Duke, MSU, Marquette

[CTWarrior]

What game were you watching? Markus only played 7 minutes in the second half and only scored 8/44 points in the second half.

I really disliked the way we looked in the first half against Loyola.  It really felt like at halftime Wojo talked about ball movement and we tried to involve everybody more in the second half.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I really disliked the way we looked in the first half against Loyola.  It really felt like at halftime Wojo talked about ball movement and we tried to involve everybody more in the second half.

So you disliked a game plan that got a 44-15 point lead?

[dgies9156]

OK, I plead guilty to being one of the people who are concerned about the excessive scoring concentration from Markus. Look, I love the guy and what he means to Marquette. But, if we put all our marbles in the Markus bag, we're going to look like we did when Henry Ellenson was here.

To address earlier commentors' concerns, I want Markus scoring but I'd like to see balance. OK, if the defense gives him 40 points a night, take it. But when we get to the Big 10 portion of our schedule -- Wisconsin and Purdue -- I'm truly hoping Sacar, Koby, Greg, Brendan and even Theo step up as significant contributors. That's the only way we will win.

When Coach McGuire led us, our seniors were our stars and our scoring was balanced.  We had strong scoring from our guards and forwards. At times, even our centers. We have to have that to win consistently.

Hero ball is inconsistent with a Top 10 team!

MAKE MARQUETTE FEARED AGAIN!!!!!

[CTWarrior]

So you disliked a game plan that got a 44-15 point lead?

I did not like that only Markus did anything on the offensive end against a team we would have bludgeoned if he took the night off.  Killing Loyola means nothing to me.  What I liked in the first half was our defense. 

I suspect Markus took twice as many shots as he threw passes of any kind in the first half.  He tried to get a shot off every time he touched the ball and only passed if he was stymied.  I understand how good he is and was in the first half, but I just hate that kind of basketball.  I love watching ball movement.  I get it if people don't agree, especially with a guy with talent like Markus.

[Tha Hound]

OK, I plead guilty to being one of the people who are concerned about the excessive scoring concentration from Markus. Look, I love the guy and what he means to Marquette. But, if we put all our marbles in the Markus bag, we're going to look like we did when Henry Ellenson was here.

To address earlier commentors' concerns, I want Markus scoring but I'd like to see balance. OK, if the defense gives him 40 points a night, take it. But when we get to the Big 10 portion of our schedule -- Wisconsin and Purdue -- I'm truly hoping Sacar, Koby, Greg, Brendan and even Theo step up as significant contributors. That's the only way we will win.

When Coach McGuire led us, our seniors were our stars and our scoring was balanced.  We had strong scoring from our guards and forwards. At times, even our centers. We have to have that to win consistently.

Hero ball is inconsistent with a Top 10 team!

MAKE MARQUETTE FEARED AGAIN!!!!!

Hard disagree RE: looking like Ellenson's team. The defense and supporting cast is MUCH stronger than that team. Henry had to be the guy every game because everyone else, on O and D, were so much worse. That's just not the case with this team.

[bilsu]

I want Markus to take every good open shot he has. I do not want Markus to force up bad shots. I can say that about every player on our team.

[Coleman]

I had the pleasure of sitting in the nosebleed seats at the MSU Duke elite eight game last spring.
      Duke fans around me were mad at K for not working harder to get the ball to Zion.
    Spartan fans despaired when Cassius was out of the game and implored Izzo to put the ball in his hands and let him work.
   A significant portion of MU fans on this board want the ball taken out of Markus's hands as much as plausible.  A cancer.  Should have adapted his game to the departed.

Why do fans of other schools want the ball in the hands of their best players whereas MU fans disparage their all time leading scorer, model citizen, reigning BEPOY, and preseason first team all American?

Do Seton Hall fans want Powell to have the ball in his hands less?

Markus is the best MU player since Wade, and should always be option 1A and 1B. Same with last year. People were pissed because he was turning himself into (or Wojo was turning him into, we'll never really know) option 2 and 3 as well when there were other guys with a lot of talent who should contribute, especially when Markus was having an off night.

I like Markus a lot and there is not another guy in college basketball that I'd rather have in my corner for one shot with a game on the line. But some of the criticism of him was/is legitimate.

If he feeling it and shooting 7/10 from 3PT I have no problem with him putting up 40 or 50 points. Run the hot hand all night. He is your best weapon, use it. It is the off nights where he is cold and everything continued to run entirely through him that was frustrating.  If you recall the Wade years, we made the Final Four because of contributions from Diener, Novak, Jackson and Merritt. Wade was far and away the best player but we had many, many options including 2 other NBA players besides Wade.

There's always shades of grey. Markus is not a villain but he is not above any criticism.

