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Author Topic: Brand new season, same old Wojo.  (Read 13710 times)

f/k/a humanlung

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #175 on: November 18, 2019, 06:40:02 PM »
Vandy lost to Wisconsin in the 2nd round. They haven't made a S16 since 2007. Syracuse game was in the tournament against us to go to the F4. I believe the other ones are accurate.

I'd guess Purdue and Wisconsin are NCAA caliber teams, might win a game. Won't get to the 2nd weekend. Purdue is the wild card because they could improve a lot as the year goes on, but the team we played is probably a top 30 team.

Nice catch on Vandy. 

f/k/a humanlung

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #176 on: November 18, 2019, 06:43:30 PM »
I would be disingenuous if I did not say I was more excited with the talent we had back then than we do now, even in real time.  But was not thinking NBA talent except for Jae.  Loved Jimmy but was not as sure about him being NBA caliber until Senior year.  The rest were just high level NCAA players and that is ok.  They developed well and it led to some really good years.

I’m hoping that some of the guys on our current team develop into high level NCAA players.  I also hope that Wojo can still land an outstanding recruiting class.  If it doesn’t happen this year the writing is on the wall.  Writing that many saw way earlier than me.  Can’t wait forever.     

I feel the same way.  Back then, you pretty much knew that playing MU was going to be a dogfight.  WHILE THERE WERE OCCASIONAL BAD GAMES, it was pretty much a given.  That kind of toughness, in my opinion, is fun to watch.

Cheeks

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #177 on: November 18, 2019, 07:23:14 PM »
I feel the same way.  Back then, you pretty much knew that playing MU was going to be a dogfight.  WHILE THERE WERE OCCASIONAL BAD GAMES, it was pretty much a given.  That kind of toughness, in my opinion, is fun to watch.

It amazes me how dull our memories get when pining for the past...a human condition.  I’m guilty of it as well. 

Define dogfight.  I can rattle off plenty of games under each coach that were major stinkers and others we won where it was anything but a dogfight or what appeared like extreme effort.  Part of sports and kids 18-22...you don’t always get what you are hoping for.  Or, times where we did max out on effort but just could not shoot if our lives depended on it.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 10:23:57 PM by Cheeks »
”Bob Knight said never to coach brothers, and never coach twins....they will make you crazy.  When one is sad, the other is sad.”

Lennys Tap

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #178 on: November 18, 2019, 08:11:09 PM »
I can rattle of plenty of games under each coach that were major stinkers and others we won where it was anything but a dogfight or what appeared like extreme effort.

Of course every coach has clunkers and every coach has big wins. It's the ratio of big wins to clunkers that puts coaches on a scale that goes from hall of fame worthy to the unemployment line. And on that scale (at least as of now) Wojo is light years behind Al, miles behind Buzz and solidly behind KO and Crean. Hope he can move into that group (I mean that, I like the guy), but even Mrs Wojo would admit 5+ years in he has some serious catching up to do.

BM1090

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #179 on: November 18, 2019, 10:24:57 PM »
Of course every coach has clunkers and every coach has big wins. It's the ratio of big wins to clunkers that puts coaches on a scale that goes from hall of fame worthy to the unemployment line. And on that scale (at least as of now) Wojo is light years behind Al, miles behind Buzz and solidly behind KO and Crean. Hope he can move into that group (I mean that, I like the guy), but even Mrs Wojo would admit 5+ years in he has some serious catching up to do.

Really only 3 clunkers the past two years.

@Indiana, @UW, @SJU.

Twice the first road game. Once the first conference game. 1 to 2 clunkers per year is completely normal. It was obviously much more common pre-2018
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f/k/a humanlung

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #180 on: November 18, 2019, 10:27:37 PM »
Really only 3 clunkers the past two years.

@Indiana, @UW, @SJU.

Twice the first road game. Once the first conference game. 1 to 2 clunkers per year is completely normal. It was obviously much more common pre-2018

Murray State in NCAA Tournament doesn't make the list? 

Johnny B

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #181 on: November 18, 2019, 10:31:45 PM »
Murray State in NCAA Tournament doesn't make the list?
What's your username supposee to mean?

