MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: tower912 on November 17, 2019, 01:56:49 PM

Title: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: tower912 on November 17, 2019, 01:56:49 PM
1.   Dragging your feet will always be a travel.    All 7 times in the first half.   
2.  Poor defensive rebounding.
3.   Poor shooting.
4.   Letting the glue guy tie you into Pritzl's on the floor.   He was tougher than our guards today. 
5.   It looked like Markus was playing to not be accused of being selfish.    He also drove like he wanted the contact call.   It is in Madison.   That call isn't coming that often.   Kept waiting for video game mode.   Didn't happen.   
6.   Sacar, Ed, Brendan.    The team needs more.   I will call it a bad day, because I don't believe in throwing anybody under the bus in November.    But it wasn't good today. 
7.   GE is only going to get better.   I am starting to believe he actually would have started last year.    It sure seems like his return has helped Jamal regain some confidence.
8.   If Theo can't guard Ruevers in space, I don't know how he is going to be part of the two big line up.    Ed, Jayce, or Theo are going to have to be able to guard in space. 
9.  Koby is the second option.    Need a third.   
10. First road game of the year.    Sucks losing to Wisconsin.   
11.   Walking away from scoop now for the rest of the day.     Maybe some Hallmark Christmas movies.    Or maybe a nice working structure fire to work off my frustrations.    Mmmmm, breaking stuff.   

Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on November 17, 2019, 02:00:46 PM
Pretty mediocre team we’ve got here. Will win more than they lose and get something like a nine seed. Markus will go off occasionally. That will be fun. But really they are going to struggle too much to score.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: MUCrew on November 17, 2019, 02:01:32 PM
Ugh. Lame! 
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: HowardsWorld on November 17, 2019, 02:01:44 PM
It is what it is guys. We were not going to win them all. Obviously sucks to lose to Wisconsin and by the margin we did but we move on. I feel that we will win out the remaining non conference games. Team still needs to work out its kinks on offense but Howard had one of those days.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: goldeneagle91114 on November 17, 2019, 02:02:34 PM
Hate to say it. But we really missed the Hausers today.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: PointWarrior on November 17, 2019, 02:03:10 PM
Is that kindle wood accumulating near wojo’s seat?
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: warriors141 on November 17, 2019, 02:04:35 PM
badgers run an offense and we do not.
 
when markus is this bad we will not win

sacar and ed stunk and seemed to have not improved at all. same with bailey, but the previous guys are seniors

lacked toughness today, team is way weaker than buzz's teams

we are not vey good and the product is poor, if this sustains under wojo the Marquette fan base will start getting used to mediocrity
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: whitykj on November 17, 2019, 02:05:02 PM
Is that kindle wood accumulating near wojo’s seat?

Lol no
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: HowardsWorld on November 17, 2019, 02:07:15 PM
It was one game. They will regroup.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Smokin' Jae on November 17, 2019, 02:09:16 PM
UW shot really well in the second half and that’s tough to overcome on the road. Was encouraged by what I saw from Jamal, Greg, and Koby. This team goes as Sacar does and today he was not good.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Warrior of Law on November 17, 2019, 02:10:07 PM
I had low expectations for this season and it only lowered after this disaster. It wasn't just a bad game, but this team has no talent but for MH.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: NickelDimer on November 17, 2019, 02:10:15 PM
Overall I actually like the makeup of this team but I don’t understand Wojo’s gameplan. We had opportunity after opportunity to dump the ball off to a big for an easy bucket and instead kicked it out or forced a tough shot. It’s like our bigs are there to do nothing but set screens on offense. I have the same questions about Wojo the coach that I had his first season.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: GoldenDieners32 on November 17, 2019, 02:10:25 PM
Every game we lose we will all say “we missed the hausers”
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: hairy worthen on November 17, 2019, 02:10:38 PM
badgers run an offense and we do not.
 
when markus is this bad we will not win

sacar and ed stunk and seemed to have not improved at all. same with bailey, but the previous guys are seniors

lacked toughness today, team is way weaker than buzz's teams

we are not vey good and the product is poor, if this sustains under wojo the Marquette fan base will start getting used to mediocrity
The fan base has been used to mediocre for a while now.

I am hoping this game is an aberration, but i am afraid this is what we have this year. Pretty much embarrassed today by an average at best Wisconsin team.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: BM1090 on November 17, 2019, 02:11:21 PM
It happens. Sucks it happened today. Bounce back on Saturday, beat Davidson to get to 4-1 and we're all good.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: CountryRoads on November 17, 2019, 02:11:38 PM
Burn the black jerseys
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: JWags85 on November 17, 2019, 02:12:45 PM
I had low expectations for this season and it only lowered after this disaster. It wasn't just a bad game, but this team has no talent but for MH.

This is wholly untrue. Lots of talent. Koby, Greg, Cain, and Theo are all great players.  The offensive system is a disaster. Sacar had his shot tweaked and it is a mess.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: CountryRoads on November 17, 2019, 02:16:34 PM
This is wholly untrue. Lots of talent. Koby, Greg, Cain, and Theo are all great players.  The offensive system is a disaster. Sacar had his shot tweaked and it is a mess.

That’s a very liberal usage of the word “great.”
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on November 17, 2019, 02:17:21 PM
This is wholly untrue. Lots of talent. Koby, Greg, Cain, and Theo are all great players.  The offensive system is a disaster. Sacar had his shot tweaked and it is a mess.

You have a different definition of great than I do.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: mileskishnish72 on November 17, 2019, 02:18:30 PM
Burn the black jerseys

+1
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Billy Hoyle on November 17, 2019, 02:18:53 PM
UW shot really well in the second half and that’s tough to overcome on the road. Was encouraged by what I saw from Jamal, Greg, and Koby. This team goes as Sacar does and today he was not good.

When you’re getting wide open looks that’s going to happen.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: nyg on November 17, 2019, 02:19:39 PM
Bailey has had the unique opportunity to seize and maintain a starting forward position.  He was not very good for the first 80% of the games last year, but sort of came on at season's end.  This year so far has been a disaster.  He has 3 total points in 3 games and has made one basket.  Hope Wojo discussing with Dawson Garcia and showing him, this position is all yours next year, especially with Anim leaving.

The frontline of Bailey, Theo and Anim had a total of five points today, going 1 for 11.  Combine that with an off day from Markus, going 0 for 11 in second half.  1 for 22.  Ugly and not many wins will occur if production like that continues.



Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: jonny09 on November 17, 2019, 02:20:28 PM
That’s a very liberal usage of the word “great.”

Very liberal use.   Wow
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Goose on November 17, 2019, 02:21:10 PM
There is one high level player and a bunch of role players. The remaining guys are not high level D1 players and the coach does not have the game to coach them up.
This is Wojo’s program and at some point he has to be evaluated on overall team success. I do not see a great of progress in the state of the program.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: BM1090 on November 17, 2019, 02:22:10 PM
There is one high level player and a bunch of role players. The remaining guys are not high level D1 players and the coach does not have the game to coach them up.
This is Wojo’s program and at some point he has to be evaluated on overall team success. I do not see a great of progress in the state of the program.

So much for holding off on judging the team for more games
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: jsglow on November 17, 2019, 02:23:16 PM
When Markus has a bad day, we lose.  And I'm talking more decision making, not missed shots.  Add turnovers and lousy defensive rebounding and the problem compounds.  Regroup.  Kudos to Cain and Koby.  Props where props are due.

Thank God we played an excellent second half against Purdue otherwise the world would be on fire.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: goldeneagle91114 on November 17, 2019, 02:24:02 PM
Every game we lose we will all say “we missed the hausers”

I know that’s how I feel. Wojo was building for this season. We were finally going to have all the right pieces in place and would actually see what kind of coach wojo was/is.

Then $hit hit the fan in feb/March and now we still look like a program at the beginning of a rebuild.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Goose on November 17, 2019, 02:24:14 PM
BM1090

Zero judgement on the season, simply an observation of talent level. Quite possibly a high level coach and system could make something out of the squad. Let’s see if Wojo can coach the team up.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: mileskishnish72 on November 17, 2019, 02:26:53 PM
An awful slow start by BB this year. I know he progressed during the season last year, and the same may happen this year, but for now, the Detroit boys need more run.
We've gone through years being undersized. Now we have a taller team than in recent memory and yet, the offense doesn't run through them at all and they allow too many offensive rebounds.
Is this personnel or system? Wisconsin blocked out way better than we did.  Obviously with a talent like Markus you think outside for offense, but I think we need more from inside.
How does Wisky use ball movement to get guys wide open and we don't seem to be able to do the same? The season is young, there is work to be done. Davidson is no gimmee. Let's learn from this debacle and get ready for the BE.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: CountryRoads on November 17, 2019, 02:27:22 PM
Wojo seems too concerned with “getting old and staying old.” A lot of our veterans today were complete non-factors. Would rather be going after the young talent who can contribute from day one. Too many projects on this roster.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: NickelDimer on November 17, 2019, 02:28:52 PM
An awful slow start by BB this year. I know he progressed during the season last year, and the same may happen this year, but for now, the Detroit boys need more run.
We've gone through years being undersized. Now we have a taller team than in recent memory and yet, the offense doesn't run through them at all and they allow too many offensive rebounds.
Is this personnel or system? Wisconsin blocked out way better than we did.  Obviously with a talent like Markus you think outside for offense, but I think we need more from inside.
How does Wisky use ball movement to get guys wide open and we don't seem to be able to do the same? The season is young, there is work to be done. Davidson is no gimmee. Let's learn from this debacle and get ready for the BE.
3 combined shots from our 3 bigs is a huge problem and it falls on Wojo
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 17, 2019, 02:29:14 PM
Looks like we switched our normal Gavitt Games performance with our normal Badger game performance this season. Sucks but it happens. Win our first two in Orlando and I'm feeling just fine about our chances this season.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: mileskishnish72 on November 17, 2019, 02:29:21 PM


Thank God we played an excellent second half against Purdue otherwise the world would be on fire.
[/quote}

Isn't that the truth.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: dgies9156 on November 17, 2019, 02:31:09 PM
OK, they had a bad game. A bad game that no one, including them, wanted to have.

It's early but some of the trends we saw last year cropped up. Hero ball in the second half was the worst.

This is a game we HAVE to win as the season goes on. They are our equal and we either beat them and show we are better or we lose and convince the world we are mediocre.

Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: wadesworld on November 17, 2019, 02:31:21 PM
So much for holding off on judging the team for more games

Lol.  Right.  When we have success, "too early to make judgements.  I'll hold off."  The very next game when there's adversity, "We have 1 high major player."

