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Author Topic: Brand new season, same old Wojo.  (Read 17120 times)

Pakuni

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #300 on: November 20, 2019, 01:41:06 PM »
Excluding Tarkanian, who has had lasting success at UNLV?  I really can't think of anyone but I could very well be mistaken.

Lon Kruger averaged 23 wins a season there and made the NCAA tournament four of his last five seasons before moving on to Oklahoma.

Silent Verbal

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #301 on: November 20, 2019, 02:01:48 PM »
Lon Kruger averaged 23 wins a season there and made the NCAA tournament four of his last five seasons before moving on to Oklahoma.

I kind of view Buzz as the next Kruger, a vagabond who wins no matter where he is.  I’m not surprised Kruger got it done at a place other coaches couldn’t.

Ellenson Family Reunion

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #302 on: November 20, 2019, 02:34:32 PM »
Excluding Tarkanian, who has had lasting success at UNLV?  I really can't think of anyone but I could very well be mistaken.

Chris Beard in a Butterfly Effect alternate universe

GoldenWarrior11

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #303 on: November 20, 2019, 02:39:14 PM »
I kind of view Buzz as the next Kruger, a vagabond who wins no matter where he is.  I’m not surprised Kruger got it done at a place other coaches couldn’t.

Nice comparison (I've made that one too before). 

Buzz's longest tenure at any school has been Marquette (7 years).  Texas A&M will not be his last head coaching spot, IMO.  I think he will have at least one more move in him. 

Ellenson Family Reunion

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #304 on: November 20, 2019, 02:42:06 PM »
Nice comparison (I've made that one too before). 

Buzz's longest tenure at any school has been Marquette (7 years).  Texas A&M will not be his last head coaching spot, IMO.  I think he will have at least one more move in him.

Agreed, thinking he waits it out there until another one of the historically great programs opens up (ex. UK after Cal retires)

GoldenWarrior11

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #305 on: November 20, 2019, 02:47:21 PM »
Agreed, thinking he waits it out there until another one of the historically great programs opens up (ex. UK after Cal retires)

I could see that.  I could also see Kansas or Louisville.

tower912

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #306 on: November 20, 2019, 03:40:57 PM »
Landing big time recruits.
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5DollarPitcher

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #307 on: November 20, 2019, 03:46:33 PM »
Landing big time recruits.
Who will inevitably regress because they play for a guy who can't coach - Wojo.  Wojo is great at buying himself 2-3-4 more years.

TSmith34

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #308 on: November 20, 2019, 03:47:33 PM »
Who will inevitably regress because they play for a guy who can't coach - Wojo.  Wojo is great at buying himself 2-3-4 more years.
Troll is sad
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5DollarPitcher

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #309 on: November 20, 2019, 04:31:57 PM »
Troll is sad
How could I be a troll by stating what we've seen manifest itself for Wojo's entire tenure.  People that call me a troll for this kind of thing act like Marquette has been some powerhouse, basketball factory for Wojo's tenure. 

We've had 3-4 talented chuckers take us to.... 2nd in the BE?  An NIT Elite Eight??

Yeah I'm a total troll because MU under Wojo has been a wagon, right?

Johnny B

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #310 on: November 20, 2019, 04:36:50 PM »
Hey an elite 8s an elite  8

f/k/a humanlung

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #311 on: November 20, 2019, 08:21:32 PM »
Lon Kruger averaged 23 wins a season there and made the NCAA tournament four of his last five seasons before moving on to Oklahoma.

Man. Completely forgot about Kruger. Thanks for the info.

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #312 on: November 20, 2019, 08:49:27 PM »
Who will inevitably regress because they play for a guy who can't coach - Wojo.  Wojo is great at buying himself 2-3-4 more years.

Yeah, Markus really regressed.  LOL.  Theo regressed.  LOL. 
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Cheeks

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #313 on: November 20, 2019, 08:50:27 PM »
How could I be a troll by stating what we've seen manifest itself for Wojo's entire tenure.  People that call me a troll for this kind of thing act like Marquette has been some powerhouse, basketball factory for Wojo's tenure. 

