MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: f/k/a humanlung on November 13, 2019, 09:07:03 PM

Title: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 13, 2019, 09:07:03 PM
SOSDD.  Sorry to say.

And I know it's the first half but it's the same deficiencies we've endured for years now.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: 4everwarriors on November 13, 2019, 09:10:17 PM
Expect a contract extension soon, aina?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: warriors141 on November 13, 2019, 09:11:31 PM
yea, he sucks, no doubt about it
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Warrior of Law on November 13, 2019, 09:14:07 PM
This is the least-skilled team I've seen at MU in years, outside of Markus. Athletes perhaps, but very average basketball players. Tough to watch.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Johnny B on November 13, 2019, 09:15:06 PM
Its shocking that outside of markus no one else seems to be a legit scoring threat. How does that even happen.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: goldeneagle91114 on November 13, 2019, 09:18:07 PM
Its shocking that outside of markus no one else seems to be a legit scoring threat. How does that even happen.

 you lose 2 starters to transfer
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: muguru on November 13, 2019, 09:19:02 PM
This is how I thought they would look offensively a lot of nights..the Hausers, specifically Sam left behind an awful lot of good shooting.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 13, 2019, 09:20:39 PM
Go Wojo!!!
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: 1SE on November 13, 2019, 09:24:35 PM
Turns out Wojo wasn’t “hiding” anything against Loyola eh?

Still another half to play.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 13, 2019, 09:27:48 PM
Embarrassing posts while waiting on a 5* to commit
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Mane'shouse 84 on November 13, 2019, 09:28:22 PM
Embarrassing posts while waiting on a 5* to commit
Agreed. What an idiotic thread.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: 79Warrior on November 13, 2019, 09:28:48 PM
Agrred our skill level is very poor.  Wojo doesnt help in that our offense simply stands around.  We ball screen and nothing else.  Purdue acreen off the ball to free one another.
Have been in wojos camp due to wanting continuity, but at some point it has to be recognized that he sucks.  Wojo needs to be fired, it will be a 5 year rebuild and im not getting any younger but he needs to be fired.

Fire him after two games?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 13, 2019, 09:35:56 PM
Embarrassing posts while waiting on a 5* to commit

Frustration at seeing the same weaknesses endure for years. The mark of a good coach is being able to adapt and adjust. When Wojo starts doing that, I'll stop taking about his deficiencies. Five star recruit waiting or not, this is my opinion. You are welcome to disagree but others are entitled to think differently than you.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 13, 2019, 09:36:54 PM
Fire him after two games?

I know you've been paying attention to the last few years, don't pretend... :)
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 13, 2019, 09:45:36 PM
Frustration at seeing the same weaknesses endure for years. The mark of a good coach is being able to adapt and adjust. When Wojo starts doing that, I'll stop taking about his deficiencies. Five star recruit waiting or not, this is my opinion. You are welcome to disagree but others are entitled to think differently than you.

Maybe wait til the game is over if you really wanna be a jackass?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 13, 2019, 09:45:50 PM
And for the record, I have always thought Wojo was the wrong hire.  I was in the Howland camp 100%.

I also said that I hoped I was wrong. That if I was, I would be the first to admit it and would do a mea culpa here on Scoop.

Unfortunately, despite Wojo's clear talent as a recruiter, his game prep and in game coaching deficiencies are too much.  And his refusal to add a more experienced X's and O's bench coach simply smacks of arrogance at this point.

Fire away haters...
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 13, 2019, 09:49:08 PM
Maybe wait til the game is over if you really wanna be a jackass?

Excellent, well-reasoned reply.  Thank you for your keen insight.

It's not the game or what point in the game where this starts. Again, it's the same mistakes and weaknesses we've seen for years.

I hope it gets better, I sincerely do, but the track record does not have me optimistic.

Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on November 13, 2019, 09:57:12 PM
And for the record, I have always thought Wojo was the wrong hire.  I was in the Howland camp 100%.

I also said that I hoped I was wrong. That if I was, I would be the first to admit it and would do a mea culpa here on Scoop.

Unfortunately, despite Wojo's clear talent as a recruiter, his game prep and in game coaching deficiencies are too much.  And his refusal to add a more experienced X's and O's bench coach simply smacks of arrogance at this point.

Fire away haters...


Being in the Howland camp isn’t really something to be proud of.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Hards_Alumni on November 13, 2019, 10:02:11 PM
This thread has not aged well.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Smokin' Jae on November 13, 2019, 10:02:52 PM
Shut it the f uck down
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 13, 2019, 10:05:02 PM

Being in the Howland camp isn’t really something to be proud of.

Experienced coach. Track record of success. Something to prove. Wanting to leave a legacy where the last bullet point wasn't the UCLA mess.  That was the reasoning.

And prior to the last few years at UCLA, he had a good rep. Wanting redemption can be a powerful thing.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on November 13, 2019, 10:15:26 PM
Experienced coach. Track record of success. Something to prove. Wanting to leave a legacy where the last bullet point wasn't the UCLA mess.  That was the reasoning.

And prior to the last few years at UCLA, he had a good rep. Wanting redemption can be a powerful thing.

It hasn’t worked at MSU
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Johnny B on November 13, 2019, 10:15:42 PM
So..  fire wojo?..
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: whitykj on November 13, 2019, 10:16:32 PM
Archive this thread lol
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 13, 2019, 10:18:17 PM
Excellent, well-reasoned reply.  Thank you for your keen insight.

It's not the game or what point in the game where this starts. Again, it's the same mistakes and weaknesses we've seen for years.

I hope it gets better, I sincerely do, but the track record does not have me optimistic.

Delete this thread jackass
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 13, 2019, 10:18:40 PM
It hasn’t worked at MSU

Not sure I agree. Mississippi State was way lower than we were when he took over and has show steady, consistent improvement.  And the teams play tough as nails.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 13, 2019, 10:20:59 PM
Delete this thread jackass

Did you have to follow up with the same insult?

I expected so much more from someone with a Churchill-like grasp of the English language.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 13, 2019, 10:25:37 PM
Did you have to follow up with the same insult?

I expected so much more from someone with a Churchill-like grasp of the English language.

Embarrassing
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: RushmoreAcademy on November 13, 2019, 10:31:55 PM
Pretty embarrassing that someone posted this after a single half of basketball in the first actual game of the season. 
What a sad person.
Great comeback by these kids. Played with a lot of heart tonight.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 13, 2019, 10:32:12 PM
Embarrassing

The only thing that is embarrassing is that you are the only person who stooped to crass insults in an otherwise civil thread.

If you cannot have a disagreement without resorting to childish profanity perhaps you should run for political office and leave commenting on Scoop to others.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 13, 2019, 10:33:12 PM
The only thing that is embarrassing is that you are the only person who stooped to crass insults in an otherwise civil thread.

If you cannot have a disagreement without resorting to childish profanity perhaps you should run for political office and leave commenting on Scoop to others.

LOL
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Johnny B on November 13, 2019, 10:33:20 PM
The only thing that is embarrassing is that you are the only person who stooped to crass insults in an otherwise civil thread.

If you cannot have a disagreement without resorting to childish profanity perhaps you should run for political office and leave commenting on Scoop to others.
Dude.. just accept you made a fool of yourself. It's ok we've all done it
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: rocky_warrior on November 13, 2019, 10:34:32 PM
The only thing that is embarrassing is that you....

No.  You're embarrassing.  Just suck it up and move on.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 13, 2019, 10:34:54 PM
Pretty embarrassing that someone posted this after a single half of basketball in the first actual game of the season. 
What a sad person.
Great comeback by these kids. Played with a lot of heart tonight.

It was a great comeback, I totally agree.

I posted after one half because I see the exact same deficiencies that have existed for YEARS.  That is very frustrating. 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: real chili 83 on November 13, 2019, 10:37:57 PM
SOSDD.  Sorry to say.

And I know it's the first half but it's the same deficiencies we've endured for years now.

This post makes you Turd of the Week.

Congrats.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Pakuni on November 13, 2019, 10:38:25 PM
It was a great comeback, I totally agree.

I posted after one half because I see the exact same deficiencies that have existed for YEARS.  That is very frustrating.

The smart play at this point is to come back tomorrow morning and claim you were hacked.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 13, 2019, 10:39:11 PM
Everyone, I hope I am totally wrong.

I lived through Bob Dukiet who damn near killed MU hoops, so I enjoy every win we get.  And I think those that share my experience would agree with my sentiment.

But what I saw tonight, I have seen before and that scares me in year 5 under Wojo. He should be better than this at this point.

Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: tower912 on November 13, 2019, 10:40:15 PM
Grinder.   Not whiner.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Markusquette on November 13, 2019, 10:41:14 PM
It was a great comeback, I totally agree.

I posted after one half because I see the exact same deficiencies that have existed for YEARS.  That is very frustrating.

Well, the outcome was decided in the second half. How about praise coach for making great adjustments and firing up his squad. That was a hell of an impressive comeback and win. Really jumped the gun on this topic.

Quote
But what I saw tonight, I have seen before and that scares me in year 5 under Wojo. He should be better than this at this point.

I was not scared at all watching the second half.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 13, 2019, 10:44:53 PM
Well, the outcome was decided in the second half. How about praise coach for making great adjustments and firing up his squad. That was a hell of an impressive comeback and win. Really jumped the gun on this topic.

I was not scared at all watching the second half.

Hope I'm wrong. Let's revisit in late February/early March.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MUCam on November 13, 2019, 10:45:05 PM
Step 1: Knee jerk reaction

Step 2: Validate knee jerk reaction

Step 3: Realize knee jerk reaction was stupid

Step 4: Commit to not accepting responsibility for knee jerk reaction

Step 5: Back track and rationalize disappointment with processes.

Step 6: Get on high horse and ridicule those willing to attack you for stupid knee jerk reaction.

Step 7: Dig in.

Step 7.5: EDIT: Pretend to be high and mighty with statements such as “I hope I’m wrong” also known as “I’m going to tell you so if I’m right later.”

Step 8: Stab someone over a Popeye’s Chicken Sandwich
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: tower912 on November 13, 2019, 10:45:32 PM
Brand new season, same old scoop.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Pakuni on November 13, 2019, 10:45:59 PM
Everyone, I hope I am totally wrong.

I lived through Bob Dukiet who damn near killed MU hoops, so I enjoy every win we get.  And I think those that share my experience would agree with my sentiment.

But what I saw tonight, I have seen before and that scares me in year 5 under Wojo. He should be better than this at this point.

What you saw tonight was a gritty team effort that resulted in a huge comeback victory against a quality opponent.
And Wojo outcoaching the reigning NABC and Big 10 coach of the year.
The fact that you're continuing to whine makes you look so much dumber than your initial post, which at least can be somewhat excused by some heat-of-the-moment frustration.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: TheREALwrk on November 13, 2019, 10:47:52 PM
Everyone, I hope I am totally wrong.

I lived through Bob Dukiet who damn near killed MU hoops, so I enjoy every win we get.  And I think those that share my experience would agree with my sentiment.

But what I saw tonight, I have seen before and that scares me in year 5 under Wojo. He should be better than this at this point.

Loser.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on November 13, 2019, 10:47:56 PM
A second amazing thread...
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: JakeBarnes on November 13, 2019, 10:48:00 PM
This thread is a joke. Please delete.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: BallBoy on November 13, 2019, 10:48:04 PM
Everyone, I hope I am totally wrong.

I lived through Bob Dukiet who damn near killed MU hoops, so I enjoy every win we get.  And I think those that share my experience would agree with my sentiment.

But what I saw tonight, I have seen before and that scares me in year 5 under Wojo. He should be better than this at this point.

You saw a first half team that was rusty and then a second half team shutdown their opponent. The team fought. Played great defense. Law of averages evened out in shooting. You say he hasn’t been able to make adjustments but what would you call the second half on defense. They easily could have folded down 18 but Wojo kept them focused and delivered. Stop trying to prove you are right about Wojo because tonight he was not what you are saying.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on November 13, 2019, 10:48:36 PM
Some great half time adjustments by the coach.  More so, he told Kolby to keep shooting.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on November 13, 2019, 10:49:29 PM
Is @scooptakes still a thing?

This is a sultan-esque digging in on a molehill to die on.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: #UnleashJayce on November 13, 2019, 10:50:38 PM
I'm going to be honest here....


Great win for Mu.

But horrible game plan from wojo. A basic 4-1 with no switches or changes was the offensive mu ran. Great on kobe and Howard for working on it and making it happen. But seriously awful on zero changes besides howard and McEwen themselves.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: fjm on November 13, 2019, 10:55:10 PM
SOSDD.  Sorry to say.

And I know it's the first half but it's the same deficiencies we've endured for years now.

Get this weak sauce outta here you Purdue fan.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: TAMU Garcia on November 13, 2019, 10:55:58 PM
I posted after one half because I see the exact same deficiencies that have existed for YEARS.  That is very frustrating.

Years? Years ago I remember a team that could scorch the nets but was literally one of the three worst defenses in Division 1.

This season I see an elite defense and team that if it struggles anywhere is on offense.

What have you been watching?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: warriorchick on November 13, 2019, 10:59:38 PM
TL;DR.

I was too busy celebrating the win.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 13, 2019, 11:00:46 PM
I will be the first one to admit I am wrong if what we see over the course of the season is consistent with what happened in the second half tonight.

I will be happy to do it as I will have been proven wrong about Wojo and that will mean we had a great year.

I have said this all along.

Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: JakeBarnes on November 13, 2019, 11:02:01 PM
TL;DR.

I was too busy celebrating the win.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MU82 on November 13, 2019, 11:09:16 PM
What you saw tonight was a gritty team effort that resulted in a huge comeback victory against a quality opponent.
And Wojo outcoaching the reigning NABC and Big 10 coach of the year.
The fact that you're continuing to whine makes you look so much dumber than your initial post, which at least can be somewhat excused by some heat-of-the-moment frustration.

Perfectly stated.

Another pathetic "fan."
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: rocky_warrior on November 13, 2019, 11:11:47 PM
Expect a contract extension soon, aina?

Doc, you were quick to jump and reply to this.  What, no praise for the team after this game?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: pbiflyer on November 13, 2019, 11:12:32 PM
Agreed. What an idiotic thread.

Not at all. It was nice of him to create one single thread to ID people to ignore. Also convenient place to explain to newcomers what scoop is in a nutshell..
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: wadesworld on November 13, 2019, 11:13:31 PM
Expect a contract extension soon, aina?

If he lands Dawson then hell yeah.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MU82 on November 13, 2019, 11:15:22 PM
Doc, you were quick to jump and reply to this.  What, no praise for the team after this game?

That's not his M.O.

Doc likes to get the "victory" cigar ready -- which in his case means get ready to celebrate Wojo losing a game, missing a recruit, etc.

He doesn't like to be even remotely supportive, even when we were 23-4 last season, even after a great comeback win like this, even after signing two outstanding recruits.

Because, you know, Wojo ain't Al.

But hey, at least I'll give him some credit. After cheerleading the asinine OP, Doc vamoosed after it was obvious the OP had embarrassed himself.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on November 13, 2019, 11:15:55 PM
If he lands Dawson then hell yeah.

#donedeal
Source: Underboard, Meatheads
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: pbiflyer on November 13, 2019, 11:16:25 PM
Doc, you were quick to jump and reply to this.  What, no praise for the team after this game?

I thought praise or admitting you’re wrong  here is a TOS violation.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: TallTitan34 on November 13, 2019, 11:16:46 PM
Hahaha you f’in trolls jumped the gun on this one.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Archies Bat on November 13, 2019, 11:19:42 PM
At least Lung stayed and owned his comments.  And 4ever has, at times, been up front about his feelings on Wojo.

A lot of other posters on page 1 of this thread are now MIA.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: We R Final Four on November 13, 2019, 11:25:59 PM
Brand new season, same old scoop.
Holy crap...is this true.
Made the mistake of the gameday thread to see if Sacar was concussed...
Haha....I read that the team should be embarrassed because a 5 star recruit maybe watching.
Purdue is in Indiana, right?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: PorkysButthole on November 13, 2019, 11:34:16 PM
Helluva comeback!   Still, Porky shares many of Humanlung’s concerns.  Great teams don’t allow themselves to get down by 18 points in the first half on their home court, and the fact that they allowed themselves to get in that situation in the first place is a big Asterix next to this W as far as Porky is concerned.

Hopefully they just had The first big game jitters.  Wojo said as much in his post game interview with Homer.  He said no disrespect to Loyola but a team like Purdue is on a completely different level and they, having played Texas already had been through a game like that this year already whereas we hadn’t and it took us a half to get acclimated to that level of play.   

Does anyone know why the live stream of the radio broadcast was blacked out on the ESPN app? It never was in previous years and Porky being an East coaster, had to download some tune in radio app that costs 10 bucks a month to listen to the post game interview with Wojo.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: rocky_warrior on November 13, 2019, 11:41:43 PM
Does anyone know why the live stream of the radio broadcast was blacked out on the ESPN app? It never was in previous years and Porky being an East coaster, had to download some tune in radio app that costs 10 bucks a month to listen to the post game interview with Wojo.

Tune In is free - they have a premium option (which is likely the $10/mo), but I don't think you need that to hear the MU games.  Make sure to cancel that. It seems like ESPN stream online hasn't been working well - maybe I missed that contract change....

Anyhow, here's the free Tune In station...
https://tunein.com/radio/Marquette-Basketball-s254041/

Great teams don’t allow themselves to get down by 18 points in the first half on their home court, and the fact that they allowed themselves to get in that situation in the first place is a big Asterix next to this W as far as Porky is concerned.

Well - early season it's hard to figure out how great a team is going to be.  FFS, Kentucky was just embarrassed last night - by Kenpom #169 team (before the win).  Even after Purdue going 1-2, Ken still has them the #9 team (above MU's #13), so I'd expect them to pick it up this year.  MU may still be great this year - no asterisk from me in a win - one that involved a GREAT comeback.

Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: ChitownSpaceForRent on November 13, 2019, 11:43:46 PM
An extremely positive Rocky? What’s going on tonight?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: rocky_warrior on November 13, 2019, 11:49:39 PM
An extremely positive Rocky? What’s going on tonight?

Do you have me confused with hilltopper during one of his low arbys sugar episodes?  I think I'm usually positive and optimistic.  Though I rarely post about hoops, lol.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: ChitownSpaceForRent on November 13, 2019, 11:51:02 PM
Do you have me confused with hilltopper during one of his low arbys sugar episodes?  I think I'm usually positive and optimistic.  Though I rarely post about hoops, lol.

Maybe it was Topper who went on a couple tirades last season.

Self imposed 5 beef and cheddars to the communal fund for my error.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MU82 on November 13, 2019, 11:53:36 PM
Well - early season it's hard to figure out how great a team is going to be.  FFS, Kentucky was just embarrassed last night - by Kenpom #169 team (before the win).  Even after Purdue going 1-2, Ken still has them the #9 team (above MU's #13), so I'd expect them to pick it up this year.  MU may still be great this year - no asterisk from me in a win - one that involved a GREAT comeback.

This.

Great teams lose sometimes, and sometimes they even lose big.

Al's championship team was humiliated a couple of times during the season. Buzz's teams always had a horrible loss or two.

We won the effen game, beat a likely NCAA tourney team from the B14 after falling behind by 18 points. Showed a lot of guts, played some great D, and shot just well enough in the second half. Got nice contributions from several players, and Markus did not try to be a 1-man show.

We had a bad, extended stretch in the first half. Otherwise, a very satisfying win against a good opponent.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: BCHoopster on November 13, 2019, 11:59:35 PM
Certain games you have to win to build your resume, beating Purdue helps.  MU has a great November schedule,  having senior leadership is
important.  McEwen really is a senior, Anim is a grad senior,  Theo a junior,  Markus a senior, Jayce Johnson and Ed Morrow grad seniors.  Bailey
is like 22 as a soph and Cain a junior.  The only player left that played some minutes is Elliott who is soph but a junior as well.  Probably one of
the most experienced teams in the NCAA.  Showed in the second half, teams in the past might have folded.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: TallTitan34 on November 14, 2019, 12:05:19 AM
Helluva comeback!   Still, Porky shares many of Humanlung’s concerns.  Great teams don’t allow themselves to get down by 18 points in the first half on their home court, and the fact that they allowed themselves to get in that situation in the first place is a big Asterix next to this W as far as Porky is concerned.

Hopefully they just had The first big game jitters.  Wojo said as much in his post game interview with Homer.  He said no disrespect to Loyola but a team like Purdue is on a completely different level and they, having played Texas already had been through a game like that this year already whereas we hadn’t and it took us a half to get acclimated to that level of play.   

Does anyone know why the live stream of the radio broadcast was blacked out on the ESPN app? It never was in previous years and Porky being an East coaster, had to download some tune in radio app that costs 10 bucks a month to listen to the post game interview with Wojo.

Audio for all games has been streamable through the Marquette Gameday App.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on November 14, 2019, 12:06:43 AM
Helluva comeback!   Still, Porky shares many of Humanlung’s concerns.  Great teams don’t allow themselves to get down by 18 points in the first half on their home court, and the fact that they allowed themselves to get in that situation in the first place is a big Asterix next to this W as far as Porky is concerned.

Hopefully they just had The first big game jitters.  Wojo said as much in his post game interview with Homer.  He said no disrespect to Loyola but a team like Purdue is on a completely different level and they, having played Texas already had been through a game like that this year already whereas we hadn’t and it took us a half to get acclimated to that level of play.   

Does anyone know why the live stream of the radio broadcast was blacked out on the ESPN app? It never was in previous years and Porky being an East coaster, had to download some tune in radio app that costs 10 bucks a month to listen to the post game interview with Wojo.

Is Kentucky a great team...they never let their opposing team get them down by 18...
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: bradforster on November 14, 2019, 12:19:12 AM
What. A. Comeback.

https://youtu.be/O_IcaERammI
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: BM1090 on November 14, 2019, 12:23:23 AM
I get the frustration but the "same tendencies" part makes no sense. In years 3 and 4 we were elite offensively and terrible defensively. The defense last year and so far this year has been good, and we'll almost certainly be better on offense than defense this year.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: lurch91 on November 14, 2019, 04:28:49 AM
SOSDD.  Sorry to say.

And I know it's the first half but it's the same deficiencies we've endured for years now.

(https://i.imgur.com/smyTC3T.gif?noredirect)
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: 4everwarriors on November 14, 2019, 06:56:04 AM
Doc, you were quick to jump and reply to this.  What, no praise for the team after this game?


Turned da sob off at halftime. Good ta cee Woj adjusted at half. Maebee ders hope, hey?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: tower912 on November 14, 2019, 07:01:55 AM
What is going to happen when MU actually LOSES a game?   
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Uncle Rico on November 14, 2019, 07:05:20 AM
What is going to happen when MU actually LOSES a game?

