NFL Thread 2019-2020

[The Sultan]

Very favorable schedule doesn't hurt either

This is true.  I kinda think they could be in for a not-quite-Bears-like like disappointment next year since the schedule is going to be tougher.

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

I think the Packers' improvement this year is entirely due to the defense.  They ranked ninth this year after the past three ranking somewhere in the 20s.  I think a lot of this has to do with improved personnel (the Smiths and Amos), but also has to do with Pettine being better than Capers.

McCarthy was way too loyal to his assistants, and Thompson was way too stingy with the checkbook when his drafting strategy wasn't working.

One only has to look at the easy schedule that Green Bay played this year.  Staffordless Lions, Regressing Bears, Not having to face Mahomes on the road, etc.  Not to mention a pretty healthy year.  Packers had a lucky horseshoe in their back pocket.  Of course, they were due for that since dealing with Rodgers' injuries.  Next year's schedule is a gauntlet and they'll be lucky to get a playoff spot.

[The Sultan]

I don't know the numbers and have not seen this reported but has LeFleur's team been significantly healthier than McCarthy's GB teams? Every season McCarthy's teams seemed to have devastating injury bugs yet to me this year's team seems to not have lost so many players due to injury. Is 13-3 a reflection of more players being available on gamedays?

Ironically, this just came out.  Very healthy year.

https://www.espn.com/blog/green-bay-packers/post/_/id/48422/packers-from-injury-prone-to-injury-free-with-more-than-a-knock-on-wood

[Uncle Rico]

Weird that Eric Bieniemy can't get a head job. 

[GB Warrior]

Weird that Eric Bieniemy can't get a head job.

I'm sure its in no way related to the fact that he's an OC in an offense that doesn't call the plays under Reid, and the last guy to do that was Matt Nagy.

In related news, Matt Rhule got PAID.

[Pakuni]

Weird that Eric Bieniemy can't get a head job.

Is it, though?
He's only been a coordinator for two years, and Reid calls the plays in KC.
He may be a great coach - I don't know - but it's not surprising given his resume that he's hasn't landed a head coaching gig yet. I think he'll get his chance eventually (maybe even this year, with the Giants seemingly interested and running out of options), but it's not that weird if he isn't.

[Uncle Rico]

Is it, though?
He's only been a coordinator for two years, and Reid calls the plays in KC.
He may be a great coach - I don't know - but it's not surprising given his resume that he's hasn't landed a head coaching gig yet. I think he'll get his chance eventually (maybe even this year, with the Giants seemingly interested and running out of options), but it's not that weird if he isn't.

Previous two coordinators were Doug Pederson and Matt Nagy.  Bieniemy has more experience as a coach than those two did before they got hired.

[Pakuni]

Previous two coordinators were Doug Pederson and Matt Nagy.  Bieniemy has more experience as a coach than those two did before they got hired.

Pederson was a coordinator for three seasons to Bienemy's two and called plays.
Nagy had the same years as coordinator, but called plays.

[Pakuni]

And just like that, the Giants gig is no longer open.
They're hiring Patriots WR coach Joe Judge, per Schefter.

Another Patriots assistant. Teams just can't help themselves, despite the track record (though Flores showed some promise this year).
Judge reportedly is interviewing Jason Garrett to be his OC.

[mu03eng]

One only has to look at the easy schedule that Green Bay played this year.  Staffordless Lions, Regressing Bears, Not having to face Mahomes on the road, etc.  Not to mention a pretty healthy year.  Packers had a lucky horseshoe in their back pocket.  Of course, they were due for that since dealing with Rodgers' injuries.  Next year's schedule is a gauntlet and they'll be lucky to get a playoff spot.

Man, you are a barrel of sunshine on all topics, huh?

[mu03eng]

I will say, I think the Rooney Rule has, predictably, been a total failure. If the goal is to increase representation of minorities within the coaching ranks, especially HC it simply hasn't delivered.

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

Man, you are a barrel of sunshine on all topics, huh?