Anyone who doesn't consider Koby McEwen to be a high major player doesn't know much about high major basketball.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Goose on November 17, 2019, 02:33:26 PM
Wades

Koby is a nice player, but not high level player. He is not running the point for any top 25 program. High level is guys that can play significant minutes at an elite program. This team has one guy that would play on any team in the country.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: NickelDimer on November 17, 2019, 02:34:19 PM
The talent on this team is not what I see as the problem. In some ways I like the makeup of this team more than last years team.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 17, 2019, 02:34:41 PM
Elliott needs to start and play a lot.   Maybe they are being cautious with the ankle early and I’m ok with that but think by mid December he should get all the minutes he can handle.  Just makes too many high IQ basketball plays and has enough offense to help as a third or fourth scorer.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: PointWarrior on November 17, 2019, 02:35:27 PM
Thank God we played an excellent second half against Purdue otherwise the world would be on fire.



Well out of the 4 halves against quality completion, the 2nd half been way more about Purdue being bad than Marquette being good. 
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on November 17, 2019, 02:35:37 PM
Lol.  Right.  When we have success, "too early to make judgements.  I'll hold off."  The very next game when there's adversity, "We have 1 high major player."

Anyone who doesn't consider Koby McEwen to be a high major player doesn't know much about high major basketball.

100% right and agreeing with Wades makes me feel icky.

Koby is really good.

Sacar is a bum now? 

It sucks to play poorly against a rival. It’s also the 3rd game of the year on the road in a tough environment.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 17, 2019, 02:36:01 PM
Oh and the black Unis looked good.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: MUBurrow on November 17, 2019, 02:37:23 PM
Playing a team with Wisconsin's style is such a good early season experience - sometimes it just sucks that its so loaded in terms of rivalry/importance to the fans. If it were against Iowa or something every year, it would be easier to stomach.

On the one hand, there's a lot of new with this team, and its not realistic that it'll all be figured out by now.  The Hausers will come up a lot, but Wojo is replacing 63 mpg and 17 fga per game.  Against a team that plays like Wisconsin in the third game of the year, it always had the chance to be ugly. I hate it, but any coach could have trouble with that.

What has me starting to trend more pessimistic is that a lot of the same bad habits from the end of last year seem to be holding over. MH was always going to (and should) have extremely high usage. But it cant just be off the dribble. This team is athletic enough with shotmaking and penetrating ability at the 2-4 to get him better, more creative looks. You can be the NPOY of still be part of a structured offense.  For example - these first couple games, Koby seems to have largely cannibalized Sacar's usage on offense. I know Sacar has struggled, but I think its because of the difficulty getting him to co-exist with Koby's skill set. Why? With those three in the game, that offense should be flying around, not stagnating.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: mileskishnish72 on November 17, 2019, 02:40:41 PM
Interesting stats from the box:

Wisconsin 6 players in double figures.
Theo one rebound.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 17, 2019, 02:45:54 PM
Wades

Koby is a nice player, but not high level player. He is not running the point for any top 25 program. High level is guys that can play significant minutes at an elite program. This team has one guy that would play on any team in the country.

If all goes right he’ll be running the point later this year for our top 25 program.  Don’t give up yet Goose.  We’ve lost to Wisconsin before and done some damage later. 
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: willie warrior on November 17, 2019, 02:46:48 PM
Every game we lose we will all say “we missed the hausers”
If that is the case, that mantra will be stated a lot.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: mu_hilltopper on November 17, 2019, 02:48:09 PM
Theo : 2 points
Morrow: 2 points
Jayce: 0 points.

Won't win many games with those numbers.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: GoldenDieners32 on November 17, 2019, 02:48:27 PM
Seems like Jayce will be playing a lot based on his defense
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Uncle Rico on November 17, 2019, 02:48:35 PM
If that is the case, that mantra will be stated a lot.

Big day for you.  Congrats!
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 17, 2019, 02:48:46 PM
Defensive gameplan was clearly to make them shooters and force them to beat us outside the rim. They did that and did it well, held them under 40% inside the arc....but the Badgers found their shot this game and made us pay. That was the difference in the game.

The lack of shooting inside the arc continues to worry me. Adding Koby, getting Greg back, and development from guys like Cain, Sacar, and Bailey was supposed to mean more slashing to compliment Markus' shooting. Hasn't been close to happening so far. Definitely my biggest concern three games into the season.

Three shots for the bigs is not enough. I don't know what they need to do but the coaches got to get the guards to look for the bigs in the offense.

I usually preach patience, but damn, that blown layup by Bailey might have been enough for me to give up hope. I keep hearing that he's tearing it up in practice but wow. Kid needs a lid lifter really badly.

On the other end of the spectrum, Cain took much more of a step forward than I ever expected. If trends continue he could take Bailey's starting spot.

I think Greg will only get better as he gets healthier. Have seen some good things from him early

Think this will be one of the worse games we play all season and one of the best the Badgers get. Reuvers was kept in check most of the game and all 6 of the other players had good shooting games at the same time. Don't think that will happen for them most of the time.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: willie warrior on November 17, 2019, 02:50:01 PM
1.   Dragging your feet will always be a travel.    All 7 times in the first half.   
2.  Poor defensive rebounding.
3.   Poor shooting.
4.   Letting the glue guy tie you into Pritzl's on the floor.   He was tougher than our guards today. 
5.   It looked like Markus was playing to not be accused of being selfish.    He also drove like he wanted the contact call.   It is in Madison.   That call isn't coming that often.   Kept waiting for video game mode.   Didn't happen.   
6.   Sacar, Ed, Brendan.    The team needs more.   I will call it a bad day, because I don't believe in throwing anybody under the bus in November.    But it wasn't good today. 
7.   GE is only going to get better.   I am starting to believe he actually would have started last year.    It sure seems like his return has helped Jamal regain some confidence.
8.   If Theo can't guard Ruevers in space, I don't know how he is going to be part of the two big line up.    Ed, Jayce, or Theo are going to have to be able to guard in space. 
9.  Koby is the second option.    Need a third.   
10. First road game of the year.    Sucks losing to Wisconsin.   
11.   Walking away from scoop now for the rest of the day.     Maybe some Hallmark Christmas movies.    Or maybe a nice working structure f
13. Piss poor coaching.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 17, 2019, 02:55:45 PM
There is one high level player and a bunch of role players. The remaining guys are not high level D1 players and the coach does not have the game to coach them up.
This is Wojo’s program and at some point he has to be evaluated on overall team success. I do not see a great of progress in the state of the program.

+1 on the evaluation part.

I think there's more talent on this team than we have seen so far.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Herman Cain on November 17, 2019, 03:00:03 PM
As pointed out, last year we beat the Badgers and lost to Indiana in an embarrassment.  This year we beat Purdue and lost to the Badgers in an embarrassment. We need to win the next game and then win the  holiday tournament .

Greg is making progress getting healthy. Love how that kid competes .  We need him.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on November 17, 2019, 03:03:02 PM
1.   Dragging your feet will always be a travel.    All 7 times in the first half.   
2.  Poor defensive rebounding.
3.   Poor shooting.
4.   Letting the glue guy tie you into Pritzl's on the floor.   He was tougher than our guards today. 
5.   It looked like Markus was playing to not be accused of being selfish.    He also drove like he wanted the contact call.   It is in Madison.   That call isn't coming that often.   Kept waiting for video game mode.   Didn't happen.   
6.   Sacar, Ed, Brendan.    The team needs more.   I will call it a bad day, because I don't believe in throwing anybody under the bus in November.    But it wasn't good today. 
7.   GE is only going to get better.   I am starting to believe he actually would have started last year.    It sure seems like his return has helped Jamal regain some confidence.
8.   If Theo can't guard Ruevers in space, I don't know how he is going to be part of the two big line up.    Ed, Jayce, or Theo are going to have to be able to guard in space. 
9.  Koby is the second option.    Need a third.   
10. First road game of the year.    Sucks losing to Wisconsin.   
11.   Walking away from scoop now for the rest of the day.     Maybe some Hallmark Christmas movies.    Or maybe a nice working structure f
13. Piss poor coaching.

You’re such a miserable turd.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: WhiteTrash on November 17, 2019, 03:17:00 PM
How does Wisky use ball movement to get guys wide open and we don't seem to be able to do the same?
Simple, coaching.

I'm not giving up on the season or trying to be Wojo hater but that is the answer to your question.

The failure to feed the post was embarrassing. I think MU had a good advantage down low and failed to exploit it.

I feel there is enough evidence in the past 5+ years to declare Wojo a good coach.  I know we all wish he'd be very good or great, but sometimes "you are what your record says you are".
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: willie warrior on November 17, 2019, 03:26:16 PM
Bailey has had the unique opportunity to seize and maintain a starting forward position.  He was not very good for the first 80% of the games last year, but sort of came on at season's end.  This year so far has been a disaster.  He has 3 total points in 3 games and has made one basket.  Hope Wojo discussing with Dawson Garcia and showing him, this position is all yours next year, especially with Anim leaving.

The frontline of Bailey, Theo and Anim had a total of five points today, going 1 for 11.  Combine that with an off day from Markus, going 0 for 11 in second half.  1 for 22.  Ugly and not many wins will occur if production like that continues.
Bailey should get 10-15 minutes of sub time per game. That is on Wojo, as is the last 5 years.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Warrior2008 on November 17, 2019, 03:26:48 PM
Been to a couple games at the Kohl Center, this was obviously the worst in awhile. Couple observations.

1. What is this team’s identity? Is it ball dominant Markus like today and Loyola Maryland or is it a balanced approach like Purdue? I ask this genuinely because I don’t know and I’m not sure Wojo does either.

2. Jamal and Greg need to play more. Brendan needs to play less, a lot less until things start to slow down for him. Sacar will be fine.

3. This team is a poor rebounding team and it comes from our bigs. The three centers had 4 rebounds in 39 minutes. That’s not acceptable. Say what you want, but Sam covered a lot of warts on the boards last year. Gotta be better there if we’re gonna realize this teams potential.

I’m still optimistic about this team and think they can compete at the highest level in the Big East.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: willie warrior on November 17, 2019, 03:28:28 PM
There is one high level player and a bunch of role players. The remaining guys are not high level D1 players and the coach does not have the game to coach them up.
This is Wojo’s program and at some point he has to be evaluated on overall team success. I do not see a great of progress in the state of the program.
But wit, Goose.....where is that huge upward trajectory that many on this board claimed?
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: willie warrior on November 17, 2019, 03:29:59 PM
The fan base has been used to mediocre for a while now.

I am hoping this game is an aberration, but i am afraid this is what we have this year. Pretty much embarrassed today by an average at best Wisconsin team.
Losin to Wisconsin at any time is a disgrace and unacceptable. Wojo is lost.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Daniel on November 17, 2019, 03:30:21 PM
It was a bad game offensively.   Second half, we played poorly on both ends.  We need others to step up to score.  Liked what we saw from Jamal and Greg on both ends.  Will get better.   Koby solid again.  Jayce just learning. Was surprised to see him.  When Brendan steps up on offense, will be big for team.    Symir is a wild card - if he can play like a good freshman, will be a big plus.   