We've had 3-4 talented chuckers take us to.... 2nd in the BE?  An NIT Elite Eight??

Yeah I'm a total troll because MU under Wojo has been a wagon, right?

The current class being put together is the best class we have had in the Wojo era, so maybe we should see how it plays out.
"The desire to be right all the time, push buttons, get the last word in, etc.  Just not good...   UGH. Embarrassing."

MU82

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #314 on: November 20, 2019, 10:00:24 PM »
The list of coaches who might be interested in coming here under 9-9-9's dream scenario are all either mid-major head coaches or, in Stan's case, a high-major assistant.

Any of them might do well, but they are a far cry from the sure-thing, proven, high-major coaches that some delusional folks think would be beating down the door to coach at Marquette.

I wish established Big 14, ACC, Big 12, SEC and Pac-12 coaches with long histories of NCAA tournament success would want to coach at our alma mater. Unfortunately, that has not been the case. Even Al came from Belmont Abbey, followed by an assistant, followed by another assistant, followed by a mid-major, followed by an assistant, followed by a mid-major, followed by an assistant, followed by an assistant, followed by an assistant.

I am NOT saying the coach from Vermont would be unable to win big at Marquette. I am simply saying we don't know. The only thing we can be pretty sure of is that a bunch of tourney-proven, Power 6 head coaches won't be clamoring to leave their posts to come to MU.
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brewcity77

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #315 on: November 20, 2019, 10:36:31 PM »
I am NOT saying the coach from Vermont would be unable to win big at Marquette. I am simply saying we don't know. The only thing we can be pretty sure of is that a bunch of tourney-proven, Power 6 head coaches won't be clamoring to leave their posts to come to MU.

This is true, though not the reason I wouldn't want to fire Wojo. I've seen enough of a positive trajectory in terms of results and recruiting to believe the direction has promise. If you buy into the crapshoot, what if we had held on to our halftime lead over South Carolina and made their run that year? What if in 2018 we had gotten a ticket to Dayton instead of a high NIT seed and made the Sweet 16 run Syracuse did? What if we had even won one NCAA game last year? The same people calling for Wojo's head would be calling for his canonization.

But the "we don't know" argument could be stretched to virtually any coach. Thad Matta would probably take our job, but while he is young enough to have a long career, is he healthy enough? Ben Howland wanted our job, but his results have been decidedly mediocre at Mississippi State. Both are proven Power 6 coaches. Any coaching change is a roll of the dice. Whether it's a mid-major upstart like Becker or Beard or a high-major winner like Howland or Bennett.

5DollarPitcher

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #316 on: November 20, 2019, 10:58:10 PM »
This is true, though not the reason I wouldn't want to fire Wojo. I've seen enough of a positive trajectory in terms of results and recruiting to believe the direction has promise. If you buy into the crapshoot, what if we had held on to our halftime lead over South Carolina and made their run that year? What if in 2018 we had gotten a ticket to Dayton instead of a high NIT seed and made the Sweet 16 run Syracuse did? What if we had even won one NCAA game last year? The same people calling for Wojo's head would be calling for his canonization.

But the "we don't know" argument could be stretched to virtually any coach. Thad Matta would probably take our job, but while he is young enough to have a long career, is he healthy enough? Ben Howland wanted our job, but his results have been decidedly mediocre at Mississippi State. Both are proven Power 6 coaches. Any coaching change is a roll of the dice. Whether it's a mid-major upstart like Becker or Beard or a high-major winner like Howland or Bennett.
What if???  What if Wojo could coach?  Having a halftime lead against a Final Four team and then getting blown out doesn't warrant a valid "what if we made their run??".  16 and 15 seeds have halftime leads over 1s and 2s fairly often enough to destroy that ridiculous hypothetical.