Willie Warrior will show up
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: tower912 on November 14, 2019, 07:19:09 AM
And their will be the same old wailing, gnashing of teeth, rending of garments and shaking of fists at the sky, grand pronouncements and threats.   Yawn.  This team is going to have a record similar to last year.   Just gonna get there differently.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 14, 2019, 07:35:23 AM
I get the frustration but the "same tendencies" part makes no sense. In years 3 and 4 we were elite offensively and terrible defensively. The defense last year and so far this year has been good, and we'll almost certainly be better on offense than defense this year.

We still need work with perimeter on-ball defense.  Still a lot of blow by dribble penetration.  Was an issue 3-4 years ago and again last season. Much debate at the end of the year over Hauser's leaving and if their departure would be a plus on the defensive end, so there's recent history, too.

Second half rebounding got better but was terrible in first half. That's a repeat issue.

Pick and rolls, defending against Purdue's bigs was, in my opinion, a little shaky. Again, a legacy issue.

These are just some initial observations.

And for those out there who disagree, I am not new to the board. A hack of my accounts necessitated a new name, hence the "f/k/a" in front of my name.  I have well over 2,500 posts on this site if my memory serves me correctly.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Its DJOver on November 14, 2019, 07:39:19 AM
IDK if those are Wojo issues or just the realities of basketball.  There's a reason that nearly every team has a pick'n roll offensive set.  There's a reason that CBB is a guards game.  Our rebounding was poor in the first half, but that second half defensive effort was probably the best under Wojo.  Improving an area that needing improving, seems like the thing a good coach does.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: THRILLHO on November 14, 2019, 07:39:53 AM

And for those out there who disagree, I am not new to the board. A hack of my accounts necessitated a new name, hence the "f/k/a" in front of my name.  I have well over 2,500 posts on this site if my memory serves me correctly.

Thanks for sticking around even after Marquette decided to hire wojo instead of your husband, Mrs. Howland.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MUMUMUMU on November 14, 2019, 07:46:35 AM
Everyone, I hope I am totally wrong.

I lived through Bob Dukiet who damn near killed MU hoops, so I enjoy every win we get.  And I think those that share my experience would agree with my sentiment.

But what I saw tonight, I have seen before and that scares me in year 5 under Wojo. He should be better than this at this point.


Funny...your name is humanlung, but you have no human heart. Be better.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: TheREALwrk on November 14, 2019, 07:50:02 AM
We still need work with perimeter on-ball defense.  Still a lot of blow by dribble penetration.  Was an issue 3-4 years ago and again last season. Much debate at the end of the year over Hauser's leaving and if their departure would be a plus on the defensive end, so there's recent history, too.

Second half rebounding got better but was terrible in first half. That's a repeat issue.

Pick and rolls, defending against Purdue's bigs was, in my opinion, a little shaky. Again, a legacy issue.

These are just some initial observations.

And for those out there who disagree, I am not new to the board. A hack of my accounts necessitated a new name, hence the "f/k/a" in front of my name.  I have well over 2,500 posts on this site if my memory serves me correctly.

Congrats on the 2500 posts buddy... You talk as if that should earn some respect. Grow up man.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on November 14, 2019, 07:51:08 AM
I'm going to be honest here....


Great win for Mu.

But horrible game plan from wojo. A basic 4-1 with no switches or changes was the offensive mu ran. Great on kobe and Howard for working on it and making it happen. But seriously awful on zero changes besides howard and McEwen themselves.


That is false.  Went much more to a pick and roll offense with Koby up top in the second half.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: vogue65 on November 14, 2019, 07:53:02 AM
X's and 0's are highly overrated.
Last night it was almost like wayching coach Wooden coach.
UCLA practiced and ran their stuff, no great need to change and make a lot of "adjustments".
Losers are not prepared, they have no plan so they keep changing their plan.
Winners like Vine Lombardi knew it is all about execution.
I don't ever recall watching MU make such a comeback, congratulations.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Mane'shouse 84 on November 14, 2019, 07:53:59 AM
We still need work with perimeter on-ball defense.  Still a lot of blow by dribble penetration.  Was an issue 3-4 years ago and again last season. Much debate at the end of the year over Hauser's leaving and if their departure would be a plus on the defensive end, so there's recent history, too.

Second half rebounding got better but was terrible in first half. That's a repeat issue.

Pick and rolls, defending against Purdue's bigs was, in my opinion, a little shaky. Again, a legacy issue.

These are just some initial observations.

And for those out there who disagree, I am not new to the board. A hack of my accounts necessitated a new name, hence the "f/k/a" in front of my name.  I have well over 2,500 posts on this site if my memory serves me correctly.
For someone with over 2,500 posts, I think you'd know not to go off the deep end before the third half of the entire season was played!  Was the team playing great the first half?  Obvious answer to that.  But to start a "same old Wojo" thread this early is asinine.
Best of luck with the move out of your Mom's basement.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MUMUMUMU on November 14, 2019, 08:02:48 AM
We still need work with perimeter on-ball defense.  Still a lot of blow by dribble penetration.  Was an issue 3-4 years ago and again last season. Much debate at the end of the year over Hauser's leaving and if their departure would be a plus on the defensive end, so there's recent history, too.

Second half rebounding got better but was terrible in first half. That's a repeat issue.

Pick and rolls, defending against Purdue's bigs was, in my opinion, a little shaky. Again, a legacy issue.

These are just some initial observations.

And for those out there who disagree, I am not new to the board. A hack of my accounts necessitated a new name, hence the "f/k/a" in front of my name.  I have well over 2,500 posts on this site if my memory serves me correctly.

After 2,500 posts, still the same old humanlung. Shocking.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: TAMU Garcia on November 14, 2019, 08:28:22 AM
We still need work with perimeter on-ball defense.  Still a lot of blow by dribble penetration.  Was an issue 3-4 years ago and again last season. Much debate at the end of the year over Hauser's leaving and if their departure would be a plus on the defensive end, so there's recent history, too.

Second half rebounding got better but was terrible in first half. That's a repeat issue.

Pick and rolls, defending against Purdue's bigs was, in my opinion, a little shaky. Again, a legacy issue.

These are just some initial observations.

And for those out there who disagree, I am not new to the board. A hack of my accounts necessitated a new name, hence the "f/k/a" in front of my name.  I have well over 2,500 posts on this site if my memory serves me correctly.

You say our perimeter on ball defense is a legacy issue but last season we were the top defensive team in the Big East. Per synergy our points per possession allowed against isolation plays was in the 86th percentile of all D1 teams.

You say rebounding is a legacy issue but we were one of the top rebounding teams in the Big East last season and we just matched one of the best rebounding teams in the country...without our 7 footer!

You say pick and roll defense is a legacy issue but per synergy last season our points per possession allowed against pick and roll ball handlers was in the 70th percentile and against pick and roll rollers was in the 75th percentile.

What I think I might be happening is that you expect perfect basketball. You see 1 bad half of rebounding, or one defensive lapse against the pick and roll and you start screaming about "legacy issues" because you've seen them before. There not legacy issues, they are issues that every team has from time to time.  That stats don't support what you are saying at all.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: TallTitan34 on November 14, 2019, 08:32:26 AM
I don't ever recall watching MU make such a comeback, congratulations.

2003 at Louisville. That’s the only one I can think of in my time.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 14, 2019, 08:35:37 AM
Congrats on the 2500 posts buddy... You talk as if that should earn some respect. Grow up man.

I'm being accused if being a troll. Thought I should point it out.

Sorry it was so upsetting to you and worthy of special note.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MU82 on November 14, 2019, 08:42:52 AM
You say our perimeter on ball defense is a legacy issue but last season we were the top defensive team in the Big East. Per synergy our points per possession allowed against isolation plays was in the 86th percentile of all D1 teams.

You say rebounding is a legacy issue but we were one of the top rebounding teams in the Big East last season and we just matched one of the best rebounding teams in the country...without our 7 footer!

You say pick and roll defense is a legacy issue but per synergy last season our points per possession allowed against pick and roll ball handlers was in the 70th percentile and against pick and roll rollers was in the 75th percentile.

What I think I might be happening is that you expect perfect basketball. You see 1 bad half of rebounding, or one defensive lapse against the pick and roll and you start screaming about "legacy issues" because you've seen them before. There not legacy issues, they are issues that every team has from time to time.  That stats don't support what you are saying at all.

You said this before I could, TAMU.

This is not a great Marquette team but it has an opportunity to be a good one. Our guys will have stretches of incompetence, and also stretches of outstanding play. Of course, all that is the case for most teams.

Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: THRILLHO on November 14, 2019, 08:43:19 AM
I'm being accused if being a troll. Thought I should point it out.

Sorry it was so upsetting to you and worthy of special note.

Yeah, calling you a troll is giving you too much credit - trolls intentionally make stupid posts to annoy people.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 14, 2019, 08:45:00 AM
You say our perimeter on ball defense is a legacy issue but last season we were the top defensive team in the Big East. Per synergy our points per possession allowed against isolation plays was in the 86th percentile of all D1 teams.

You say rebounding is a legacy issue but we were one of the top rebounding teams in the Big East last season and we just matched one of the best rebounding teams in the country...without our 7 footer!

You say pick and roll defense is a legacy issue but per synergy last season our points per possession allowed against pick and roll ball handlers was in the 70th percentile and against pick and roll rollers was in the 75th percentile.

What I think I might be happening is that you expect perfect basketball. You see 1 bad half of rebounding, or one defensive lapse against the pick and roll and you start screaming about "legacy issues" because you've seen them before. There not legacy issues, they are issues that every team has from time to time.  That stats don't support what you are saying at all.

TAMU, in many respects, you are right. I would take issue with the Big East stats, tho.  Last year the BE was weak, so might not accurately reflect the actual improvement.  That, however, is speculation on my part.

The evidence in the BE tournament and the short stay in the NCAA tournament showed a very different story.

My frustration is that some coaches - O'Neil and Buzz come to mind - get every ounce of effort and talent from their teams.  Others have great talent, knock on the door of real success but never win the big one (Digger, maybe?).  I worry that Wojo is the worst kind, can recruit all kinds of talent but does just enough to not get fired.



Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MU82 on November 14, 2019, 08:46:12 AM

Turned da sob off at halftime. Good ta cee Woj adjusted at half. Maebee ders hope, hey?

This worked out perfectly for you, Doc.

You got to see our guys play poorly in the first half and then you went to bed, letting you have sweet dreams about the failures of the coach you want to fail.

In doing so, you didn't subject yourself to an outstanding half of basketball under the coach you want to fail.

Congrats!
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: baumu on November 14, 2019, 08:50:31 AM
2003 at Louisville. That’s the only one I can think of in my time.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/recap?gameId=320160269 (https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/recap?gameId=320160269)
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 14, 2019, 08:54:38 AM
X's and 0's are highly overrated.
Last night it was almost like wayching coach Wooden coach.
UCLA practiced and ran their stuff, no great need to change and make a lot of "adjustments".
Losers are not prepared, they have no plan so they keep changing their plan.
Winners like Vine Lombardi knew it is all about execution.
I don't ever recall watching MU make such a comeback, congratulations.

UCLA out-talented everyone in a different era.  And Wooden was a great X's and O's coach. He won with great big men, with no big men, any combination.

And Al doesn't win in '77 without Hank doing X's and O's.  That had been well established, even by Al if i remember correctly.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Its DJOver on November 14, 2019, 08:59:38 AM
TAMU, in many respects, you are right. I would take issue with the Big East stats, tho.  Last year the BE was weak, so might not accurately reflect the actual improvement.  That, however, is speculation on my part.

The evidence in the BE tournament and the short stay in the NCAA tournament showed a very different story.

So you're going to disregard the stats using a large sample size and then try to use the stats in a three game sample size to prove your "legacy" point?

Welcome to the internet.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MU82 on November 14, 2019, 09:16:45 AM
My frustration is that some coaches - O'Neil and Buzz come to mind - get every ounce of effort and talent from their teams. .

How much "effort" did Buzz get out of his team that got crushed by Vanderbilt in 2011, annihilated by Florida and beaten by Green Bay in 2012, throttled by Ohio State in 2013, dominated by NC and Fla and Cuse in NCAA tourney games, etc?

I loved having Buzz as our coach, but let's not pretend that he -- and O'Neill and Crean and Al -- didn't preside over any clunkers.

Our guys had a clunker of a first half yesterday, and yes, it included a few times where the Warriors flat got out-worked. I hated seeing that, yelled at my TV a couple of times. We all hate that.

But then our guys played a great second half, totally out-hustled and out-battled a good B14 team. Afterward, several players said Wojo's halftime message was received.

Look, there isn't a single Scooper who doesn't want our program to be great. But to lose one's shyte in the first half of our first real game ... it's simply silly (to use a kinder word than I probably should).

And now you find yourself digging in to justify your silliness.

Can't wait for all the "I told you so's" when we have a clunker and actually lose. Those games will happen. They happened to Buzz and O'Neill, too.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: GOO on November 14, 2019, 09:18:44 AM
TAMU, in many respects, you are right. I would take issue with the Big East stats, tho.  Last year the BE was weak, so might not accurately reflect the actual improvement.  That, however, is speculation on my part.

The evidence in the BE tournament and the short stay in the NCAA tournament showed a very different story.

My frustration is that some coaches - O'Neil and Buzz come to mind - get every ounce of effort and talent from their teams.  Others have great talent, knock on the door of real success but never win the big one (Digger, maybe?).  I worry that Wojo is the worst kind, can recruit all kinds of talent but does just enough to not get fired.

.

We are all biased.  We all see the world through our own filters.  Recognizing one's bias, recognizing the filter we look through and interpret the world through, is always the first step to overcoming and growing.  But only after accepting the bias we possess, can we stop trying to justify our bias and thoughts based upon bias and be freed to see the world as it is, not as we perceive it to be.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Coleman on November 14, 2019, 09:22:35 AM
GREAT WIN!

Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: tower912 on November 14, 2019, 09:25:39 AM
Driving in snow, we are all at the mercy of those who are scared.    Of those who think they are competent, but are actually delusional about their supposed competence.    Of the distracted.    Of those who's tires really need to be replaced but they are too dumb to think that through.   Of those who's nervousness causes them to wrench their steering wheels and overcorrect in a panic when they feel the tires slip a little.     And we all get hung up because of bad drivers.   A metaphor, when you stop to think about it.   
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MU82 on November 14, 2019, 09:34:39 AM
Driving in snow, we are all at the mercy of those who are scared.    Of those who think they are competent, but are actually delusional about their supposed competence.    Of the distracted.    Of those who's tires really need to be replaced but they are too dumb to think that through.   Of those who's nervousness causes them to wrench their steering wheels and overcorrect in a panic when they feel the tires slip a little.     And we all get hung up because of bad drivers.   A metaphor, when you stop to think about it.

We are all biased.  We all see the world through our own filters.  Recognizing one's bias, recognizing the filter we look through and interpret the world through, is always the first step to overcoming and growing.  But only after accepting the bias we possess, can we stop trying to justify our bias and thoughts based upon bias and be freed to see the world as it is, not as we perceive it to be.

Y'all are deep! My mind is totally blown, man!!
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 14, 2019, 10:39:08 AM
How much "effort" did Buzz get out of his team that got crushed by Vanderbilt in 2011, annihilated by Florida and beaten by Green Bay in 2012, throttled by Ohio State in 2013, dominated by NC and Fla and Cuse in NCAA tourney games, etc?

I loved having Buzz as our coach, but let's not pretend that he -- and O'Neill and Crean and Al -- didn't preside over any clunkers.

Our guys had a clunker of a first half yesterday, and yes, it included a few times where the Warriors flat got out-worked. I hated seeing that, yelled at my TV a couple of times. We all hate that.

But then our guys played a great second half, totally out-hustled and out-battled a good B14 team. Afterward, several players said Wojo's halftime message was received.

Look, there isn't a single Scooper who doesn't want our program to be great. But to lose one's shyte in the first half of our first real game ... it's simply silly (to use a kinder word than I probably should).

And now you find yourself digging in to justify your silliness.

Can't wait for all the "I told you so's" when we have a clunker and actually lose. Those games will happen. They happened to Buzz and O'Neill, too.

For crying out loud, I'm talking about overall, not specific games. You are right, every team has clunkers.

Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 14, 2019, 10:40:22 AM
Y'all are deep! My mind is totally blown, man!!

Me, too.  Damn...
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Galway Eagle on November 14, 2019, 10:47:46 AM
For crying out loud, I'm talking about overall, not specific games. You are right, every team has clunkers.

You aren't though. You showed that after responding to TAMU's post saying ignore the BE play and focus on the last three games of the season.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Marquette4life on November 14, 2019, 10:50:56 AM
2003 at Louisville. That’s the only one I can think of in my time.
Number 1 Nova?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MU82 on November 14, 2019, 11:15:40 AM
For crying out loud, I'm talking about overall, not specific games. You are right, every team has clunkers.

You aren't though. You showed that after responding to TAMU's post saying ignore the BE play and focus on the last three games of the season.

What Galway said.

How was our "effort" during our multiple long winning streaks last season? What were the "legacy issues" during our 23-4 start?

Do you really think lack of "effort" was the reason we lost those games at the end of the season? Was the "effort" lousy in that Seton Hall game, which turned into a near-war?

Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: NotAnAlum on November 14, 2019, 12:07:08 PM
First of all the Purdue game last night was a great win.  The guys played tough and several guys (particularly Koby) had to come through in new roles and that is very important in this new season.

I think you can be a fan and be complementary of adjustments Wojo made at half time which had a role in turning around this game without giving Wojo a pass on his offensive game plan in general and having concerns about how things will play out this season if his offensive approach doesn’t change.

I’ve been told that Wojo runs a “flow” offense that doesn’t have a lot of plays and relies on the players to read and react.  I’ve talked to very knowledgeable basketball people including past MU players who tell me players love this kind of offense because of its freedom.  I’m sure that freedom is great with the NBA talent Duke recruits or even a college All Americans like Markus.  But my question is “is this the right offense to win games given the talent Marquette has”.

Matt Painter runs a much more structured offense and you could see it on display last night particularly in the first half.  You can see that his plays are designed to get specific players into positions that are most likely to give them easy shots for what each player does well.  It was obvious in the first half when Purdue got easy shot after easy shot and they went in.  Purdue primarily gets the balls to spots by passing.  They can do that because they know the play and where the other players are expected to be.  In fact while its obvious that MU turned up the defense in the second half Purdue still had a number of clean looks (in general cleaner that MU was getting) they just didn’t go in.  I have a theory on why they missed more in the second half.  Painter wants his guys to play tight in your face defense all the time and in the first half it gave MU fits.  I believe Purdue simply wore down in the second half because its hard to play 40 minutes of tight defense when you are still getting into shape and don’t have the longest bench.  My theory is bolstered by the fact that Purdue pretty much did the same thing last week against Texas getting up by double digits only to lose in the second half.

The only reason I’m going into detail about Purdue is to contrast that to MU.  With our offense it seems like there is often a lot of standing around waiting for the guy with the ball to do something.  There is not nearly as much crisp passing.  Ball movement depends on dribbling not passing and its this dependence on dribbling to advance the ball that leads to MU’s turnover problems.  It also leads to a lot of indecision after the ball handler gets the ball.  You can almost see ? marks hanging over their heads as they try to decide “what should I do next”.

I’m sorry but I’ve got to just say it.  I don’t like MU’s offense under Wojo.  I don’t think it sets up players to play to their strengths while hiding weaknesses.  I don’t think it results in easy baskets against established half court defenses.  And in the end while players will rise to the occasion and make great shots based on pure athletic ability its not a good long term strategy to count on that all the time.  I don’t believe Wojo will change so I’ve just got to hope our talent is good enough to win enough games to make for a good season.

So now its on to Wisconsin where we'll once again so the clash of a disciplined structured offense against Wojo's flow.  I believe MU has more talent and therefore should win.  Lets hope it works out that way.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: tower912 on November 14, 2019, 12:10:43 PM
Ok.  But it has worked well statistically for a number of consecutive years.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: 6746jonesr on November 14, 2019, 12:11:33 PM
Sorry you don't like the offense, but it is hard to blame Wojo for all the missed open shots.  We shot 10% from the 3 point line in the first half.  We shoot 30 per cent ( which is a bit low), it is an entirely different game.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on November 14, 2019, 12:15:38 PM
First of all the Purdue game last night was a great win.  The guys played tough and several guys (particularly Koby) had to come through in new roles and that is very important in this new season.

I think you can be a fan and be complementary of adjustments Wojo made at half time which had a role in turning around this game without giving Wojo a pass on his offensive game plan in general and having concerns about how things will play out this season if his offensive approach doesn’t change.

I’ve been told that Wojo runs a “flow” offense that doesn’t have a lot of plays and relies on the players to read and react.  I’ve talked to very knowledgeable basketball people including past MU players who tell me players love this kind of offense because of its freedom.  I’m sure that freedom is great with the NBA talent Duke recruits or even a college All Americans like Markus.  But my question is “is this the right offense to win games given the talent Marquette has”.


Wojo got it from Coach K...who got it from Bobby Knight.  A motion offense that gives players the ability to move and react IMO is the best offense to use when you have experienced and talented offensive players.  But it also can take awhile before it is running smoothly, which has happened in the last couple of years.  (tower mentioned it somewhere) 


I’m sorry but I’ve got to just say it.  I don’t like MU’s offense under Wojo.  I don’t think it sets up players to play to their strengths while hiding weaknesses.  I don’t think it results in easy baskets against established half court defenses.

Wojo's offenses have been great since he has been here.  I think the problem in the half court has to do with a lack of players who can beat someone off the dribble and an over reliance on those who can shoot.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: oldwarrior81 on November 14, 2019, 12:18:44 PM
without the 18 second chance points, the Purdue offense was quite ineffective last night.  Scoring 37 points in 40 minutes.


I also looked over at a couple Mississippi State fan sites to get their feel for Ben Howland.  Funny to read that there are a few that are getting annoyed with the weave they run on top.  One saying their offense looks like something from the pre-shot clock days.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: NickelDimer on November 14, 2019, 12:44:20 PM
Having read through the entire thread I can honestly say some of the shots taken at fka are more embarrassing than his original post.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: RushmoreAcademy on November 14, 2019, 01:04:36 PM
Having read through the entire thread I can honestly say some of the shots taken at fka are more embarrassing than his original post.

That's simply not true.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Coleman on November 14, 2019, 01:26:49 PM
Having read through the entire thread I can honestly say some of the shots taken at fka are more embarrassing than his original post.

nah
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 14, 2019, 01:41:41 PM
You said this before I could, TAMU.

This is not a great Marquette team but it has an opportunity to be a good one. Our guys will have stretches of incompetence, and also stretches of outstanding play. Of course, all that is the case for most teams.

Yes, let the team get their seas legs and chemistry before jumping off the deep end. 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MU82 on November 14, 2019, 02:02:58 PM
One NCAA tourney win in Howland's last 8 years -- 4 at UCLA and 4 at MSU. Three seasons that failed to produce a winning record in that span. Zero NCAA tourney wins in his last 6 years. Only NCAA tourney appearance at MSU resulted in loss to Liberty. His final game as UCLA coach was 20-point tourney loss to an 11-seed.