Well, it's true.  Let's be honest, this is one of the worst 13-3 teams ever in the playoffs.  This team rarely played 4 quarters of football the whole season.  That being said, if they can play all 4 quarters then they should make it to the NFC championship.  Can they beat the 49ers?  So far I'd say no, but who knows.  Maybe the Vikings will surprise us again.  As long as Packers can get to the QB, they have a chance.

[Uncle Rico]

I will say, I think the Rooney Rule has, predictably, been a total failure. If the goal is to increase representation of minorities within the coaching ranks, especially HC it simply hasn't delivered.

It's been a failure for the most part.  That's why I bring up Bieniemy.  The idea he can't be a head coach because he isn't calling plays is absurd, imo.  Matt Lafeur's offense in Tennessee wasn't anything to write home about and he's been fine as a head coach. 

Look at Joe Judge's resume.  Andy Reid assistants versus Belichick assistants.  We don't sit through interviews and maybe Bieniemy is a terrible interview but the optics look terrible

[Jockey]

Weird that Eric Bieniemy can't get a head job.

I really can't pinpoint any single reason why not

[Jockey]

Pederson was a coordinator for three seasons to Bienemy's two and called plays.
Nagy had the same years as coordinator, but called plays.

For how many games? Very few.

[Jockey]

I will say, I think the Rooney Rule has, predictably, been a total failure. If the goal is to increase representation of minorities within the coaching ranks, especially HC it simply hasn't delivered.

I think it has failed mainly for two reasons.

1. Lack of minority ownership.

2. Lack of minority GMs.


As Frank Robinson said when asked about the lack of black managers, "General managers prefer to hire people they feel comfortable having breakfast with."

[MU82]

I will say, I think the Rooney Rule has, predictably, been a total failure. If the goal is to increase representation of minorities within the coaching ranks, especially HC it simply hasn't delivered.

I don't think it has been perfect because I don't know how you make such a thing perfect, mu03, but it hasn't been a "total failure."

Before the rule, minority candidates were very few and far between. They weren't even being interviewed. They were totally ignored -- in other words, minorities weren't even candidates for NFL head-coaching jobs. They were having trouble landing coordinator gigs.

The interview process helps them gain exposure. They might have to go through it twice or three times as often as a white candidate does to get a serious offer -- which sucks -- but at least their names are getting out there. They are gaining experience being interviewed so they can become better interviewees next time. They are landing a lot of coordinator gigs.

And even though progress has been slow, look at how many black and/or Latino coaches there have been the last few years compared to 20 years ago and more. I think there were 8 in the 2018 season -- that's a quarter of the league. There was nothing even remotely close to that in 1998.

It is disappointing that after those 8 HC of a couple years ago, there were only half as many this season, and there might be fewer next year.

I'm not sure what else can be done because obviously you don't want to mandate that teams hire certain coaches just because of their race.

So as imperfect as it is, I think it has helped with slow, incremental change over time.

As for whether or not a head coach has play-calling experience, young play-callers are the flavor of the month and the NFL is famously a league of imitators. But personally, I don't think that's a great reason to hire a guy.

If I'm an owner, I want a head coach who is very knowledgeable about every facet of NFL play -- a guy who is, first and foremost, an organizer, ego-manager, deligator and overseer. I want him to hire a great, play-calling offensive coordinator. (And obviously, if my head coach comes from the defensive side, he will be hiring a play-calling offensive coordinator.)

Bill Belicheck doesn't call offensive plays; he's done OK for himself, no? Pete Carroll and John Harbaugh don't call plays. Mike Tomlin doesn't call plays. Most head coaches who have come from defensive backgrounds don't even call defensive signals, let alone offensive plays. I respect Andy Reid a ton ... but how many Super Bowls has he won again? How many has he even been in?

So I hope that's not the reason Bienemy can't get a head-coaching gig, though it certainly might be given the flavor-of-the-month thing.

Of course, I hope his race is not the reason, either.

[Pakuni]

I don't think it has been perfect because I don't know how you make such a thing perfect, mu03, but it hasn't been a "total failure."

