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Author Topic: Brand new season, same old Wojo.  (Read 17513 times)

tower912

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #200 on: November 19, 2019, 08:25:29 AM »
This is not a defense of Wojo, so don't read it that way. I did however want to comment on Buzz's teams, as some seem to remember the "good old days" as better than I do.  As humans we do tend to remember the good and forget the bad, survival instinct I guess - plenty of psychological studies on this as it relates to business, gamblings wins vs. loses, stock investing, ect.  Overtime, we remember the good and forget or discount the bad.  Just the way we humans function and survive, I guess.

So, let me say that Buzz had gritty teams.  We made some great runs in the tournament.  Great tournaments runs, let me say that again, and for some that is all that matters.  A couple of those were teams that just made it into the tournament by a hair and didn't have great seasons, but they did win in the tourney.   

The one thing I could not stand regarding Buzz's teams and it made games painful to watch, is the lack of shooting and skills and lack of a real point guard (I do not think Junior was good, just better than the others he had). I know others love him.  He did hit one shot for a win, I think at Providence, and I remember at a game we really needed to win for our tourney hopes. But...

The inability to shoot the ball, with a couple of exceptions (DJO could be killer) was so painful to watch.  This is something that stands out for me.  I like teams that can shoot, pass, etc.  So, watching those gritty teams, was not fun for me.

Maybe I'm remembering the good old days in a negative light, but that is how I remember them.  Painful shooting teams with great athleticism but not great basketball players.  There were a few exceptions, but that is my general take.  For reference, I loved watching a guy like Diener play - killer ball handler, passer, shooter, smart as heck basketball IQ.  He may have been a bit slow on the defensive end, but for me, that was okay given his other abilities.  So that is my bias.  So Buzz's teams that lacked these qualities were really painful for me to watch.

So, Buzz = lack of basketball skills.  Wojo, until now, has = lack of athleticism.   Maybe to simple, but that's my simple take. I enjoy watching Wojo's teams more.  Would love some tourney runs, of course.

The item that is missing and why Buzz is not here and had to go, has been remedied by Wojo.  The team is now part of the university not run at the pleasure of an individual who thinks the team is separate from the university. That can be ignored when talking purely basketball, but can't be when talking about a college team that is not KY, Louisville, etc.

Same point that Cheeks is making.    And you aren't wrong.    Buzz was criticized mightily during the seasons.    Team bubble watch.    Terrible, unacceptable losses.     The difference is that he had tournament success.    The most since Al.     I am accused of being a Wojo slurper.   Meh.    I don't know if it was me or Fuzzy who made the point first, but to me Wojo is Crean without Wade.     So far.   But I am a patient soul and still believe that Wojo can grow beyond that.     

But, the difference to me between Buzz and Wojo/Crean is that Buzz was able to make teams more than the sums of their parts.    Crean didn't.    Wojo hasn't so far.    The flip side of that is that Wojo is more consistently collecting better parts than Crean did.     He just has to put them together correctly.   
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

#UnleashJayce

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #201 on: November 19, 2019, 08:27:00 AM »
Same point that Cheeks is making.    And you aren't wrong.    Buzz was criticized mightily during the seasons.    Team bubble watch.    Terrible, unacceptable losses.     The difference is that he had tournament success.    The most since Al.     I am accused of being a Wojo slurper.   Meh.    I don't know if it was me or Fuzzy who made the point first, but to me Wojo is Crean without Wade.     So far.   But I am a patient soul and still believe that Wojo can grow beyond that.     

But, the difference to me between Buzz and Wojo/Crean is that Buzz was able to make teams more than the sums of their parts.    Crean didn't.    Wojo hasn't so far.    The flip side of that is that Wojo is more consistently collecting better parts than Crean did.     He just has to put them together correctly.

Or stop losing the parts.

tower912

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #202 on: November 19, 2019, 08:28:52 AM »
Or stop recruiting parts that turn on him.   
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #203 on: November 19, 2019, 08:36:02 AM »
nm
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 08:45:16 AM by Lennys Tap »

Ellenson Family Reunion

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #204 on: November 19, 2019, 08:45:36 AM »
I’m not sure Simone Biles could handle the gymnastics required to equate the resumes of Buzz and Wojo. NCAA tournament wins weigh so much more than any other factor, it’s almost ridiculous to discuss regular season clunkers — it’s almost like discussing how Hillary won the popular vote. The correct response is, “yeah but that’s not what matters, that’s not the game we were playing.” Maybe Buzz put his team through a hell workout prior to these clunkers to ensure preparedness for the NCAA? Maybe he was trying new player combinations or defensive schemes? What matters is he took the lessons from these clunkers and created success in the NCAA.