Hiring a desperate retread with some skeletons in the closet would not have been good for our program. I wonder if Howland was even considered by MU brass. I hope not.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on November 14, 2019, 02:08:57 PM
Fans be fansing

It’s what they do.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on November 14, 2019, 02:09:55 PM
Having read through the entire thread I can honestly say some of the shots taken at fka are more embarrassing than his original post.

Some of the shots taken at Wojo and some players in the game thread are worse than both.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 15, 2019, 04:18:54 PM
What Galway said.

How was our "effort" during our multiple long winning streaks last season? What were the "legacy issues" during our 23-4 start?

Do you really think lack of "effort" was the reason we lost those games at the end of the season? Was the "effort" lousy in that Seton Hall game, which turned into a near-war?

This isn't about "effort".  I used that term only to highlight that some coaches get the max out of the talent they have.  Others, like Wojo to this point, do not.  My comments have NOTHING to do with the players and their effort.  Nor are the comments related to expecting perfection - these are kids and they are going to have off days. 

My comments are 100% about the coach - his abilities (recruiting) and deficiencies.  A good coach is able to correct weak spots and adjust when needed.  Wojo did a good job vs. Purdue (and I hope it continues) but if we are all being honest, have adjustments been his strong suit? 

To his ability to correct weak spots and how it relates to the 23-4 start last year - and I am not trying to fight with you here - are you trying to say that we did not have fairly consistent problems with:

1) man-to-man defense
2) rebounding on both ends
3) getting decent shots, especially when Markus wasn't on the floor
4) defensive rotations
5) not-entirely-crisp passing resulting in turnovers

We had players make incredible efforts last year - Markus and Sam (offensively) and Theo and Sacar (defensively), to name a handful - during points of the season that helped us win games we probably shouldn't have.  If I recall correctly, there was some metric that indicated MU was far "luckier" early in the season that could reasonably be expected.  Unfortunately, we returned to the mean later in the year.

Many of the issues I listed have been around for the last few years and this is what I am highlighting.  People have said 3 or 4 years ago we had poor defense but that the last two seasons was much improved.  And someone, appropriately, pointed out some of these stats.  That said, and correct me if I am wrong, but aren't some of the things on the above list problems that sill plagued us last season (and were apparent in the Purdue game for periods of time)?  We have had a bunch of different player and the same weaknesses.  That is not a player thing, that's a coach thing.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 15, 2019, 04:42:24 PM

Wojo got it from Coach K...who got it from Bobby Knight.  A motion offense that gives players the ability to move and react IMO is the best offense to use when you have experienced and talented offensive players.  But it also can take awhile before it is running smoothly, which has happened in the last couple of years.  (tower mentioned it somewhere) 


Wojo's offenses have been great since he has been here.  I think the problem in the half court has to do with a lack of players who can beat someone off the dribble and an over reliance on those who can shoot.

Are u frickin kidding me Fluffy.  Wojo and coach ks offense in no way shape or form even comes close to being similar to knights motion offense.  Nothing even close.  Completely diferent ,  the coach knight offense was a true motion.  Purdue ran some of the same,  knights offense rarely if ever set a ball screen.  Knights motion consisted of screening away and setting numerous ball screens off the ball.  Again almost never a ball screen.  MUs is mostly ball  screen dependent trying to create mismatches and help side recovery.
Truly an absolutely horrible post to compare what MU and Duke run to what knight ran.  Just really stupid.  Both effective but entirely, completely different. Wow
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Galway Eagle on November 15, 2019, 04:46:52 PM
Are u frickin kidding me Fluffy.  Wojo and coach ks offense in no way shape or form even comes close to being similar to knights motion offense.  Nothing even close.  Completely diferent ,  the coach knight offense was a true motion.  Purdue ran some of the same,  knights offense rarely if ever set a ball screen.  Knights motion consisted of screening away and setting numerous ball screens off the ball.  Again almost never a ball screen.  MUs is mostly ball  screen dependent trying to create mismatches and help side recovery.
Truly an absolutely horrible post to compare what MU and Duke run to what knight ran.  Just really stupid.  Both effective but entirely, completely different. Wow

Are you able to comment without insulting people? I'm truly curious
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 15, 2019, 04:49:17 PM
Are u frickin kidding me Fluffy.  Wojo and coach ks offense in no way shape or form even comes close to being similar to knights motion offense.  Nothing even close.  Completely diferent ,  the coach knight offense was a true motion.  Purdue ran some of the same,  knights offense rarely if ever set a ball screen.  Knights motion consisted of screening away and setting numerous ball screens off the ball.  Again almost never a ball screen.  MUs is mostly ball  screen dependent trying to create mismatches and help side recovery.
Truly an absolutely horrible post to compare what MU and Duke run to what knight ran.  Just really stupid.  Both effective but entirely, completely different. Wow

Yeah I would argue that Wojo's is much more akin to the modern pro game with all of the ball screens and trying to create space with the 3-ball "gravity"

Aesthetically, I prefer a true motion with the off-ball action you mentioned, but I will take whatever is effective and his offenses have definitely been effective. It's also likely more appealing to the higher end recruit, and more effective with those types as well.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: IrwinFletcher on November 15, 2019, 05:07:26 PM
Got to love how this board has a 7 page topic about our “terrible” coach when we are in the final stages of a huge, impact recruit.

Well done fellas.  Well done.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 15, 2019, 05:17:51 PM
Are you able to comment without insulting people? I'm truly curious

Too dumb not to call out, but generally no.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Galway Eagle on November 15, 2019, 05:21:36 PM
Too dumb not to call out, but generally no.

Generally no you are not able to comment without insulting?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 15, 2019, 05:21:48 PM
Yeah I would argue that Wojo's is much more akin to the modern pro game with all of the ball screens and trying to create space with the 3-ball "gravity"

Aesthetically, I prefer a true motion with the off-ball action you mentioned, but I will take whatever is effective and his offenses have definitely been effective. It's also likely more appealing to the higher end recruit, and more effective with those types as well.

Agree, i think a well run motion is a joy to watch.  The old motions were awesome.  But whatever works, shot clocks have had a major major effect too.  Im more interested in what gets Ws versus the Xs n Os.  As a great coach once said its more about the Jimmys n Joes than the Xs n Os.  Bad coaches forget this.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 15, 2019, 05:23:13 PM
Generally no you are not able to comment without insulting?

Reading comprehension: A
How’s that?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Johnny B on November 15, 2019, 05:24:04 PM
This boards a broken record that's been spinning for years
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Galway Eagle on November 15, 2019, 05:25:39 PM
Reading comprehension: A
How’s that?

Cheerful. At least you're honest.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 15, 2019, 05:27:56 PM
As the day is long, doesnt go over well in the crying room.  Others appreciate it.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MU82 on November 15, 2019, 07:18:38 PM
Are you able to comment without insulting people? I'm truly curious

At least he managed to get through that 3rd-grade-level-written paragraph without insulting a half dozen college athletes on his supposedly favorite team, so maybe he's making progress.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: News: Garcia dreams MU on November 15, 2019, 08:47:00 PM
Helluva comeback!   Still, Porky shares many of Humanlung’s concerns.  Great teams don’t allow themselves to get down by 18 points in the first half on their home court, and the fact that they allowed themselves to get in that situation in the first place is a big Asterix next to this W as far as Porky is concerned.

Hopefully they just had The first big game jitters.  Wojo said as much in his post game interview with Homer.  He said no disrespect to Loyola but a team like Purdue is on a completely different level and they, having played Texas already had been through a game like that this year already whereas we hadn’t and it took us a half to get acclimated to that level of play.   

Does anyone know why the live stream of the radio broadcast was blacked out on the ESPN app? It never was in previous years and Porky being an East coaster, had to download some tune in radio app that costs 10 bucks a month to listen to the post game interview with Wojo.
Don't use premium they put it up as if you need, hit X!
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 15, 2019, 10:45:16 PM
Don't use premium they put it up as if you need, hit X!

Porky ur taking it in the pork hole.  Have been using tuned in for yeeeeears it absolutely free.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on November 16, 2019, 08:20:42 AM
Are u frickin kidding me Fluffy.  Wojo and coach ks offense in no way shape or form even comes close to being similar to knights motion offense.  Nothing even close.  Completely diferent ,  the coach knight offense was a true motion.  Purdue ran some of the same,  knights offense rarely if ever set a ball screen.  Knights motion consisted of screening away and setting numerous ball screens off the ball.  Again almost never a ball screen.  MUs is mostly ball  screen dependent trying to create mismatches and help side recovery.
Truly an absolutely horrible post to compare what MU and Duke run to what knight ran.  Just really stupid.  Both effective but entirely, completely different. Wow

Didn’t say they were the same. I said they were relying on motion.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Lennys Tap on November 16, 2019, 09:23:32 AM
Didn’t say they were the same. I said they were relying on motion.

As opposed to those offenses that rely on standing in one place? LOL. You were busted, just admit it.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: hairy worthen on November 16, 2019, 09:44:03 AM
Didn’t say they were the same. I said they were relying on motion.
you have no problem nit picking other people's posts. Take some of your iwn medicine
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: real chili 83 on November 16, 2019, 10:07:07 AM

No. As opposed to running multiple set plays like Painter does. Which was the original point. Wojo runs a read and react motion offense. Coach K does the same thing. Knight did the same thing. I never claimed they were the same exact offense.

Glad to see you’re still my little b*tch though.

Such harsh language.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: tower912 on November 16, 2019, 10:14:40 AM
Badger week.   Hated enemy, 26 hours away, and this crap continues.   
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on November 16, 2019, 10:24:52 AM
you have no problem nit picking other people's posts. Take some of your iwn medicine

*You

*own
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on November 16, 2019, 10:30:26 AM
Badger week.   Hated enemy, 26 hours away, and this crap continues.   

Yep.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Galway Eagle on November 16, 2019, 10:34:26 AM
Badger week.   Hated enemy, 26 hours away, and this crap continues.   

It's like being at an awkward family party that you keep returning to every day.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: tower912 on November 16, 2019, 10:48:13 AM
Until you don't.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Loose Cannon on November 16, 2019, 10:53:59 AM
Got to love how this board has a 7 page topic about our “terrible” coach when we are in the final stages of a huge, impact recruit.

Well done fellas.  Well done.

Yep, some have a different size of the Big picture.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on November 16, 2019, 11:04:28 AM
Got to love how this board has a 7 page topic about our “terrible” coach when we are in the final stages of a huge, impact recruit.

Well done fellas.  Well done.

Yup...but that’s how some folks roll
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Mane'shouse 84 on November 16, 2019, 11:12:19 AM

No. As opposed to running multiple set plays like Painter does. Which was the original point.
If you're going to be someone who nit picks, you should actually include verbs in your sentences.  But I guess, as others have pointed out, nit picking only can flow from the Pope.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 17, 2019, 02:21:45 PM
Bump.

Because I took a lot of heat for this thread at halftime of Purdue.  And because this season sure does look like SOSDD from Wojo and his staff.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: BM1090 on November 17, 2019, 02:23:49 PM
Bump.

Because I took a lot of heat for this thread at halftime of Purdue.  And because this season sure does look like SOSDD from Wojo and his staff.

Lol
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: TAMU Garcia on November 17, 2019, 02:24:30 PM
Bump.

Because I took a lot of heat for this thread at halftime of Purdue.  And because this season sure does look like SOSDD from Wojo and his staff.

Again, what is the SOSDD you are referring to? Cause you gave examples before and the stats don't support what you are saying.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 17, 2019, 02:35:53 PM
Again, what is the SOSDD you are referring to? Cause you gave examples before and the stats don't support what you are saying.

TAMU, I have no doubt the stats were correct.  But as we can all see with our own eyes, we continue to have problems with:

1) defensive rotations, usually leaving someone wide open at the 3 point line
2) rebounding
3) on ball defense
4) turnovers
5) lack of offensive flow, especially if Markus is on the bench (or like today when he was just off)
6) lack of adjustments on both ends - today, especially on the offensive end
7) and would it kill us to hit one of our big guys off a screen/pick-n-roll once in a while?

These have all been issues through Wojo's tenure, no matter who the personnel are.

We have gotten better on the defensive end - Rowsey and the Hauser's were never going to be lock down defenders - but there are still big holes that good (and after today, decent) teams can exploit.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: goldeneagle91114 on November 17, 2019, 02:55:04 PM
I said it in another thread but, we really missed the Hauser brothers today.

In terms of wojo - sadly he was building for this year. Then he lost control of the locker room and the wheels fell off. This years team now has the make up of a year 2/3 rebuild: one focal point, some other decent transfers, and a few role players. However the team doesn’t have the continuity of a group that has played together for years, which is an important part to have a successful season.

 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: TAMU Garcia on November 17, 2019, 02:55:37 PM
TAMU, I have no doubt the stats were correct.  But as we can all see with our own eyes, we continue to have problems with:

1) defensive rotations, usually leaving someone wide open at the 3 point line
2) rebounding
3) on ball defense
4) turnovers
5) lack of offensive flow, especially if Markus is on the bench (or like today when he was just off)
6) lack of adjustments on both ends - today, especially on the offensive end
7) and would it kill us to hit one of our big guys off a screen/pick-n-roll once in a while?

These have all been issues through Wojo's tenure, no matter who the personnel are.

We have gotten better on the defensive end - Rowsey and the Hauser's were never going to be lock down defenders - but there are still big holes that good (and after today, decent) teams can exploit.

So again, problems that every team has at different points but aren't actually bigger issues for us than the average team?

I was going to give you #7 but then I remembered for the first three years Luke Fischer was one of our top scorers so even that one isn't a "legacy issue" as you put it.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: CountryRoads on November 17, 2019, 03:00:29 PM
I said it in another thread but, we really missed the Hauser brothers today.

In terms of wojo - sadly he was building for this year. Then he lost control of the locker room and the wheels fell off. This years team now has the make up of a year 2/3 rebuild: one focal point, some other decent transfers, and a few role players. However the team doesn’t have the continuity of a group that has played together for years, which is an important part to have a successful season.

 

Unfortunately, I think the 2/3 year rebuild starts next year. This is still supposed to be *the* year.

Also, I’m starting to question the decision of not RSing Torrence. Not really seeing at all where he will be able to get minutes.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 17, 2019, 03:05:33 PM
So again, problems that every team has at different points but aren't actually bigger issues for us than the average team?

I was going to give you #7 but then I remembered for the first three years Luke Fischer was one of our top scorers so even that one isn't a "legacy issue" as you put it.

TAMU, accurate point with Luke. But last couple years and this year it's almost like it doesn't matter how open the bigs are, they aren't getting the ball. Not sure if that's the system or an inability of the guards to make the pass but it has to change.  If nothing else, involving the bigs even a little will take some focus off the perimeter shooters.

On the other items, the concern is that these are chronic issues that never get corrected.  Not during the season or from season to season.  It's like watching Wayne Fontes coach...
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Small Orange Soda on November 17, 2019, 03:08:23 PM
Unfortunately, I think the 2/3 year rebuild starts next year. This is still supposed to be *the* year.

And it still could be, it's only one loss.  But all the complaints about Wojo were countered with a nod at the team he was building for this season.  It's frustrating.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: muhoops1 on November 17, 2019, 03:36:05 PM
I said it in another thread but, we really missed the Hauser brothers today.

In terms of wojo - sadly he was building for this year. Then he lost control of the locker room and the wheels fell off. This years team now has the make up of a year 2/3 rebuild: one focal point, some other decent transfers, and a few role players. However the team doesn’t have the continuity of a group that has played together for years, which is an important part to have a successful season.

 
Which by the way has been the overriding theme of his tenure.  He’s always had an unbalanced, odd roster.  He acquiesced to one player and now he is in this boat.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: WhiteTrash on November 17, 2019, 03:37:54 PM
Unfortunately, I think the 2/3 year rebuild starts next year. This is still supposed to be *the* year.
I have good reason to believe that Wojo will not get 3 years to rebuild.

For the record, I did and still do support the extension he received. 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: goldeneagle91114 on November 17, 2019, 03:59:32 PM
I have good reason to believe that Wojo will not get 3 years to rebuild.

For the record, I did and still do support the extension he received.

If he lands Dawson I’d advocate to give him 2 more years. If not, cut losses after the season because next year will for sure be a rebuild
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: NickelDimer on November 17, 2019, 04:04:18 PM
If he lands Dawson I’d advocate to give him 2 more years. If not, cut losses after the season because next year will for sure be a rebuild
Yeah if we lose out on Dawson and have another disappointing season I’d advocate moving on
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: TallTitan34 on November 18, 2019, 11:05:39 AM
3/10/11 vs Louisville L 56-81
3/25/11 vs. North Carolina L 63-81
12/29/11 vs Vanderbilt L 57-74
2/4/12 vs. Notre Dame L 59-76
11/29/12 vs. Florida L 49-82
2/3/13 vs. Louisville L 51-70
3/30/13 vs. Syracuse L 39-55

All games in the Buzz Williams era.  All Marquette teams that eventually made the Sweet Sixteen or farther.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Goose on November 18, 2019, 11:13:43 AM
TallTitan

The level of talent on Buzz's teams is light years ahead of this years squad. Not really what your point is in sharing this info. The program is trending down after treading water for last 4-5 years and throwing out bad Buzz losses seems crazy to me.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: JakeBarnes on November 18, 2019, 11:15:41 AM
Bump.

Because I took a lot of heat for this thread at halftime of Purdue.  And because this season sure does look like SOSDD from Wojo and his staff.

Ah look, it's the guy that cares more about saying "I told you so"
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 18, 2019, 12:05:04 PM
If he lands Dawson I’d advocate to give him 2 more years. If not, cut losses after the season because next year will for sure be a rebuild

What if he loses out on Dawson but lands Karim Mane and a stretch PF grad transfer along the lines of a Katin Reinhardt? I understand the sentiment but a laser focus on Dawson's decision doesn't make a ton of sense to me.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 18, 2019, 12:23:18 PM
TallTitan

The level of talent on Buzz's teams is light years ahead of this years squad. Not really what your point is in sharing this info. The program is trending down after treading water for last 4-5 years and throwing out bad Buzz losses seems crazy to me.

The point is in real time you were not saying “look at all this NBA talent on the floor and we are still losing?, fire Buzz!”   You have the ability to look back on it now and say there was NBA talent. 

Look I don’t know if Howard or anyone else on our team will sniff the NBA and maybe they won’t.  In fact I agree that we are probably lacking in “NBA talent”.  But don’t pretend like you don’t get the point.  It is a pretty easy point to get.

Having said that I get your point as well.  By mid season if this year is a disaster I will be very much on your side of the argument.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Goose on November 18, 2019, 01:19:54 PM
Shooter

I, and many folks, knew Buzz had talent on the floor every year. In another post post someone suggested that Joey's ceiling at MS is being another Jamil Wilson and what is the problem with that? Give me a Jamil, a Vander, a Jae, a Jimmy and DJO and I will gladly blow off a horrible performance against a poor team in November.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: GOO on November 18, 2019, 01:32:01 PM
Third game, and conclusions are draw based on one's bias, for or against.
Need more time to see what transpires this year.  I for one remain positive on this team, and that is my bias. But I know the world that my glasses want to see and the light they let in. Helps to keep some perspective. 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 18, 2019, 01:37:10 PM
I would be disingenuous if I did not say I was more excited with the talent we had back then than we do now, even in real time.  But was not thinking NBA talent except for Jae.  Loved Jimmy but was not as sure about him being NBA caliber until Senior year.  The rest were just high level NCAA players and that is ok.  They developed well and it led to some really good years.

I’m hoping that some of the guys on our current team develop into high level NCAA players.  I also hope that Wojo can still land an outstanding recruiting class.  If it doesn’t happen this year the writing is on the wall.  Writing that many saw way earlier than me.  Can’t wait forever.     
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Goose on November 18, 2019, 01:49:41 PM
Shooter

I agree that I did not project multiple Buzz guys to make millions in the NBA, but I did know they were high level college basketball players at the time. Many on here are waiting for GE, BB and Cain to make the big jump on the court and I hope so as well. That said, it is doubtful any of those guys are making someone forget Jae, Wilson, DJO, Vander and Co.. Sadly, the truth is that there is more hoping for upside rapid improvement than accomplished basketball player at MU.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: willie warrior on November 18, 2019, 03:22:56 PM
Third game, and conclusions are draw based on one's bias, for or against.
Need more time to see what transpires this year.  I for one remain positive on this team, and that is my bias. But I know the world that my glasses want to see and the light they let in. Helps to keep some perspective.
Yes, more time is needed. After all we have only has 5 plus years, or is it6? Time does fly when you are having fun.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 18, 2019, 04:07:46 PM
3/10/11 vs Louisville L 56-81
3/25/11 vs. North Carolina L 63-81
12/29/11 vs Vanderbilt L 57-74
2/4/12 vs. Notre Dame L 59-76
11/29/12 vs. Florida L 49-82
2/3/13 vs. Louisville L 51-70
3/30/13 vs. Syracuse L 39-55

All games in the Buzz Williams era.  All Marquette teams that eventually made the Sweet Sixteen or farther.

2011-2012 teams you mentioned (final records unless i misread something):

Louisville (30-10) - went to Final Four
North Carolina (32-6) - Elite 8
Vandy (25-11) - Sweet 16
Florida (26-11) - Elite 8
Syracuse (34-3) - Elite 8

Are we saying that 2019-2020 Purdue and Wisconsin are in the same caliber of teams as those in the list you posted?  If you aren't, then this comp is not meaningful, imo.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 18, 2019, 04:10:14 PM
Ah look, it's the guy that cares more about saying "I told you so"

Yeah.  That's exactly it.  I've been found out.  Damn...
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: BM1090 on November 18, 2019, 05:51:13 PM
2011-2012 teams you mentioned (final records unless i misread something):

Louisville (30-10) - went to Final Four
North Carolina (32-6) - Elite 8
Vandy (25-11) - Sweet 16
Florida (26-11) - Elite 8
Syracuse (34-3) - Elite 8

Are we saying that 2019-2020 Purdue and Wisconsin are in the same caliber of teams as those in the list you posted?  If you aren't, then this comp is not meaningful, imo.

Vandy lost to Wisconsin in the 2nd round. They haven't made a S16 since 2007. Syracuse game was in the tournament against us to go to the F4. I believe the other ones are accurate.

I'd guess Purdue and Wisconsin are NCAA caliber teams, might win a game. Won't get to the 2nd weekend. Purdue is the wild card because they could improve a lot as the year goes on, but the team we played is probably a top 30 team.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 18, 2019, 06:40:02 PM
Vandy lost to Wisconsin in the 2nd round. They haven't made a S16 since 2007. Syracuse game was in the tournament against us to go to the F4. I believe the other ones are accurate.

I'd guess Purdue and Wisconsin are NCAA caliber teams, might win a game. Won't get to the 2nd weekend. Purdue is the wild card because they could improve a lot as the year goes on, but the team we played is probably a top 30 team.

Nice catch on Vandy. 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 18, 2019, 06:43:30 PM
I would be disingenuous if I did not say I was more excited with the talent we had back then than we do now, even in real time.  But was not thinking NBA talent except for Jae.  Loved Jimmy but was not as sure about him being NBA caliber until Senior year.  The rest were just high level NCAA players and that is ok.  They developed well and it led to some really good years.