One game.  Hate to lose to them, but time to move on. 
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: muhoops1 on November 17, 2019, 03:30:34 PM
Bailey just can’t seem to figure it out.  He’s painful to watch.  Sucks you in with size and athleticism but just disappoints.  That dunk/layup was just sad.  Feel bad for him.   It a good shooting team outside of Markus so boys need to D up.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: willie warrior on November 17, 2019, 03:31:37 PM
An awful slow start by BB this year. I know he progressed during the season last year, and the same may happen this year, but for now, the Detroit boys need more run.
We've gone through years being undersized. Now we have a taller team than in recent memory and yet, the offense doesn't run through them at all and they allow too many offensive rebounds.
Is this personnel or system? Wisconsin blocked out way better than we did.  Obviously with a talent like Markus you think outside for offense, but I think we need more from inside.
How does Wisky use ball movement to get guys wide open and we don't seem to be able to do the same? The season is young, there is work to be done. Davidson is no gimmee. Let's learn from this debacle and get ready for the BE.
Yeah, Bailey progressed last year just as the team did.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Uncle Rico on November 17, 2019, 03:32:25 PM
Yeah, Bailey progressed last year just as the team did.

Why didn’t you post after the Purdue game?
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: wadesworld on November 17, 2019, 03:32:32 PM
Yeah, Bailey progressed last year just as the team did.

We missed you around here willie.

Good God you’re annoying.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: cheebs09 on November 17, 2019, 03:34:19 PM
I really like what Greg brings to the table. Will be exciting to watch him develop. Jamal is doing some nice things.

For whatever reason, the Badgers had us playing too fast and out of control. The constant travels killed us. We’d get to the lane and be stuck.

Hoping Sacar can get the stroke back on that midrange shot. That was a bit of a weapon last year when the offense would slow down.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: willie warrior on November 17, 2019, 03:35:25 PM
You’re such a miserable turd.
And you sir have a high intellect as evidenced by your constant name calling. Speaking of miserable, your intellect reeks of it.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on November 17, 2019, 03:37:37 PM
And you sir have a high intellect as evidenced by your constant name calling. Speaking of miserable, your intellect reeks of it.

You only show up to bitch. Calling you a miserable turd is polite. Who hurt you?
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: willie warrior on November 17, 2019, 03:37:50 PM
We missed you around here willie.

Good God you’re annoying.
So are your posts and God has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 17, 2019, 03:39:36 PM
Why didn’t you post after the Purdue game?

I had that covered for him.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Uncle Rico on November 17, 2019, 03:40:40 PM
I had that covered for him.

At least you make coherent arguments without the same old complaining and constant negativity
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Pops Sims on November 17, 2019, 03:41:11 PM
Quote


Think this will be one of the worse games we play all season and one of the best the Badgers get. Reuvers was kept in check most of the game and all 6 of the other players had good shooting games at the same time. Don't think that will happen for them most of the time.

UW fan here. I wasn't sure what to expect from either team because it is early in the season. UW will go as far as King and Ford take them. Offensively, without Happ, they should be better. Whether this is "the best the Badgers get" we'll see.

I attended the game with a HS bball coach who said MU had guys open down low throughout the game and didn't take advantage. Your team would be better with some inside scoring. Time will tell whether they develop that.

UW will get better inside with Potter, especially v. B1G opponents. I like UW's upside. You'll have to live with Wojo and whatever he's teaching at least for the remainder of this season. Developing an inside scorer would help your team immeasurably.   
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Uncle Rico on November 17, 2019, 03:43:15 PM
UW fan here. I wasn't sure what to expect from either team because it is early in the season. UW will go as far as King and Ford take them. Offensively, without Happ, they should be better. Whether this is "the best the Badgers get" we'll see.

I attended the game with a HS bball coach who said MU had guys open down low throughout the game and didn't take advantage. Your team would be better with some inside scoring. Time will tell whether they develop that.

UW will get better inside with Potter, especially v. B1G opponents. I like UW's upside. You'll have to live with Wojo and whatever he's teaching at least for the remainder of this season. Developing an inside scorer would help your team immeasurably.   

Micah Potter is a 3-star stiff the media has turned into Lebron
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: GoldenDieners32 on November 17, 2019, 03:55:23 PM
So what’s up with symir not playing?
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 17, 2019, 03:58:41 PM
At least you make coherent arguments without the same old complaining and constant negativity


Thank you.  I appreciate that.

Can I copy and paste your comment on the other thread that I started?   I need it there...  :)
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: DegenerateDish on November 17, 2019, 04:03:16 PM
I’m belaboring other points here, but without Sam Hauser on the team, everyone offensively outside Howard has to slide up a spot as an option. Adding McEwen obviously helps, but the looks Anim got last year were in part to other teams accounting for Howard and both Hauser’s on the outside. It’s hard to replace Sam Hauser’s shooting, and the Hope was collectively between Anim, Bailey, Elliott, Cain you’d get decent progression to make up some of that difference. Quite frankly if those 4 guys don’t produce, MU is toast this year. This isn’t trying to be another “I miss the Hauser’s” post, but the reality is their offensive usage needs to be made up somehow, and today it wasn’t happening.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: jonny09 on November 17, 2019, 04:06:45 PM
What I can’t understand for the life of me is how people on this board refuse to acknowledge where this program has gone under Wojo.  We have massively underachieved and it should be noted and it’s ok to talk about.   It’s simply not ok for this to be the situation in year 6.  Markus is a fine young man and represents the university well.  He has a chance to surpass Troy Bell as the BE all time leading scorer.  However, there is a very real chance that he leaves MU with zero tourney wins.  That just isn’t ok.  And it shouldn’t be ok to anyone else on this board.   
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Cheeks on November 17, 2019, 04:07:04 PM
We lost on the road to a team that has the 8th best home court record since 2000.  Yup, it sucked.

Wojo now 3-3 against UW-Madison

Crean, Buzz, KO all had losing records against Uw - Madison

It’s way way way too early for the pants pissing going on right now.  On to the next game and improvement.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Cheeks on November 17, 2019, 04:07:59 PM
What I can’t understand for the life of me is how people on this board refuse to acknowledge where this program has gone under Wojo.  We have massively underachieved and it should be noted and it’s ok to talk about.   It’s simply not ok for this to be the situation in year 6.  Markus is a fine young man and represents the university well.  He has a chance to surpass Troy Bell as the BE all time leading scorer.  However, there is a very real chance that he leaves MU with zero tourney wins.  That just isn’t ok.  And it shouldn’t be ok to anyone else on this board.

What did you think of Jayce Johnson today and Utah earlier this week?
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: jonny09 on November 17, 2019, 04:11:40 PM
What did you think of Jayce Johnson today and Utah earlier this week?

Utah looked ok.  Caught the second half of that game. Nice win over Minnesota.  Not much to say on Jayce.  Coming off an injury, but he will not be a force on the offensive end.   Just not who he is
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: cheebs09 on November 17, 2019, 04:13:10 PM
Also, we gave UW way too many second opportunities. Too many times we mishandled rebounds that went out of bounds or back to UW. I don’t think it was a lack of effort, so tough to get too frustrated. However, we would get a couple of stops that turned into points for them.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: WhiteTrash on November 17, 2019, 04:15:54 PM
What I can’t understand for the life of me is how people on this board refuse to acknowledge where this program has gone under Wojo.  We have massively underachieved and it should be noted and it’s ok to talk about.   It’s simply not ok for this to be the situation in year 6.  Markus is a fine young man and represents the university well.  He has a chance to surpass Troy Bell as the BE all time leading scorer.  However, there is a very real chance that he leaves MU with zero tourney wins.  That just isn’t ok.  And it shouldn’t be ok to anyone else on this board.
From my reading of this board, no one is happy with Wojo's results on the court (perhaps that's damning in and of of itself). There are many who believe Wojo has the ability to become a better coach and it is worth seeing it through.
Oh, and there are couple of goofballs that think MU could never get a better coach than Wojo so MU fans should just suck it up.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Mutaman on November 17, 2019, 04:16:07 PM
What I can’t understand for the life of me is how people on this board refuse to acknowledge where this program has gone under Wojo.  We have massively underachieved and it should be noted and it’s ok to talk about.   It’s simply not ok for this to be the situation in year 6.  Markus is a fine young man and represents the university well.  He has a chance to surpass Troy Bell as the BE all time leading scorer.  However, there is a very real chance that he leaves MU with zero tourney wins.  That just isn’t ok.  And it shouldn’t be ok to anyone else on this board.


i think its a midwest thing. Don't want to say anything else because i might be accused of being critical and therefore not a real fan.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: BM1090 on November 17, 2019, 04:18:18 PM
What I can’t understand for the life of me is how people on this board refuse to acknowledge where this program has gone under Wojo.  We have massively underachieved and it should be noted and it’s ok to talk about.   It’s simply not ok for this to be the situation in year 6.  Markus is a fine young man and represents the university well.  He has a chance to surpass Troy Bell as the BE all time leading scorer.  However, there is a very real chance that he leaves MU with zero tourney wins.  That just isn’t ok.  And it shouldn’t be ok to anyone else on this board.

Why have we underachieved? We've basically been exactly what Kenpom has predicted us to he the past three years. We certainly haven't overrachieved but I think the talent on this roster the past few years has matched the result.

Win 1 of the 2 tournament games we've played under Wojo and I'd argue we've done just fine. Unfortunately the march success hasn't been there.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Cheeks on November 17, 2019, 04:19:56 PM

Utah looked ok.  Caught the second half of that game. Nice win over Minnesota.  Not much to say on Jayce.  Coming off an injury, but he will not be a force on the offensive end.   Just not who he is

He wasn’t brought here to be an offensive force. 
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: jonny09 on November 17, 2019, 04:20:32 PM
Why have we underachieved? We've basically been exactly what Kenpom has predicted us to he the past three years. We certainly haven't overrachieved but I think the talent on this roster the past few years has matched the result.

Win 1 of the 2 tournament games we've played under Wojo and I'd argue we've done just fine. Unfortunately the march success hasn't been there.

I don’t accept zero tourney wins in almost 6 years.  That to me is underachieving.  Maybe you see it differently. 
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 17, 2019, 04:21:03 PM
I’m belaboring other points here, but without Sam Hauser on the team, everyone offensively outside Howard has to slide up a spot as an option. Adding McEwen obviously helps, but the looks Anim got last year were in part to other teams accounting for Howard and both Hauser’s on the outside. It’s hard to replace Sam Hauser’s shooting, and the Hope was collectively between Anim, Bailey, Elliott, Cain you’d get decent progression to make up some of that difference. Quite frankly if those 4 guys don’t produce, MU is toast this year. This isn’t trying to be another “I miss the Hauser’s” post, but the reality is their offensive usage needs to be made up somehow, and today it wasn’t happening.

MU needs to get the ball into the paint to the bigs.  Sometimes they're wide open but no one makes the pass.  That would do wonders to free up the outside shooting.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: WhiteTrash on November 17, 2019, 04:21:28 PM
Why have we underachieved? We've basically been exactly what Kenpom has predicted us to he the past three years. We certainly haven't overrachieved but I think the talent on this roster the past few years has matched the result.