I don’t have a short memory, I remember what it was like to win NCAA tournament games or postseason games in general. It was nice, and I miss it.

Okay that was a good line.

Shooter McGavin

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #205 on: November 19, 2019, 09:02:34 AM »
The flip side of that is that Wojo is more consistently collecting better parts than Crean did.     He just has to put them together correctly.

Not sure I totally agree.  I’d take some Wade, Denier, Novak, Jackson parts or some James, Mathew, McNeal, Hayward parts right now and trade anyone of our current or former Wojo players for them. (Except maybe Howard and even then I might do it).

Cheeks

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #206 on: November 19, 2019, 09:08:10 AM »
End of the day, apparently if Wojo can get to a Sweet 16 this year, by winning those two games...he suddenly becomes an accomplished coach...that’s the deal.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Coleman

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #207 on: November 19, 2019, 09:10:16 AM »
End of the day, apparently if Wojo can get to a Sweet 16 this year, by winning those two games...he suddenly becomes an accomplished coach...that’s the deal.

Pretty much. Buzz's first Sweet 16 season we were an 11 seed. Tons of losses that year. People don't remember the regular season, for better or worse.

NickelDimer

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #208 on: November 19, 2019, 09:11:10 AM »
End of the day, apparently if Wojo can get to a Sweet 16 this year, by winning those two games...he suddenly becomes an accomplished coach...that’s the deal.
You’re catching on!
G.T.S.T

GOO

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #209 on: November 19, 2019, 09:15:19 AM »
Same point that Cheeks is making.    And you aren't wrong.    Buzz was criticized mightily during the seasons.    Team bubble watch.    Terrible, unacceptable losses.     The difference is that he had tournament success.    The most since Al.     I am accused of being a Wojo slurper.   Meh.    I don't know if it was me or Fuzzy who made the point first, but to me Wojo is Crean without Wade.     So far.   But I am a patient soul and still believe that Wojo can grow beyond that.     

But, the difference to me between Buzz and Wojo/Crean is that Buzz was able to make teams more than the sums of their parts.    Crean didn't.    Wojo hasn't so far.    The flip side of that is that Wojo is more consistently collecting better parts than Crean did.     He just has to put them together correctly.

I get the tourney wins and most seem to value them more than I do versus the season.  But, I do not dismiss the tourney wins.  They were fun times.  They are very important and allow me to not just dismiss Buzz as an egomaniac who established a team versus the university culture.  He could coach like no other I have seen at MU.  Just like Crean delivered a Final Four.  No matter what some of Crean's teams were like and the inability to recruit big men (which Wojo is able to do) that FF run by Crean is so special. 

Off topic, somewhat, but relevant: Crean and Wojo also get a pass for establishing academic and personal standards in line with MU values. Not perfect, but definitely something I'll give up a tourney run or a few wins for.  Bigger picture for me and i'm sure many.  Team has to be part of the university with players that graduate and better themselves.  Else, shut the team down as far as I'm concerned.  Some are win at all costs. I'm no where near that and see the team as a bigger picture and part of the university's mission.

Ellenson Family Reunion

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #210 on: November 19, 2019, 09:30:58 AM »
You’re catching on!

LOL

But seriously, make the S16 this year and that feather in the cap can add some kerosene to the recruiting fire. Narratives are important, and recruiting is a zero-sum game. When recruiting is ~85% of the job, it follows that the narrative is pretty damn important too! Not to mention tourney runs are fun as hell...

dinger

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #211 on: November 19, 2019, 09:46:37 AM »
Pretty much. Buzz's first Sweet 16 season we were an 11 seed. Tons of losses that year. People don't remember the regular season, for better or worse.