I’m hoping that some of the guys on our current team develop into high level NCAA players.  I also hope that Wojo can still land an outstanding recruiting class.  If it doesn’t happen this year the writing is on the wall.  Writing that many saw way earlier than me.  Can’t wait forever.     

I feel the same way.  Back then, you pretty much knew that playing MU was going to be a dogfight.  WHILE THERE WERE OCCASIONAL BAD GAMES, it was pretty much a given.  That kind of toughness, in my opinion, is fun to watch.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on November 18, 2019, 07:23:14 PM
I feel the same way.  Back then, you pretty much knew that playing MU was going to be a dogfight.  WHILE THERE WERE OCCASIONAL BAD GAMES, it was pretty much a given.  That kind of toughness, in my opinion, is fun to watch.

It amazes me how dull our memories get when pining for the past...a human condition.  I’m guilty of it as well. 

Define dogfight.  I can rattle off plenty of games under each coach that were major stinkers and others we won where it was anything but a dogfight or what appeared like extreme effort.  Part of sports and kids 18-22...you don’t always get what you are hoping for.  Or, times where we did max out on effort but just could not shoot if our lives depended on it.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Lennys Tap on November 18, 2019, 08:11:09 PM
I can rattle of plenty of games under each coach that were major stinkers and others we won where it was anything but a dogfight or what appeared like extreme effort.

Of course every coach has clunkers and every coach has big wins. It's the ratio of big wins to clunkers that puts coaches on a scale that goes from hall of fame worthy to the unemployment line. And on that scale (at least as of now) Wojo is light years behind Al, miles behind Buzz and solidly behind KO and Crean. Hope he can move into that group (I mean that, I like the guy), but even Mrs Wojo would admit 5+ years in he has some serious catching up to do.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: BM1090 on November 18, 2019, 10:24:57 PM
Of course every coach has clunkers and every coach has big wins. It's the ratio of big wins to clunkers that puts coaches on a scale that goes from hall of fame worthy to the unemployment line. And on that scale (at least as of now) Wojo is light years behind Al, miles behind Buzz and solidly behind KO and Crean. Hope he can move into that group (I mean that, I like the guy), but even Mrs Wojo would admit 5+ years in he has some serious catching up to do.

Really only 3 clunkers the past two years.

@Indiana, @UW, @SJU.

Twice the first road game. Once the first conference game. 1 to 2 clunkers per year is completely normal. It was obviously much more common pre-2018
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 18, 2019, 10:27:37 PM
Really only 3 clunkers the past two years.

@Indiana, @UW, @SJU.

Twice the first road game. Once the first conference game. 1 to 2 clunkers per year is completely normal. It was obviously much more common pre-2018

Murray State in NCAA Tournament doesn't make the list? 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Johnny B on November 18, 2019, 10:31:45 PM
Murray State in NCAA Tournament doesn't make the list?
What's your username supposee to mean?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Lennys Tap on November 18, 2019, 10:41:43 PM
Murray State in NCAA Tournament doesn't make the list?

Huge clunker. Losing at home to a poor Georgetown team with the Big East title on the line qualifies, too.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on November 18, 2019, 10:42:30 PM
Of course every coach has clunkers and every coach has big wins. It's the ratio of big wins to clunkers that puts coaches on a scale that goes from hall of fame worthy to the unemployment line. And on that scale (at least as of now) Wojo is light years behind Al, miles behind Buzz and solidly behind KO and Crean. Hope he can move into that group (I mean that, I like the guy), but even Mrs Wojo would admit 5+ years in he has some serious catching up to do.

Miles?  Solidly behind? 


This is Wojo’s 6th season, he took over far far less of a team than Buzz did.  Despite this, here are the clunkers from Buzz’s 6th year to compare apples to apples.

Buzz’s 6th year

Lost by 17 to Ohio State where we managed all of 35 points
Lost by 18 at Creighton
Lost by 15 at St John’s
Lost by 15 at home to Creighton
Beat DePaul by 2 in OT
Lost by 17 at Villanova

I’ll keep out the New Mexico and San Diego near double digit losses.  Now, some of these losses were to ranked teams, some weren’t....my point is our memories dull pretty quickly.  Happy to provide other examples in other years.



Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on November 18, 2019, 10:48:43 PM
Buzz’s fifth year

Lost to Florida by 33.  Is this the example of dog fight Humanlung?
Lost at UW Green Bay
Lost at Louisville by 19
Lost Notre Dame by 10

Etc


Some great wins, some bad losses.   Memories are fading folks....
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Lennys Tap on November 18, 2019, 11:00:20 PM
Miles?  Solidly behind? 


This is Wojo’s 6th season, he took over far far less of a team than Buzz did.  Despite this, here are the clunkers from Buzz’s 6th year to compare apples to apples.

Buzz’s 6th year

Lost by 17 to Ohio State where we managed all of 35 points
Lost by 18 at Creighton
Lost by 15 at St John’s
Lost by 15 at home to Creighton
Beat DePaul by 2 in OT
Lost by 17 at Villanova

I’ll keep out the New Mexico and San Diego near double digit losses.  Now, some of these losses were to ranked teams, some weren’t....my point is our memories dull pretty quickly.  Happy to provide other examples in other years.

Through 5 years Buzz had 8 NCAA tournament wins. But since you're all about what Buzz and Wojo "inherited" let's ignore years one and two. In years 3-5, without any Crean holdovers, Buzz won 7 NCAA tournament games, had 2 14-4 seasons in the old (much tougher) Big East and a Big East Conference championship.

In his years 3-5, Wojo won zero NCAA tournament games and zero new Big East (much softer) titles.

So, 7-3, S16, S16, E8 with his own guys > 0-2 with his own guys (both blowouts, one as a favorite, one as a pick'em). By a lot of  miles.

As I said (and you never addressed) big wins on the big stage mitigate the clunkers that all coaches (including the great ones) have. In that regard Wojo's resume' is very thin.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on November 18, 2019, 11:04:39 PM
Through 5 years Buzz had 8 NCAA tournament wins (7 with out any Crean holdovers in 3 years). He also had 2 14-4 seasons in the old much tougher) Big East and a Big East Conference championship (both without any of Crean's players).

What Wojo has done in his first 5 years (and more importantly in 3 years with his own guys) is miles behind.

7-3, S16, S16, E8 with your own guys > 0-2 (both blowouts, one as a favorite, one as a pick'em). By miles.

You are proving my point.  You basically are forgiving really bad losses because went on tournament runs, essentially voiding them out as if they didn’t happen.  But they did.

Some absolute stinkers, in some cases with four future NBA players on the squad.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: dbwarriors on November 18, 2019, 11:12:22 PM
2011-2012 teams you mentioned (final records unless i misread something):

Louisville (30-10) - went to Final Four
North Carolina (32-6) - Elite 8
Vandy (25-11) - Sweet 16
Florida (26-11) - Elite 8
Syracuse (34-3) - Elite 8

Are we saying that 2019-2020 Purdue and Wisconsin are in the same caliber of teams as those in the list you posted?  If you aren't, then this comp is not meaningful, imo.
You are proving my point.  You basically are forgiving really bad losses because went on tournament runs, essentially voiding them out as if they didn’t happen.  But they did.

Some absolute stinkers, in some cases with four future NBA players on the squad.

three sweet 16’s, one of which was an elite 8, and a blowout win against the ACC winner that year. the only stinker is your ability to fact check. and yep, those future NBA players were also recruited by the head coach.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on November 18, 2019, 11:17:04 PM
three sweet 16’s, one of which was an elite 8, and a blowout win against the ACC winner that year. the only stinker is your ability to fact check. and yep, those future NBA players were also recruited by the head coach.

What did I not fact check?  Yes, he did recruit them...and despite that huge talent advantage we still had plenty of stinkers....if Wojo had done that it would be his fault, but when Buzz loses like that with that kind of talent it’s why?  Incidentally we also got blown out last game of the year by 16 which I didn’t mention.

I didn’t get anything wrong, my point remains that we have had plenty of brutal losses by all the previous coaches...memories fade quickly around here, or they are masked by a tournament run...that doesn’t change the crapburgers we have had. 

I could go the year prior...20 point loss to Vanderbilt at home.  17 point loss to Notre Dame, 11
point to Cincinnati, 13 point loss to Louisville, etc. 

Year before that, 13 point loss to Seton Hall, 12 point loss  to St John’s at home, 25 point loss to Louisville, 18 point loss to finish the season.

Each year, Major clunkers.  It happens, memories awfully dull.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 18, 2019, 11:19:33 PM
Buzz’s fifth year

Lost to Florida by 33.  Is this the example of dog fight Humanlung?
Lost at UW Green Bay
Lost at Louisville by 19
Lost Notre Dame by 10

Etc


Some great wins, some bad losses.   Memories are fading folks....

As I recall, and I admit it's been a while, when Buzz was here there was talk of the NBA scouts believing there was a "Marquette Brand" that  produced  tough, hard working players who never quit.

It's somewhere on this board, in fact. 

Again, every team has crappy games and bad loses.  You nailed some of them, for sure.  In my opinion, Buzz's teams overall had a lot more heart and fight that the Wojo's.

Buzz's last year, he was checked out and deserves criticism for that but overall, no comparison between what most of his teams looked/played like and Wojo's.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Lennys Tap on November 18, 2019, 11:23:52 PM
You are proving my point.  You basically are forgiving really bad losses because went on tournament runs.

No you're proving mine, that big wins mitigate bad losses.

Two 14-4 seasons in the old Big East, an old Big East regular season title AND 7 tournament wins VS NONE of the above gives the former much more leeway re inevitable clunkers than it does the latter.

This is so obvious I can't believe you're arguing. I know you hate Buzz and love Wojo, but c'mon.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: 79Warrior on November 19, 2019, 12:02:28 AM
No you're proving mine, that big wins mitigate bad losses.

Two 14-4 seasons in the old Big East, an old Big East regular season title AND 7 tournament wins VS NONE of the above gives the former much more leeway re inevitable clunkers than it does the latter.

This is so obvious I can't believe you're arguing. I know you hate Buzz and love Wojo, but c'mon.

I agree with you. No comparison.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: BM1090 on November 19, 2019, 12:22:17 AM
Murray State in NCAA Tournament doesn't make the list?

Was thinking regular season. Honestly slipped my mind. Murray State would obviously make the list, yes.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: TheREALwrk on November 19, 2019, 06:30:30 AM
This thread stinks and so does humanlung :/
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: CleanishProgram on November 19, 2019, 06:51:57 AM
I’m not sure Simone Biles could handle the gymnastics required to equate the resumes of Buzz and Wojo. NCAA tournament wins weigh so much more than any other factor, it’s almost ridiculous to discuss regular season clunkers — it’s almost like discussing how Hillary won the popular vote. The correct response is, “yeah but that’s not what matters, that’s not the game we were playing.” Maybe Buzz put his team through a hell workout prior to these clunkers to ensure preparedness for the NCAA? Maybe he was trying new player combinations or defensive schemes? What matters is he took the lessons from these clunkers and created success in the NCAA.

I don’t have a short memory, I remember what it was like to win NCAA tournament games or postseason games in general. It was nice, and I miss it.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 19, 2019, 07:28:25 AM
Was thinking regular season. Honestly slipped my mind. Murray State would obviously make the list, yes.

I think yours is a normal reaction of the human brain blocking the memory of a horrible event.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 19, 2019, 07:38:50 AM
I don’t have a short memory, I remember what it was like to win NCAA tournament games or postseason games in general. It was nice, and I miss it.

You know what is interesting, those who don't remember are all on campus.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: NickelDimer on November 19, 2019, 07:58:11 AM
No you're proving mine, that big wins mitigate bad losses.

Two 14-4 seasons in the old Big East, an old Big East regular season title AND 7 tournament wins VS NONE of the above gives the former much more leeway re inevitable clunkers than it does the latter.

This is so obvious I can't believe you're arguing. I know you hate Buzz and love Wojo, but c'mon.
Spot on
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: GOO on November 19, 2019, 08:10:33 AM
This is not a defense of Wojo, so don't read it that way. I did however want to comment on Buzz's teams, as some seem to remember the "good old days" as better than I do.  As humans we do tend to remember the good and forget the bad, survival instinct I guess - plenty of psychological studies on this as it relates to business, gamblings wins vs. loses, stock investing, ect.  Overtime, we remember the good and forget or discount the bad.  Just the way we humans function and survive, I guess.

So, let me say that Buzz had gritty teams.  We made some great runs in the tournament.  Great tournaments runs, let me say that again, and for some that is all that matters.  A couple of those were teams that just made it into the tournament by a hair and didn't have great seasons, but they did win in the tourney.   

The one thing I could not stand regarding Buzz's teams and it made games painful to watch, is the lack of shooting and skills and lack of a real point guard (I do not think Junior was good, just better than the others he had). I know others love him.  He did hit one shot for a win, I think at Providence, and I remember at a game we really needed to win for our tourney hopes. But...

The inability to shoot the ball, with a couple of exceptions (DJO could be killer) was so painful to watch.  This is something that stands out for me.  I like teams that can shoot, pass, etc.  So, watching those gritty teams, was not fun for me.

Maybe I'm remembering the good old days in a negative light, but that is how I remember them.  Painful shooting teams with great athleticism but not great basketball players.  There were a few exceptions, but that is my general take.  For reference, I loved watching a guy like Diener play - killer ball handler, passer, shooter, smart as heck basketball IQ.  He may have been a bit slow on the defensive end, but for me, that was okay given his other abilities.  So that is my bias.  So Buzz's teams that lacked these qualities were really painful for me to watch.

So, Buzz = lack of basketball skills.  Wojo, until now, has = lack of athleticism.   Maybe to simple, but that's my simple take. I enjoy watching Wojo's teams more.  Would love some tourney runs, of course.

The item that is missing and why Buzz is not here and had to go, has been remedied by Wojo.  The team is now part of the university not run at the pleasure of an individual who thinks the team is separate from the university. That can be ignored when talking purely basketball, but can't be when talking about a college team that is not KY, Louisville, etc.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: brewcity77 on November 19, 2019, 08:12:36 AM
What's your username supposee to mean?

Formerly Known As

He forgot his old password or something.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: tower912 on November 19, 2019, 08:25:29 AM
This is not a defense of Wojo, so don't read it that way. I did however want to comment on Buzz's teams, as some seem to remember the "good old days" as better than I do.  As humans we do tend to remember the good and forget the bad, survival instinct I guess - plenty of psychological studies on this as it relates to business, gamblings wins vs. loses, stock investing, ect.  Overtime, we remember the good and forget or discount the bad.  Just the way we humans function and survive, I guess.

So, let me say that Buzz had gritty teams.  We made some great runs in the tournament.  Great tournaments runs, let me say that again, and for some that is all that matters.  A couple of those were teams that just made it into the tournament by a hair and didn't have great seasons, but they did win in the tourney.   

The one thing I could not stand regarding Buzz's teams and it made games painful to watch, is the lack of shooting and skills and lack of a real point guard (I do not think Junior was good, just better than the others he had). I know others love him.  He did hit one shot for a win, I think at Providence, and I remember at a game we really needed to win for our tourney hopes. But...

The inability to shoot the ball, with a couple of exceptions (DJO could be killer) was so painful to watch.  This is something that stands out for me.  I like teams that can shoot, pass, etc.  So, watching those gritty teams, was not fun for me.

Maybe I'm remembering the good old days in a negative light, but that is how I remember them.  Painful shooting teams with great athleticism but not great basketball players.  There were a few exceptions, but that is my general take.  For reference, I loved watching a guy like Diener play - killer ball handler, passer, shooter, smart as heck basketball IQ.  He may have been a bit slow on the defensive end, but for me, that was okay given his other abilities.  So that is my bias.  So Buzz's teams that lacked these qualities were really painful for me to watch.

So, Buzz = lack of basketball skills.  Wojo, until now, has = lack of athleticism.   Maybe to simple, but that's my simple take. I enjoy watching Wojo's teams more.  Would love some tourney runs, of course.

The item that is missing and why Buzz is not here and had to go, has been remedied by Wojo.  The team is now part of the university not run at the pleasure of an individual who thinks the team is separate from the university. That can be ignored when talking purely basketball, but can't be when talking about a college team that is not KY, Louisville, etc.

Same point that Cheeks is making.    And you aren't wrong.    Buzz was criticized mightily during the seasons.    Team bubble watch.    Terrible, unacceptable losses.     The difference is that he had tournament success.    The most since Al.     I am accused of being a Wojo slurper.   Meh.    I don't know if it was me or Fuzzy who made the point first, but to me Wojo is Crean without Wade.     So far.   But I am a patient soul and still believe that Wojo can grow beyond that.     

But, the difference to me between Buzz and Wojo/Crean is that Buzz was able to make teams more than the sums of their parts.    Crean didn't.    Wojo hasn't so far.    The flip side of that is that Wojo is more consistently collecting better parts than Crean did.     He just has to put them together correctly.   
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: #UnleashJayce on November 19, 2019, 08:27:00 AM
Same point that Cheeks is making.    And you aren't wrong.    Buzz was criticized mightily during the seasons.    Team bubble watch.    Terrible, unacceptable losses.     The difference is that he had tournament success.    The most since Al.     I am accused of being a Wojo slurper.   Meh.    I don't know if it was me or Fuzzy who made the point first, but to me Wojo is Crean without Wade.     So far.   But I am a patient soul and still believe that Wojo can grow beyond that.     

But, the difference to me between Buzz and Wojo/Crean is that Buzz was able to make teams more than the sums of their parts.    Crean didn't.    Wojo hasn't so far.    The flip side of that is that Wojo is more consistently collecting better parts than Crean did.     He just has to put them together correctly.

Or stop losing the parts.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: tower912 on November 19, 2019, 08:28:52 AM
Or stop recruiting parts that turn on him.   
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Lennys Tap on November 19, 2019, 08:36:02 AM
nm
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 19, 2019, 08:45:36 AM
I’m not sure Simone Biles could handle the gymnastics required to equate the resumes of Buzz and Wojo. NCAA tournament wins weigh so much more than any other factor, it’s almost ridiculous to discuss regular season clunkers — it’s almost like discussing how Hillary won the popular vote. The correct response is, “yeah but that’s not what matters, that’s not the game we were playing.” Maybe Buzz put his team through a hell workout prior to these clunkers to ensure preparedness for the NCAA? Maybe he was trying new player combinations or defensive schemes? What matters is he took the lessons from these clunkers and created success in the NCAA.

I don’t have a short memory, I remember what it was like to win NCAA tournament games or postseason games in general. It was nice, and I miss it.

Okay that was a good line.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 19, 2019, 09:02:34 AM
The flip side of that is that Wojo is more consistently collecting better parts than Crean did.     He just has to put them together correctly.

Not sure I totally agree.  I’d take some Wade, Denier, Novak, Jackson parts or some James, Mathew, McNeal, Hayward parts right now and trade anyone of our current or former Wojo players for them. (Except maybe Howard and even then I might do it).
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on November 19, 2019, 09:08:10 AM
End of the day, apparently if Wojo can get to a Sweet 16 this year, by winning those two games...he suddenly becomes an accomplished coach...that’s the deal.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Coleman on November 19, 2019, 09:10:16 AM
End of the day, apparently if Wojo can get to a Sweet 16 this year, by winning those two games...he suddenly becomes an accomplished coach...that’s the deal.

Pretty much. Buzz's first Sweet 16 season we were an 11 seed. Tons of losses that year. People don't remember the regular season, for better or worse.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: NickelDimer on November 19, 2019, 09:11:10 AM
End of the day, apparently if Wojo can get to a Sweet 16 this year, by winning those two games...he suddenly becomes an accomplished coach...that’s the deal.
You’re catching on!
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: GOO on November 19, 2019, 09:15:19 AM
Same point that Cheeks is making.    And you aren't wrong.    Buzz was criticized mightily during the seasons.    Team bubble watch.    Terrible, unacceptable losses.     The difference is that he had tournament success.    The most since Al.     I am accused of being a Wojo slurper.   Meh.    I don't know if it was me or Fuzzy who made the point first, but to me Wojo is Crean without Wade.     So far.   But I am a patient soul and still believe that Wojo can grow beyond that.     

But, the difference to me between Buzz and Wojo/Crean is that Buzz was able to make teams more than the sums of their parts.    Crean didn't.    Wojo hasn't so far.    The flip side of that is that Wojo is more consistently collecting better parts than Crean did.     He just has to put them together correctly.

I get the tourney wins and most seem to value them more than I do versus the season.  But, I do not dismiss the tourney wins.  They were fun times.  They are very important and allow me to not just dismiss Buzz as an egomaniac who established a team versus the university culture.  He could coach like no other I have seen at MU.  Just like Crean delivered a Final Four.  No matter what some of Crean's teams were like and the inability to recruit big men (which Wojo is able to do) that FF run by Crean is so special. 

Off topic, somewhat, but relevant: Crean and Wojo also get a pass for establishing academic and personal standards in line with MU values. Not perfect, but definitely something I'll give up a tourney run or a few wins for.  Bigger picture for me and i'm sure many.  Team has to be part of the university with players that graduate and better themselves.  Else, shut the team down as far as I'm concerned.  Some are win at all costs. I'm no where near that and see the team as a bigger picture and part of the university's mission.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 19, 2019, 09:30:58 AM
You’re catching on!

LOL

But seriously, make the S16 this year and that feather in the cap can add some kerosene to the recruiting fire. Narratives are important, and recruiting is a zero-sum game. When recruiting is ~85% of the job, it follows that the narrative is pretty damn important too! Not to mention tourney runs are fun as hell...
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: dinger on November 19, 2019, 09:46:37 AM
Pretty much. Buzz's first Sweet 16 season we were an 11 seed. Tons of losses that year. People don't remember the regular season, for better or worse.

Yes, at least I do. That was one of the most emotional seasons we had. Came off the soul-crushing loss the year before in the NCAAs, which followed the soul-crushing loss to mizzou with the 3 amigos. So many big games where we lost by a couple possessions. I looked this part up but we lost to #1 duke by 5, #22 Gonzaga by 3, #24 Vandy by 1, #18 Lousiville by 1, #16 ND by 5, #5 UConn by 8, #12 Nova by 5...frustration was at epic levels.
I remember the late season W against UConn at home as one of my favorite games. All along i figured we had to throw in the towel after all those close L's and they came from behind and gutted it out in OT. I was on travel in Alabama at the time
Beating Cuse to get to the sweet 16 wasn't just some little win - we got a humongous monkey off our back from a year of frustrating losses, all the frustration of not getting there with the 3 amigos...
NCAA wins don't just stand on their own, and in that case it was more about overcoming a whole bunch of frustration and finally breaking through.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: dinger on November 19, 2019, 09:51:01 AM
A totally valid criticism of Buzz was his 3-19 record on the road against ranked teams. Wojo is a similar 2-10.
In most other ways Wojo has some catching up to do, he has a 22-30 record on the road, you want to see us be a lot closer to .500 than that.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Lennys Tap on November 19, 2019, 09:53:06 AM
End of the day, apparently if Wojo can get to a Sweet 16 this year, by winning those two games...he suddenly becomes an accomplished coach...that’s the deal.

