Crowder & Hayward to HOF

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Thanks for the kind words, Shooter. Don't mean to be ornery, but I think the "Crowder Rule" (which is not a Juco ban) is an insult to Jae and a mistake for the program. Glad Jae doesn't take it personally - maybe he doesn't even know it exists. If he does, as I said, he's a better man than I am.

I don't know about you personally, but many of our alumni would "no longer be welcome" if they applied today. Maybe most aren't aware but I'd also like to believe that most of them understand that admissions standards change as time goes on and that fact doesn't bother them.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I don't know about you personally, but many of our alumni would "no longer be welcome" if they applied today. Maybe most aren't aware but I'd also like to believe that most of them understand that admissions standards change as time goes on and that fact doesn't bother them.

This is pretty much a false narrative. Taking the ACT or SAT entrance exams numerous times wasn’t a thing. Testing prep consisted of a PSAT sophomore year so high school counselors could direct you to the right school for your level. Out of 8th grade, my high school tested me and placed me into the appropriate college prep level. Your high school rank versus super weighted GPA was in place.  AP courses barely existed (English and Math...maybe history and science). Marquette was slightly better than Loyola and DePaul, but worse than Notre Dame, Nova and Georgetown. Same as today. But, MU was a commuter school well into the 80s versus a resident school today...that much has changed as MU was more hard scrabble.

Dentistry, Engineering, Nursing and Law were strong just like today.  Business had a higher reputation back then, but PT didn’t exist. Financial aid was not as available. UW-Milwaukee was weak but became vastly improved for the commuters which caused MU to shift gradually to the Chicago Catholic schools and out East.  The FFP students were more legacy type students who greatly transitioned to successful MU careers and beyond. Because MU was a commuter school, many more JUCOs were accepted both academically and athletically (versus none in the athletics program today and at most 0.4% today by the link Chick shared).

In the end, MU is roughly at the same place over the decades as it was back then, with the changes I noted. We just think we are more elite which is the false narrative.  Btw, Lenny and I would have been safely in even by today’s “standards”.

Just because Scoopers downplay their academics and pump up their drinking and dating skills, this doesn’t mean these are true narratives in today’s world. MU grads have been and are very successful. Marquette is who we thought they were and are:  Pretty much at the same place give or take but Milwaukee is a much nicer city. Oh, and Lenny owned the CBOT.

The elitism crept in with the Pilarz regime...and has lingered although not as overtly.  But the odor still stinks.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Where’s the dude that made those Crowder Warriors shirts? Those were nice.

[MU82]

That was my senior year and there were about 60 of us watching it at a bar in Cancun. The highest of highs and the lowest of lows all within an hour

I was in Arizona for spring training ... and was watching with an effen Washington alum. The ending of that game was brutal. Thankfully, my buddy wasn't a jerk about it -- actually almost felt sorry for me. But he was giddy for himself and his team, and deservedly so.

I've seen interviews of Jimmy in which he said that ending still haunted him.

[wildbill sb]

Where’s the dude that made those Crowder Warriors shirts? Those were nice.

As I remember it, the designer lived in San Diego, and the shirts were printed in Chula Vista. Not sure if the print shop would still have the screens, but will try to find out.

[brewcity77]

I think something lost amidst the "Crowder rule" is that right around the time Jae came was when the NCAA was cracking down on APR scores. UConn got a postseason ban for their APR. I think revising JUCO restrictions to make sure they would be on track to graduate was likely more about making sure the program didn't suffer tangible consequences.

At the same time, it appeared to the outside that it was a JUCO ban, and as that JUCO identity was already debated amongst alumni and fans, it looked like a shot at those players.

I really think it was just about insuring sustained NCAA eligibility and the existing debate that had already begun in the fanbase made it look more divisive than it was. Get kids that can graduate to stay tournament eligible.

[GooooMarquette]

This is pretty much a false narrative.

Affirmative.

My GPA and resume from the late 70s (no AP courses, took ACT once with no prep, no volunteer work) likely wouldn't have gotten me in today. But if I was in HS today, I would be taking AP courses (and taking my grades more seriously); I would be doing volunteer work to puff up my resume; I would take an ACT prep course and likely take it at least twice. And in all likelihood, I would create a resume that would get me into MU.

Our resumes didn't look as good back in the 70s because we knew they didn't need to look as good....

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Affirmative.

My GPA and resume from the late 70s (no AP courses, took ACT once with no prep, no volunteer work) likely wouldn't have gotten me in today. But if I was in HS today, I would be taking AP courses (and taking my grades more seriously); I would be doing volunteer work to puff up my resume; I would take an ACT prep course and likely take it at least twice. And in all likelihood, I would create a resume that would get me into MU.

Our resumes didn't look as good back in the 70s because we knew they didn't need to look as good....

I agree—It’s all relative and MU is getting a similar slice of America’s high school students as it always has.  Maybe it’s changed around the margins but not dramatically.

