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Author Topic: A macro view of P6 coaches  (Read 33238 times)

Cheeks

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #125 on: June 14, 2019, 07:04:15 PM »
Crean recruited in the mammoth Big East, which helped....that was arguably the greatest basketball conference in history, and the best at the time in my opinion.

He also was coming off a Final Four not far back to land the three amigos.  Shiny new practice facility only a year or two old when they signed.  Timing and situations matter. 
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muguru

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #126 on: June 14, 2019, 07:11:37 PM »
MUGURU....never...always....you sure that the eagle eye of yours has NEVER seen Wojo make any major adjustments in 5 years?

You sure about that?

Yes, I'm positive...show me a game where out of the blue, he started trapping, or pressing(not loose pressing, full court Louisville style), forcing turnovers to get back into games?? Show me where, over his five years, he has pulled out a zone(out of nowhere) to change the complexion of a game?? Again, those are the kinds of things I(me, no one else) looks for as far as in game Coaching goes.

Again a few possessions here and there don't cut it, for me...those aren't fair examples. Where he really lost me was this last year...game against Georgetown at home, BE title on the line...the FRESHMAN(and I emphasize the word Freshman) Guards from Georgetown are getting to the lane at will on MU. Argue if you want, they were getting calls etc, throwing up bad shots and they were going in, whatever you want to say about that, I respect that. That being said, none of those things happen if you keep them out of the lane altogether. How do you do that?? The BEST way is to be in their F'n grill with two longer, players(let's just say Cain and Bailey), be so tight on them they can hear your breath.

What's going to happen do you think, to two FRESHMAN Guards on the road, being hounded like that constantly(after about the third time they got in the lane at will, I'd have put an end to that). Most assuredly they WILL turn it over..at least a handful of times. There is NO disputing that, I don't think. So they turn it over, you get a few run outs, you get a couple of baskets, it changes the game, you win and are BE champions. Point being, what in the hell would it have hurt to TRY it?? The worst that happens is you get called for a couple of fouls on a couple of diff possessions. But the positives of it, FAR outweigh the negatives. I assure you of that. Even seasoned veteran Guards would turn it over in that situation more than a few times. Freshman most certainly will.

He(Wojo), has this seemingly strange obsession with doing the same thing over and over and over again(maybe a minor tweak here or there). It's like he thinks "okay, this time down we'll get a stop, it HAS to work this time". Except in al ot of cases it doesn't...didn't. That's when you NEED a bag of tricks.
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muguru

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #127 on: June 14, 2019, 07:21:13 PM »
Crean recruited in the mammoth Big East, which helped....that was arguably the greatest basketball conference in history, and the best at the time in my opinion.

He also was coming off a Final Four not far back to land the three amigos.  Shiny new practice facility only a year or two old when they signed.  Timing and situations matter.

But I hear constantly from people on this board how good/great the Big East is now. Granted, they say not as good as the old big east, but people hear continually rave about it. Besides, don't kids typically commit to Coaches..NOT schools and conferences?? I mean, yes, of course they do, that's why when a Coach leaves you see so many players leave said school.

Timing and situations matter...but so too do reputations..Wojo had/has the Duke pedigree when he came to MU. He might have been the ONE assistant in CBB that EVERYONE knew who he was..he had a reputation. Worked for Coach k. Monster recruiter was his reputation(yes, some of it was Duke, but even still).

Again...I admittedly, right or wrong, thought he would hit the ground running recruiting at MU. We'd see the best classes we have seen at MU, that's his reputation. We haven't yet. I'm not saying his recruiting has been poor..it hasn't. But it hasn't been as good as I thought/expected it to be either. I really believed his reputation would be the difference.

I will say it again, just so people don't think I never admit when I'm wrong...My frustrations with not having better results thus far(than what I expected), were because I truly thought his recruiting would be at a level that it masked some of his weaknesses as a Head Coach. That just hasn't happened. And now, because some of those weaknesses have shown themselves, it's probably affecting his recruiting to an extent. It's a conundrum.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #128 on: June 14, 2019, 08:32:07 PM »
Ok TAMU, this is a genuine question..I want you to ignore the trend line, and the overall records etc, for this question and tell me what have YOU seen from Wojo, that you like so much/that he does well(in your opinion), and things he needs to work on. You think he CAN get it done..that's fair...but why?? What do you see??

Thanks for asking.

I think Wojo is an overrated recruiter and underrated game coach. I think people prematurely declared him a great recruiter because he landed Henry. He deserves props for it for sure, but I feel like recruiting has gone down from there. 2020 will be a big test for him. Landing Symir was a great start but I'd like to see 3/5 of the open spots (or maybe 2 if they are elite recruits) filled by the early signing period to feel comfortable moving forward.

Wojo is a systems coach who likes to play a certain way. On the offensive side it has consistently produced elite results. The defensive side was a struggle but once the right players were in place it was best in (a down) Big East. I think Wojo's lack of adjustments is a myth. He does stick to his system but he adjusts within it. Just because a coach doesn't throw out a zone doesn't mean an adjustment wasn't made. Whose covering who, where the screen is coming from, when help comes/when it doesn't, etc.