It would be a start.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Goose on November 19, 2019, 10:06:50 AM
Cheeks

A S16 this year would be a miracle coaching job by Wojo. I think making NCAA might take some real coaching from Wojo.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: 79Warrior on November 19, 2019, 10:13:37 AM
End of the day, apparently if Wojo can get to a Sweet 16 this year, by winning those two games...he suddenly becomes an accomplished coach...that’s the deal.

That would certainly put him of the pathway.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: 4everwarriors on November 19, 2019, 10:15:11 AM
Gettin' inta da Tourney will bee a reel coachin' job, aina?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 19, 2019, 10:27:49 AM
Gettin' inta da Tourney will bee a reel coachin' job, aina?

This narrative is bizarre... we have a pre-season 1st team AA, bracketologists generally have us as a 7 seed, and computers have us in the ~20-25 range. Losing to UW sucks 100% of the time and I hate it, but can we all just relax and let some games play out?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: 4everwarriors on November 19, 2019, 10:49:30 AM
Ewe watchin' da same teem? Hoo's gonna score wen Howard gets shut down, hey?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 19, 2019, 10:53:01 AM
Ewe watchin' da same teem? Hoo's gonna score wen Howard gets shut down, hey?

Damn I must have hallucinated Koby scoring 23 against Purdue & 19 against UW. My bad
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: 4everwarriors on November 19, 2019, 10:54:42 AM
Good luck wit dat, bro, hey?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: rocky_warrior on November 19, 2019, 11:11:04 AM
Good luck wit dat, bro, hey?

Wow, it must be miserable to be a fan with no optimism. Unsubscribe.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: tower912 on November 19, 2019, 11:14:06 AM
Barring injury, Marquette makes the tourney.      It was a November road loss to a P5 conference team.     Brew did a decent dive into how common that is.    It sucked, but Wojo sure as hell didn't invent it.   
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: #UnleashJayce on November 19, 2019, 11:43:47 AM
Not sure I totally agree.  I’d take some Wade, Denier, Novak, Jackson parts or some James, Mathew, McNeal, Hayward parts right now and trade anyone of our current or former Wojo players for them. (Except maybe Howard and even then I might do it).

In a straight trade I would,take Wade, diener, Novak, Matthews, ncneal, or Hayward in a heart beat over Howard.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: panda on November 19, 2019, 11:58:13 AM
In my opinion, good coaches elevate their team beyond the expected skill set. Good coaches seem to have a “magic” about them that shows when teams find ways to pull out tough games. Buzz’s teams consistently over performed their expectations, found ways to win the tough games and won when it really mattered.

Wojo’s teams seem to crumble when it matters most and have not been better than the sum of their parts.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 19, 2019, 12:23:25 PM
In my opinion, good coaches elevate their team beyond the expected skill set. Good coaches seem to have a “magic” about them that shows when teams find ways to pull out tough games. Buzz’s teams consistently over performed their expectations, found ways to win the tough games and won when it really mattered.

Wojo’s teams seem to crumble when it matters most and have not been better than the sum of their parts.

Wojo has had few big wins (#1 Villanova tops the list) but this statement is generally accurate.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: tower912 on November 19, 2019, 12:38:32 PM
I agree that Wojo has not yet shown himself to be a magician or alchemist.    Those are few and far between.   
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 19, 2019, 12:56:02 PM
I agree that Wojo has not yet shown himself to be a magician or alchemist.    Those are few and far between.

Agreed. By and large, he performs to pre-season expectations. KenPom pre and (post) below

2015: 87 (93)
2016: 53 (97)
2017: 47 (32)
2018: 49 (53)
2019: 29 (33)

So:
2016 below (but prediction of no tourney with no tourney as the result)
2017 above (but prediction of no tourney with a 10 seed as the result)
The other 3 years pretty much bang on

This year we were 18 pre-season. I think we'll end up somewhere between 10 and 30, and make the tournament safely. In the wake of the Hausers bailing, I think most would take that result in a heartbeat.

Losing Sacar, Ed, and Jayce while replacing with a hypothetical of Lewis, Oso, Garcia, and Mane with Dexter coming off redshirt would unquestionably be a talent upgrade. To be honest we'd likely be ranked top 10 to start the season (barring major transfers), and finish somewhere in that range. Which would be awesome! Don't know too many who would scoff at that. Or if they did, they'd be spoiled fools.

Coaching exactly to the talent level is frustrating when the talent isn't there... the solution for that is bringing in more talent... and we're on the cusp of doing so! Fingers crossed on Garcia tomorrow.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: panda on November 19, 2019, 02:16:31 PM
Agreed. By and large, he performs to pre-season expectations. KenPom pre and (post) below

2015: 87 (93)
2016: 53 (97)
2017: 47 (32)
2018: 49 (53)
2019: 29 (33)

So:
2016 below (but prediction of no tourney with no tourney as the result)
2017 above (but prediction of no tourney with a 10 seed as the result)
The other 3 years pretty much bang on

This year we were 18 pre-season. I think we'll end up somewhere between 10 and 30, and make the tournament safely. In the wake of the Hausers bailing, I think most would take that result in a heartbeat.

Losing Sacar, Ed, and Jayce while replacing with a hypothetical of Lewis, Oso, Garcia, and Mane with Dexter coming off redshirt would unquestionably be a talent upgrade. To be honest we'd likely be ranked top 10 to start the season (barring major transfers), and finish somewhere in that range. Which would be awesome! Don't know too many who would scoff at that. Or if they did, they'd be spoiled fools.

Coaching exactly to the talent level is frustrating when the talent isn't there... the solution for that is bringing in more talent... and we're on the cusp of doing so! Fingers crossed on Garcia tomorrow.

Your look into the future is insanely optimistic and I hope it comes to fruition!
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 19, 2019, 02:29:10 PM
Your look into the future is insanely optimistic and I hope it comes to fruition!

Ha there are certainly a couple big "ifs" embedded in there... but IF they happen I'll have a sh!t eating grin on my face til opening tipoff next year!
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Dr. Blackheart on November 19, 2019, 02:36:49 PM
In the crapshoot era, let's be on the shoot side of the tourney
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: panda on November 19, 2019, 02:41:29 PM
In the crapshoot era, let's be on the shoot side of the tourney

Good coaches with good teams consistently win in the crapshoot. Call it random, but those guys with the "magic" I speak of show up in March.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: BobWildLoyalist on November 19, 2019, 03:40:33 PM
Wojo is an absolute loser, anyone who says otherwise is a woman's genital. College basketball is big business and Wojo has failed. He has all the tools and resources needed to win, and he hasn't. Plain and simple the guy is a loser and cant manage the team. Fire him.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Lennys Tap on November 19, 2019, 03:52:56 PM
Agreed. By and large, he performs to pre-season expectations. KenPom pre and (post) below

2015: 87 (93)
2016: 53 (97)
2017: 47 (32)
2018: 49 (53)
2019: 29 (33)

So:
2016 below (but prediction of no tourney with no tourney as the result)
2017 above (but prediction of no tourney with a 10 seed as the result)
The other 3 years pretty much bang on



Losing Sacar, Ed, and Jayce while replacing with a hypothetical of Lewis, Oso, Garcia, and Mane with Dexter coming off redshirt would unquestionably be a talent upgrade. To be honest we'd likely be ranked top 10 to start the season (barring major transfers), and finish somewhere in that range. Which would be awesome! Don't know too many who would scoff at that. Or if they did, they'd be spoiled fools.



Your hypothetical would be correct as stated but you forgot to include the loss of Markus. If we get both Garcia and Mane we'll be talented but inexperienced/young. Think Duke or Kentucky Lite. Probably top 20, not top 10. Take Mane out of the picture and we're team bubble or worse IMO.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: tower912 on November 19, 2019, 04:00:40 PM
Wojo is an absolute loser, anyone who says otherwise is a woman's genital. College basketball is big business and Wojo has failed. He has all the tools and resources needed to win, and he hasn't. Plain and simple the guy is a loser and cant manage the team. Fire him.
Are you prepared to lose Lewis, Osa, and (theoretically) Garcia and go through the dumpster fire of another rebuild?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 19, 2019, 04:01:15 PM
Your hypothetical would be correct as stated but you forgot to include the loss of Markus. If we get both Garcia and Mane we'll be talented but inexperienced/young. Think Duke or Kentucky Lite. Probably top 20, not top 10. Take Mane out of the picture and we're team bubble or worse IMO.

LOL good point pretty big oversight! I was thinking it but didn't type it.

I still think Mane would give you ~85% of Markus, especially given the size differential + NBA projection, and the other combination of guys are instant talent upgrades over the rest to make it a gain. Combine with an extra year of seasoning for the returnees and I see pre-season ~10. Hypothetically speaking, of course
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Silent Verbal on November 19, 2019, 04:05:48 PM
Are you prepared to lose Lewis, Osa, and (theoretically) Garcia and go through the dumpster fire of another rebuild?

Fear of losing recruits is a bad reason to keep a coach.  You can play that game every single year.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: tower912 on November 19, 2019, 04:14:42 PM
Until they stop getting good recruits, a la Dukiet or Deane.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Silent Verbal on November 19, 2019, 04:16:30 PM
Until they stop getting good recruits, a la Dukiet or Deane.

Aside from Howard and maybe McEwen, our roster is filled with Deane-level players.  But I agree that landing Garcia would buy Wojo another year.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Small Orange Soda on November 19, 2019, 04:19:21 PM
Are you prepared to lose Lewis, Osa, and (theoretically) Garcia and go through the dumpster fire of another rebuild?

Some people have decided that rebuilds are incredibly hard because our coach hasn't been good at his.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: panda on November 19, 2019, 04:21:39 PM
Fear of losing recruits is a bad reason to keep a coach.  You can play that game every single year.

That’s an interesting point. I’d liken this to an NFL coach who continues to accumulate top draft picks but doesn’t achieve expected results. “You can’t possibly fire him because top player xyz hasn’t reached full potential.”

It’s a shortsighted solution to a long term, ongoing problem.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: WhiteTrash on November 19, 2019, 04:22:50 PM
Are you prepared to lose Lewis, Osa, and (theoretically) Garcia and go through the dumpster fire of another rebuild?
First, I don't want Wojo fired. Second, this is a crap argument for any coach to keep his job. MU would be a sad excuse for a school if was held hostage by any recruits. MU is too smart to fall victim to keeping a coach because of some recruits. Give MU a little credit. 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: willie warrior on November 19, 2019, 04:26:09 PM
I agree that Wojo has not yet shown himself to be a magician or alchemist.    Those are few and far between.
What wojo is, is an average coach. MU deserves better.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: BCHoopster on November 19, 2019, 04:26:34 PM
That’s an interesting point. I’d liken this to an NFL coach who continues to accumulate top draft picks but doesn’t achieve expected results. “You can’t possibly fire him because top player xyz hasn’t reached full potential.”

It’s a shortsighted solution to a long term, ongoing problem.

Maybe Wojo is not the right man, then all you haters, whom do you want?  I do not think you realize how hard it is to recruit to MU.  Look at the
roster at Wisky and MU, like 1 kid from the state right now.  Does that tell you something?  Kids are not dreaming to come to either school.  Heck,
even the Badger football team at this point does not have a 4 or 5 running back, that makes less sense.  Getting potentially 3 out of state top 75 kids to me is a real breakthrough if it happens.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: willie warrior on November 19, 2019, 04:29:07 PM
Are you prepared to lose Lewis, Osa, and (theoretically) Garcia and go through the dumpster fire of another rebuild?
Same old same old manta excuse on wojo all the time. Keep accepting mediocrity.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on November 19, 2019, 04:39:36 PM
Aside from Howard and maybe McEwen, our roster is filled with Deane-level players.

1. Not really

2. It doesn’t matter because Markus and Koby actually count.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Uncle Rico on November 19, 2019, 05:06:42 PM
I ask this every time the talk of firing Wojo comes up.  Who is the guy you want?  Who is the guy you think they can get?  If your wish is for him to be fired, you have to have a solution other than it’s up to the administration.  I want names. 

I get the angst and anger, I do.  Roster management has been terrible.  In today’s landscape, you have to be prepared for transfers and surprise early entries.  That lands at his feet.

I agree with the cheeks on the crapshoot in March but at some point, the other  POV is correct, too, you need to win games.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Silent Verbal on November 19, 2019, 05:08:16 PM
1. Not really

2. It doesn’t matter because Markus and Koby actually count.

The guys who aren’t Howard and McEwen are Deane-level players.  You’re wrong if you think otherwise.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Uncle Rico on November 19, 2019, 05:10:00 PM
The guys who aren’t Howard and McEwen are Deane-level players.  You’re wrong if you think otherwise.

Jury is out on Symir and BB.  I believe Greg and Jamal will be very good players
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 19, 2019, 05:31:27 PM
1. Not really

2. It doesn’t matter because Markus and Koby actually count.

This roster has far more talent than Deane-level players. 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Pakuni on November 19, 2019, 05:37:58 PM
The guys who aren’t Howard and McEwen are Deane-level players.  You’re wrong if you think otherwise.

The Deane guys who weren't Wardle and Henry were Horizon League level players. Which is not something that could be said for anyone on current roster.
So, you're wrong.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on November 19, 2019, 06:32:55 PM
The guys who aren’t Howard and McEwen are Deane-level players.  You’re wrong if you think otherwise.

Sorry but no. 


This roster has far more talent than Deane-level players. 

Yes.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on November 19, 2019, 07:18:35 PM
In my opinion, good coaches elevate their team beyond the expected skill set. Good coaches seem to have a “magic” about them that shows when teams find ways to pull out tough games. Buzz’s teams consistently over performed their expectations, found ways to win the tough games and won when it really mattered.

Wojo’s teams seem to crumble when it matters most and have not been better than the sum of their parts.

Buzz’s last team was picked first for the Big East and finished 6th with no NIT even.

Several other Buzz teams were picked to do one thing, but did worse...but a run in the NCAA tournament erases all apparently.

Wojo, last year predicted to finish second and we finished second.  I’ll have to go through the others.

Our memories are dulling.

Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on November 19, 2019, 07:21:39 PM
Aside from Howard and maybe McEwen, our roster is filled with Deane-level players.  But I agree that landing Garcia would buy Wojo another year.

This is factually incorrect unless you are talking about Deane inherited players.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on November 19, 2019, 07:24:27 PM
I
That’s an interesting point. I’d liken this to an NFL coach who continues to accumulate top draft picks but doesn’t achieve expected results. “You can’t possibly fire him because top player xyz hasn’t reached full potential.”

It’s a shortsighted solution to a long term, ongoing problem.

I wouldn’t liken it to that at all because there is no draft in college basketball.  A team in pro sports that continues to lose despite great draft picks he’s a big problem, especially in the nba and nfl where draft picks matter much more than MLB. 

In college, there is no guarantee at all with a new coach.  We can go through a bunch of SEC level football coaches if you all wish that had too notch programs only a decade or two ago and now cannot get it right despite insane budgets, etc.


Think folks..think.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: panda on November 19, 2019, 07:39:57 PM
I
I wouldn’t liken it to that at all because there is no draft in college basketball.  A team in pro sports that continues to lose despite great draft picks he’s a big problem, especially in the nba and nfl where draft picks matter much more than MLB. 

In college, there is no guarantee at all with a new coach.  We can go through a bunch of SEC level football coaches if you all wish that had too notch programs only a decade or two ago and now cannot get it right despite insane budgets, etc.


Think folks..think.

Be a critical thinker just one time. Pick a different analogy for me if you’re too simple to figure out mine.

A coach who continuously brings in high talent players but underperforms will always have supporters who say he should continue with his job because of those players’ unrecognized potential. All the while, the results are barely adequate.

This is my only response to you, thread ruiner.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Herman Cain on November 19, 2019, 08:11:52 PM
I think the title to this thread is excellent.

I continue to believe the best way for MU to get rid of Wojo is for him to have a solid season this year. 21-22 wins should be good enough to get him an offer from a Power 5 football school looking to improve their basketball program.

 Wojo enjoyed the brief dalliance with Va Tech and is definitely receptive to the right school. Maryland would be his dream job, but that is probably not open for a while.  Here are some research reports on those on the hot seat

 https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketball-hot-seat-seven-coaches-whose-jobs-could-be-on-the-line-in-2019-20/

https://bustingbrackets.com/2019/09/10/ncaa-basketball-5-coaches-hot-seat-2019-20-season/

https://watchstadium.com/news/college-basketball-coaches-on-the-hot-seat-heading-into-the-season-10-24-2019/

https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2019/10/09/the-hot-seat-which-college-basketball-coaches-are-in-danger-of-losing-their-job/


There will be a long list of quality coaches who would be interested in the MU coaching job.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Warrior Code on November 19, 2019, 08:29:47 PM
I think the title to this thread is excellent.

I continue to believe the best way for MU to get rid of Wojo is for him to have a solid season this year. 21-22 wins should be good enough to get him an offer from a Power 5 football school looking to improve their basketball program.

 Wojo enjoyed the brief dalliance with Va Tech and is definitely receptive to the right school. Maryland would be his dream job, but that is probably not open for a while.  Here are some research reports on those on the hot seat

 https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketball-hot-seat-seven-coaches-whose-jobs-could-be-on-the-line-in-2019-20/

https://bustingbrackets.com/2019/09/10/ncaa-basketball-5-coaches-hot-seat-2019-20-season/

https://watchstadium.com/news/college-basketball-coaches-on-the-hot-seat-heading-into-the-season-10-24-2019/

https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2019/10/09/the-hot-seat-which-college-basketball-coaches-are-in-danger-of-losing-their-job/


There will be a long list of quality coaches who would be interested in the MU coaching job.

Ok, I'll bite. Like who?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Herman Cain on November 19, 2019, 08:43:39 PM
Ok, I'll bite. Like who?
Here is a research report on selected successful mid major coaches. These guys would all be eager for the MU job.
https://clutchpoints.com/7-mid-major-college-basketball-coaches-rise-2019-20-season/
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Spaniel with a Short Tail on November 19, 2019, 08:46:12 PM
This is not a defense of Wojo, so don't read it that way. I did however want to comment on Buzz's teams, as some seem to remember the "good old days" as better than I do.  As humans we do tend to remember the good and forget the bad, survival instinct I guess - plenty of psychological studies on this as it relates to business, gamblings wins vs. loses, stock investing, ect.  Overtime, we remember the good and forget or discount the bad.  Just the way we humans function and survive, I guess.

So, let me say that Buzz had gritty teams.  We made some great runs in the tournament.  Great tournaments runs, let me say that again, and for some that is all that matters.  A couple of those were teams that just made it into the tournament by a hair and didn't have great seasons, but they did win in the tourney.   

The one thing I could not stand regarding Buzz's teams and it made games painful to watch, is the lack of shooting and skills and lack of a real point guard (I do not think Junior was good, just better than the others he had). I know others love him.  He did hit one shot for a win, I think at Providence, and I remember at a game we really needed to win for our tourney hopes. But...

The inability to shoot the ball, with a couple of exceptions (DJO could be killer) was so painful to watch.  This is something that stands out for me.  I like teams that can shoot, pass, etc.  So, watching those gritty teams, was not fun for me.

Maybe I'm remembering the good old days in a negative light, but that is how I remember them.  Painful shooting teams with great athleticism but not great basketball players.  There were a few exceptions, but that is my general take.  For reference, I loved watching a guy like Diener play - killer ball handler, passer, shooter, smart as heck basketball IQ.  He may have been a bit slow on the defensive end, but for me, that was okay given his other abilities.  So that is my bias.  So Buzz's teams that lacked these qualities were really painful for me to watch.

So, Buzz = lack of basketball skills.  Wojo, until now, has = lack of athleticism.   Maybe to simple, but that's my simple take. I enjoy watching Wojo's teams more.  Would love some tourney runs, of course.

The item that is missing and why Buzz is not here and had to go, has been remedied by Wojo.  The team is now part of the university not run at the pleasure of an individual who thinks the team is separate from the university. That can be ignored when talking purely basketball, but can't be when talking about a college team that is not KY, Louisville, etc.

(https://miro.medium.com/max/490/1*j4NZC4xuV6r-MRPo6ucuiA.jpeg)

This seems more appropriate for the offseason.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Lennys Tap on November 19, 2019, 08:54:11 PM
.

Several other Buzz teams were picked to do one thing, but did worse...but a run in the NCAA tournament erases all apparently.



This is a lie. Years 1 and 3 we met regular season expectations and were on pace to exceed them in year 1 when James got hurt. Year 2 even you admitted we vastly exceeded expectations by earning a 6 seed. Years 4 and 5 we were 14-4, conference champs and conference runner ups, both exceeding expectations. In the tournament we met expectations in year 1, lost a pick'em by one point in year 2, then went S16, S16, E8.

Which are the "several" seasons where we underperformed expectations. #Lies
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: brewcity77 on November 19, 2019, 09:18:34 PM
Maybe Wojo is not the right man, then all you haters, whom do you want?  I do not think you realize how hard it is to recruit to MU.

I'm not anti-Wojo at all, but here's a few names I'd be interested in:

1) John Becker, Vermont. He's a damn good coach, and has been at Vermont for close to a decade, so there's a loyalty factor.

2) Craig Smith, Utah State. Minnesota native that has unearthed guys like Matt Mooney and Neemias Queta.

3) Wes Miller, UNC-Greensboro. Can win at different tempos, has built a solid program. Only worry is he might be the pick to succeed Roy at Chapel Hill.

Not saying I want a new coach, but there are coaches out there.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Herman Cain on November 19, 2019, 09:36:04 PM
I'm not anti-Wojo at all, but here's a few names I'd be interested in:

1) John Becker, Vermont. He's a damn good coach, and has been at Vermont for close to a decade, so there's a loyalty factor.

2) Craig Smith, Utah State. Minnesota native that has unearthed guys like Matt Mooney and Neemias Queta.

3) Wes Miller, UNC-Greensboro. Can win at different tempos, has built a solid program. Only worry is he might be the pick to succeed Roy at Chapel Hill.

Not saying I want a new coach, but there are coaches out there.
TJ Otzelberger
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: BCHoopster on November 19, 2019, 09:53:29 PM
TJ Otzelberger

You must be kidding on all those names.  Wojo is a known name to the fathers of the kids MU are recruiting, much better resume, plus to me he
has at least one assistant coach that really knows how to get involved with recruits, as he has brought in kids from the West Coast, hard to
believe.  Just think how good Stan would have been at Arizona St.  If he gets Garcia, he might be turning the corner.  Telling Mane that he has 3
top recruits coming in and a starting position for him next year, I say why not.  A line-up of Mane, McEwen, Garcia, Lewis and Theo plus a nice bench would be pretty good.  Now that is a big starting 5,  add another 6'10" kid in Osa and Smyr, looks pretty good next year and the future.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on November 19, 2019, 09:54:38 PM
Be a critical thinker just one time. Pick a different analogy for me if you’re too simple to figure out mine.