Lennys Tap

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #182 on: November 18, 2019, 10:41:43 PM »
Murray State in NCAA Tournament doesn't make the list?

Huge clunker. Losing at home to a poor Georgetown team with the Big East title on the line qualifies, too.

Cheeks

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #183 on: November 18, 2019, 10:42:30 PM »
Of course every coach has clunkers and every coach has big wins. It's the ratio of big wins to clunkers that puts coaches on a scale that goes from hall of fame worthy to the unemployment line. And on that scale (at least as of now) Wojo is light years behind Al, miles behind Buzz and solidly behind KO and Crean. Hope he can move into that group (I mean that, I like the guy), but even Mrs Wojo would admit 5+ years in he has some serious catching up to do.

Miles?  Solidly behind? 


This is Wojo’s 6th season, he took over far far less of a team than Buzz did.  Despite this, here are the clunkers from Buzz’s 6th year to compare apples to apples.

Buzz’s 6th year

Lost by 17 to Ohio State where we managed all of 35 points
Lost by 18 at Creighton
Lost by 15 at St John’s
Lost by 15 at home to Creighton
Beat DePaul by 2 in OT
Lost by 17 at Villanova

I’ll keep out the New Mexico and San Diego near double digit losses.  Now, some of these losses were to ranked teams, some weren’t....my point is our memories dull pretty quickly.  Happy to provide other examples in other years.



”Bob Knight said never to coach brothers, and never coach twins....they will make you crazy.  When one is sad, the other is sad.”

Cheeks

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #184 on: November 18, 2019, 10:48:43 PM »
Buzz’s fifth year

Lost to Florida by 33.  Is this the example of dog fight Humanlung?
Lost at UW Green Bay
Lost at Louisville by 19
Lost Notre Dame by 10

Etc


Some great wins, some bad losses.   Memories are fading folks....
”Bob Knight said never to coach brothers, and never coach twins....they will make you crazy.  When one is sad, the other is sad.”

Lennys Tap

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #185 on: November 18, 2019, 11:00:20 PM »
Miles?  Solidly behind? 


This is Wojo’s 6th season, he took over far far less of a team than Buzz did.  Despite this, here are the clunkers from Buzz’s 6th year to compare apples to apples.

Buzz’s 6th year

Lost by 17 to Ohio State where we managed all of 35 points
Lost by 18 at Creighton
Lost by 15 at St John’s
Lost by 15 at home to Creighton
Beat DePaul by 2 in OT
Lost by 17 at Villanova

I’ll keep out the New Mexico and San Diego near double digit losses.  Now, some of these losses were to ranked teams, some weren’t....my point is our memories dull pretty quickly.  Happy to provide other examples in other years.

Through 5 years Buzz had 8 NCAA tournament wins. But since you're all about what Buzz and Wojo "inherited" let's ignore years one and two. In years 3-5, without any Crean holdovers, Buzz won 7 NCAA tournament games, had 2 14-4 seasons in the old (much tougher) Big East and a Big East Conference championship.

In his years 3-5, Wojo won zero NCAA tournament games and zero new Big East (much softer) titles.

So, 7-3, S16, S16, E8 with his own guys > 0-2 with his own guys (both blowouts, one as a favorite, one as a pick'em). By a lot of  miles.

As I said (and you never addressed) big wins on the big stage mitigate the clunkers that all coaches (including the great ones) have. In that regard Wojo's resume' is very thin.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 11:16:37 PM by Lennys Tap »

Cheeks

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #186 on: November 18, 2019, 11:04:39 PM »
Through 5 years Buzz had 8 NCAA tournament wins (7 with out any Crean holdovers in 3 years). He also had 2 14-4 seasons in the old much tougher) Big East and a Big East Conference championship (both without any of Crean's players).

What Wojo has done in his first 5 years (and more importantly in 3 years with his own guys) is miles behind.

7-3, S16, S16, E8 with your own guys > 0-2 (both blowouts, one as a favorite, one as a pick'em). By miles.

You are proving my point.  You basically are forgiving really bad losses because went on tournament runs, essentially voiding them out as if they didn’t happen.  But they did.