[BM1090]

What game were you watching? Markus only played 7 minutes in the second half and only scored 8/44 points in the second half.

Right. I think Markus took 3 or 4 total shots in the 2nd half.

[Its DJOver]

Scoring 34 points on 24 shots (both more than 3x anyone else on the team) and your fans are praising you.  What a weird concept.  Don't they know that they can't be a top 10 team with a high volume scorer?

https://northcarolina.forums.rivals.com/threads/the-cole-anthony-show.72925/

[dgies9156]

Hard disagree RE: looking like Ellenson's team. The defense and supporting cast is MUCH stronger than that team. Henry had to be the guy every game because everyone else, on O and D, were so much worse. That's just not the case with this team.

Prove it.

Distribute the ball. Get distributed scoring.

On defense I agree.

[wadesworld]

Senior Markus is a much better college player than freshman Henry was.

[Skatastrophy]

I want Markus to take every good open shot he has. I do not want Markus to force up bad shots. I can say that about every player on our team.

+1

[skianth16]

This whole thread is really pretty simple - when teams are winning, people love their star players and coaches and heap praise on them. But when teams are losing, the most visible members of the team (the stars and the coaches) take more flak than others.

So when comparing Duke and MSU to last year's MU team, of course there are more people on the MU side expressing frustration with the star player and how the coach is using him. When fans, myself included, see a strategy continue to fail, they want to see something different. That's all it is.

It doesn't mean they don't appreciate Markus or that they think he's a bad player (or person). It's just frustration. There's nothing more to read more into it than just fans being passionate but disappointed.

[injuryBug]

I had the pleasure of sitting in the nosebleed seats at the MSU Duke elite eight game last spring.
      Duke fans around me were mad at K for not working harder to get the ball to Zion.
    Spartan fans despaired when Cassius was out of the game and implored Izzo to put the ball in his hands and let him work.
   A significant portion of MU fans on this board want the ball taken out of Markus's hands as much as plausible.  A cancer.  Should have adapted his game to the departed.

Why do fans of other schools want the ball in the hands of their best players whereas MU fans disparage their all time leading scorer, model citizen, reigning BEPOY, and preseason first team all American?

Do Seton Hall fans want Powell to have the ball in his hands less?

I started the who else can score thread not to get the ball out of his hands but more as a question as to when Howard goes cold or is taken out of the game by the other team who else will step up on this team and make the plays to win games.  I am all for 20 shots per night by Howard that gives MU a great chance to win each night. 

[Lennys Tap]

I had the pleasure of sitting in the nosebleed seats at the MSU Duke elite eight game last spring.
      Duke fans around me were mad at K for not working harder to get the ball to Zion.
    Spartan fans despaired when Cassius was out of the game and implored Izzo to put the ball in his hands and let him work.
   A significant portion of MU fans on this board want the ball taken out of Markus's hands as much as plausible.  A cancer.  Should have adapted his game to the departed.

Why do fans of other schools want the ball in the hands of their best players whereas MU fans disparage their all time leading scorer, model citizen, reigning BEPOY, and preseason first team all American?

Do Seton Hall fans want Powell to have the ball in his hands less?

This post is a gross misrepresentation of opinions expressed on Scoop  A significant portion want "the ball out of his hands as much as plausible"? Who, and what does that even mean? They think he's a "cancer"? One person's opinion, IIRC. Should have "adapted his game to the departed"? Said nobody.

Markus is an elite scorer who can literally carry a team when he's hitting on all cylinders. But, contrary to your view, he's not infallible. So some fans think our team would have been better off if Markus had a usage % of 26.8 (Cassius Winston and Zion Williamson last year) or 30.9 (Myles Powell last year) instead of his off the charts 37.4%. That doesn't make them haters.

[The Sultan]

This post is a gross misrepresentation of opinions expressed on Scoop  A significant portion want "the ball out of his hands as much as plausible"? Who, and what does that even mean? They think he's a "cancer"? One person's opinion, IIRC. Should have "adapted his game to the departed"? Said nobody.

Markus is an elite scorer who can literally carry a team when he's hitting on all cylinders. But, contrary to your view, he's not infallible. So some fans think our team would have been better off if Markus had a usage % of 26.8 (Cassius Winston and Zion Williamson last year) or 30.9 (Myles Powell last year) instead of his off the charts 37.4%. That doesn't make them haters.

Lol. Condemns post for exaggerating. Also exaggerates by claiming author said Markus was "infallible."

Irony is just lost on some.

[tower912]

Irony not lost.   But pleased by the discussion

[Lennys Tap]

Lol. Condemns post for exaggerating. Also exaggerates by claiming author said Markus was "infallible."

Irony is just lost on some.