[Lennys Tap]

I think something lost amidst the "Crowder rule" is that right around the time Jae came was when the NCAA was cracking down on APR scores. UConn got a postseason ban for their APR. I think revising JUCO restrictions to make sure they would be on track to graduate was likely more about making sure the program didn't suffer tangible consequences.

At the same time, it appeared to the outside that it was a JUCO ban, and as that JUCO identity was already debated amongst alumni and fans, it looked like a shot at those players.

I really think it was just about insuring sustained NCAA eligibility and the existing debate that had already begun in the fanbase made it look more divisive than it was. Get kids that can graduate to stay tournament eligible.

Marquette APR score since its inception:

Crean: 2004-05    918
           2005-06    927
           2006 -07   954
           2007-08    970

average 942.5


Buzz:  2008-09    975
          2009-10    980
          2010-11    970
          2011-12    960
          2012-13    959
          2013-14    949

average 965.3


Wojo:  2014-15   962
          2015-16   966
          2016-17   950
          2017-18   955

average 958.25   

[Lennys Tap]

I don't know about you personally, but many of our alumni would "no longer be welcome" if they applied today. Maybe most aren't aware but I'd also like to believe that most of them understand that admissions standards change as time goes on and that fact doesn't bother them.

I applied to 4 schools - Marquette, Holy Cross, Georgetown and Notre Dame (Jesuit HS). Eliminated HC and ND (all boys, just like HS) Picked MU over GT because of a girlfriend in Chicago. Was broken up with her before the leaves fell but never regretted my decision.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

This is pretty much a false narrative. Taking the ACT or SAT entrance exams numerous times wasn’t a thing. Testing prep consisted of a PSAT sophomore year so high school counselors could direct you to the right school for your level. Out of 8th grade, my high school tested me and placed me into the appropriate college prep level. Your high school rank versus super weighted GPA was in place.  AP courses barely existed (English and Math...maybe history and science). Marquette was slightly better than Loyola and DePaul, but worse than Notre Dame, Nova and Georgetown. Same as today. But, MU was a commuter school well into the 80s versus a resident school today...that much has changed as MU was more hard scrabble.

So what I'm reading hear is that standards have changed over time and students now have to do different things in order to get admittance. That's the point that I was making. Marquette may not have gotten more elite, but nationwide the requirements for getting into college have gone up.

[GooooMarquette]

So what I'm reading hear is that standards have changed over time and students now have to do different things in order to get admittance. That's the point that I was making. Marquette may not have gotten more elite, but nationwide the requirements for getting into college have gone up.

But grades have inflated over time as well. C used to be defined as "average." Now, you are well into the bottom portion of the class if you are awarded a C. I couldn't find stats going back before 1990, but the US Department of Education has shown that the "average" GPA of high school students increased steadily from 1990-2009.

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2011/04/19/average-high-school-gpas-increased-since-1990

[Cheeks]

I don't know about you personally, but many of our alumni would "no longer be welcome" if they applied today. Maybe most aren't aware but I'd also like to believe that most of them understand that admissions standards change as time goes on and that fact doesn't bother them.

 Agree


I would wager 80% of the UCLA, UCSD, UC Irvine, and UCSB alum at work could not get in today, but did 25 years ago.  They all know it, they don’t care.  Things change.  They got in when they did, those schools are all world class now and they are proud to have been a part of it at one time, but they realize that schools change positions. Marquette is no different.

[brewcity77]

Marquette APR score since its inception:

And? None of that indicates the administration didn't have long term concerns about the negative implications of athletes not being able to graduate.

[Cheeks]

Marquette APR score since its inception:

Crean: 2004-05    918
           2005-06    927
           2006 -07   954
           2007-08    970

average 942.5


Buzz:  2008-09    975
          2009-10    980
          2010-11    970
          2011-12    960
          2012-13    959
          2013-14    949

average 965.3


Wojo:  2014-15   962
          2015-16   966
          2016-17   950
          2017-18   955

average 958.25   

Notice any trending with Buzz’s scores.........

[wadesworld]

Agree


I would wager 80% of the UCLA, UCSD, UC Irvine, and UCSB alum at work could not get in today, but did 25 years ago.  They all know it, they don’t care.  Things change.  They got in when they did, those schools are all world class now and they are proud to have been a part of it at one time, but they realize that schools change positions. Marquette is no different.

I hope those schools aren’t calling those coworkers asking them for money. Exploiting the success of its alumni for the gain of the school even though those types of students would no longer be welcome at the school? What a sham.

[tower912]

Notice any trending with Buzz’s scores.........

I notice that that Crean has the lowest two seasons and the lowest average.   

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I think something lost amidst the "Crowder rule" is that right around the time Jae came was when the NCAA was cracking down on APR scores. UConn got a postseason ban for their APR. I think revising JUCO restrictions to make sure they would be on track to graduate was likely more about making sure the program didn't suffer tangible consequences.