Win 1 of the 2 tournament games we've played under Wojo and I'd argue we've done just fine. Unfortunately the march success hasn't been there.
I don't follow this logic. Marquette has performed well in the past 5 years?
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 17, 2019, 04:23:11 PM

i think its a midwest thing. Don't want to say anything else because i might be accused of being critical and therefore not a real fan.

Go ahead. I've lived through the experience.

Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on November 17, 2019, 04:25:31 PM
MU needs to get the ball into the paint to the bigs.  Sometimes they're wide open but no one makes the pass.  That would do wonders to free up the outside shooting.

They do need to get them more involved, but these bigs aren’t really great offensive forces.  So unless they command help, it doesn’t matter. And zero chance I help on our bigs if I’m coaching against MU.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: #UnleashSean on November 17, 2019, 04:25:42 PM
6-21, with 2 assists and 4 turnovers... OOOOOOF that is not a good line. Koby looked solid.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: jonny09 on November 17, 2019, 04:26:56 PM
 Not to mention the fact we had our doors blown off in the first round last year.  An absolute disaster.  I remember everyone saying man, Murray State is gonna make a run.  Turns out, they end up getting absolutely destroyed by FSU in the next game.  That game was an absolute embarrassment from the opening tip. 
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: BM1090 on November 17, 2019, 04:29:07 PM
I don't follow this logic. Marquette has performed well in the past 5 years?

I don't think they have performed very well, but I'm speaking relative to talent on the floor. To me they haven't really overachieved or underachieved based on the players they have. It's probably a roster that is 30-40th best and that's largely about how they've performed.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: wadesworld on November 17, 2019, 04:30:12 PM
Not to mention the fact we had our doors blown off in the first round last year.  An absolute disaster.  I remember everyone saying man, Murray State is gonna make a run.  Turns out, they end up getting absolutely destroyed by FSU in the next game.  That game was an absolute embarrassment from the opening tip.

Their best player is doing in the NBA what he did to Joey Hauser.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Uncle Rico on November 17, 2019, 04:30:31 PM
Not to mention the fact we had our doors blown off in the first round last year.  An absolute disaster.  I remember everyone saying man, Murray State is gonna make a run.  Turns out, they end up getting absolutely destroyed by FSU in the next game.  That game was an absolute embarrassment from the opening tip.

Did Marquette lose to Murray State?
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on November 17, 2019, 04:31:29 PM
6-21, with 2 assists and 4 turnovers... OOOOOOF that is not a good line. Koby looked solid.

He most definitely did not.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: WhiteTrash on November 17, 2019, 04:33:01 PM
I don't think they have performed very well, but I'm speaking relative to talent on the floor. To me they haven't really overachieved or underachieved based on the players they have. It's a probably a roster that is 30-40th best and that's largely about how they've performed.
Time for MU to get a new GM to get Wojo better talent?
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: jonny09 on November 17, 2019, 04:33:49 PM
Their best player is doing in the NBA what he did to Joey Hauser.

Great......And he got his ass handed to him by 30 in the 2nd round. 
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Small Orange Soda on November 17, 2019, 04:35:16 PM
Time for MU to get a new GM to get Wojo better talent?

Right, everyone seems to think Wojo's a good recruiter.  What do the results say about his coaching then?
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: wadesworld on November 17, 2019, 04:38:03 PM
Great......And he got his ass handed to him by 30 in the 2nd round.

Means nothing.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: jonny09 on November 17, 2019, 04:39:34 PM
Means nothing.

What it means is the following:  our head coach didn’t have his team prepared to play and he was also incapable of making in game adjustments.  Maybe that means nothing to you.  Congrats on that.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: wadesworld on November 17, 2019, 04:41:17 PM
What it means is the following:  our head coach didn’t have his team prepared to play and he was also incapable of making in game adjustments.  Maybe that means nothing to you.  Congrats on that.

None of what you said has anything to do with what MSU did after their game against Marquette.

But glad to know you feel better about MU’s loss to South Carolina since it’s ever important how teams that beat MU in the Tourney do after that. Final Four for South Carolina. Count that one as a win in the Tourney for Wojo then.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: jonny09 on November 17, 2019, 04:44:13 PM
None of what you said has anything to do with what MSU did after their game against Marquette.

But glad to know you feel better about MU’s loss to South Carolina since it’s ever important how teams that beat MU in the Tourney do after that. Final Four for South Carolina. Count that one as a win in the Tourney for Wojo then.

Right........ You make a lot of sense.  Just like you pointing out what Ja Morant is doing in the NBA????   That has a lot to do with MU’s loss?   Solid argument. 
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: hairy worthen on November 17, 2019, 04:47:36 PM
We lost on the road to a team that has the 8th best home court record since 2000.  Yup, it sucked.

Wojo now 3-3 against UW-Madison

Crean, Buzz, KO all had losing records against Uw - Madison

It’s way way way too early for the pants pissing going on right now.  On to the next game and improvement.
i agree, too early to know, but you are only as good as your last game and that is not good.  Its not that we lost.  but how we lost to an average uw. UW's record at home since 2000 is irrelevant. They had better teams than this one since 2000.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Uncle Rico on November 17, 2019, 04:48:17 PM
Right........ You make a lot of sense.  Just like you pointing out what Ja Morant is doing in the NBA????   That has a lot to do with MU’s loss?   Solid argument.

The Murray State game has nothing to do with today
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: wadesworld on November 17, 2019, 04:48:37 PM
Right........ You make a lot of sense.  Just like you pointing out what Ja Morant is doing in the NBA????   That has a lot to do with MU’s loss?   Solid argument.

Yeah. They had the best player on the court. Not hard to figure out. Has a lot more to do with Marquette’s game against Murray State than what Murray State did against Florida State. Or what South Carolina did against Duke.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: jonny09 on November 17, 2019, 04:51:28 PM
Yeah. They had the best player on the court. Not hard to figure out. Has a lot more to do with Marquette’s game against Murray State than what Murray State did against Florida State. Or what South Carolina did against Duke.

You still don’t get it.   It’s about Wojo.  What is hard to understand?   The man can’t coach.  Lmao.  How hard is that to grasp??  Apparently very.   
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on November 17, 2019, 04:51:47 PM
I usually preach patience, but damn, that blown layup by Bailey might have been enough for me to give up hope. I keep hearing that he's tearing it up in practice but wow. Kid needs a lid lifter really badly.

On the other end of the spectrum, Cain took much more of a step forward than I ever expected. If trends continue he could take Bailey's starting spot.

I think Greg will only get better as he gets healthier. Have seen some good things from him early

Three for three TAMU.

I know Brenden's defense was excellent at the end of last year, but his offense...wow, not what was expected.

Love that Jamal has seem to have taken a step back forward.

And tip of the hat to Tower who was pointing out the GE was a difference maker.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Marcus92 on November 17, 2019, 04:52:57 PM
KenPom predicted both Purdue and Wisconsin as 1-point wins. In other words, they were pick 'em games. Going 1-1 was expected. That said, Marquette played very poorly today. Lots to figure out if we're going to contend for a Big East title.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: connie on November 17, 2019, 04:53:13 PM
"I will not freak out after losing our first road game in a tough venue against a hard to match team."

"I will not freak out after losing our first road game in a tough venue against a hard to match team."

"I will not freak out after losing our first road game in a tough venue against a hard to match team."
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on November 17, 2019, 04:53:36 PM
Losin to Wisconsin at any time is a disgrace and unacceptable. Wojo is lost.
Why do you only show up to whine?
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: TSmith34, Inc. on November 17, 2019, 04:56:14 PM
I had that covered for him.
Ok, that was good.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 17, 2019, 04:59:09 PM
Yeah. They had the best player on the court. Not hard to figure out. Has a lot more to do with Marquette’s game against Murray State than what Murray State did against Florida State. Or what South Carolina did against Duke.

Johnny09 is right.  A good coach can neutralize a dominant player on an otherwise inferior team.  Sometimes it's a focus on the player, sometimes on his teammates.

Kevin O'Neil beat a far superior Kentucky team in the NCAAs by using a defense we had never played before - a triangle and two - that shut down their best player.

Fifteen (or so) years later, Roy Williams (and his superior Kansas team) shut down D. Wade by making Travis Deiner's life miserable in the Final Four.

Two totally different approaches, same result.

To date, Wojo has demonstrated ZERO ability to adjust (let alone customize) a gameplan to put this kids in a position to win. 
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: wadesworld on November 17, 2019, 05:00:29 PM

You still don’t get it.   It’s about Wojo.  What is hard to understand?   The man can’t coach.  Lmao.  How hard is that to grasp??  Apparently very.

Guys who can’t coach typically don’t coach their team to top 5 seeds in the NCAA Tournament.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: jesmu84 on November 17, 2019, 05:02:54 PM
Johnny09 is right.  A good coach can neutralize a dominant player on an otherwise inferior team.  Sometimes it's a focus on the player, sometimes on his teammates.

Kevin O'Neil beat a far superior Kentucky team in the NCAAs by using a defense we had never played before - a triangle and two - that shut down their best player.

Fifteen (or so) years later, Roy Williams (and his superior Kansas team) shut down D. Wade by making Travis Deiner's life miserable in the Final Four.

Two totally different approaches, same result.

To date, Wojo has demonstrated ZERO ability to adjust (let alone customize) a gameplan to put this kids in a position to win.

Wojo beat Ben Simmons and LSU.

So...
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Uncle Rico on November 17, 2019, 05:03:06 PM
Johnny09 is right.  A good coach can neutralize a dominant player on an otherwise inferior team.  Sometimes it's a focus on the player, sometimes on his teammates.

Kevin O'Neil beat a far superior Kentucky team in the NCAAs by using a defense we had never played before - a triangle and two - that shut down their best player.

Fifteen (or so) years later, Roy Williams (and his superior Kansas team) shut down D. Wade by making Travis Deiner's life miserable in the Final Four.

Two totally different approaches, same result.

To date, Wojo has demonstrated ZERO ability to adjust (let alone customize) a gameplan to put this kids in a position to win.

I don’t think they used a triangle and two in that game
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: jonny09 on November 17, 2019, 05:03:16 PM
Guys who can’t coach typically don’t coach their team to top 5 seeds in the NCAA Tournament.

Lol.  Clown. 
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 17, 2019, 05:03:26 PM
Guys who can’t coach typically don’t coach their team to top 5 seeds in the NCAA Tournament.

You are, of course, assuming that the seeding/ranking process is without error.  See: Notre Dame football as a related example.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: wadesworld on November 17, 2019, 05:05:41 PM
Lol.  Clown.

Thank you.

Honest question, why weren’t you crying like this after we beat Purdue Wednesday?

You are, of course, assuming that the seeding/reaming process is without error.  See: Notre Dame football as a related example.