Some absolute stinkers, in some cases with four future NBA players on the squad.
”Bob Knight said never to coach brothers, and never coach twins....they will make you crazy.  When one is sad, the other is sad.”

dbwarriors

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #187 on: November 18, 2019, 11:12:22 PM »
2011-2012 teams you mentioned (final records unless i misread something):

Louisville (30-10) - went to Final Four
North Carolina (32-6) - Elite 8
Vandy (25-11) - Sweet 16
Florida (26-11) - Elite 8
Syracuse (34-3) - Elite 8

Are we saying that 2019-2020 Purdue and Wisconsin are in the same caliber of teams as those in the list you posted?  If you aren't, then this comp is not meaningful, imo.
You are proving my point.  You basically are forgiving really bad losses because went on tournament runs, essentially voiding them out as if they didn’t happen.  But they did.

Some absolute stinkers, in some cases with four future NBA players on the squad.

three sweet 16’s, one of which was an elite 8, and a blowout win against the ACC winner that year. the only stinker is your ability to fact check. and yep, those future NBA players were also recruited by the head coach.

Cheeks

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #188 on: November 18, 2019, 11:17:04 PM »
three sweet 16’s, one of which was an elite 8, and a blowout win against the ACC winner that year. the only stinker is your ability to fact check. and yep, those future NBA players were also recruited by the head coach.

What did I not fact check?  Yes, he did recruit them...and despite that huge talent advantage we still had plenty of stinkers....if Wojo had done that it would be his fault, but when Buzz loses like that with that kind of talent it’s why?  Incidentally we also got blown out last game of the year by 16 which I didn’t mention.

I didn’t get anything wrong, my point remains that we have had plenty of brutal losses by all the previous coaches...memories fade quickly around here, or they are masked by a tournament run...that doesn’t change the crapburgers we have had. 

I could go the year prior...20 point loss to Vanderbilt at home.  17 point loss to Notre Dame, 11
point to Cincinnati, 13 point loss to Louisville, etc. 

Year before that, 13 point loss to Seton Hall, 12 point loss  to St John’s at home, 25 point loss to Louisville, 18 point loss to finish the season.

Each year, Major clunkers.  It happens, memories awfully dull.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 11:24:03 PM by Cheeks »
”Bob Knight said never to coach brothers, and never coach twins....they will make you crazy.  When one is sad, the other is sad.”

f/k/a humanlung

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #189 on: November 18, 2019, 11:19:33 PM »
Buzz’s fifth year

Lost to Florida by 33.  Is this the example of dog fight Humanlung?
Lost at UW Green Bay
Lost at Louisville by 19
Lost Notre Dame by 10

Etc


Some great wins, some bad losses.   Memories are fading folks....

As I recall, and I admit it's been a while, when Buzz was here there was talk of the NBA scouts believing there was a "Marquette Brand" that  produced  tough, hard working players who never quit.

It's somewhere on this board, in fact. 

Again, every team has crappy games and bad loses.  You nailed some of them, for sure.  In my opinion, Buzz's teams overall had a lot more heart and fight that the Wojo's.

Buzz's last year, he was checked out and deserves criticism for that but overall, no comparison between what most of his teams looked/played like and Wojo's.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #190 on: November 18, 2019, 11:23:52 PM »
You are proving my point.  You basically are forgiving really bad losses because went on tournament runs.

No you're proving mine, that big wins mitigate bad losses.

Two 14-4 seasons in the old Big East, an old Big East regular season title AND 7 tournament wins VS NONE of the above gives the former much more leeway re inevitable clunkers than it does the latter.

This is so obvious I can't believe you're arguing. I know you hate Buzz and love Wojo, but c'mon.

79Warrior

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #191 on: November 19, 2019, 12:02:28 AM »
No you're proving mine, that big wins mitigate bad losses.

Two 14-4 seasons in the old Big East, an old Big East regular season title AND 7 tournament wins VS NONE of the above gives the former much more leeway re inevitable clunkers than it does the latter.

This is so obvious I can't believe you're arguing. I know you hate Buzz and love Wojo, but c'mon.

I agree with you. No comparison.

BM1090

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #192 on: November 19, 2019, 12:22:17 AM »
Murray State in NCAA Tournament doesn't make the list?