Yes, at least I do. That was one of the most emotional seasons we had. Came off the soul-crushing loss the year before in the NCAAs, which followed the soul-crushing loss to mizzou with the 3 amigos. So many big games where we lost by a couple possessions. I looked this part up but we lost to #1 duke by 5, #22 Gonzaga by 3, #24 Vandy by 1, #18 Lousiville by 1, #16 ND by 5, #5 UConn by 8, #12 Nova by 5...frustration was at epic levels.
I remember the late season W against UConn at home as one of my favorite games. All along i figured we had to throw in the towel after all those close L's and they came from behind and gutted it out in OT. I was on travel in Alabama at the time
Beating Cuse to get to the sweet 16 wasn't just some little win - we got a humongous monkey off our back from a year of frustrating losses, all the frustration of not getting there with the 3 amigos...
NCAA wins don't just stand on their own, and in that case it was more about overcoming a whole bunch of frustration and finally breaking through.

dinger

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #212 on: November 19, 2019, 09:51:01 AM »
A totally valid criticism of Buzz was his 3-19 record on the road against ranked teams. Wojo is a similar 2-10.
In most other ways Wojo has some catching up to do, he has a 22-30 record on the road, you want to see us be a lot closer to .500 than that.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #213 on: November 19, 2019, 09:53:06 AM »
End of the day, apparently if Wojo can get to a Sweet 16 this year, by winning those two games...he suddenly becomes an accomplished coach...that’s the deal.

It would be a start.

Goose

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #214 on: November 19, 2019, 10:06:50 AM »
Cheeks

A S16 this year would be a miracle coaching job by Wojo. I think making NCAA might take some real coaching from Wojo.

79Warrior

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #215 on: November 19, 2019, 10:13:37 AM »
End of the day, apparently if Wojo can get to a Sweet 16 this year, by winning those two games...he suddenly becomes an accomplished coach...that’s the deal.

That would certainly put him of the pathway.

4everwarriors

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #216 on: November 19, 2019, 10:15:11 AM »
Gettin' inta da Tourney will bee a reel coachin' job, aina?
"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

Ellenson Family Reunion

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #217 on: November 19, 2019, 10:27:49 AM »
Gettin' inta da Tourney will bee a reel coachin' job, aina?

This narrative is bizarre... we have a pre-season 1st team AA, bracketologists generally have us as a 7 seed, and computers have us in the ~20-25 range. Losing to UW sucks 100% of the time and I hate it, but can we all just relax and let some games play out?

4everwarriors

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #218 on: November 19, 2019, 10:49:30 AM »
Ewe watchin' da same teem? Hoo's gonna score wen Howard gets shut down, hey?
"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

Ellenson Family Reunion

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #219 on: November 19, 2019, 10:53:01 AM »
Ewe watchin' da same teem? Hoo's gonna score wen Howard gets shut down, hey?

Damn I must have hallucinated Koby scoring 23 against Purdue & 19 against UW. My bad

4everwarriors

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #220 on: November 19, 2019, 10:54:42 AM »
Good luck wit dat, bro, hey?
"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

rocky_warrior

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #221 on: November 19, 2019, 11:11:04 AM »
Good luck wit dat, bro, hey?

Wow, it must be miserable to be a fan with no optimism. Unsubscribe.

tower912

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #222 on: November 19, 2019, 11:14:06 AM »
Barring injury, Marquette makes the tourney.      It was a November road loss to a P5 conference team.     Brew did a decent dive into how common that is.    It sucked, but Wojo sure as hell didn't invent it.   
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

#UnleashJayce

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #223 on: November 19, 2019, 11:43:47 AM »
Not sure I totally agree.  I’d take some Wade, Denier, Novak, Jackson parts or some James, Mathew, McNeal, Hayward parts right now and trade anyone of our current or former Wojo players for them. (Except maybe Howard and even then I might do it).

In a straight trade I would,take Wade, diener, Novak, Matthews, ncneal, or Hayward in a heart beat over Howard.

panda

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #224 on: November 19, 2019, 11:58:13 AM »
In my opinion, good coaches elevate their team beyond the expected skill set. Good coaches seem to have a “magic” about them that shows when teams find ways to pull out tough games. Buzz’s teams consistently over performed their expectations, found ways to win the tough games and won when it really mattered.

Wojo’s teams seem to crumble when it matters most and have not been better than the sum of their parts.