What do you suggest we should’ve been seeded last year?
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 17, 2019, 05:05:56 PM
Wojo beat Ben Simmons and LSU.

So...

And Evanston just beat #1 Kentucky. Doesn't make them favorites for the Tourny.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on November 17, 2019, 05:06:34 PM
I don’t think they used a triangle and two in that game

You are correct. O’Neil bogged them down playing the defense he preached.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: jonny09 on November 17, 2019, 05:07:10 PM
Thank you.

Honest question, why weren’t you crying like this after we beat Purdue Wednesday?

What do you suggest we should’ve been seeded last year?

I was.  Go back and look.  What else would be helpful?
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Small Orange Soda on November 17, 2019, 05:07:59 PM
None of what you said has anything to do with what MSU did after their game against Marquette.

But glad to know you feel better about MU’s loss to South Carolina since it’s ever important how teams that beat MU in the Tourney do after that. Final Four for South Carolina. Count that one as a win in the Tourney for Wojo then.

I think this board needs to figure out what the performance of the team that we lose to in the tournament says about us.  Complaints about the loss to S Carolina were answered with "They made the Final Four!"  Pointing out that Murray State got waxed by FSU was apparently irrelevant.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: WarriorDad on November 17, 2019, 05:08:59 PM
Johnny09 is right.  A good coach can neutralize a dominant player on an otherwise inferior team.  Sometimes it's a focus on the player, sometimes on his teammates.

Kevin O'Neil beat a far superior Kentucky team in the NCAAs by using a defense we had never played before - a triangle and two - that shut down their best player.

Fifteen (or so) years later, Roy Williams (and his superior Kansas team) shut down D. Wade by making Travis Deiner's life miserable in the Final Four.

Two totally different approaches, same result.

To date, Wojo has demonstrated ZERO ability to adjust (let alone customize) a gameplan to put this kids in a position to win.

Kevin O’Neil also lost to Green Bay and some other teams that a good coach should not lose to.  Picking out a game here or there doesn’t prove anything really.  Evansville bested Kentucky the other day in Lexington.  College basketball does that.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: jesmu84 on November 17, 2019, 05:09:39 PM
And Evanston just beat #1 Kentucky. Doesn't make them favorites for the Tourny.

Never said it was.

Your point was a good coach can beat a team with a single dominant player.

Wojo did just that.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Uncle Rico on November 17, 2019, 05:10:20 PM
I think this board needs to figure out what the performance of the team that we lose to in the tournament says about us.  Complaints about the loss to S Carolina were answered with "They made the Final Four!"  Pointing out that Murray State got waxed by FSU was apparently irrelevant.

Neither say much to be honest.  Murray State was a bad matchup.  People don’t like to hear that, but they were.  Personally, the South Carolina loss is more infuriating because that team was garbage heading into the tournament. 
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 17, 2019, 05:20:50 PM
I don’t think they used a triangle and two in that game

After he left for Tennessee, I had a chance meeting with him in an airport (Ohare during the summer a couple years after he was gone).  We starting talking and the conversation turned to that game.  He reminded me that they used that defense.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on November 17, 2019, 05:23:17 PM
After he left for Tennessee, I had a chance meeting with him in an airport (Ohare during the summer a couple years after he was gone).  We starting talking and the conversation turned to that game.  He reminded me that they used that defense.

I talked to him last week. He said he lied to you.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Uncle Rico on November 17, 2019, 05:23:41 PM
After he left for Tennessee, I had a chance meeting with him in an airport (Ohare during the summer a couple years after he was gone).  We starting talking and the conversation turned to that game.  He reminded me that they used that defense.

Interesting.  It’s not mentioned in any game recaps I could find online.  He did mention Lute Olson telling them to run Tony Miller at the bigs pressing them in that game
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: WhiteTrash on November 17, 2019, 05:25:20 PM
Can't evaluate Wojo or any coach on one game or one year.

I think if Wojo gets ten years at MU he has 4-5 NCAA's and one tourney win.

Some here will be good with that, some won't be. He seems to be just satisfying the admin's expectation. I don't know if he'll ever get a serious long term extension. I don't see him ever getting an offer for another P6 job so this maybe the new norm. Just good enough.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: PointWarrior on November 17, 2019, 05:29:12 PM
About right - the Marquette GE’s.  Good Enough for Wojo to keep his job. 

Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 17, 2019, 05:29:19 PM
Interesting.  It’s not mentioned in any game recaps I could find online.  He did mention Lute Olson telling them to run Tony Miller at the bigs pressing them in that game

I met O'Neill after he joined MU and was coaching the team but before he had ever coached a game.  We kept in touch for a little while, so I wasn't a total stranger when I saw him at O'Hare a number of years later.

I suppose he could have lied too me for no apparent reason as pointed out by a certain sphincter opening on this board but I doubt it.  If anything, he was too straight a shooter, not a liar.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Silkk the Shaka on November 17, 2019, 05:30:03 PM
Elliott needs to start and play a lot.   Maybe they are being cautious with the ankle early and I’m ok with that but think by mid December he should get all the minutes he can handle.  Just makes too many high IQ basketball plays and has enough offense to help as a third or fourth scorer.

Yeah I really like Elliott
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on November 17, 2019, 05:30:18 PM
Can't evaluate Wojo or any coach on one game or one year.

I think if Wojo gets ten years at MU he has 4-5 NCAA's and one tourney win.

Some here will be good with that, some won't be. He seems to be just satisfying the admin's expectation. I don't know if he'll ever get a serious long term extension. I don't see him ever getting an offer for another P6 job so this maybe the new norm. Just good enough.

He’s Crean without Wade. Occasionally very good. Often infuriating. Decent recruiter but not usually greater than the sum of its parts.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 17, 2019, 05:31:07 PM
Yeah I really like Elliott

Holy crap!  We agree on something!!!  There is hope in this world, after all...  :)
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Anti-Dentite on November 17, 2019, 05:38:24 PM
He’s Crean without Wade. Occasionally very good. Often infuriating. Decent recruiter but not usually greater than the sum of its parts.
I agree with this analysis.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Pops Sims on November 17, 2019, 05:48:23 PM
The fan base has been used to mediocre for a while now.

I am hoping this game is an aberration, but i am afraid this is what we have this year. Pretty much embarrassed today by an average at best Wisconsin team.

UW is hardly an "average at best team". They have the ability to compete for an upper conference finish in the B1G should they stay healthy   If you consider them that, what does that say about your team? As I UW fan, I am hopeful they will improve throughout the season and build on this game. You should hope your team does the same.

Unfortunately for you, you've put your hopes in a head coach who has (so far) shown he can recruit, and little else. If coaching is defined as getting the most out of your team, your guy has fallen well short. We'll see how your team responds from this loss...good luck the rest of the way in BE play.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: WhiteTrash on November 17, 2019, 05:58:03 PM
UW is hardly an "average at best team". They have the ability to compete for an upper conference finish in the B1G should they stay healthy   If you consider them that, what does that say about your team?
I believe that was his point. What does it say about MU at this point?

From what I saw, Wisconsin is an average P6 team.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: wadesworld on November 17, 2019, 06:00:23 PM
UW is hardly an "average at best team". They have the ability to compete for an upper conference finish in the B1G should they stay healthy   If you consider them that, what does that say about your team? As I UW fan, I am hopeful they will improve throughout the season and build on this game. You should hope your team does the same.

Unfortunately for you, you've put your hopes in a head coach who has (so far) shown he can recruit, and little else. If coaching is defined as getting the most out of your team, your guy has fallen well short. We'll see how your team responds from this loss...good luck the rest of the way in BE play.

Greg Gard has accomplished a lot with his own players.  ::)
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: bilsu on November 17, 2019, 06:05:13 PM
Hate to say it. But we really missed the Hausers today.
Until we lose more than 10 games, I will not missed the Hausers.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: hairy worthen on November 17, 2019, 06:16:55 PM
UW is hardly an "average at best team". They have the ability to compete for an upper conference finish in the B1G should they stay healthy   If you consider them that, what does that say about your team? As I UW fan, I am hopeful they will improve throughout the season and build on this game. You should hope your team does the same.

Unfortunately for you, you've put your hopes in a head coach who has (so far) shown he can recruit, and little else. If coaching is defined as getting the most out of your team, your guy has fallen well short. We'll see how your team responds from this loss...good luck the rest of the way in BE play.
we will see. dont get your hopes up.

 i agree wojo falls short, thats the point. Hopefully this was a bad game and MU improves. Also, dont tell me what i "should" do, go spew your nonesense on Buckeyville and worry about finishing .500 this year.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: IrwinFletcher on November 17, 2019, 06:29:57 PM


3. This team is a poor rebounding team and it comes from our bigs. The three centers had 4 rebounds in 39 minutes. That’s not acceptable. Say what you want, but Sam covered a lot of warts on the boards last year. Gotta be better there if we’re gonna realize this teams potential.

[/quote]

Theo John had 9 and 8 rebounds in the first two games.  Didn’t rebound well today, but also spent some time on the perimeter on D.  He is fine.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on November 17, 2019, 07:08:44 PM
Looks like we switched our normal Gavitt Games performance with our normal Badger game performance this season. Sucks but it happens. Win our first two in Orlando and I'm feeling just fine about our chances this season.

Let's win all our Orlando games. That should be the mentality. All three are winnable.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: GrimmReaper33 on November 17, 2019, 07:45:31 PM
I'll give UW and Gard a little credit, I was somewhat surprised by them today.  I figured our guards would own their's, and Morrow and Theo would dominate the glass.

Their Defense was very good and our bigs did nothing.  They don't have any great players but there are some decent pieces.  Will probably finish top 5 or 6 in the Big 14 and be a tourney team.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: WarriorPride68 on November 17, 2019, 07:47:12 PM
Every game we lose we will all say “we missed the hausers”

(https://i.imgflip.com/3gon0e.jpg)
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: MUEng92 on November 17, 2019, 08:21:59 PM
Hey, it can get worse. ESPN tweeting Sacar's broken ankle defense as "early favorite for crossover of the year". Awesome
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Mutaman on November 17, 2019, 08:28:58 PM
(https://cdn1.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/1200x800/public/images/methode/2018/02/22/a2aaff1e-1775-11e8-ace5-29063da208e4_1280x720_112300.jpg?itok=A9fCOKqe)
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Small Orange Soda on November 17, 2019, 08:29:35 PM
Never said it was.

Your point was a good coach can beat a team with a single dominant player.

Wojo did just that.