The fact is none of those things happened - nor was Wojo capable of making those runs.

That. Is. Why. We. Lost.

I don't buy into the crapshoot.  I would say 2/8 Elite Eight and 4/16 Sweet Sixteen can be classified as "Cinderellas" any given year.  That means - the overwhelming majority of the time - the right team makes a run.  The tournament is not quite the "crapshoot" Wojo defenders would like to dismiss it as.

And finally, not moving along from Wojo because we "don't know" what a future coach could be is about as bad of an argument to keep Wojo as I can think of.  By that logic, we should never let go of a coach because we aren't sure what's out there "we could even go 6 years without a tournament win!".  The fact is, Wojo is NOT the guy.  Someone else MIGHT be the guy - therefore, let's find out.

MU82

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #317 on: November 20, 2019, 11:00:42 PM »
This is true, though not the reason I wouldn't want to fire Wojo. I've seen enough of a positive trajectory in terms of results and recruiting to believe the direction has promise. If you buy into the crapshoot, what if we had held on to our halftime lead over South Carolina and made their run that year? What if in 2018 we had gotten a ticket to Dayton instead of a high NIT seed and made the Sweet 16 run Syracuse did? What if we had even won one NCAA game last year? The same people calling for Wojo's head would be calling for his canonization.

But the "we don't know" argument could be stretched to virtually any coach. Thad Matta would probably take our job, but while he is young enough to have a long career, is he healthy enough? Ben Howland wanted our job, but his results have been decidedly mediocre at Mississippi State. Both are proven Power 6 coaches. Any coaching change is a roll of the dice. Whether it's a mid-major upstart like Becker or Beard or a high-major winner like Howland or Bennett.

Good points, brewski.

Though I would add that Howland was not an active coach, and the same would be true about Matta.

Of course, Cuonzo Martin also supposedly wanted the job ... as a short-term stepping stone.
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MU82

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #318 on: November 20, 2019, 11:05:43 PM »
And finally, not moving along from Wojo because we "don't know" what a future coach could be is about as bad of an argument to keep Wojo as I can think of.

Agreed. And the powers that be at Marquette don't make that argument; they think he's doing a good job. I suggest you boycott the program in protest.
"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma – which is living with the results of other people's thinking."

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brewcity77

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #319 on: November 21, 2019, 05:52:49 AM »
The fact is, Wojo is NOT the guy.  Someone else MIGHT be the guy - therefore, let's find out.

I'm not saying he is, but you don't definitively know he isn't, and falsely asserting that as a fact doesn't make it so.

MUMonster03

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #320 on: November 21, 2019, 07:14:46 AM »
What if???  What if Wojo could coach?  Having a halftime lead against a Final Four team and then getting blown out doesn't warrant a valid "what if we made their run??".  16 and 15 seeds have halftime leads over 1s and 2s fairly often enough to destroy that ridiculous hypothetical.

The fact is none of those things happened - nor was Wojo capable of making those runs.

That. Is. Why. We. Lost.

I don't buy into the crapshoot.  I would say 2/8 Elite Eight and 4/16 Sweet Sixteen can be classified as "Cinderellas" any given year.  That means - the overwhelming majority of the time - the right team makes a run.  The tournament is not quite the "crapshoot" Wojo defenders would like to dismiss it as.

And finally, not moving along from Wojo because we "don't know" what a future coach could be is about as bad of an argument to keep Wojo as I can think of.  By that logic, we should never let go of a coach because we aren't sure what's out there "we could even go 6 years without a tournament win!".  The fact is, Wojo is NOT the guy.  Someone else MIGHT be the guy - therefore, let's find out.

1's and 2's losing and/or tied at the half is not as prevalent as you think.

Over the last ten year's only 11 15's or 16's have taken a tie or lead into the half out of 80 games. 4 of them went on to win.

Before 2019, where 3 15/16's had the halftime lead there was only 8 instances over 9 years.