At the same time, it appeared to the outside that it was a JUCO ban, and as that JUCO identity was already debated amongst alumni and fans, it looked like a shot at those players.

I really think it was just about insuring sustained NCAA eligibility and the existing debate that had already begun in the fanbase made it look more divisive than it was. Get kids that can graduate to stay tournament eligible.

And part of the reason for the change in policy is that it doesn't do the student athlete much good to come to campus with no chance of graduating before their grant in aid runs out.  It's a good thing that Jae has been able to make a living at basketball and isn't living a Vander-like existance.

And yeah Marquette would cover a degree completion, but that's not always an easy thing for someone to do.

And finally, about the "exploitation" narrative.  Who exploited Jae more?  The previous administration who brought him to campus with no chance of graduating since he was a good basketball player?  Or the current administration for appreciating what he brought to MU?  (I'm being hyperbolic for emphasis here.)

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

This is pretty much a false narrative. Taking the ACT or SAT entrance exams numerous times wasn’t a thing. Testing prep consisted of a PSAT sophomore year so high school counselors could direct you to the right school for your level. Out of 8th grade, my high school tested me and placed me into the appropriate college prep level. Your high school rank versus super weighted GPA was in place.  AP courses barely existed (English and Math...maybe history and science). Marquette was slightly better than Loyola and DePaul, but worse than Notre Dame, Nova and Georgetown. Same as today. But, MU was a commuter school well into the 80s versus a resident school today...that much has changed as MU was more hard scrabble.

Dentistry, Engineering, Nursing and Law were strong just like today.  Business had a higher reputation back then, but PT didn’t exist. Financial aid was not as available. UW-Milwaukee was weak but became vastly improved for the commuters which caused MU to shift gradually to the Chicago Catholic schools and out East.  The FFP students were more legacy type students who greatly transitioned to successful MU careers and beyond. Because MU was a commuter school, many more JUCOs were accepted both academically and athletically (versus none in the athletics program today and at most 0.4% today by the link Chick shared).

In the end, MU is roughly at the same place over the decades as it was back then, with the changes I noted. We just think we are more elite which is the false narrative.  Btw, Lenny and I would have been safely in even by today’s “standards”.

Just because Scoopers downplay their academics and pump up their drinking and dating skills, this doesn’t mean these are true narratives in today’s world. MU grads have been and are very successful. Marquette is who we thought they were and are:  Pretty much at the same place give or take but Milwaukee is a much nicer city. Oh, and Lenny owned the CBOT.

The elitism crept in with the Pilarz regime...and has lingered although not as overtly.  But the odor still stinks.

It's not a false narrative.  Marquette has been changing as an institution for 30 years.  Long before Pilarz was President.  It's harder for the average student to get into Marquette than it used to be.

[Cheeks]

I hope those schools aren’t calling those coworkers asking them for money. Exploiting the success of its alumni for the gain of the school even though those types of students would no longer be welcome at the school? What a sham.

Ha ha, yup

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Lenny,

You are great poster with a ton of insight into MU basketball, especially the AL era.  But you and several other 70s poster are extremely negative and have an axe to grind.  There are elements to your posts that are correct (jucos should be allowed at MU) but my God this is a good thing.  There is no negative too it.  You are just being ornery and your 70s bunch is as well. 

This really is it.  The anti-Wojo people are projecting THAT issue onto this announcement.  And they really shouldn't be related at all.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

And finally, about the "exploitation" narrative.  Who exploited Jae more?  The previous administration who brought him to campus with no chance of graduating since he was a good basketball player?  Or the current administration for appreciating what he brought to MU?  (I'm being hyperbolic for emphasis here.)

IMO neither.  I think caring about this is about as important as caring about whether an NBA agent has a college degree. 

[Cheeks]

I notice that that Crean has the lowest two seasons and the lowest average.

Yup, and put a plan together that greatly improved it, proper trajectory, that continued into into Buzz’s first year, and then it went only in one direction from there. 

Someone can correct me on this, but I believe the years stated are not for the students entering that year, but rather graduating that year.  If that is correct, then the first few years of a new coach is also benefitting or hurting based on the previous coach’s progress / culture.  Again, not sure if accurate, Billy or someone that knows this stuff can opine.

[Cheeks]

But grades have inflated over time as well. C used to be defined as "average." Now, you are well into the bottom portion of the class if you are awarded a C. I couldn't find stats going back before 1990, but the US Department of Education has shown that the "average" GPA of high school students increased steadily from 1990-2009.

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2011/04/19/average-high-school-gpas-increased-since-1990

All true, but have courses and loads also become more difficult?  I am amazed at what is required of high school students now.  They have way more tools then I did, but nevertheless the demands of productivity from them is high

[Cheeks]

This really is it.  The anti-Wojo people are projecting THAT issue onto this announcement.  And they really shouldn't be related at all.

Yup yup