(https://media3.giphy.com/media/k49oXgsKbVQ4g/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Warrior of Law on November 17, 2019, 08:47:49 PM
I've always considered myself a Wojo supporter. The reason is because I believed that the program was improving. Sadly, it isn't. MH can only do so much. The rest of the roster is not good. That's his #1 job.  They'll win some games this year, but the departure of the Hausers will haunt Wojo more than anyone thought, and may even cost him his job in the end.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: warriors141 on November 17, 2019, 09:10:46 PM
starting to find out how it feels to be a Cleveland Browns fan
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Class71 on November 17, 2019, 09:37:33 PM
So much for holding off on judging the team for more games

I think we should hold off for another 6 years. Once Wojo gets his legs under him watch out.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Mutaman on November 17, 2019, 09:39:27 PM
starting to find out how it feels to be a Cleveland Browns fan

Better example is the Angels- They spend as much money on the team as anyone, have one great player, and are mediocre year after year. They haven't won a post season game in a long long time either.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Galway Eagle on November 18, 2019, 06:45:58 AM
Reminds me of the Bucks toiling away in 7-8 seed territory consistently for years between Ray Allen getting them to the semi finals and Giannis' coming out party.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: CTWarrior on November 18, 2019, 07:06:25 AM
There is one high level player and a bunch of role players. The remaining guys are not high level D1 players and the coach does not have the game to coach them up.
This is Wojo’s program and at some point he has to be evaluated on overall team success. I do not see a great of progress in the state of the program.
Koby appears to be a high level player to me. 

Who knows about our bigs?  Twice in his short time in the game, Jayce rolled to the hoop uncontested and the driver instead went 1 on 2 to put up a circus shot (neither was Markus and once Elliott made the circus shot and got fouled to boot.)  Hard to score on the interior if you never look to get them the ball.  Also, I saw Greg Elliott do the Sam Hauser throw his hands up in the "I give up" pose when he was wide open on the wing and Markus chose to go the other way and attempt to jack up an off balance 3 while double-covered.  I would just love to see us move the ball via the pass rather than via the dribble constantly, but I don't think that will happen this year.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: tower912 on November 18, 2019, 07:13:10 AM
Honestly, I knew the game was over when Bailey missed the left handed finger roll instead of just dunking it.

Theo falling over while guarding Davidson iced it.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on November 18, 2019, 07:16:45 AM
Koby is undoubtedly a high major player. Maybe not as a number two scoring option but whatever.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: tower912 on November 18, 2019, 07:51:59 AM
Theo, Jayce, Ed, Brendan, and Sacar combined for 84 minutes, 7 points, 12 rebounds, and 5 turnovers.    Really, unless Markus had gone into 'God mode', what else do you need to know?
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Silkk the Shaka on November 18, 2019, 08:01:37 AM
Honestly, I knew the game was over when Bailey missed the left handed finger roll instead of just dunking it.

Theo falling over while guarding Davidson iced it.

Yeah that reminded me of Morrow's missed dunk as the Murray State game was slipping away. Bad dreams, man. Baaaaaad dreams.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: HowardsWorld on November 18, 2019, 08:22:06 AM
I hate using the term this was their "Super Bowl" but it really was. We beat them the last 2 times including one at their house. Whether or not Wisconsin is a good /decent team they stepped up probably more they most expected. They also wont shoot 50% from 3 again this year. It was a combination of everything lining up.

The thing that concerns me the most is the defense gave up 77 points to them but again they hit the 3's at a ridiculous clip. The next big test is Davidson. If that happens there then we might have an issue but until then I remain optimistic.

I fully expect to be playing Maryland in the champioship game and beating them. Anything less than playing Maryland in that game would in my mind be a disappointment. What we have in Howard is worth the price of admission every game. He had a stinker but the Badgers D was suffocating.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: GrimmReaper33 on November 18, 2019, 08:50:08 AM
I hate using the term this was their "Super Bowl" but it really was. We beat them the last 2 times including one at their house. Whether or not Wisconsin is a good /decent team they stepped up probably more they most expected. They also wont shoot 50% from 3 again this year. It was a combination of everything lining up.

The thing that concerns me the most is the defense gave up 77 points to them but again they hit the 3's at a ridiculous clip. The next big test is Davidson. If that happens there then we might have an issue but until then I remain optimistic.

I fully expect to be playing Maryland in the champioship game and beating them. Anything less than playing Maryland in that game would in my mind be a disappointment. What we have in Howard is worth the price of admission every game. He had a stinker but the Badgers D was suffocating.

I don't understand these takes- from either fanbase.  Whenever one loses it's somehow a diss to the other team that they wanted it more?  I don't get it.  Both teams should want to win, and if the other team wants it more, that's not a good thing.

Also, both teams shot 47% from 3 and UW only had 6 more points from 3 than MU.  The difference in the game was MU getting nothing in the paint and UW keeping MU off the boards.  UW is probably not a great shooting team but they are likely to have other games here and there where they shoot 47% from three.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Silkk the Shaka on November 18, 2019, 08:54:34 AM
I hate using the term this was their "Super Bowl" but it really was. We beat them the last 2 times including one at their house. Whether or not Wisconsin is a good /decent team they stepped up probably more they most expected. They also wont shoot 50% from 3 again this year. It was a combination of everything lining up.

The thing that concerns me the most is the defense gave up 77 points to them but again they hit the 3's at a ridiculous clip. The next big test is Davidson. If that happens there then we might have an issue but until then I remain optimistic.

I fully expect to be playing Maryland in the champioship game and beating them. Anything less than playing Maryland in that game would in my mind be a disappointment. What we have in Howard is worth the price of admission every game. He had a stinker but the Badgers D was suffocating.

Yeah agreed, they contained very well and we didn't make them pay when the ball found an open role player. It made it easier to keep keying in on Markus & Koby's dribble drive action. Guys need to step up and hit the open J's when they present themselves. I think they will, and I think we'll be fine.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: tower912 on November 18, 2019, 08:55:10 AM
Yes.   Yesterday's game was lost in the paint and on the boards.     Pritzl posted up Sacar, called for the ball, got it, made a move, Sacar stood flat footed with his hands straight up.      15 pts, 13 rebounds in 26 minutes for their 6'3 senior glue guy. 
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: skianth16 on November 18, 2019, 08:55:55 AM
Theo, Jayce, Ed, Brendan, and Sacar combined for 84 minutes, 7 points, 12 rebounds, and 5 turnovers.    Really, unless Markus had gone into 'God mode', what else do you need to know?

What's even worse is that we shot well from 3 yesterday too. Imagine how ugly it would have been if we would have shot 30%-35%. It will be a central theme this year, but we really need to find ways to be more than a one man show.

First off, we need more production from our seniors. Sacar and Ed can't keep having so many empty minutes on the floor. I know Sacar is a defense-first guy, but heeds to get to the hoop more often. Sure, he's had some issues converting in the paint before, but adding that element to our offense will change the way teams defend against us. And I think Ed needs a game or two to help build his confidence. He seems too tentative too often to me. I'd really like to see him step up as a leader on the floor.

Jamal and Greg have had some nice moments, but they seem hesitant to make a decision or to pull the trigger on a shot sometimes. When a team has a player with a presence on the floor as big as Markus does, it can be easy for younger role players to look to the superstar more often than not. These guys are both good enough to go get a bucket. They should be encouraged to do that more often.

Last, Wojo did a poor job of playing the right guys yersterday, IMO. Brendan was having as bad a day as we've seen from him, but Wojo kept putting him back out on the floor. That hurt the team. Ed was also struggling to make an impact but still played quite a bit. I know we're going to have limited depth this year, which might limit our lineup options to an extent, but I'd like to see Wojo do a better job of playing the guys who are playing the best each day. As a fan, it's kind of hard to hear that a guy is getting minutes for doing well in practice if it doesn't translate to the games.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: tower912 on November 18, 2019, 09:01:58 AM
He kept starting Joey late last season when Brendan was clearly playing better.     Yesterday, Greg got 26 minutes.    Cain and Bailey both got 19.   It is my recollection that Cain was playing well in the first half, but picked up his second and Bailey had to come back in.    I won't swear to that, though.   There was no good option between Jayce, Theo, and Ed. 
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Goose on November 18, 2019, 09:02:15 AM
CTWarrior

I agree that Koby looks like a player. My point is that I do not believe he is a first or second option on a really good team. He looks like a clear cut second best option on MU and at this moment it does not look like MU is a really good team. Honestly, sometimes I believe some on here (not you) look to argue points for the sake of protecting the program's reputation.

It is like in the Do We Miss the Hausers thread, I cannot believe that anyone can truthfully say they are not missed. While I would not agree anyone on this, but if they said not missed because they were a cancer, that is an opinion. But, to think they are not missed as basketball players seems crazy to me.


Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: brewcity77 on November 18, 2019, 09:06:33 AM
It is like in the Do We Miss the Hausers thread, I cannot believe that anyone can truthfully say they are not missed. While I would not agree anyone on this, but if they said not missed because they were a cancer, that is an opinion. But, to think they are not missed as basketball players seems crazy to me.

There will be games where they are not missed when we are clicking on defense. But when the defense isn't doing the job (like yesterday) and the front court isn't productive (again, like yesterday) they will be very much missed. Sam in particular, who was a solid system defender, good at moving the ball from good to great looks, and excelled at shot selection.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Silkk the Shaka on November 18, 2019, 09:17:22 AM
He kept starting Joey late last season when Brendan was clearly playing better.     Yesterday, Greg got 26 minutes.    Cain and Bailey both got 19.   It is my recollection that Cain was playing well in the first half, but picked up his second and Bailey had to come back in.    I won't swear to that, though.   There was no good option between Jayce, Theo, and Ed.

I keep seeing similar things re: Theo (not picking on you, just seems to be a trend) and I swear I must be going crazy. I've been thrilled with Theo's play this year. His positional defense has been excellent, and he hasn't been picking up those ticky-tack fouls. He was tasked with guarding the reigning B10 player of the week and held him to 0-5 from 2 with 1 rebound. Theo did exactly what I wanted him to do and more.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: GrimmReaper33 on November 18, 2019, 09:19:21 AM
UW hedged & helped aggressively on Howard and we never made them pay.  Never fed Theo or Morrow on a roll to the hoop.  The fact that they aren't threats from the outside also makes it easier for defenses to guard Howard.  That is where the Hausers are really missed.  Could use one of them as a screener for Howard and defenses can no longer aggressively crowd Howard or you leave a deadly shooter wide open on the pop for 3.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on November 18, 2019, 09:21:04 AM
It would be nice of one of the bigs could be a semi-reliable scoring threat.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: HowardsWorld on November 18, 2019, 09:21:12 AM
UW hedged & helped aggressively on Howard and we never made them pay.  Never fed Theo or Morrow on a roll to the hoop.  The fact that they aren't threats from the outside also makes it easier for defenses to guard Howard.  That is where the Hausers are really missed.  Could use one of them as a screener for Howard and defenses can no longer aggressively crowd Howard or you leave a deadly shooter wide open on the pop for 3.

Wisconsin's 26 year old junior was getting passed 2-3 screens and was still able to get to Howard. I give him props for that.  But yes we need bailey or Anim to step up and nail some 3's
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Goose on November 18, 2019, 09:21:24 AM
brewcity

Sam Hauser would have gone down as one of the better four years player in MU history and will be missed every game this season. Joey Hauser likely will be a big time contributor at an elite program beginning next season and will be missed every game this season.