Before the rule, minority candidates were very few and far between. They weren't even being interviewed. They were totally ignored -- in other words, minorities weren't even candidates for NFL head-coaching jobs. They were having trouble landing coordinator gigs.

The interview process helps them gain exposure. They might have to go through it twice or three times as often as a white candidate does to get a serious offer -- which sucks -- but at least their names are getting out there. They are gaining experience being interviewed so they can become better interviewees next time. They are landing a lot of coordinator gigs.

And even though progress has been slow, look at how many black and/or Latino coaches there have been the last few years compared to 20 years ago and more. I think there were 8 in the 2018 season -- that's a quarter of the league. There was nothing even remotely close to that in 1998.

It is disappointing that after those 8 HC of a couple years ago, there were only half as many this season, and there might be fewer next year.

I'm not sure what else can be done because obviously you don't want to mandate that teams hire certain coaches just because of their race.

So as imperfect as it is, I think it has helped with slow, incremental change over time.

As for whether or not a head coach has play-calling experience, young play-callers are the flavor of the month and the NFL is famously a league of imitators. But personally, I don't think that's a great reason to hire a guy.

If I'm an owner, I want a head coach who is very knowledgeable about every facet of NFL play -- a guy who is, first and foremost, an organizer, ego-manager, deligator and overseer. I want him to hire a great, play-calling offensive coordinator. (And obviously, if my head coach comes from the defensive side, he will be hiring a play-calling offensive coordinator.)

Bill Belicheck doesn't call offensive plays; he's done OK for himself, no? Pete Carroll and John Harbaugh don't call plays. Mike Tomlin doesn't call plays. Most head coaches who have come from defensive backgrounds don't even call defensive signals, let alone offensive plays. I respect Andy Reid a ton ... but how many Super Bowls has he won again? How many has he even been in?

So I hope that's not the reason Bienemy can't get a head-coaching gig, though it certainly might be given the flavor-of-the-month thing.

Of course, I hope his race is not the reason, either.

Guess it depends how one views the mission of the Rooney Rule. If it's simply to get minority candidates interviews and exposure, then it's been a success. It it's goal is to diversify the ranks of upper-echelon NFL coaching gigs (i.e. head coaches and coordinators), it's been a bust.
I may be mistaken, but Mike Tomlin is the only coach I'm aware of who landed a HC gig thanks to the rule. Steelers were all set to hire Russ Grimm until Tomlin reportedly won them over in his interviews.

As for Belichick and Carroll not calling offensive plays ... huh? Not sure why that's relevant.
But if they had come up as defensive coordinators who didn't actually handle defensive playcalling during  games, that would be seen as a knock against them, right?
The issue isn't whether calling offensive plays is a requisite, it's whether being a coordinator who doesn't call plays is viewed as a negative during head coaching searches. I think it is.

[Uncle Rico]

Guess it depends how one views the mission of the Rooney Rule. If it's simply to get minority candidates interviews and exposure, then it's been a success. It it's goal is to diversify the ranks of upper-echelon NFL coaching gigs (i.e. head coaches and coordinators), it's been a bust.
I may be mistaken, but Mike Tomlin is the only coach I'm aware of who landed a HC gig thanks to the rule. Steelers were all set to hire Russ Grimm until Tomlin reportedly won them over in his interviews.

As for Belichick and Carroll not calling offensive plays ... huh? Not sure why that's relevant.
But if they had come up as defensive coordinators who didn't actually handle defensive playcalling during  games, that would be seen as a knock against them, right?
The issue isn't whether calling offensive plays is a requisite, it's whether being a coordinator who doesn't call plays is viewed as a negative during head coaching searches. I think it is.

I guess play calling matters since Pat Shurmur has been hired twice

[MU82]

Guess it depends how one views the mission of the Rooney Rule. If it's simply to get minority candidates interviews and exposure, then it's been a success. It it's goal is to diversify the ranks of upper-echelon NFL coaching gigs (i.e. head coaches and coordinators), it's been a bust.
I may be mistaken, but Mike Tomlin is the only coach I'm aware of who landed a HC gig thanks to the rule. Steelers were all set to hire Russ Grimm until Tomlin reportedly won them over in his interviews.