A coach who continuously brings in high talent players but underperforms will always have supporters who say he should continue with his job because of those players’ unrecognized potential. All the while, the results are barely adequate.

This is my only response to you, thread ruiner.

I believe I do often think critically.  We just disagree.  I don’t judge a coach solely on one or two games in March that is a total crapshoot.  I value the regular season, too, and keeping the school out of the front pages for wrong reasons, etc. 

Dean Smith continuously brought in top players only to not win the title for a long time.  Lou Carnesecca.  Jim Boeheim.  Etc.  I’m in it for the long haul.  Appreciate your response even if it was the only one you will make.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: VegasWarrior77 on November 19, 2019, 09:58:01 PM
TJO is not impressing UNLV fans so far.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: brewcity77 on November 19, 2019, 10:03:15 PM
You must be kidding on all those names.  Wojo is a known name to the fathers of the kids MU are recruiting, much better resume, plus to me he
has at least one assistant coach that really knows how to get involved with recruits, as he has brought in kids from the West Coast, hard to
believe.  Just think how good Stan would have been at Arizona St.  If he gets Garcia, he might be turning the corner.  Telling Mane that he has 3
top recruits coming in and a starting position for him next year, I say why not.  A line-up of Mane, McEwen, Garcia, Lewis and Theo plus a nice bench would be pretty good.  Now that is a big starting 5,  add another 6'10" kid in Osa and Smyr, looks pretty good next year and the future.

Would you trade Wojo for Chris Beard?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Pakuni on November 19, 2019, 10:09:21 PM
These posts were way more interesting when you all made them in April.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: BCHoopster on November 19, 2019, 10:10:34 PM
Would you trade Wojo for Chris Beard?

Yes, but he was not on the list given above.  I do not want to go thru another rebuilding cycle.  Wojo came, all of Buzz's recruits left.  If he gets
Garcia, 3 top 75 kids, that is pretty darn good, to me excellent.  Just hope they are better than Erik Williams and hate to say, Brendan Bailey, who
were both in the Top 100 in there class.  Well, if anything, we will have a tall front line.  I have to believe they will be better than what MU has
now.  On that last statement, I hope I eat my words, as there are at least 30 more games to watch.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on November 19, 2019, 10:21:59 PM
This is a lie. Years 1 and 3 we met regular season expectations and were on pace to exceed them in year 1 when James got hurt. Year 2 even you admitted we vastly exceeded expectations by earning a 6 seed. Years 4 and 5 we were 14-4, conference champs and conference runner ups, both exceeding expectations. In the tournament we met expectations in year 1, lost a pick'em by one point in year 2, then went S16, S16, E8.

Which are the "several" seasons where we underperformed expectations. #Lies

#No lies


Year 3, we were picked 6th and finished in a 3 way tie for 9th (positions 9 thru 11).  Not sure how that is meeting expectations.   https://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/2010/10/pitt_picked_to_win_big_east_an.html

Year 6, we were picked 1st and finished 6th.  Definitely not meeting expectations.
https://www.vuhoops.com/2013/10/16/4844240/2013-big-east-basketball-media-day-polls-preseason-teams-quotes


Please note I didn't say each year, there were years we finished ahead of predictions and years we did not.  #NoLies


https://youtu.be/Xr9Oubxw1gA


Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Mutaman on November 19, 2019, 10:35:05 PM


The item that is missing and why Buzz is not here and had to go, has been remedied by Wojo.  The team is now part of the university not run at the pleasure of an individual who thinks the team is separate from the university. That can be ignored when talking purely basketball, but can't be when talking about a college team that is not KY, Louisville, etc.

Zero post season wins but "The team is now part of the university". Somehow it just doesn't seem like a fair trade off.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on November 19, 2019, 10:39:33 PM
Zero post season wins but "The team is now part of the university". Somehow it just doesn't seem like a fair trade off.

#lies

Several post season wins.  Big East Tournament, NIT
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Lennys Tap on November 19, 2019, 10:44:52 PM
#No lies


Year 3, we were picked 6th and finished in a 3 way tie for 9th (positions 9 thru 11).  Not sure how that is meeting expectations.   https://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/2010/10/pitt_picked_to_win_big_east_an.html

Year 6, we were picked 1st and finished 6th.  Definitely not meeting expectations.
https://www.vuhoops.com/2013/10/16/4844240/2013-big-east-basketball-media-day-polls-preseason-teams-quotes


Please note I didn't say each year, there were years we finished ahead of predictions and years we did not.  #NoLies


https://youtu.be/Xr9Oubxw1gA

You said that in SEVERAL years OTHER than year 6 we finished below expectations under Buzz. Other than year 6 means not including year 6.

So, once in those five years. One is not several. Neither would be 2. Doubling down on lies.

Oh, and in that year we slightly underachieved (9-9 vs a predicted 10-8) we went to the S16, beating a #6 and #3 team in the tournament #Mitigating
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Silent Verbal on November 19, 2019, 11:02:17 PM
You must be kidding on all those names.  Wojo is a known name to the fathers of the kids MU are recruiting, much better resume, plus to me he
has at least one assistant coach that really knows how to get involved with recruits, as he has brought in kids from the West Coast, hard to
believe.  Just think how good Stan would have been at Arizona St.  If he gets Garcia, he might be turning the corner.  Telling Mane that he has 3
top recruits coming in and a starting position for him next year, I say why not.  A line-up of Mane, McEwen, Garcia, Lewis and Theo plus a nice bench would be pretty good.  Now that is a big starting 5,  add another 6'10" kid in Osa and Smyr, looks pretty good next year and the future.

See, this is where I call BS on your “who would you replace him with” question.  You asked and people gave some pretty reasonable answers.  You then immediately pooh-poohed them and called the suggestions ridiculous.  I don’t even know why you asked the question.  You already had your mind made up.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Herman Cain on November 19, 2019, 11:10:05 PM
TJO is not impressing UNLV fans so far.
Just signed  6 kids.  So someone is buying what he is selling.

https://lasvegassun.com/news/2019/nov/18/analysis-unlv-basketball-announces-2020-signees/
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on November 19, 2019, 11:13:07 PM
You said that in SEVERAL years OTHER than year 6 we finished below expectations under Buzz. Other than year 6 means not including year 6.

So, once in those five years. One is not several. Neither would be 2. Doubling down on lies.

Oh, and in that year we slightly underachieved (9-9 vs a predicted 10-8) we went to the S16, beating a #6 and #3 team in the tournament #Mitigating
33% of the time we didn't meet those expectations...does that help?  Your claims that we met expectations in year 3 are not true.   The tournament...crapshoot.  But if you want to go there, we were "supposed" to win against Washington in the NCAA tournament...but didn't....since you don't believe in the crapshoot nature of the NCAA tournament, I guess he was just a failure that year like Wojo was in two years.  Only thing I can think of.  Fortunately for us, Davidson gagged, or it would have happened again.  That's the nature of sports.

Look, the point remains and will still remain, there are years Buzz overachieved and years he underachieved, despite the faulty memory of people here...including badly underachieving his last year.  I don't know why the human condition does that to people we are in love with, but sometimes it suppresses memories. 

Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: 79Warrior on November 20, 2019, 12:06:00 AM
33% of the time we didn't meet those expectations...does that help?  Your claims that we met expectations in year 3 are not true.   The tournament...crapshoot.  But if you want to go there, we were "supposed" to win against Washington in the NCAA tournament...but didn't....since you don't believe in the crapshoot nature of the NCAA tournament, I guess he was just a failure that year like Wojo was in two years.  Only thing I can think of.  Fortunately for us, Davidson gagged, or it would have happened again.  That's the nature of sports.

Look, the point remains and will still remain, there are years Buzz overachieved and years he underachieved, despite the faulty memory of people here...including badly underachieving his last year.  I don't know why the human condition does that to people we are in love with, but sometimes it suppresses memories.
.

Crapshoot. Life is a crapshoot. Move on from the same drivel over and over.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Mutaman on November 20, 2019, 12:07:30 AM
#lies

Several post season wins.  Big East Tournament, NIT

Christ, what an a--h---.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: The Lens on November 20, 2019, 12:43:01 AM
If TJO is an option, then life changes.  He’s a proven winner and a Midwest recruiting guru.

Getting TJO = S16 on repeat
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: brewcity77 on November 20, 2019, 05:29:28 AM
Yes, but he was not on the list given above.

That's the point. Because 3 years ago, no one would've been happy with Beard replacing Wojo on the basis of one season at UALR.

I do not want to go thru another rebuilding cycle.  Wojo came, all of Buzz's recruits left.

Rebuilds aren't fun, but if you have the wrong guy, it's better to start the rebuild than to give the wrong guy time with another class. Maybe you lose recruits, but if he ultimate success of those recruits is 2 NIT bids & 2 NCAA bids with only one win in Dayton, have you really lost anything?

The only thing you'll have lost is the time for the next guy to get things going.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: willie warrior on November 20, 2019, 05:46:02 AM
#No lies


Year 3, we were picked 6th and finished in a 3 way tie for 9th (positions 9 thru 11).  Not sure how that is meeting expectations.   https://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/2010/10/pitt_picked_to_win_big_east_an.html

Year 6, we were picked 1st and finished 6th.  Definitely not meeting expectations.
https://www.vuhoops.com/2013/10/16/4844240/2013-big-east-basketball-media-day-polls-preseason-teams-quotes


Please note I didn't say each year, there were years we finished ahead of predictions and years we did not.  #NoLies


https://youtu.be/Xr9Oubxw1gA
Ah yes  Fleetwood back in their prime. And Stevie Nicks could have been anybody's Gypsy back in the day.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: nyg on November 20, 2019, 06:18:12 AM
Just signed  6 kids.  So someone is buying what he is selling.

https://lasvegassun.com/news/2019/nov/18/analysis-unlv-basketball-announces-2020-signees/

He's selling mid major recruits.  It's bad enough that this discussion is continuing three games into the season and Wojo is on the verge on signing a Top 30 recruit.  Comparing UNLV to MU is ridiculous.

Per 24/7 site:

MU Recruits ranks:                           UNLV Recruits ranks:

#47 (Symir, yes, I included).             #92
#22 (Garcia)                                    #215
#59 (Oso)                                        #273
#92 (Lewis)                                      # N/R
                                                        #N/R
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: tower912 on November 20, 2019, 06:22:36 AM
To be fair, early in the season under Buzz, when MU would lose a road game against a power team, and Buzz would say that he hadn't even installed the offense yet, that all the focus had been on defense, posters would rant about the defense sucking anyway, the offense being a joke, and ponder why he was mis-using his freshmen and lament the lack of 4 year players...       So, the melody is the same, just different lyrics. 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Lennys Tap on November 20, 2019, 06:40:34 AM
33% of the time we didn't meet those expectations...does that help?  Your claims that we met expectations in year 3 are not true.   The tournament...crapshoot.  But if you want to go there, we were "supposed" to win against Washington in the NCAA tournament...but didn't....since you don't believe in the crapshoot nature of the NCAA tournament, I guess he was just a failure that year like Wojo was in two years.  Only thing I can think of.  Fortunately for us, Davidson gagged, or it would have happened again.  That's the nature of sports.

Look, the point remains and will still remain, there are years Buzz overachieved and years he underachieved, despite the faulty memory of people here...including badly underachieving his last year.  I don't know why the human condition does that to people we are in love with, but sometimes it suppresses memories.

You lied and continue lying. keep moving the goalposts, though. It's what you do whenever you're aught in a lie.

Out.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Small Orange Soda on November 20, 2019, 07:09:15 AM
I think the crapshoot talk has some merit for a guy like Tony Bennett, who continually underachieved in the tournament relative to his regular season success.  Wojo, on the other hand, has made the tournament twice in five years, and only once was he the favored seed.  And I wouldn't chalk up a blowout loss when your team is undergoing a locker room mutiny to "bad luck". 

Cheeks is right that the regular season matters.  Unfortunately, one single digit seed in the tourney means Wojo has very little to show there either.

You must be kidding on all those names.  Wojo is a known name to the fathers of the kids MU are recruiting, much better resume, plus to me he
has at least one assistant coach that really knows how to get involved with recruits, as he has brought in kids from the West Coast, hard to
believe.  Just think how good Stan would have been at Arizona St.  If he gets Garcia, he might be turning the corner.  Telling Mane that he has 3
top recruits coming in and a starting position for him next year, I say why not.  A line-up of Mane, McEwen, Garcia, Lewis and Theo plus a nice bench would be pretty good.  Now that is a big starting 5,  add another 6'10" kid in Osa and Smyr, looks pretty good next year and the future.

We've been hearing about how good a recruiter Wojo is since he got here and yet the results on the actual court have continued to lack. Garcia looks like a great catch and of course Wojo deserves credit for landing him.  But we also have a preseason first team All American on THIS team and yet Wojo "might be turning the corner" in year seven.  I'll say we turned a corner when we see it in our record, not just recruiting rankings.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on November 20, 2019, 07:27:10 AM
You must be kidding on all those names.  Wojo is a known name to the fathers of the kids MU are recruiting, much better resume, plus to me he
has at least one assistant coach that really knows how to get involved with recruits, as he has brought in kids from the West Coast, hard to
believe.  Just think how good Stan would have been at Arizona St.  If he gets Garcia, he might be turning the corner.  Telling Mane that he has 3
top recruits coming in and a starting position for him next year, I say why not.  A line-up of Mane, McEwen, Garcia, Lewis and Theo plus a nice bench would be pretty good.  Now that is a big starting 5,  add another 6'10" kid in Osa and Smyr, looks pretty good next year and the future.

The assumption is that Wojo leaves on his own. Not that he is fired.

And I have no idea how good Stan would be. He hasn’t exactly been a hot commodity in the coaching search circles. 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: BCHoopster on November 20, 2019, 08:32:58 AM
I never said Stan would be the next coach, he is just doing a good job helping Wojo get recruits.  He may or may not be the next in line, time
will tell on that.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Eldon on November 20, 2019, 09:07:41 AM
The assumption is that Wojo leaves on his own. Not that he is fired.

And I have no idea how good Stan would be. He hasn’t exactly been a hot commodity in the coaching search circles.

Was Wojo for a decade and a half?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: GOO on November 20, 2019, 09:07:58 AM
I understand that Stan is paid really well.  Hopefully too well to make the decision to move his family for a lower D-1 head coach job that pays less.  Plus, he has to be able to afford those suits.

It seems he must be satisfied, as otherwise, his name would surface in lower D-1 job openings/interviews.  Good sign that he doesn't feel the need to run from something.  With Crean, it seemed like his assistants were looking to run from him for whatever "better" job they could get. 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Herman Cain on November 20, 2019, 09:14:52 AM
He's selling mid major recruits.  It's bad enough that this discussion is continuing three games into the season and Wojo is on the verge on signing a Top 30 recruit.  Comparing UNLV to MU is ridiculous.

Per 24/7 site:

MU Recruits ranks:                           UNLV Recruits ranks:

#47 (Symir, yes, I included).             #92
#22 (Garcia)                                    #215
#59 (Oso)                                        #273
#92 (Lewis)                                      # N/R
                                                        #N/R
He is selling a mid major school. Which is actually a hard thing to do with any success . With MU resources I am confident he would be able to recruit very well.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Galway Eagle on November 20, 2019, 09:20:08 AM
He is selling a mid major school. Which is actually a hard thing to do with any success . With MU resources I am confident he would be able to recruit very well.

Plenty of coaches have sold UNLV with success. They're capable of getting better recruits than that.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 20, 2019, 09:28:05 AM
He is selling a mid major school. Which is actually a hard thing to do with any success . With MU resources I am confident he would be able to recruit very well.

Bruh. Wojo is recruiting better than any of the recent school comps you are whining about / pining after, and is aiming higher than any the individual recruits you are recently obsessing over. Very odd thing to be worried about with respect to Wojo. IMHO, of course.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on November 20, 2019, 09:46:37 AM
Was Wojo for a decade and a half?

Yes. More than Stan.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Pakuni on November 20, 2019, 10:12:15 AM
He is selling a mid major school. Which is actually a hard thing to do with any success . With MU resources I am confident he would be able to recruit very well.

Excuses, excuses.
I can guarantee the UNLV faithful doesn't see themselves as mid-major, and will not accept that as an excuse for landing mostly kids ranked in the 200s (or unranked entirely).
Certainly Lon Kruger aimed higher at UNLV and landed multiple top 100, four-star players. Heck, Dave Rice landed a couple of top 10 classes and two more ranked in the top 25 at UNLV (one featuring our very own Katin Reinhardt).

Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Marcus92 on November 20, 2019, 10:17:12 AM
It seems he must be satisfied, as otherwise, his name would surface in lower D-1 job openings/interviews. Good sign that he doesn't feel the need to run from something. With Crean, it seemed like his assistants were looking to run from him for whatever "better" job they could get.

You never want to see good assistants leave. But it's actually a sign of a strong program if Marquette coaches are in demand elsewhere -- not a sign that they "need to run from something."
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 20, 2019, 10:34:13 AM
You never want to see good assistants leave. But it's actually a sign of a strong program if Marquette coaches are in demand elsewhere -- not a sign that they "need to run from something."

Agree, ideally I'd like to see one of them get a HC position every 2-3 years

Keeps fresh guys coming in for opening new recruiting pipelines, and the position would be viewed favorably by young talent considering their next move as an avenue to a HC position
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: GOO on November 20, 2019, 11:35:13 AM
You never want to see good assistants leave. But it's actually a sign of a strong program if Marquette coaches are in demand elsewhere -- not a sign that they "need to run from something."
I do get that.  C

rean seemed to have revolving doors at multiple assistant positions looking for "other opportunities" that were not clearly better positions.  Maybe I'm way off; and I'm sure all coaches are hard to work for, but we've all heard a few stories. 

I do think the assistant turnover under Crean kept him from taking MU up a level consistently and forced him to overextend himself on the recruiting side as he had to be involved as his assistants couldn't be counted on long term. 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: tower912 on November 20, 2019, 12:33:16 PM
You never want to see good assistants leave. But it's actually a sign of a strong program if Marquette coaches are in demand elsewhere -- not a sign that they "need to run from something."

Everybody understood when Nelson left. 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 20, 2019, 01:28:41 PM
Buzz’s last team was picked first for the Big East and finished 6th with no NIT even.

Several other Buzz teams were picked to do one thing, but did worse...but a run in the NCAA tournament erases all apparently.

Wojo, last year predicted to finish second and we finished second.  I’ll have to go through the others.

Our memories are dulling.

Cheeks, I think I can boil this down pretty quickly.  If given a choice of:

1) an undefeated regular season and Big East Tournament Championship and a first round NCAA Tournament exit

OR

2) a 20 win season, decent run in the BE Tournament and a Sweet 16 NCAA run

I think most on here would choose #2.  NCAA games are higher profile and carry more weight in my opinion.  From a program standpoint, again IMO, they are more impactful than regular season success.  Especially so when recruits seeing the team getting to the second weekend.

If you ask which would be chosen if the pattern were to repeat over a multi-year period, I think #2 is almost a lock for a solid majority.

Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 20, 2019, 01:36:51 PM
Plenty of coaches have sold UNLV with success. They're capable of getting better recruits than that.

Excluding Tarkanian, who has had lasting success at UNLV?  I really can't think of anyone but I could very well be mistaken.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Pakuni on November 20, 2019, 01:41:06 PM
Excluding Tarkanian, who has had lasting success at UNLV?  I really can't think of anyone but I could very well be mistaken.

Lon Kruger averaged 23 wins a season there and made the NCAA tournament four of his last five seasons before moving on to Oklahoma.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Silent Verbal on November 20, 2019, 02:01:48 PM
Lon Kruger averaged 23 wins a season there and made the NCAA tournament four of his last five seasons before moving on to Oklahoma.

I kind of view Buzz as the next Kruger, a vagabond who wins no matter where he is.  I’m not surprised Kruger got it done at a place other coaches couldn’t.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 20, 2019, 02:34:32 PM
Excluding Tarkanian, who has had lasting success at UNLV?  I really can't think of anyone but I could very well be mistaken.

Chris Beard in a Butterfly Effect alternate universe
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: GoldenWarrior11 on November 20, 2019, 02:39:14 PM
I kind of view Buzz as the next Kruger, a vagabond who wins no matter where he is.  I’m not surprised Kruger got it done at a place other coaches couldn’t.

Nice comparison (I've made that one too before). 

Buzz's longest tenure at any school has been Marquette (7 years).  Texas A&M will not be his last head coaching spot, IMO.  I think he will have at least one more move in him. 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 20, 2019, 02:42:06 PM
Nice comparison (I've made that one too before). 

Buzz's longest tenure at any school has been Marquette (7 years).  Texas A&M will not be his last head coaching spot, IMO.  I think he will have at least one more move in him.

Agreed, thinking he waits it out there until another one of the historically great programs opens up (ex. UK after Cal retires)
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: GoldenWarrior11 on November 20, 2019, 02:47:21 PM
Agreed, thinking he waits it out there until another one of the historically great programs opens up (ex. UK after Cal retires)

I could see that.  I could also see Kansas or Louisville.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: tower912 on November 20, 2019, 03:40:57 PM
Landing big time recruits.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on November 20, 2019, 03:46:33 PM
Landing big time recruits.
Who will inevitably regress because they play for a guy who can't coach - Wojo.  Wojo is great at buying himself 2-3-4 more years.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: TSmith34 on November 20, 2019, 03:47:33 PM
Who will inevitably regress because they play for a guy who can't coach - Wojo.  Wojo is great at buying himself 2-3-4 more years.
Troll is sad
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on November 20, 2019, 04:31:57 PM
Troll is sad
How could I be a troll by stating what we've seen manifest itself for Wojo's entire tenure.  People that call me a troll for this kind of thing act like Marquette has been some powerhouse, basketball factory for Wojo's tenure. 

We've had 3-4 talented chuckers take us to.... 2nd in the BE?  An NIT Elite Eight??

Yeah I'm a total troll because MU under Wojo has been a wagon, right?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Johnny B on November 20, 2019, 04:36:50 PM
Hey an elite 8s an elite  8
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on November 20, 2019, 08:21:32 PM
Lon Kruger averaged 23 wins a season there and made the NCAA tournament four of his last five seasons before moving on to Oklahoma.

Man. Completely forgot about Kruger. Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on November 20, 2019, 08:49:27 PM
Who will inevitably regress because they play for a guy who can't coach - Wojo.  Wojo is great at buying himself 2-3-4 more years.

Yeah, Markus really regressed.  LOL.  Theo regressed.  LOL. 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on November 20, 2019, 08:50:27 PM
How could I be a troll by stating what we've seen manifest itself for Wojo's entire tenure.  People that call me a troll for this kind of thing act like Marquette has been some powerhouse, basketball factory for Wojo's tenure. 

We've had 3-4 talented chuckers take us to.... 2nd in the BE?  An NIT Elite Eight??

Yeah I'm a total troll because MU under Wojo has been a wagon, right?