As for our clicking on defense, did you see the team that schooled us in the half court game yesterday? If our "long, athletic" guys cannot shut that offense down, what happens when they play a good team?

For the last two seasons I have been saying this program/Wojo does not have a system in place and many argued with me. Most said that we are a three point shooting, offensive system and we recruited player for that system. So, are we now a defensive system because we are filling in the holes left by the Hausers leaving?
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Mike Deane's Seat Belt on November 18, 2019, 09:35:57 AM
I really dont think Joey is going to do much at an elite program.  He is still working on not traveling to start his move to the hoop.  Sam on the other hand was fantastic and sorely missed.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: hairy worthen on November 18, 2019, 09:42:07 AM
I really dont think Joey is going to do much at an elite program.  He is still working on not traveling to start his move to the hoop.  Sam on the other hand was fantastic and sorely missed.
Joey was a freshman last year. Freshmen do that kind of stuff. Joey will eventually be a great player.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on November 18, 2019, 09:53:12 AM
Joey was a freshman last year. Freshmen do that kind of stuff. Joey will eventually be a great player.


Yeah I know..."the best thing about freshmen is they become sophomores."  But IMO you rarely see huge leaps from players.  You can see signs how a player can improve no doubt, but monumental progress?  It doesn't happen often.

IMO Joey will end up a solid player but not "great."  At best, he'll be MSU's Jamil Wilson.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: MUBurrow on November 18, 2019, 09:54:32 AM
It is like in the Do We Miss the Hausers thread, I cannot believe that anyone can truthfully say they are not missed. While I would not agree anyone on this, but if they said not missed because they were a cancer, that is an opinion. But, to think they are not missed as basketball players seems crazy to me.

I agree that it is crazy to say they aren't/won't be missed. But I think when we talk about "missing" them, there are two conversations going on at once. On the one hand, we miss them from a pure qualitative standpoint. That just sort of is what it is. It was a lot of minutes and production to replace and it is a tough job to fill that efficiently.

The other, I think more interesting conversation to be had is missing them from a strategic, basketball identity standpoint. E.g., some people think the teams' ceiling is higher without them.  I think that is an uphill climb, but you can at least see the thought process. We're longer, more athletic, more in the "switchable" mode without them. But two things have to happen to give that even a snowball's chance of playing out. One, we need a lot of pretty raw guys to develop and grow up in a hurry. Elliot, Cain, Bailey all need to develop quick. Second, and more importantly, the gameplan has to change to fit this new squad. That's the real rub for me - I've been a huge critic of how much standing, iso and creating jump shots off the dribble we've seen out of Wojo's offenses. I think that lack of strategy has been saved by having MH and Sam who are unique talents who can make that offense work. But this team just won't be able to post the offensive numbers last year's team did with that kind of offense. To make this team click on offense, you need the ball to move a lot more. You need inside-outside game. You need to actually make that athleticism work for you. That will get the defense moving laterally and allow guys like Elliott (and Sacar who looks lost on offense with Koby's emergence) to do good things going to the basket.  Without that, we're not putting the guys we need to develop quickly in a position to succeed, and the only competitive games we'll win are where both MH and Koby get hot on their own.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 18, 2019, 10:00:05 AM
It would be nice of one of the bigs could be a semi-reliable scoring threat.

It's hard to score when no one passes you the ball.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on November 18, 2019, 10:07:41 AM
It's hard to score when no one passes you the ball.


You want Theo shooting more than the 3-4 shots a game he does now - and has for the past two seasons?  Ed and Jayce who are similar?

We lost our best two interior post up scorers from last year.  Both Sam and Joey were good inside.  Our current bigs are defenders who are going to score 75% of their points off rebounds.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: MUDPT on November 18, 2019, 10:10:14 AM
https://youtu.be/03JLFqFvtkA

There’s a link to the 94 UK game if anybody wants to debate the triangle and 2.

UW definitely wanted this game yesterday. Multiple players (Reuvers, Wahl and Davison) were playing with a chip on their shoulder. You could see it when they exited the game. I would too, when you get beat the last two years.

Also King pushes off on his ankle breaker. It’s not much, but also not much in that position to make someone lose their balance.

Davison “jalen rose’s” every shooter in his closeouts. It’s cheap and really dirty and then acts like he isn’t doing anything wrong.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 18, 2019, 10:40:15 AM

You want Theo shooting more than the 3-4 shots a game he does now - and has for the past two seasons?  Ed and Jayce who are similar?

We lost our best two interior post up scorers from last year.  Both Sam and Joey were good inside.  Our current bigs are defenders who are going to score 75% of their points off rebounds.

When we have unguarded bigs, even Theo, in the lane after a pick and roll, then yes.  I want them to have more touches. Catch ball, one bounce, dunk.  And it keeps other teams honest, they can't ignore the paint any more so they aren't draped all over the perimeter guys.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: CTWarrior on November 18, 2019, 10:43:40 AM
When we have unguarded bigs, even Theo, in the lane after a pick and roll, then yes.  I want them to have more touches. Catch ball, one bounce, dunk.  And it keeps other teams honest, they can't ignore the paint any more so they aren't draped all over the perimeter guys.
Yup.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: MUBurrow on November 18, 2019, 10:47:11 AM
I'd have to rewatch the last couple of games, but I suspect that the dearth of inside touches from our bigs is due in part to Bailey spending most of his time on the perimeter.  With only one guy down low and no crossing screens to speak of, its tough to work the ball in with any regularity. Its easier for the post defender to deny, and the perimeter defenders can prevent easy entry passes. I hate to sound like a broken record, but its the kind of thing that can still work when you have crafty mismatch type guys like Sam or Joey operating out of the high post who have a greater variety of ways to demand the ball with their back to the basket.  But you can't exactly feed Theo the same way. The only way the inside guys could have gotten more touches was on the occasional high screen and roll to the basket, which yes, would have been nice - but its not curing the ball movement/inside touches problem.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: CTWarrior on November 18, 2019, 10:50:38 AM
I'd have to rewatch the last couple of games, but I suspect that the dearth of inside touches from our bigs is due in part to Bailey spending most of his time on the perimeter.  With only one guy down low and no crossing screens to speak of, its tough to work the ball in with any regularity. Its easier for the post defender to deny, and the perimeter defenders can prevent easy entry passes. I hate to sound like a broken record, but its the kind of thing that can still work when you have crafty mismatch type guys like Sam or Joey operating out of the high post who have a greater variety of ways to demand the ball with their back to the basket.  But you can't exactly feed Theo the same way. The only way the inside guys could have gotten more touches was on the occasional high screen and roll to the basket, which yes, would have been nice - but its not curing the ball movement/inside touches problem.
Haven't seen enough of Johnson to have an opinion, but Theo has only shown flashes of low post ability.  I was hoping that this season with Anim, Howard, Elliott and McEwen slashing toward the hoop, there'd be plenty of opportunities for our big guys to just catch a pass under the basket and dunk.  So far it seems that those opportunities have been there on occasion, but we haven't made the pass.  Way too early to be certain it will always be this way, but it was especially noticeable yesterday.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: CTWarrior on November 18, 2019, 10:57:02 AM
CTWarrior

I agree that Koby looks like a player. My point is that I do not believe he is a first or second option on a really good team. He looks like a clear cut second best option on MU and at this moment it does not look like MU is a really good team. Honestly, sometimes I believe some on here (not you) look to argue points for the sake of protecting the program's reputation.

It is like in the Do We Miss the Hausers thread, I cannot believe that anyone can truthfully say they are not missed. While I would not agree anyone on this, but if they said not missed because they were a cancer, that is an opinion. But, to think they are not missed as basketball players seems crazy to me.
I agree with you, but based on what I've seen I think Koby could be the point guard for a top 10 team.  Probably not the 1st or 2nd scoring option like you said.  Futhermore, I've only seen him play 3 games, so my opinion can easily change.  I also agree that we miss the Hausers, especially Sam, a lot, but I'm not going to bring it up anymore because what's the point?
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Silkk the Shaka on November 18, 2019, 12:13:44 PM
I agree with you, but based on what I've seen I think Koby could be the point guard for a top 10 team.  Probably not the 1st or 2nd scoring option like you said.  Futhermore, I've only seen him play 3 games, so my opinion can easily change.  I also agree that we miss the Hausers, especially Sam, a lot, but I'm not going to bring it up anymore because what's the point?

Agreed, I've loved what I've seen from him thus far (first half of Purdue notwithstanding). He can create his own shot and his 3-ball is money, with great arc and a soft landing on the rim. Almost like the prototype combo guard in a Wojo/K offense (one of ideally 2 on the court at the same time).
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: MUEng92 on November 18, 2019, 12:13:45 PM

Also King pushes off on his ankle breaker. It’s not much, but also not much in that position to make someone lose their balance.


Well, we should get many, many chances to verify your premise because that will be played for years to come.  Ugh.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: tower912 on November 18, 2019, 12:33:49 PM
My 7th grader missed the first half due to travel baseball practice.    Started watching the MU game during the second half.   Not with me as I was at work.   Says to me this morning, "It was like you keep telling us at practice, dad.   When you stand still on offense and don't box out on defense, you lose."     

So proud.    Misted up a little bit. 
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: skianth16 on November 18, 2019, 12:47:28 PM
Agreed, I've loved what I've seen from him thus far (first half of Purdue notwithstanding). He can create his own shot and his 3-ball is money, with great arc and a soft landing on the rim. Almost like the prototype combo guard in a Wojo/K offense (one of ideally 2 on the court at the same time).

I'm not sure we should be comparing the programs or the coaches right now. Wojo obviously took many learnings from Duke and Coach K, but Marquette isn't going to become Duke 2.0 just because of Wojo's time spent at Duke.

I don't know as much about basketball as many poster here, but from I do know, I don't see a lot of similarities in the programs today. Heck, I don't know that we've seen a ton of similarities in our own program year after year. We seem to be continually evolving based on personnel changes without a strong consistency in team identity. And that's no a knock on the coach or team, just an observation that we have been pretty fluid in recent years.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 18, 2019, 12:58:06 PM
Johnny09 is right.  A good coach can neutralize a dominant player on an otherwise inferior team.  Sometimes it's a focus on the player, sometimes on his teammates.

To date, Wojo has demonstrated ZERO ability to adjust (let alone customize) a gameplan to put this kids in a position to win.

Late to the party, but this is another one of things you say is an issue, but I actually think is one of Wojo's strengths.

Yesterday, the clear game plan was to neutralize Nate Reuvers and make their guards beat us. Reuvers went 2/9 yesterday with 1 of the 2 coming in garbage time. The problem was that their guards did beat us by making all of their three pointers when they hadn't been hitting all season.