Was thinking regular season. Honestly slipped my mind. Murray State would obviously make the list, yes.
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TheREALwrk

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #193 on: November 19, 2019, 06:30:30 AM »
This thread stinks and so does humanlung :/

CleanishProgram

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #194 on: November 19, 2019, 06:51:57 AM »
I’m not sure Simone Biles could handle the gymnastics required to equate the resumes of Buzz and Wojo. NCAA tournament wins weigh so much more than any other factor, it’s almost ridiculous to discuss regular season clunkers — it’s almost like discussing how Hillary won the popular vote. The correct response is, “yeah but that’s not what matters, that’s not the game we were playing.” Maybe Buzz put his team through a hell workout prior to these clunkers to ensure preparedness for the NCAA? Maybe he was trying new player combinations or defensive schemes? What matters is he took the lessons from these clunkers and created success in the NCAA.

I don’t have a short memory, I remember what it was like to win NCAA tournament games or postseason games in general. It was nice, and I miss it.

f/k/a humanlung

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #195 on: November 19, 2019, 07:28:25 AM »
Was thinking regular season. Honestly slipped my mind. Murray State would obviously make the list, yes.

I think yours is a normal reaction of the human brain blocking the memory of a horrible event.

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #196 on: November 19, 2019, 07:38:50 AM »
I don’t have a short memory, I remember what it was like to win NCAA tournament games or postseason games in general. It was nice, and I miss it.

You know what is interesting, those who don't remember are all on campus.

NickelDimer

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #197 on: November 19, 2019, 07:58:11 AM »
No you're proving mine, that big wins mitigate bad losses.

Two 14-4 seasons in the old Big East, an old Big East regular season title AND 7 tournament wins VS NONE of the above gives the former much more leeway re inevitable clunkers than it does the latter.

This is so obvious I can't believe you're arguing. I know you hate Buzz and love Wojo, but c'mon.
Spot on
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GOO

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #198 on: November 19, 2019, 08:10:33 AM »
This is not a defense of Wojo, so don't read it that way. I did however want to comment on Buzz's teams, as some seem to remember the "good old days" as better than I do.  As humans we do tend to remember the good and forget the bad, survival instinct I guess - plenty of psychological studies on this as it relates to business, gamblings wins vs. loses, stock investing, ect.  Overtime, we remember the good and forget or discount the bad.  Just the way we humans function and survive, I guess.

So, let me say that Buzz had gritty teams.  We made some great runs in the tournament.  Great tournaments runs, let me say that again, and for some that is all that matters.  A couple of those were teams that just made it into the tournament by a hair and didn't have great seasons, but they did win in the tourney.   

The one thing I could not stand regarding Buzz's teams and it made games painful to watch, is the lack of shooting and skills and lack of a real point guard (I do not think Junior was good, just better than the others he had). I know others love him.  He did hit one shot for a win, I think at Providence, and I remember at a game we really needed to win for our tourney hopes. But...

The inability to shoot the ball, with a couple of exceptions (DJO could be killer) was so painful to watch.  This is something that stands out for me.  I like teams that can shoot, pass, etc.  So, watching those gritty teams, was not fun for me.

Maybe I'm remembering the good old days in a negative light, but that is how I remember them.  Painful shooting teams with great athleticism but not great basketball players.  There were a few exceptions, but that is my general take.  For reference, I loved watching a guy like Diener play - killer ball handler, passer, shooter, smart as heck basketball IQ.  He may have been a bit slow on the defensive end, but for me, that was okay given his other abilities.  So that is my bias.  So Buzz's teams that lacked these qualities were really painful for me to watch.

So, Buzz = lack of basketball skills.  Wojo, until now, has = lack of athleticism.   Maybe to simple, but that's my simple take. I enjoy watching Wojo's teams more.  Would love some tourney runs, of course.

The item that is missing and why Buzz is not here and had to go, has been remedied by Wojo.  The team is now part of the university not run at the pleasure of an individual who thinks the team is separate from the university. That can be ignored when talking purely basketball, but can't be when talking about a college team that is not KY, Louisville, etc.

brewcity77

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #199 on: November 19, 2019, 08:12:36 AM »
What's your username supposee to mean?

Formerly Known As

He forgot his old password or something.

 

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