LOL. "Condemns" is a bit of an exaggeration itself. Irony lost on the one claiming irony lost on some. That's some really sweet irony.

IMO, Tower post wasn't an exaggeration but a misstatement of facts in evidence. My statement on Markus's infallibility was obvious hyperbole, a small joke to make a point. Sorry it went over your head.

But thanks for your 2 cents - really added to the conversation.

Bwaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaha!

[Its DJOver]

I don't recall anyone ever saying that Markus is "infallible".  In the Loyola game thread though I did see: "This is abysmal", "Terrible shooting", "We are absolutely going to suck this year", and "were Dayton bound", all by different posters.  This was a game where we never trailed, and our lead was never less than 20 after the first 10 minutes, and people were still complaining.  Believe it or not, most teams don't play their best basketball in their opener.  The number of TOs even considering the sample size is concerning, but when someone scores 38 points in 26 minutes, and we shoot above 60% from three as a team, I can certainly understand the frustration of some posters that others are already complaining.

[Lennys Tap]

I don't recall anyone ever saying that Markus is "infallible".  In the Loyola game thread though I did see: "This is abysmal", "Terrible shooting", "We are absolutely going to suck this year", and "were Dayton bound", all by different posters.  This was a game where we never trailed, and our lead was never less than 20 after the first 10 minutes, and people were still complaining.  Believe it or not, most teams don't play their best basketball in their opener.  The number of TOs even considering the sample size is concerning, but when someone scores 38 points in 26 minutes, and we shoot above 60% from three as a team, I can certainly understand the frustration of some posters that others are already complaining.

In game threads are generally (even when we play really well) filled with frustrated rants. I avoid them - maybe you should too.

[Its DJOver]

In game threads are generally (even when we play really well) filled with frustrated rants. I avoid them - maybe you should too.

I'm usually too invested in the game to keep up with them, but I go back afterwards and give them a read.

Just providing evidence to support the idea that no amount of success will cause the complaining to stop. 

[real chili 83]

Markus in the Loyola game was intentional. Period.

BTW, Jayce working super hard to be ready for Purdue game.  Hope it happens for him.

[Lennys Tap]

I'm usually too invested in the game to keep up with them, but I go back afterwards and give them a read.

Just providing evidence to support the idea that no amount of success will cause the complaining to stop.

OK, but I think there's a big difference between in game frustrations and more dispassionate, after the fact honest conversation about our team's strengths and weaknesses.

[tower912]

OK, but I think there's a big difference between in game frustrations and more dispassionate, after the fact honest conversation about our team's strengths and weaknesses.

Lenny, I don't think we are all that far apart.   I don't think either Wojo or Markus are infallible.    And perhaps there are vocal minorities within the Spartan and Duke fanbases that want Cassius to share the ball more and thought Zion was overrated.   I don't spend time on their boards, so it is entirely possible this is actually a universal problem (not appreciating stars) and not just a problem of a small subset on scoop.   

[Dr. Blackheart]

Let's test the Scorecasting hypothesis on Markus:

Q: What's his average usage and ORat lines in games MU wins and loses?
A: His average usage rate in wins is 29.1 and 33.3 in losses. His average ORat in wins is 119.7 versus 100.7 in losses.

Q: What's the difference in the stats in usage games of 31 or higher versus lower usage rate games (despite wins or losses)?
A: In higher usage rate games, his average usage is 39.1 and his ORat is 108.8. MU won 52.2% of those games. In the <31 usage rate games, his average usage was 23 and his ORat was 116.0. MU won 72.5% of those games.

Q: Yes, but what does it look like by the level of competition?
A:  In Pomeroy A games, his usage is 32.1 and ORat is 111.1. MU won 42.1% of those games. In B games, his usage is 30.8 and his ORat is 107.7. MU has won 52.2% of those games. In less competitive games, his usage is 29.0 and his ORat is 117.4.  MU has won 91.7% of those games.

Q: What do the numbers look like after "The Letter" game versus Nova?
A: His usage was 41.1 and his ORat was 94.6. MU won 14% of those games.

Q: What are the differences in the average number of assists and turnovers by types of games?
A: Assists are the same by higher and lower usage games (3.1). Turnovers are almost double in higher usage games (3.9 vs. 2.0) as might be expected. Post "The Letter", assists were up to 3.7 and turnovers were 4.7.

Q: What's the optimal usage point where his ORat peaks, on average?
A: About 31, again on average, as, with a great player like Markus, he has a lot of outlier games like Loyola and Buffalo. These are special.

I gave my interpretation earlier in the thread. The rest of you, have at it. He is an AA with incredible talent and heart. That also attracts defenses who are sending three defenders to spy on him. "The Howard Rules".