As for Belichick and Carroll not calling offensive plays ... huh? Not sure why that's relevant.
But if they had come up as defensive coordinators who didn't actually handle defensive playcalling during  games, that would be seen as a knock against them, right?
The issue isn't whether calling offensive plays is a requisite, it's whether being a coordinator who doesn't call plays is viewed as a negative during head coaching searches. I think it is.

Well, with Tomlin, that's one more than without the rule.

As for play-calling ... I understand what you're saying, and you very well could be right about that being why non-play-callers don't get gigs. It's certainly gives execs/owners an easy excuse to not hire Bienemy and others like him.

All I'm saying is that, IMHO, I don't think that's a good reason to not hire somebody. Bill Belichick might have had lots of experience calling defensive plays, but he had none calling offensive plays and he hired defensive coordinators in NE to do that for him. He is the overseer of it all -- that is a head coach's primary role.

Rivera reacted to the Panthers' poor finish in 2018 by taking over the defensive play-calling role this season. We had one of the worst defenses in the league. Meanwhile, he wasn't able to give enough attention to other parts of his job, and the Panthers sucked even worse this season. Causation? Coincidence? I don't know, but it certainly didn't help having a play-caller at the helm.

But absolutely, Pak, you might be right about that being a reason guys can't get hired as HC.

[Pakuni]

I guess play calling matters since Pat Shurmur has been hired twice

It does matter. You're free to argue that it shouldn't matter, but it does.

[Uncle Rico]

It does matter. You're free to argue that it shouldn't matter, but it does.

I should have been more clear, being a play caller shouldn't matter.  Pat Shurmur was a play caller and was a terrible coach.

Matt Nagy called plays for 5 games, Freddie Kitchens for 8 games.  Zac Taylor called plays for one month.  Joe Judge has never called plays.

Byron Leftwich has more experience calling plays than all of the guys listed above.

Eric Bieniemy not calling plays is a convenient excuse.  If we admit play calling matters, let's at least assume skin color is still an issue in 2020.  Let's not kid ourselves, if Bieniemy were white, he'd be hired by now

[The Sultan]

Eric Bieniemy not calling plays is a convenient excuse.  If we admit play calling matters, let's at least assume skin color is still an issue in 2020.  Let's not kid ourselves, if Bieniemy were white, he'd be hired by now

He would be?  I have no idea if he is a good interviewer or not.  If he projected a strong vision for the team that corresponded with the higher ups.  Saying minority hiring in the coaching ranks is a problem is an accurate statement.  Saying that Bienemy would be a head coach if he were white is not necessarily one.

Regarding Joe Judge, I will withold any judgement on the hire until I see how he performs.  Andy Reid spent one year as the Packers QB coach when he was hired as head coach of the Eagles.  Prior to that he spent one year as a TE coach.  Before that he was an "offensive assistant."  And he turned out great. 

[Uncle Rico]

He would be?  I have no idea if he is a good interviewer or not.  If he projected a strong vision for the team that corresponded with the higher ups.  Saying minority hiring in the coaching ranks is a problem is an accurate statement.  Saying that Bienemy would be a head coach if he were white is not necessarily one.

Regarding Joe Judge, I will withold any judgement on the hire until I see how he performs.  Andy Reid spent one year as the Packers QB coach when he was hired as head coach of the Eagles.  Prior to that he spent one year as a TE coach.  Before that he was an "offensive assistant."  And he turned out great.

Honest question, do you think if Joe Judge were African-American and has the same resume, he gets hired?

[The Sultan]

Honest question, do you think if Joe Judge were African-American and has the same resume, he gets hired?

I have no idea.  Saying minority hiring in the macro sense is a problem is one thing, claiming someone specifically would or wouldn't get a job is another.

I mean, Brian Flores got a head gig as a position coach just last year.