attempt to move.

skianth16

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #189 on: November 18, 2019, 01:30:07 PM »
I actually made a comment to my buddy when we were at the Purdue game. He literally was in the corner the entire shot clock. Did not even attempt to move.

I was saying the same thing yesterday. There's too much waiting for things to happen and not enough making things happen with our offense right now. For being a more athletic team than we have been in prior years, this seems like the opposite of how I'd expect the offense to be run.

mileskishnish72

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #190 on: November 18, 2019, 01:39:33 PM »
Getting the ball inside is like non-masturbatory sex - it requires two people.

The big has to get in a position such that his defender is screened off from the incoming pass, to make himself available, if you will.

The passer has to be able to recognize where the ball has to be delivered and get it to the right spot. Yesterday there was a turnover on such a play (from Sacar, I think) and the commentator pointed out that he threw it to the wrong hand.

Of course, if we can get those two concepts mastered there remains the problem of what the big does then. It profits him little if his screening doesn't get him to a spot where he can have offensive options that are consistent with his game.

AirPunch

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #191 on: November 18, 2019, 02:01:47 PM »
skianth16

I agree on the program not looking similar year after year and I believe it comes down to recruiting. I have said many times I love Wojo chasing after big recruits, but the problem I have is with with tier two recruits. It seems like Wojo keeps betting on landing the big one, and if that fails, he is now chasing options that may or may not be the right fit. This is a big part of what I do not think Wojo has built an identity for the program.

This is a good point. The team is completely different each year and not sure that’s a good thing. For reference (and yes it’s not the be all end all), here are the recruiting rankings of each of the players on this year’s team:

John: 3 star #204
Anim: 3 star #191
Bailey: 4 star #92
McEwen: 3 star #175
Howard: 4 star #68

Elliott: 3 star #224
Cain: 3 star #145
Morrow: 4 star #111
Johnson: 4 star #87
Torrence: 4 star #75
Akanno: 3 star #399

Wojo hasn’t been as creative as Buzz was when it comes to filling in the holes after missing out on a top recruit. If MU is going to have a team full of 3 stars, then I think there needs to be a clear identity of what the system is and getting guys to fit that system better.

Goose

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #192 on: November 18, 2019, 02:15:15 PM »
AirPunch

Spot on. You can win with three stars, but better have a system and know how to coach it. I am pretty sure that I referenced a few years ago a former MU coach that could coach up three stars and compete at pretty high level. Well, MU has his type of players for the most part, just lacking the system and a coach to make it happen.

I told some fellow MU fans yesterday that Rick could take these ten kids and take them to S16 and be tough out. I do not fault the players one bit, but do fault a coach that has yet to create a system that helps guys play better than their HS rankings.

RJax55

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #193 on: November 18, 2019, 02:41:28 PM »
AirPunch

Spot on. You can win with three stars, but better have a system and know how to coach it. I am pretty sure that I referenced a few years ago a former MU coach that could coach up three stars and compete at pretty high level. Well, MU has his type of players for the most part, just lacking the system and a coach to make it happen.

I told some fellow MU fans yesterday that Rick could take these ten kids and take them to S16 and be tough out. I do not fault the players one bit, but do fault a coach that has yet to create a system that helps guys play better than their HS rankings.

Wojo is not that guy. This isn't a knee-jerk reaction over the WI game either. He's never going to be an elite coach when it comes to X & Os (like Rick) or have a system that allows guys to play above their talent/skills (like Bo). The only way he can elevate the program beyond the current reality is to recruit better. The issue of course is that recruiting might be the toughest part of the job (especially to school like MU) and of course it is the most fickle.

I don't get caught up in the recruiting hype too much these days, but this Dawson recruitment does seem like a pivotal moment. He needs to land bigger fish to get better, because his coaching isn't going to do it.

I think your comments on Wojo and MU overall are pretty spot-on.

willie warrior

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #194 on: November 18, 2019, 03:12:22 PM »
Late to the party, but this is another one of things you say is an issue, but I actually think is one of Wojo's strengths.

Yesterday, the clear game plan was to neutralize Nate Reuvers and make their guards beat us. Reuvers went 2/9 yesterday with 1 of the 2 coming in garbage time. The problem was that their guards did beat us by making all of their three pointers when they hadn't been hitting all season.

There have been several times when Wojo has come up with a plan to neutralize the best player on the other team. Sometimes it has worked, other times the other players stepped up to win. Last year's game against Villanova comes to mind. Our defense dominated all of Villanova....except the guy who had scored 0 points in the last four games who decided to go off for 26 against us.

Wojo's initial defensive gameplanning has been a strength the past two seasons. His weakness is adjusting when the unexpected starts happening. His halftime adjustments are solid when the initial gameplan isn't working (see Purdue). But when something unpredictable like all of Wisconsin's guards having good shooting games starts to happen...he stays the course and assumes regression to the mean will occur. Rather than cover Samuels last season, he rolled the dice and said there's no way he keeps hitting those. Sometimes he's right, sometime's not.

Offensively, I agree more with you.
posted like a true 1000% Wojo Kool Aid slurper.

Warrior of Law

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #195 on: November 18, 2019, 03:20:16 PM »
The concept that Wojo is good at recruiting is completely unfounded. But for Howard, any of the other players are not much better than Mike Deane-recruited team. You take Deane-esque talent, combined with average coaching, and have you the 2019-20 team.

When he does get a big-time player (Ellenson, Hauser) they leave after a year, and set the team back a few years.
"You can only protect your liberties in this world by protecting the other man's freedom. You can only be free if I am free."  Clarence Darrow

wadesworld

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #196 on: November 18, 2019, 03:21:15 PM »
The concept that Wojo is good at recruiting is completely unfounded. But for Howard, any of the other players are not much better than Mike Deane-recruited team. You take Deane-esque talent, combined with average coaching, and have you the 2019-20 team.

When he does get a big-time player (Ellenson, Hauser) they leave after a year, and set the team back a few years.

So we are closing the book on the 2019-20 team after 3 games?  Nice.

Warrior of Law

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #197 on: November 18, 2019, 03:29:27 PM »
So we are closing the book on the 2019-20 team after 3 games?  Nice.

Not necessarily, but we should expect a few more 50-48 grinders than 100-92 shoot-outs.
"You can only protect your liberties in this world by protecting the other man's freedom. You can only be free if I am free."  Clarence Darrow

Goose

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #198 on: November 18, 2019, 03:34:16 PM »
I am not shutting the door on the season after three games, simply stating what I hope is obvious to the vast majority of folks on here. The coach has to coach a lot better or mid tier players need to play up a notch or two.

Uncle Rico

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Re: Pivot (al) Moments
« Reply #199 on: November 18, 2019, 04:19:40 PM »
posted like a true 1000% Wojo Kool Aid slurper.

That’s a good point.  I hadn’t thought of it that way. 
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