The current class being put together is the best class we have had in the Wojo era, so maybe we should see how it plays out.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MU82 on November 20, 2019, 10:00:24 PM
The list of coaches who might be interested in coming here under 9-9-9's dream scenario are all either mid-major head coaches or, in Stan's case, a high-major assistant.

Any of them might do well, but they are a far cry from the sure-thing, proven, high-major coaches that some delusional folks think would be beating down the door to coach at Marquette.

I wish established Big 14, ACC, Big 12, SEC and Pac-12 coaches with long histories of NCAA tournament success would want to coach at our alma mater. Unfortunately, that has not been the case. Even Al came from Belmont Abbey, followed by an assistant, followed by another assistant, followed by a mid-major, followed by an assistant, followed by a mid-major, followed by an assistant, followed by an assistant, followed by an assistant.

I am NOT saying the coach from Vermont would be unable to win big at Marquette. I am simply saying we don't know. The only thing we can be pretty sure of is that a bunch of tourney-proven, Power 6 head coaches won't be clamoring to leave their posts to come to MU.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: brewcity77 on November 20, 2019, 10:36:31 PM
I am NOT saying the coach from Vermont would be unable to win big at Marquette. I am simply saying we don't know. The only thing we can be pretty sure of is that a bunch of tourney-proven, Power 6 head coaches won't be clamoring to leave their posts to come to MU.

This is true, though not the reason I wouldn't want to fire Wojo. I've seen enough of a positive trajectory in terms of results and recruiting to believe the direction has promise. If you buy into the crapshoot, what if we had held on to our halftime lead over South Carolina and made their run that year? What if in 2018 we had gotten a ticket to Dayton instead of a high NIT seed and made the Sweet 16 run Syracuse did? What if we had even won one NCAA game last year? The same people calling for Wojo's head would be calling for his canonization.

But the "we don't know" argument could be stretched to virtually any coach. Thad Matta would probably take our job, but while he is young enough to have a long career, is he healthy enough? Ben Howland wanted our job, but his results have been decidedly mediocre at Mississippi State. Both are proven Power 6 coaches. Any coaching change is a roll of the dice. Whether it's a mid-major upstart like Becker or Beard or a high-major winner like Howland or Bennett.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on November 20, 2019, 10:58:10 PM
This is true, though not the reason I wouldn't want to fire Wojo. I've seen enough of a positive trajectory in terms of results and recruiting to believe the direction has promise. If you buy into the crapshoot, what if we had held on to our halftime lead over South Carolina and made their run that year? What if in 2018 we had gotten a ticket to Dayton instead of a high NIT seed and made the Sweet 16 run Syracuse did? What if we had even won one NCAA game last year? The same people calling for Wojo's head would be calling for his canonization.

But the "we don't know" argument could be stretched to virtually any coach. Thad Matta would probably take our job, but while he is young enough to have a long career, is he healthy enough? Ben Howland wanted our job, but his results have been decidedly mediocre at Mississippi State. Both are proven Power 6 coaches. Any coaching change is a roll of the dice. Whether it's a mid-major upstart like Becker or Beard or a high-major winner like Howland or Bennett.
What if???  What if Wojo could coach?  Having a halftime lead against a Final Four team and then getting blown out doesn't warrant a valid "what if we made their run??".  16 and 15 seeds have halftime leads over 1s and 2s fairly often enough to destroy that ridiculous hypothetical.

The fact is none of those things happened - nor was Wojo capable of making those runs.

That. Is. Why. We. Lost.

I don't buy into the crapshoot.  I would say 2/8 Elite Eight and 4/16 Sweet Sixteen can be classified as "Cinderellas" any given year.  That means - the overwhelming majority of the time - the right team makes a run.  The tournament is not quite the "crapshoot" Wojo defenders would like to dismiss it as.

And finally, not moving along from Wojo because we "don't know" what a future coach could be is about as bad of an argument to keep Wojo as I can think of.  By that logic, we should never let go of a coach because we aren't sure what's out there "we could even go 6 years without a tournament win!".  The fact is, Wojo is NOT the guy.  Someone else MIGHT be the guy - therefore, let's find out.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MU82 on November 20, 2019, 11:00:42 PM
This is true, though not the reason I wouldn't want to fire Wojo. I've seen enough of a positive trajectory in terms of results and recruiting to believe the direction has promise. If you buy into the crapshoot, what if we had held on to our halftime lead over South Carolina and made their run that year? What if in 2018 we had gotten a ticket to Dayton instead of a high NIT seed and made the Sweet 16 run Syracuse did? What if we had even won one NCAA game last year? The same people calling for Wojo's head would be calling for his canonization.

But the "we don't know" argument could be stretched to virtually any coach. Thad Matta would probably take our job, but while he is young enough to have a long career, is he healthy enough? Ben Howland wanted our job, but his results have been decidedly mediocre at Mississippi State. Both are proven Power 6 coaches. Any coaching change is a roll of the dice. Whether it's a mid-major upstart like Becker or Beard or a high-major winner like Howland or Bennett.

Good points, brewski.

Though I would add that Howland was not an active coach, and the same would be true about Matta.

Of course, Cuonzo Martin also supposedly wanted the job ... as a short-term stepping stone.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MU82 on November 20, 2019, 11:05:43 PM
And finally, not moving along from Wojo because we "don't know" what a future coach could be is about as bad of an argument to keep Wojo as I can think of.

Agreed. And the powers that be at Marquette don't make that argument; they think he's doing a good job. I suggest you boycott the program in protest.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: brewcity77 on November 21, 2019, 05:52:49 AM
The fact is, Wojo is NOT the guy.  Someone else MIGHT be the guy - therefore, let's find out.

I'm not saying he is, but you don't definitively know he isn't, and falsely asserting that as a fact doesn't make it so.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MUMonster03 on November 21, 2019, 07:14:46 AM
What if???  What if Wojo could coach?  Having a halftime lead against a Final Four team and then getting blown out doesn't warrant a valid "what if we made their run??".  16 and 15 seeds have halftime leads over 1s and 2s fairly often enough to destroy that ridiculous hypothetical.

The fact is none of those things happened - nor was Wojo capable of making those runs.

That. Is. Why. We. Lost.

I don't buy into the crapshoot.  I would say 2/8 Elite Eight and 4/16 Sweet Sixteen can be classified as "Cinderellas" any given year.  That means - the overwhelming majority of the time - the right team makes a run.  The tournament is not quite the "crapshoot" Wojo defenders would like to dismiss it as.

And finally, not moving along from Wojo because we "don't know" what a future coach could be is about as bad of an argument to keep Wojo as I can think of.  By that logic, we should never let go of a coach because we aren't sure what's out there "we could even go 6 years without a tournament win!".  The fact is, Wojo is NOT the guy.  Someone else MIGHT be the guy - therefore, let's find out.

1's and 2's losing and/or tied at the half is not as prevalent as you think.

Over the last ten year's only 11 15's or 16's have taken a tie or lead into the half out of 80 games. 4 of them went on to win.

Before 2019, where 3 15/16's had the halftime lead there was only 8 instances over 9 years.

So before 2019 a lead/tie at halftime basically made the game a coin flip.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on November 21, 2019, 07:21:14 AM
What if???  What if Wojo could coach?  Having a halftime lead against a Final Four team and then getting blown out doesn't warrant a valid "what if we made their run??".  16 and 15 seeds have halftime leads over 1s and 2s fairly often enough to destroy that ridiculous hypothetical.

The fact is none of those things happened - nor was Wojo capable of making those runs.

That. Is. Why. We. Lost.

I don't buy into the crapshoot.  I would say 2/8 Elite Eight and 4/16 Sweet Sixteen can be classified as "Cinderellas" any given year.  That means - the overwhelming majority of the time - the right team makes a run.  The tournament is not quite the "crapshoot" Wojo defenders would like to dismiss it as.

And finally, not moving along from Wojo because we "don't know" what a future coach could be is about as bad of an argument to keep Wojo as I can think of.  By that logic, we should never let go of a coach because we aren't sure what's out there "we could even go 6 years without a tournament win!".  The fact is, Wojo is NOT the guy.  Someone else MIGHT be the guy - therefore, let's find out.


I don’t think most believe that Wojo is NOT the guy. So don’t speak like it’s some universal truth.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on November 22, 2019, 12:06:23 AM

I don’t think most believe that Wojo is NOT the guy. So don’t speak like it’s some universal truth.
The man has gone 6 years and a full recruiting cycle with nothingggg to hang our hats on.  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

He's recruited well his whole tenure so let's not pretend like getting that ironed out is the key to the kingdom.  A good coach could have won with what Wojo has brought in.  He has not.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Vander Blue Man Group on November 22, 2019, 12:19:32 AM
The man has gone 6 years and a full recruiting cycle with nothingggg to hang our hats on.  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

He's recruited well his whole tenure so let's not pretend like getting that ironed out is the key to the kingdom.  A good coach could have won with what Wojo has brought in.  He has not.

To me the truth lies in the middle. Wojo has his strengths and weaknesses, like most coaches. Like many of you I’ve wanted him to bring in a more experienced assistant to help with game planning and adjustments but it seems clear that’s not happening.

This far into his tenure the question becomes is he showing improvement. This year will show a lot but this class he is putting together has bought him more time and rightfully so. Some don’t like that but it’s the best thing for the program.

I think he’s absolutely here for this season and two seasons after unless there’s some massive implosion, either off and/or on the court.

Let’s hope he keeps bringing in high level talent, learns from his mistakes, and becomes a better coach. If he can do that maybe Marquette becomes that program we all want and know it can be.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on November 22, 2019, 01:26:02 AM
To me the truth lies in the middle. Wojo has his strengths and weaknesses, like most coaches. Like many of you I’ve wanted him to bring in a more experienced assistant to help with game planning and adjustments but it seems clear that’s not happening.

This far into his tenure the question becomes is he showing improvement. This year will show a lot but this class he is putting together has bought him more time and rightfully so. Some don’t like that but it’s the best thing for the program.

I think he’s absolutely here for this season and two seasons after unless there’s some massive implosion, either off and/or on the court.

Let’s hope he keeps bringing in high level talent, learns from his mistakes, and becomes a better coach. If he can do that maybe Marquette becomes that program we all want and know it can be.
Ok so here for this season and two seasons after, sure.

Just humor me with a dumb hypothetical here.  What happens if we are in a same/similar boat after that clock runs out (i.e. 0-1 tourney wins, no conference title, no deep tourney run).  We will have let Wojo run this program for damn near a DECADE with no success.  Honestly, at this point, anything other than this hypothetical would have to be classified as a comeback for Wojo.

This is the danger in keeping Wojo around for this long with no success.  Rather than the Wojo tenure being a 4-5 year hiccup on the program after we were caught with our pants down by Buzz, we are letting Wojo's product become the program.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: willie warrior on November 22, 2019, 05:21:13 AM
Who will inevitably regress because they play for a guy who can't coach - Wojo.  Wojo is great at buying himself 2-3-4 more years.
That is a charming thought.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: brewcity77 on November 22, 2019, 05:46:51 AM
This should be titled "Brand new season, same old Scoop."
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on November 22, 2019, 07:41:10 AM
The man has gone 6 years and a full recruiting cycle with nothingggg to hang our hats on.  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

He's recruited well his whole tenure so let's not pretend like getting that ironed out is the key to the kingdom.  A good coach could have won with what Wojo has brought in.  He has not.


Again, that's your opinion.  Not a truth.  Welcome to logic.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 22, 2019, 08:57:36 AM
The man has gone 6 years and a full recruiting cycle with nothingggg to hang our hats on.  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

He's recruited well his whole tenure so let's not pretend like getting that ironed out is the key to the kingdom.  A good coach could have won with what Wojo has brought in.  He has not.

Odd that people are acting like this season is already over and we missed the tournament or something. Just a very weird vibe
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MU82 on November 22, 2019, 09:16:11 AM
What 5BuckChuck and others in his camp don't seem to get is that even if every single Scooper agreed with him, it's not going to change anything as far as MU administration's handling of Wojo.

Whether Scoopers happen to think Wojo is doing a good job or a bad job, it's highly unlikely that he will be fired in the next couple of years.

So sure, if it's what makes you happy, keep posting that he should already have been fired, that he should be fired today, that he should be fired tomorrow, that he should be fired next month, that he should be fired in March, etc.

Knock yourself out. Just know it's simply not going to happen.

I might as well say, "Every Scooper should give me all of his or her money." I'd love to see that happen, but somehow I don't think it will.

All y'all are so selfish!
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Silent Verbal on November 22, 2019, 10:08:52 AM
What 5BuckChuck and others in his camp don't seem to get is that even if every single Scooper agreed with him, it's not going to change anything as far as MU administration's handling of Wojo.

Whether Scoopers happen to think Wojo is doing a good job or a bad job, it's highly unlikely that he will be fired in the next couple of years.

So sure, if it's what makes you happy, keep posting that he should already have been fired, that he should be fired today, that he should be fired tomorrow, that he should be fired next month, that he should be fired in March, etc.

Knock yourself out. Just know it's simply not going to happen.

I might as well say, "Every Scooper should give me all of his or her money." I'd love to see that happen, but somehow I don't think it will.

All y'all are so selfish!

Yep.  And no matter how many hilarious Shaka jokes get made, it’s not going to stop Wojo from leaving for a better or higher paying job if the opportunity presents itself.  Most Scoopers aren’t delusional enough to believe their opinions matter one iota when it comes to the actual operations of Marquette basketball.  This is a message board and reading opinions from both sides is what makes it enjoyable. 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Herman Cain on November 22, 2019, 10:16:47 AM
Ok so here for this season and two seasons after, sure.

Just humor me with a dumb hypothetical here.  What happens if we are in a same/similar boat after that clock runs out (i.e. 0-1 tourney wins, no conference title, no deep tourney run).  We will have let Wojo run this program for damn near a DECADE with no success.  Honestly, at this point, anything other than this hypothetical would have to be classified as a comeback for Wojo.

This is the danger in keeping Wojo around for this long with no success.  Rather than the Wojo tenure being a 4-5 year hiccup on the program after we were caught with our pants down by Buzz, we are letting Wojo's product become the program.
When the Coaching Carousel comes up, Wojo will get an attractive offer from a P5 Football conference school and take it .  Wojo sees how easy life is for Chris Mack and Chris Holtmann on the recruiting trail since they took the money and ran,  and Wojo is going to want some of that action too.

Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: tower912 on November 22, 2019, 10:25:55 AM
Perhaps, but you, too, are using opinion and conjecture as fact.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Warrior Code on November 22, 2019, 10:40:54 AM
When the Coaching Carousel comes up, Wojo will get an attractive offer from a P5 Football conference school and take it .  Wojo sees how easy life is for Chris Mack and Chris Holtmann on the recruiting trail since they took the money and ran,  and Wojo is going to want some of that action too.

Jobs like Louisville and Ohio State don't exactly open up every day.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: lurch91 on November 22, 2019, 10:48:16 AM
Jobs like Louisville and Ohio State don't exactly open up every day.

Correct, look what it took to get Pitino fired.  But then look at Alford, he does better at non P5 schools than he does at P5 schools.  Something to be said for that.  Hell, ask KO.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MU82 on November 22, 2019, 10:57:47 AM
Yep.  And no matter how many hilarious Shaka jokes get made, it’s not going to stop Wojo from leaving for a better or higher paying job if the opportunity presents itself.  Most Scoopers aren’t delusional enough to believe their opinions matter one iota when it comes to the actual operations of Marquette basketball.  This is a message board and reading opinions from both sides is what makes it enjoyable.

Totally understand this. We're all a bunch of knuckleheads.

What really frosted my flakes with Wojo was the way he let the team lose to Georgetown last season. I mean, a Shaka-coached team would NEVER lose to Georgetown!
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on November 22, 2019, 11:00:29 AM
Jobs like Louisville and Ohio State don't exactly open up every day.


No but I can see some jobs that may open up this year where mutual interest could exist.

Georgia Tech, Maryland, Stanford, Illinois
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 22, 2019, 11:35:16 AM
Wojo is great at buying himself 2-3-4 more years.
What he’s great at is averting the eyes of the fan base from the virtual dumpster fire. I cannot believe people dismiss the idea that Wojo is not the answer. He’s got zero rapport with his players. MU needs to do itself a favor and stop posting videos of his Walking Dead post game “speeches.”

Thank God his assistants kept 2 or 3 guys from following the Hausers out the door or the roster would be filled with walk ons.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Warrior Code on November 22, 2019, 11:47:26 AM

No but I can see some jobs that may open up this year where mutual interest could exist.

Georgia Tech, Maryland, Stanford, Illinois

Those can all be nice jobs but they don't have anywhere near the recruiting advantages Herman was talking about. Plus, and I don't know about the other three, but Underwood isn't going anywhere.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MU82 on November 22, 2019, 11:55:37 AM
What he’s great at is averting the eyes of the fan base from the virtual dumpster fire. I cannot believe people dismiss the idea that Wojo is not the answer. He’s got zero rapport with his players. MU needs to do itself a favor and stop posting videos of his Walking Dead post game “speeches.”

Thank God his assistants kept 2 or 3 guys from following the Hausers out the door or the roster would be filled with walk ons.

Apparently, Wojo also is great at diverting the eyes of the administration. I highly recommend you take your proof of his incompetence to them.

As for your closing sentence: Yep, every single good thing that has happened the last 5+ years is because the assistant coaches and/or the players are able to overcome the bumbling head coach ... but every single bad thing that has happened during the same span is because of the bumbling head coach.

Wait ... not every single bad thing is Wojo's fault. Some of it is The Cancer's fault.

Of course, the fact that The Cancer is a Warrior is Wojo's fault, so never mind, every single bad thing is indeed Wojo's fault.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MU1980 on November 22, 2019, 12:04:13 PM
What he’s great at is averting the eyes of the fan base from the virtual dumpster fire. I cannot believe people dismiss the idea that Wojo is not the answer. He’s got zero rapport with his players. MU needs to do itself a favor and stop posting videos of his Walking Dead post game “speeches.”

Thank God his assistants kept 2 or 3 guys from following the Hausers out the door or the roster would be filled with walk ons.

Thank God that Justin, Oso and Dawson have quite a bit more insight and intelligence than you do in determining what University is the best opportunity for them.  We really would have a bunch of walk-on's if the people that actually do know about college basketball thought like you, but thankfully that is not the case. 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 22, 2019, 12:05:15 PM

No but I can see some jobs that may open up this year where mutual interest could exist.

Georgia Tech, Maryland, Stanford, Illinois

GT? a third-rate ACC school? Sure Buzz did it but he's a proven looney toon when it comes to job hop motivation
Maryland, is Turgeon retiring or something? genuinely don't know
Stanford, after 1 tournament appearance in the past 11 years? and his Duke counterpart Dawkins flamed out with no discernible success?
Illinois, is Underwood getting fired after 3 years and a probable tourney appearance this year?

all seem far-fetched to me but I guess stranger things have happened
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MU82 on November 22, 2019, 01:45:12 PM
Thank God that Justin, Oso and Dawson have quite a bit more insight and intelligence than you do in determining what University is the best opportunity for them.  We really would have a bunch of walk-on's if the people that actually do know about college basketball thought like you, but thankfully that is not the case.

Good point.

Not only is Wojo "averting the eyes of the fan base" and obviously "averting the eyes" of the administration, but he also apparently is "averting the eyes" of the high-level recruits he keeps signing.

He must be one heck of a magician or something.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on November 22, 2019, 06:36:15 PM
What he’s great at is averting the eyes of the fan base from the virtual dumpster fire. I cannot believe people dismiss the idea that Wojo is not the answer. He’s got zero rapport with his players. MU needs to do itself a favor and stop posting videos of his Walking Dead post game “speeches.”

Thank God his assistants kept 2 or 3 guys from following the Hausers out the door or the roster would be filled with walk ons.

Zero rapport...LOL.  How much crap are you going to continue to make up? 

Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on January 01, 2020, 11:38:06 PM
At least we can beat Central Arkansas.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on January 01, 2020, 11:45:01 PM
At least we can beat Central Arkansas.

And Purdue, and Kansas State, and USC, and Davidson...and soon to add probably 9 to 10 Big East teams.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on January 02, 2020, 07:37:31 AM
And Purdue, and Kansas State, and USC, and Davidson...and soon to add probably 9 to 10 Big East teams.

Let me know which games.  I'll look at taking the other side of that action and get back to you.

And if you think winning nine or ten BE games is acceptable at this point of Wojo's tenure with the talent on this team (and these is a lot of talent here), then we have wildly different sets of expectations regarding the capabilities of the MU program.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: dgies9156 on January 02, 2020, 08:14:48 AM
A couple of thoughts:

1) Wojo may well be where Rick Majerus was when he coached us back in the 1980s. Learning. This is Wojo's first stop and my fear is he or we will get fed up and change, only to find Wojo at his "University of Utah" creating his own Duke. On one hand, how much more of what we saw last night can we take? On the other hand, is there a light at the end of the tunnel?

2) Last night truly was unacceptable and kinda disgusting. Even to the "we should have lost crowd," losing how we did to Creighton is unacceptable. That was a complete meltdown last seen in Hartford, Ct, last spring. I expect we will be competitive in EVERY game we play. We weren't last night.

3) You have to take each season a game at a time. While the St. John's game last year was a complete cluster, we did OK during the season last year. If we do come back and play well Saturday, all will be forgiven -- until the next game.

4) Sorry to say gang, it's not about wins and losses, it's about money. As in, how much revenue and net income is generated by basketball. Marquette is not going to make a change until Dr. Lovell and the BOT see revenue at risk. When revenue decreases, even modestly, due to lessened attendance, memorabilia sales, donations and more of our games being on FS MCCXII (like DePaul was), our current coach will be squished like a cockroach eyeing a buffet.

5) As I said earlier, I was disgusted (as a fan) at last night's game. We're at best a mediocre team without the depth to overcome an off-night by Markus. As Big East coaches realize this, expect some brut combination to follow Markus around like ants to the sugar bowl. He's not quick enough to shed a double team at the perimeter. If I'm Jay Wright, I tell my guys let Sacar, Brendan and Koby beat us (we know Theo and Ed won't). Just don't let Markus Howard get started!

6) All of this said, I don't see anything on the horizon to solve our problems next year (we're two to three years out at best) and so, the question has to be, is it time for a rebuild. I'm openly concerned that we're going no where fast, but I hope have to eat my words!

Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on January 02, 2020, 09:25:21 AM
Let me know which games.  I'll look at taking the other side of that action and get back to you.

And if you think winning nine or ten BE games is acceptable at this point of Wojo's tenure with the talent on this team (and these is a lot of talent here), then we have wildly different sets of expectations regarding the capabilities of the MU program.

Uhm, winning that number of games is based on how good the league is.  We may have wildly different expectations, I'm not stuck in the 70's any longer and I don't believe in running a dirty program in the 2000's is proper either.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Elonsmusk on January 02, 2020, 09:33:00 AM
And Purdue, and Kansas State, and USC, and Davidson...and soon to add probably 9 to 10 Big East teams.