There have been several times when Wojo has come up with a plan to neutralize the best player on the other team. Sometimes it has worked, other times the other players stepped up to win. Last year's game against Villanova comes to mind. Our defense dominated all of Villanova....except the guy who had scored 0 points in the last four games who decided to go off for 26 against us.

Wojo's initial defensive gameplanning has been a strength the past two seasons. His weakness is adjusting when the unexpected starts happening. His halftime adjustments are solid when the initial gameplan isn't working (see Purdue). But when something unpredictable like all of Wisconsin's guards having good shooting games starts to happen...he stays the course and assumes regression to the mean will occur. Rather than cover Samuels last season, he rolled the dice and said there's no way he keeps hitting those. Sometimes he's right, sometime's not.

Offensively, I agree more with you.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 18, 2019, 01:03:27 PM
What i cant understand is 75% of the time where Markus is not the ball handler he goes n stands in the opposite corner. And the literally stands there the entire possession. Compare that to Stefanivic from Purdue, he was a constant blur of motion during their possesions cutting, curling, screening, coming off multiple screens and in constant motion,  inotherwords being very hard to guard and making it near impossible for his man to even consider helping out on anyone else. 
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Goose on November 18, 2019, 01:06:34 PM
skianth16

I agree on the program not looking similar year after year and I believe it comes down to recruiting. I have said many times I love Wojo chasing after big recruits, but the problem I have is with with tier two recruits. It seems like Wojo keeps betting on landing the big one, and if that fails, he is now chasing options that may or may not be the right fit. This is a big part of what I do not think Wojo has built an identity for the program.

Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: HowardsWorld on November 18, 2019, 01:18:49 PM
What i cant understand is 75% of the time where Markus is not the ball handler he goes n stands in the opposite corner. And the literally stands there the entire possession. Compare that to Stefanivic from Purdue, he was a constant blur of motion during their possesions cutting, curling, screening, coming off multiple screens and in constant motion,  inotherwords being very hard to guard and making it near impossible for his man to even consider helping out on anyone else.

I actually made a comment to my buddy when we were at the Purdue game. He literally was in the corner the entire shot clock. Did not even attempt to move.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: skianth16 on November 18, 2019, 01:30:07 PM
I actually made a comment to my buddy when we were at the Purdue game. He literally was in the corner the entire shot clock. Did not even attempt to move.

I was saying the same thing yesterday. There's too much waiting for things to happen and not enough making things happen with our offense right now. For being a more athletic team than we have been in prior years, this seems like the opposite of how I'd expect the offense to be run.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: mileskishnish72 on November 18, 2019, 01:39:33 PM
Getting the ball inside is like non-masturbatory sex - it requires two people.

The big has to get in a position such that his defender is screened off from the incoming pass, to make himself available, if you will.

The passer has to be able to recognize where the ball has to be delivered and get it to the right spot. Yesterday there was a turnover on such a play (from Sacar, I think) and the commentator pointed out that he threw it to the wrong hand.

Of course, if we can get those two concepts mastered there remains the problem of what the big does then. It profits him little if his screening doesn't get him to a spot where he can have offensive options that are consistent with his game.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: CountryRoads on November 18, 2019, 02:01:47 PM
skianth16

I agree on the program not looking similar year after year and I believe it comes down to recruiting. I have said many times I love Wojo chasing after big recruits, but the problem I have is with with tier two recruits. It seems like Wojo keeps betting on landing the big one, and if that fails, he is now chasing options that may or may not be the right fit. This is a big part of what I do not think Wojo has built an identity for the program.

This is a good point. The team is completely different each year and not sure that’s a good thing. For reference (and yes it’s not the be all end all), here are the recruiting rankings of each of the players on this year’s team:

John: 3 star #204
Anim: 3 star #191
Bailey: 4 star #92
McEwen: 3 star #175
Howard: 4 star #68

Elliott: 3 star #224
Cain: 3 star #145
Morrow: 4 star #111
Johnson: 4 star #87
Torrence: 4 star #75
Akanno: 3 star #399

Wojo hasn’t been as creative as Buzz was when it comes to filling in the holes after missing out on a top recruit. If MU is going to have a team full of 3 stars, then I think there needs to be a clear identity of what the system is and getting guys to fit that system better.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Goose on November 18, 2019, 02:15:15 PM
AirPunch

Spot on. You can win with three stars, but better have a system and know how to coach it. I am pretty sure that I referenced a few years ago a former MU coach that could coach up three stars and compete at pretty high level. Well, MU has his type of players for the most part, just lacking the system and a coach to make it happen.

I told some fellow MU fans yesterday that Rick could take these ten kids and take them to S16 and be tough out. I do not fault the players one bit, but do fault a coach that has yet to create a system that helps guys play better than their HS rankings.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: RJax55 on November 18, 2019, 02:41:28 PM
AirPunch

Spot on. You can win with three stars, but better have a system and know how to coach it. I am pretty sure that I referenced a few years ago a former MU coach that could coach up three stars and compete at pretty high level. Well, MU has his type of players for the most part, just lacking the system and a coach to make it happen.

I told some fellow MU fans yesterday that Rick could take these ten kids and take them to S16 and be tough out. I do not fault the players one bit, but do fault a coach that has yet to create a system that helps guys play better than their HS rankings.

Wojo is not that guy. This isn't a knee-jerk reaction over the WI game either. He's never going to be an elite coach when it comes to X & Os (like Rick) or have a system that allows guys to play above their talent/skills (like Bo). The only way he can elevate the program beyond the current reality is to recruit better. The issue of course is that recruiting might be the toughest part of the job (especially to school like MU) and of course it is the most fickle.

I don't get caught up in the recruiting hype too much these days, but this Dawson recruitment does seem like a pivotal moment. He needs to land bigger fish to get better, because his coaching isn't going to do it.

I think your comments on Wojo and MU overall are pretty spot-on.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: willie warrior on November 18, 2019, 03:12:22 PM
Late to the party, but this is another one of things you say is an issue, but I actually think is one of Wojo's strengths.

Yesterday, the clear game plan was to neutralize Nate Reuvers and make their guards beat us. Reuvers went 2/9 yesterday with 1 of the 2 coming in garbage time. The problem was that their guards did beat us by making all of their three pointers when they hadn't been hitting all season.

There have been several times when Wojo has come up with a plan to neutralize the best player on the other team. Sometimes it has worked, other times the other players stepped up to win. Last year's game against Villanova comes to mind. Our defense dominated all of Villanova....except the guy who had scored 0 points in the last four games who decided to go off for 26 against us.

Wojo's initial defensive gameplanning has been a strength the past two seasons. His weakness is adjusting when the unexpected starts happening. His halftime adjustments are solid when the initial gameplan isn't working (see Purdue). But when something unpredictable like all of Wisconsin's guards having good shooting games starts to happen...he stays the course and assumes regression to the mean will occur. Rather than cover Samuels last season, he rolled the dice and said there's no way he keeps hitting those. Sometimes he's right, sometime's not.

Offensively, I agree more with you.
posted like a true 1000% Wojo Kool Aid slurper.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Warrior of Law on November 18, 2019, 03:20:16 PM
The concept that Wojo is good at recruiting is completely unfounded. But for Howard, any of the other players are not much better than Mike Deane-recruited team. You take Deane-esque talent, combined with average coaching, and have you the 2019-20 team.

When he does get a big-time player (Ellenson, Hauser) they leave after a year, and set the team back a few years.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: wadesworld on November 18, 2019, 03:21:15 PM
The concept that Wojo is good at recruiting is completely unfounded. But for Howard, any of the other players are not much better than Mike Deane-recruited team. You take Deane-esque talent, combined with average coaching, and have you the 2019-20 team.

When he does get a big-time player (Ellenson, Hauser) they leave after a year, and set the team back a few years.

So we are closing the book on the 2019-20 team after 3 games?  Nice.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Warrior of Law on November 18, 2019, 03:29:27 PM
So we are closing the book on the 2019-20 team after 3 games?  Nice.

Not necessarily, but we should expect a few more 50-48 grinders than 100-92 shoot-outs.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Goose on November 18, 2019, 03:34:16 PM
I am not shutting the door on the season after three games, simply stating what I hope is obvious to the vast majority of folks on here. The coach has to coach a lot better or mid tier players need to play up a notch or two.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Uncle Rico on November 18, 2019, 04:19:40 PM
posted like a true 1000% Wojo Kool Aid slurper.

That’s a good point.  I hadn’t thought of it that way. 
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 18, 2019, 05:19:07 PM
posted like a true 1000% Wojo Kool Aid slurper.

And you sir have a high intellect as evidenced by your constant name calling.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: jesmu84 on November 18, 2019, 05:52:05 PM
The concept that Wojo is good at recruiting is completely unfounded. But for Howard, any of the other players are not much better than Mike Deane-recruited team. You take Deane-esque talent, combined with average coaching, and have you the 2019-20 team.

When he does get a big-time player (Ellenson, Hauser) they leave after a year, and set the team back a few years.

So you believe Joey is a big-time player, but Markus, or even Sam, isn't?
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on November 18, 2019, 05:57:08 PM
Just rewatched the game. BB woof. Really need better from him and Sacar for this team to be good.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: MUEng92 on November 18, 2019, 07:48:56 PM
Just rewatched the game. BB woof. Really need better from him and Sacar for this team to be good.
What the hell is wrong with you?  Why would you watch that a second time unless it was your job?
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: GoldenDieners32 on November 18, 2019, 07:55:44 PM
Feel like sacar is just in a little slump to start the year, he'll be good just wait
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: skianth16 on November 18, 2019, 08:01:38 PM
Feel like sacar is just in a little slump to start the year, he'll be good just wait

I like this take. He'll figure his role out on offense in time. As a senior, I'd prefer to seem him dictate his role a little more, but that doesn't seem to be his style. Once Koby gets more comfortable, I expect Sacar to begin playing much better.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on November 18, 2019, 08:14:06 PM
What the hell is wrong with you?  Why would you watch that a second time unless it was your job?

Self-flagellation is a Scoop thing apparently.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Spaniel with a Short Tail on November 18, 2019, 08:36:45 PM
(https://media.tenor.com/images/bcdbca0c0cd562f72ac2bf713f73192a/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: Lennys Tap on November 18, 2019, 10:01:42 PM
Once Koby gets more comfortable, I expect Sacar to begin playing much better.

Maybe. Sure hope so. I don't think it's a Koby issue, though. Last year (because Markus, Sam and Joey were dead eye shooters) Sacar was either unattended on the perimeter or had a wide open lane to the basket. This year BB or Jamal is the unguarded or softly guarded guy and Sacar is struggling to get good looks.
Title: Re: Pivot (al) Moments
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on November 19, 2019, 02:45:47 PM
What the hell is wrong with you?  Why would you watch that a second time unless it was your job?

I was pretty tuned up when I watched it Sunday.  I also felt like analyzing the play of a few guys a bit more.  Afte rall, its a bunch of college kids playing a single basketball game - not like its gonna put me on suicide watch or something.