So before 2019 a lead/tie at halftime basically made the game a coin flip.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #321 on: November 21, 2019, 07:21:14 AM »
What if???  What if Wojo could coach?  Having a halftime lead against a Final Four team and then getting blown out doesn't warrant a valid "what if we made their run??".  16 and 15 seeds have halftime leads over 1s and 2s fairly often enough to destroy that ridiculous hypothetical.

The fact is none of those things happened - nor was Wojo capable of making those runs.

That. Is. Why. We. Lost.

I don't buy into the crapshoot.  I would say 2/8 Elite Eight and 4/16 Sweet Sixteen can be classified as "Cinderellas" any given year.  That means - the overwhelming majority of the time - the right team makes a run.  The tournament is not quite the "crapshoot" Wojo defenders would like to dismiss it as.

And finally, not moving along from Wojo because we "don't know" what a future coach could be is about as bad of an argument to keep Wojo as I can think of.  By that logic, we should never let go of a coach because we aren't sure what's out there "we could even go 6 years without a tournament win!".  The fact is, Wojo is NOT the guy.  Someone else MIGHT be the guy - therefore, let's find out.


I don’t think most believe that Wojo is NOT the guy. So don’t speak like it’s some universal truth.
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5DollarPitcher

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #322 on: November 22, 2019, 12:06:23 AM »

I don’t think most believe that Wojo is NOT the guy. So don’t speak like it’s some universal truth.
The man has gone 6 years and a full recruiting cycle with nothingggg to hang our hats on.  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

He's recruited well his whole tenure so let's not pretend like getting that ironed out is the key to the kingdom.  A good coach could have won with what Wojo has brought in.  He has not.

Vander Blue Man Group

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #323 on: November 22, 2019, 12:19:32 AM »
The man has gone 6 years and a full recruiting cycle with nothingggg to hang our hats on.  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

He's recruited well his whole tenure so let's not pretend like getting that ironed out is the key to the kingdom.  A good coach could have won with what Wojo has brought in.  He has not.

To me the truth lies in the middle. Wojo has his strengths and weaknesses, like most coaches. Like many of you I’ve wanted him to bring in a more experienced assistant to help with game planning and adjustments but it seems clear that’s not happening.

This far into his tenure the question becomes is he showing improvement. This year will show a lot but this class he is putting together has bought him more time and rightfully so. Some don’t like that but it’s the best thing for the program.

I think he’s absolutely here for this season and two seasons after unless there’s some massive implosion, either off and/or on the court.

Let’s hope he keeps bringing in high level talent, learns from his mistakes, and becomes a better coach. If he can do that maybe Marquette becomes that program we all want and know it can be.

5DollarPitcher

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #324 on: November 22, 2019, 01:26:02 AM »
To me the truth lies in the middle. Wojo has his strengths and weaknesses, like most coaches. Like many of you I’ve wanted him to bring in a more experienced assistant to help with game planning and adjustments but it seems clear that’s not happening.

This far into his tenure the question becomes is he showing improvement. This year will show a lot but this class he is putting together has bought him more time and rightfully so. Some don’t like that but it’s the best thing for the program.

I think he’s absolutely here for this season and two seasons after unless there’s some massive implosion, either off and/or on the court.

Let’s hope he keeps bringing in high level talent, learns from his mistakes, and becomes a better coach. If he can do that maybe Marquette becomes that program we all want and know it can be.
Ok so here for this season and two seasons after, sure.

Just humor me with a dumb hypothetical here.  What happens if we are in a same/similar boat after that clock runs out (i.e. 0-1 tourney wins, no conference title, no deep tourney run).  We will have let Wojo run this program for damn near a DECADE with no success.  Honestly, at this point, anything other than this hypothetical would have to be classified as a comeback for Wojo.

This is the danger in keeping Wojo around for this long with no success.  Rather than the Wojo tenure being a 4-5 year hiccup on the program after we were caught with our pants down by Buzz, we are letting Wojo's product become the program.