So it's come to this?  Championing wins against:

#89 Kansas State
#69 USC
#77 Davidson

#rebuildcomplete
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Goose on January 02, 2020, 11:06:42 AM
dgies

I agree with most of your posts, but have one different thought in regards to revenue. I do not believe the BOT has any fear of the fan revenue being reduced by on court performance. It appears to me that they believe fans will remain loyal provided a decent product on the court and no off court issues. In all seriousness, based off this board, most of the under 40 posters believe the program is going the right direction. While I do not know how many have tickets to the games, it seems the majority see a silver lining in every game.

As noted on here often, only the old timers that remember Al are the most frustrated. The younger guns point out this is the not the 70's or we have three Q2 wins and Kenpom has us only down two notches after a loss. For some, the end of last year and last nights performance bothers them more than it does other fans. The bar is much lower for majority of fans and MU knows it.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 02, 2020, 11:11:54 AM
dgies

I agree with most of your posts, but have one different thought in regards to revenue. I do not believe the BOT has any fear of the fan revenue being reduced by on court performance. It appears to me that they believe fans will remain loyal provided a decent product on the court and no off court issues. In all seriousness, based off this board, most of the under 40 posters believe the program is going the right direction. While I do not know how many have tickets to the games, it seems the majority see a silver lining in every game.

As noted on here often, only the old timers that remember Al are the most frustrated. The younger guns point out this is the not the 70's or we have three Q2 wins and Kenpom has us only down two notches after a loss. For some, the end of last year and last nights performance bothers them more than it does other fans. The bar is much lower for majority of fans and MU knows it.


These are two completely false statements.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MUfan12 on January 02, 2020, 11:13:33 AM
It appears to me that they believe fans will remain loyal provided a decent product on the court and no off court issues. In all seriousness, based off this board, most of the under 40 posters believe the program is going the right direction.

FWIW, my experience has been the opposite. I'm in the 30-40 demographic, and the vast majority of people I talk to think Wojo is out of his depth.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Goose on January 02, 2020, 11:21:21 AM
MUfan 12

I stand corrected. Maybe it is just several posters that support him non stop that stick out to me. Thanks for providing me with optimism.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: dinger on January 02, 2020, 11:29:00 AM
FWIW, my experience has been the opposite. I'm in the 30-40 demographic, and the vast majority of people I talk to think Wojo is out of his depth.

30-40 here, as well as all my college buddies (but not for much longer  :o)
Most of my college friends honestly stopped paying much attention to MUBB, and all of them wanted Wojo gone a couple years ago. I was probably last of my group of friends on the wojo wagon.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: cheebs09 on January 02, 2020, 11:35:12 AM
I’m in the 30-40 and definitely hear a lot of frustration from MU friends. Also, I feel like the students are pretty disengaged from the team due to lack of success based on trips to campus and talking with interns.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MUfan12 on January 02, 2020, 12:45:23 PM

Most of my college friends honestly stopped paying much attention to MUBB, and all of them wanted Wojo gone a couple years ago. I was probably last of my group of friends on the wojo wagon.

This is what should have MU alarmed long term. That's the group they need to donate/fill the lower bowl down the road.

I'll always keep my tickets. MU hoops has been a part of my life since I was three. But will I plunk down the scratch to upgrade? On the current trajectory, highly unlikely.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Lennys Tap on January 02, 2020, 12:59:23 PM
Uhm, winning that number of games is based on how good the league is.  We may have wildly different expectations, I'm not stuck in the 70's any longer and I don't believe in running a dirty program in the 2000's is proper either.

Glad you’re not “stuck in the 70s” (or late 60s) even though those were such great memories for you. Remind us - how old were you and what was your close connection to MU back then that might have precipitated you getting “stuck” in that era?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Goose on January 02, 2020, 01:05:59 PM
Lenny

Cheeks is literally losing it. Plus, saw that Warrior Dad popped up on a post earlier today. He sure gets around.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on January 02, 2020, 01:08:51 PM
Glad you’re not “stuck in the 70s” (or late 60s) even though those were such great memories for you. Remind us - how old were you and what was your close connection to MU back then that might have precipitated you getting “stuck” in that era?

The world has changed, especially in college athletics.  A lot of great things used to happen to many programs.  I still think we can be really good, occasionally Final Four good.  The days of what we had in the 70's of being 2nd, 3rd or 4th best team of the decade (depending on what source one uses) I believe are gone unless someone like Al McGuire walks in.  For the same reason why I think Mark Few retiring sets them back.  Very few programs have been great long haul through multiple coaches, and low and behold most of them have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar to make sure they stayed or got back to relevance. 

Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Goose on January 02, 2020, 01:14:39 PM
Cheeks

You bring up the Al era more than anyone on this board. Only an idiot would believe that era could be repeated. Nova and Zags can be replicated and some here believe that and want that. This program has made little progress in 5+ years and that is a fact. I have said way too many times over the past five years that I would take a Xavier run and be happy. I firmly believe Wojo is not the right guy for this job and possibly any HC position.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Elonsmusk on January 02, 2020, 01:17:29 PM
Lenny

Cheeks is literally losing it. Plus, saw that Warrior Dad popped up on a post earlier today. He sure gets around.

He's definitely unhinged.  I does take a more measured tone as Billy Hoyle and Warrior Dad. 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on January 02, 2020, 01:38:15 PM
Uhm, winning that number of games is based on how good the league is.  We may have wildly different expectations, I'm not stuck in the 70's any longer and I don't believe in running a dirty program in the 2000's is proper either.

For the record, I was in the Bob Dukiet era.  While I am not "stuck in the 70's", I do want to avoid sliding back into the late '80s.

Wojo had show NO ability to adapt and too stubborn to bring in a more experienced coach to help smooth that out. Someone posted that Wojo could be like Majerus, maybe so, that would be great, but RM was a student of the game, always changing and adapting. Not Wojo's skill set.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on January 02, 2020, 01:41:38 PM
Cheeks

You bring up the Al era more than anyone on this board. Only an idiot would believe that era could be repeated. Nova and Zags can be replicated and some here believe that and want that. This program has made little progress in 5+ years and that is a fact. I have said way too many times over the past five years that I would take a Xavier run and be happy. I firmly believe Wojo is not the right guy for this job and possibly any HC position.

I graphically illustrated on a number of occasions it has made quite a bit of progress in five years.  The numbers don't lie.

6 years ago we were 93rd in Ken Pom
Today we are 37th.  Last year we were 33rd.  Three years ago 32nd

I don't see how that lines up with little to no improvement.  I also see our best recruiting class in a LONG time coming in next year, again don't see how that is not improvement.

As for the 70's stuff, I agree that only an idiot would believe that, but we sure have a lot our fair share of folks who bring up Al, the good old days, "know it can be done because it was done back in the day", etc....I'm sure you can understand why I respond accordingly because they do, in my opinon, seem to be stuck in a different time era.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: 79Warrior on January 02, 2020, 01:51:33 PM
I graphically illustrated on a number of occasions it has made quite a bit of progress in five years.  The numbers don't lie.

6 years ago we were 93rd in Ken Pom
Today we are 37th.  Last year we were 33rd.  Three years ago 32nd

I don't see how that lines up with little to no improvement.  I also see our best recruiting class in a LONG time coming in next year, again don't see how that is not improvement.

As for the 70's stuff, I agree that only an idiot would believe that, but we sure have a lot our fair share of folks who bring up Al, the good old days, "know it can be done because it was done back in the day", etc....I'm sure you can understand why I respond accordingly because they do, in my opinon, seem to be stuck in a different time era.

Actually, if you would respond less it would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: BM1090 on January 02, 2020, 01:53:20 PM
For the record, I was in the Bob Dukiet era.  While I am not "stuck in the 70's", I do want to avoid sliding back into the late '80s.

Wojo had show NO ability to adapt and too stubborn to bring in a more experienced coach to help smooth that out. Someone posted that Wojo could be like Majerus, maybe so, that would be great, but RM was a student of the game, always changing and adapting. Not Wojo's skill set.

No ability to adapt? He completely overhauled the defensive scheme after two piss poor seasons and now we have been top 50 for the past two years.

I don't think anyone is thrilled with the current state of the program but it's impossible to have rational discussions when false, blanket statements are constantly thrown out.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Elonsmusk on January 02, 2020, 01:56:49 PM
I graphically illustrated on a number of occasions it has made quite a bit of progress in five years.  The numbers don't lie.

6 years ago we were 93rd in Ken Pom
Today we are 37th.  Last year we were 33rd.  Three years ago 32nd

I don't see how that lines up with little to no improvement.  I also see our best recruiting class in a LONG time coming in next year, again don't see how that is not improvement.

As for the 70's stuff, I agree that only an idiot would believe that, but we sure have a lot our fair share of folks who bring up Al, the good old days, "know it can be done because it was done back in the day", etc....I'm sure you can understand why I respond accordingly because they do, in my opinon, seem to be stuck in a different time era.

Why do you lie?  Next year's class is currently rated lower than the Scoop Meme "empty cupboard" class Buzz left Wojo.

And, it doesn't matter.  Wojo can't coach.  It is unlikely Markus Howard will leave MU having never won an NCAA tournament game.  And he's had some really good talent alongside him.  Doesn't matter.


Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 02, 2020, 02:11:55 PM
No ability to adapt? He completely overhauled the defensive scheme after two piss poor seasons and now we have been top 50 for the past two years.

I don't think anyone is thrilled with the current state of the program but it's impossible to have rational discussions when false, blanket statements are constantly thrown out.
And top 50 defense has gotten us where?

Nowhere

All you have to do is watch any game to see lack of structure on defense.  Wojo has never had a system and never will.  MU, during Wojo's reign, has lacked continuity on defense.  Any shot of Markus Howard making it into the NBA were shot when he chose Wojo.  Howard lacks the defensive skills necessary to have any shot making it in the pros. 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: marquette09 on January 02, 2020, 02:24:09 PM
This is what should have MU alarmed long term. That's the group they need to donate/fill the lower bowl down the road.

I'll always keep my tickets. MU hoops has been a part of my life since I was three. But will I plunk down the scratch to upgrade? On the current trajectory, highly unlikely.

Completely agree.  I’m in that 30-40 group.   I’ll keep my tickets, but won’t be upgrading based on this trajectory.   
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: BM1090 on January 02, 2020, 03:18:35 PM
Completely agree.  I’m in that 30-40 group.   I’ll keep my tickets, but won’t be upgrading based on this trajectory.

Not quite into that group yet but I mostly agree. I'll be sticking to my seats in the uppers.

But to be honest I'd probably keep my uppers even if MU was 30-0 every year. I like the view and I've grown to enjoy watching games from higher up.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on January 02, 2020, 03:20:16 PM
For the record, I was in the Bob Dukiet era.  While I am not "stuck in the 70's", I do want to avoid sliding back into the late '80s.

Wojo had show NO ability to adapt and too stubborn to bring in a more experienced coach to help smooth that out. Someone posted that Wojo could be like Majerus, maybe so, that would be great, but RM was a student of the game, always changing and adapting. Not Wojo's skill set.

I was in the 80's as well and we are nowhere close to slipping back to it.  Where do some people get this stuff?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on January 02, 2020, 03:26:32 PM
Why do you lie?  Next year's class is currently rated lower than the Scoop Meme "empty cupboard" class Buzz left Wojo.

And, it doesn't matter.  Wojo can't coach.  It is unlikely Markus Howard will leave MU having never won an NCAA tournament game.  And he's had some really good talent alongside him.  Doesn't matter.

What am I lying about?  First off, that class you are talking about with Buzz had 5 players, this class has three.  Depending on the ranking system used, some tally up points on QUANTITY and quality.  That class was ranked 9th.  It also had several guys that ended up playing mid major ball and one kid that NEVER even played at MU, but yet you are accusing me of lying?  Take out Mr. McKay and that class goes down considerably. 

The 2020 class for Wojo might not even be done yet, but yes...you go ahead and tout about who's lying when you bring that crap in here.

https://247sports.com/college/marquette/Season/2013-Basketball/Commits/    Bare Cupboard class

https://247sports.com/college/marquette/Season/2020-Basketball/Commits/    Wojo's class next year
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on January 02, 2020, 03:30:42 PM
No ability to adapt? He completely overhauled the defensive scheme after two piss poor seasons and now we have been top 50 for the past two years.

I don't think anyone is thrilled with the current state of the program but it's impossible to have rational discussions when false, blanket statements are constantly thrown out.

By "overhauling the defensive scheme" do you mean having a few people who couldn't play defense graduate? 

And there is also the other end of the floor... 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 02, 2020, 03:35:54 PM
By "overhauling the defensive scheme" do you mean having a few people who couldn't play defense graduate? 

And there is also the other end of the floor...

Matt Heldt had heart though and got the lower bowl excited when he got a hustle rebound or putback.  He was the guy every female lower bowl attendee wanted their daughter to bring home for Thanksgiving.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: BM1090 on January 02, 2020, 03:37:43 PM
By "overhauling the defensive scheme" do you mean having a few people who couldn't play defense graduate? 

And there is also the other end of the floor...

No, I mean switching from an extended, high-pressure, man-to-man defense focused on creating turnovers to a low-pressure, man-to-man defense focused on protecting the paint and not creating turnovers. It's literally completely different.

Dr. Blackheart had a nice breakdown of it awhile back if you care to look.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Mutaman on January 02, 2020, 03:39:59 PM
He's definitely unhinged.  I does take a more measured tone as Billy Hoyle and Warrior Dad.

He clearly needs professional help. I know that he's like a car wreck in terms of watching but i think he'd be better off if we just ignored him.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 02, 2020, 03:40:51 PM
Wojo had no business running a high pressure defense with athletes of limited ability to begin with.  That alone should tell someone how inept Wojo's vision is.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on January 02, 2020, 03:42:49 PM
I was in the 80's as well and we are nowhere close to slipping back to it.  Where do some people get this stuff?

We are currently in the longest stretch since the period between Hank Raymonds (in 1981-1982) and Kevin O'Neill (in 1993-1994), a 12 year span, without an NCAA tournament win.  During that time, we either lost in the first round or didn't make the tournament.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquette_Golden_Eagles_men%27s_basketball

We are now in year six (Buzz's last in 2013-2014) through last year (2018-2019) without an NCAA tournament win. That is where I get this stuff. 

And like it or not, wins in the Big Dance mean something.  To recruits, to high school coaches, to "influencers" and the like.  Going .500 in Big East play is not going to feed the bulldog.  I am sorry, it isn't.  We need to move forward in March (if we get there this year) or eventually the brand will start to tarnish again, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 02, 2020, 03:46:44 PM
We are currently in the longest stretch since the period between Hank Raymonds (in 1981-1982) and Kevin O'Neill (in 1993-1994), a 12 year span, without an NCAA tournament win.  During that time, we either lost in the first round or didn't make the tournament.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquette_Golden_Eagles_men%27s_basketball

We are now in year six (Buzz's last in 2013-2014) through last year (2018-2019) without an NCAA tournament win. That is where I get this stuff. 

And like it or not, wins in the Big Dance mean something.  To recruits, to high school coaches, to "influencers" and the like.  Going .500 in Big East play is not going to feed the bulldog.  I am sorry, it isn't.  We need to move forward in March (if we get there this year) or eventually the brand will start to tarnish again, in my opinion.

Thank you for posting this.  This just goes to show how bad Wojo is when it comes to the history of MU and it's basketball culture. 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on January 02, 2020, 03:58:11 PM
He clearly needs professional help. I know that he's like a car wreck in terms of watching but i think he'd be better off if we just ignored him.

Proven wrong and the attacks keep coming....it's how you roll...but you did it without a racist or political comment...progress for you.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on January 02, 2020, 04:01:05 PM
Lenny

Cheeks is literally losing it. Plus, saw that Warrior Dad popped up on a post earlier today. He sure gets around.

LOL.  Everyone who doesn't agree with someone is losing it.  I have no control over how other posters post, when they post, etc.  Doing a quick search, however, it appears he posted on the 31st and the 28th, 20th, etc.

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=10946

Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on January 02, 2020, 04:04:43 PM
We are currently in the longest stretch since the period between Hank Raymonds (in 1981-1982) and Kevin O'Neill (in 1993-1994), a 12 year span, without an NCAA tournament win.  During that time, we either lost in the first round or didn't make the tournament.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquette_Golden_Eagles_men%27s_basketball

We are now in year six (Buzz's last in 2013-2014) through last year (2018-2019) without an NCAA tournament win. That is where I get this stuff. 

And like it or not, wins in the Big Dance mean something.  To recruits, to high school coaches, to "influencers" and the like.  Going .500 in Big East play is not going to feed the bulldog.  I am sorry, it isn't.  We need to move forward in March (if we get there this year) or eventually the brand will start to tarnish again, in my opinion.

Well, since we just signed our best recruiting class in years....apparently your logic isn't holding to reality.  Right?  Yes, if this goes on for a long time it will have an impact, but it hasn't...in fact our recruiting is better than it has been in years.

Yes, we went 12 years without a NCAA win...guess what's also true...we have made the NCAA tournament 2 of the last 3 years and if the tournament started today, we would be in 3 of the last 4.  We can all selectively pick data.   
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on January 02, 2020, 05:48:56 PM
Well, since we just signed our best recruiting class in years....apparently your logic isn't holding to reality.  Right?  Yes, if this goes on for a long time it will have an impact, but it hasn't...in fact our recruiting is better than it has been in years.

Yes, we went 12 years without a NCAA win...guess what's also true...we have made the NCAA tournament 2 of the last 3 years and if the tournament started today, we would be in 3 of the last 4.  We can all selectively pick data.

True. And lost by an average margin of 19 points. 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on January 02, 2020, 06:59:17 PM
True. And lost by an average margin of 19 points.

Yup, and recruiting hasn't fallen but actually got better....
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 02, 2020, 07:03:54 PM
Yup, and recruiting hasn't fallen but actually got better....

Again, you have to see how these players actually perform.  Matt Heldt and Hanniff Cheatam were 4 star recruits and part of a #12 ranked recruiting class that didn't even make the NCAA tourney.  I'd like to see a study done on that.  How many top #15 recruiting classes never went on to win an NCAA tourney game?  I'm sure Wojo set a record there.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on January 02, 2020, 07:14:10 PM
Again, you have to see how these players actually perform.  Matt Heldt and Hanniff Cheatam were 4 star recruits and part of a #12 ranked recruiting class that didn't even make the NCAA tourney.  I'd like to see a study done on that.  How many top #15 recruiting classes never went on to win an NCAA tourney game?  I'm sure Wojo set a record there.

Agreed, we do....but on paper alone, it has gotten better despite the predictions by many here that it wouldn't.  We will see what happens when they hit the court because you are absolutely correct that anything can happen, players don't pan out, etc.  On paper = better.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 02, 2020, 07:14:38 PM
Again, you have to see how these players actually perform.  Matt Heldt and Hanniff Cheatam were 4 star recruits and part of a #12 ranked recruiting class that didn't even make the NCAA tourney.  I'd like to see a study done on that.  How many top #15 recruiting classes never went on to win an NCAA tourney game?  I'm sure Wojo set a record there.

Members of that class played in both of Wojo’s tourney appearances.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 02, 2020, 08:03:58 PM
Members of that class played in both of Wojo’s tourney appearances.

Yes, but lost.  It takes a special coach to garner a #12 recruiting class and not parlay it into an NCAA tourney victory, especially in a field of 68.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on January 02, 2020, 08:08:59 PM
Yes, but lost.  It takes a special coach to garner a #12 recruiting class and not parlay it into an NCAA tourney victory, especially in a field of 68.

Especially since that #12 class included a player that never came to MU and two that transferred out....but who's keeping track of those silly facts.  Kind of hard to win with that recruiting class when McKay is at Iowa State along with Burton, and Dawson (vastly overrated) transfers to Liberty.  That is a classic example of what was on paper isn't what was on the court.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 02, 2020, 09:16:46 PM
Especially since that #12 class included a player that never came to MU and two that transferred out....but who's keeping track of those silly facts.  Kind of hard to win with that recruiting class when McKay is at Iowa State along with Burton, and Dawson (vastly overrated) transfers to Liberty.  That is a classic example of what was on paper isn't what was on the court.
It's more like 4 stars Heldt and Cheatam never came close to panning out.  Again, shoddy player development/inability to find players that fit a system - because there isn't a system.  No Vision and No Clue on how to put a team together. 
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on January 02, 2020, 09:35:23 PM
Agreed, we do....but on paper alone, it has gotten better despite the predictions by many here that it wouldn't.  We will see what happens when they hit the court because you are absolutely correct that anything can happen, players don't pan out, etc.  On paper = better.

Last I checked, games won on "paper" don't count.

On the court, not on paper, we haven't won a NCAA Tournament game in six years.  The fact that this has been the case with talented teams (on paper), rests at the feet of the coaches.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on January 02, 2020, 10:35:09 PM
It's more like 4 stars Heldt and Cheatam never came close to panning out.  Again, shoddy player development/inability to find players that fit a system - because there isn't a system.  No Vision and No Clue on how to put a team together.

Matt Heldt was a 3 star in most services.  He was mostly offered by mid majors.  Yes, some had him as a 4 star.  Let’s not go overboard with the ranking.

https://247sports.com/player/matt-heldt-24392/

Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: Cheeks on January 02, 2020, 10:36:18 PM
Last I checked, games won on "paper" don't count.

On the court, not on paper, we haven't won a NCAA Tournament game in six years.  The fact that this has been the case with talented teams (on paper), rests at the feet of the coaches.

Agreed, which is why I said we will see how it pans out on the court.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: brewcity77 on January 03, 2020, 12:28:44 PM
Wojo had no business running a high pressure defense with athletes of limited ability to begin with.  That alone should tell someone how inept Wojo's vision is.

He used that with guys like Jajuan Johnson, Duane Wilson, & Haanif Cheatham, who had decent length and quickness for their positions. He moved away from it after they left.

Players like Jamal Cain & Greg Elliott are well suited to such a system. Not sure the rest of the current roster is, though.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on January 03, 2020, 01:06:36 PM
Yeah, and it didn't work or come close to working.  Next excuse please.
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on March 04, 2020, 09:53:01 AM
Bump.  Again.

DePaul?  Really?

OK everyone who jumped on me when I posted this way back at the start of the season, let's hear about how great this year is going to be.  How Wojo will ride Markus to glory.  How the end of last year is a distant memory that is not going to be repeated.   That the second half against Purdue is foreshadowing great things. 

F-ing DePaul.  Justify it.  Go ahead.

Yes, I am pissed.  To waste the talent of a player like Markus and the undeveloped talent that is on this team is infuriating.  It should never have been allowed to happen.   
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: 4everwarriors on March 04, 2020, 06:52:11 PM
Interestin' how it took a fookin' loss to a Chicago rival ta get y'all's shmeckles twisted in a knot, hey?
Title: Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
Post by: f/k/a humanlung on March 04, 2020, 06:57:54 PM
Interestin' how it took a fookin' loss to a Chicago rival ta get y'all's shmeckles twisted in a knot, hey?

My shmeckles been twisting all season...this put a vice grip on 'em.