One of the better indicators IMO of quality in game coaching is out of time out plays. Marquette's points per possession out of time outs, both offensive and defensive, have been at elite levels the past few years. He has a knack for knowing when to call a timeout and drawing up the right play. I've liked his roster management, it's been pretty rare that I've thought he was playing the wrong lineup or riding a player too long.

Mostly, it's because Wojo has improved as a coach every year. Each year, there seems to be a major bugaboo that gets addressed. No shooters, next season we're one of the elite shooting teams in the country. No defense? Next season were top in conference. This year the big problem was lack of slashers. Next season it looks like that will be addressed with the additions of McEwen, Elliott, Torrence. Now just because he's improved every season doesn't mean he will continue to improve going forward but I think it's good evidence.

I don't know if Wojo is the answer. I've seen enough good that I have hope and I haven't seen enough bad to want him gone. I don't fault anyone who does....though I think if you do, you have to recognize that no program would fire a coach with Wojo's resume at this point. I'm not sure that a coach has ever been fired immediately after earning a 5 seed or better without off the court issues.
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brewcity77

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #129 on: June 15, 2019, 12:24:54 AM »
One of the better indicators IMO of quality in game coaching is out of time out plays. Marquette's points per possession out of time outs, both offensive and defensive, have been at elite levels the past few years. He has a knack for knowing when to call a timeout and drawing up the right play. I've liked his roster management, it's been pretty rare that I've thought he was playing the wrong lineup or riding a player too long.

This is what I was thinking. The thing with adjustments like these is that they require careful analysis, usually after the game is over, to see. Wojo doesn't make big, reactionary adjustments, he tinkers. His offense was ranked 8th, 12th, & had surged into the top-20 before Markus' injury sank it to a still respectable 32.

Defensively, we went from two years of sub-160, "can't coach defense", to top-50, which the vast majority of people on this site didn't think could be done. That may not always happen with big, obvious adjustments the casual fan will notice, but when you break it down after, it's clear that it worked.

This is why Paint Touches is such a good follow. They highlight just this kind of stuff. I've come to appreciate Wojo a great deal more thanks to their articles & Twitter feed.
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muguru

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #130 on: June 15, 2019, 12:40:22 AM »
Thanks for asking.

I think Wojo is an overrated recruiter and underrated game coach. I think people prematurely declared him a great recruiter because he landed Henry. He deserves props for it for sure, but I feel like recruiting has gone down from there. 2020 will be a big test for him. Landing Symir was a great start but I'd like to see 3/5 of the open spots (or maybe 2 if they are elite recruits) filled by the early signing period to feel comfortable moving forward.

Wojo is a systems coach who likes to play a certain way. On the offensive side it has consistently produced elite results. The defensive side was a struggle but once the right players were in place it was best in (a down) Big East. I think Wojo's lack of adjustments is a myth. He does stick to his system but he adjusts within it. Just because a coach doesn't throw out a zone doesn't mean an adjustment wasn't made. Whose covering who, where the screen is coming from, when help comes/when it doesn't, etc.

One of the better indicators IMO of quality in game coaching is out of time out plays. Marquette's points per possession out of time outs, both offensive and defensive, have been at elite levels the past few years. He has a knack for knowing when to call a timeout and drawing up the right play. I've liked his roster management, it's been pretty rare that I've thought he was playing the wrong lineup or riding a player too long.

Mostly, it's because Wojo has improved as a coach every year. Each year, there seems to be a major bugaboo that gets addressed. No shooters, next season we're one of the elite shooting teams in the country. No defense? Next season were top in conference. This year the big problem was lack of slashers. Next season it looks like that will be addressed with the additions of McEwen, Elliott, Torrence. Now just because he's improved every season doesn't mean he will continue to improve going forward but I think it's good evidence.

I don't know if Wojo is the answer. I've seen enough good that I have hope and I haven't seen enough bad to want him gone. I don't fault anyone who does....though I think if you do, you have to recognize that no program would fire a coach with Wojo's resume at this point. I'm not sure that a coach has ever been fired immediately after earning a 5 seed or better without off the court issues.

I will say, at times last year, he had lineups on the floor that were offensively bankrupt. I remember many instances when Sam was the only true offensive threat on the floor(surrounded by some combo usually of Sacar, Bailey, Cain, Morrow/Theo). That always made me grimace seeing that combo. And sure enough, they almost always struggled to score in those situations.
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brewcity77

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #131 on: June 15, 2019, 08:01:35 AM »
I will say, at times last year, he had lineups on the floor that were offensively bankrupt. I remember many instances when Sam was the only true offensive threat on the floor(surrounded by some combo usually of Sacar, Bailey, Cain, Morrow/Theo). That always made me grimace seeing that combo. And sure enough, they almost always struggled to score in those situations.

So he had the #2, #4, and either the (virtually tied) #5 or 6 scorer on the floor together? Sometimes you have to rest Markus & Joey at the same time. Sometimes someone will be in foul trouble at the same time another guy needs a breather.

If this is your biggest complaint, frankly that seems a little silly.
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muguru

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #132 on: June 15, 2019, 09:44:15 AM »
Thanks for asking.

I think Wojo is an overrated recruiter and underrated game coach. I think people prematurely declared him a great recruiter because he landed Henry. He deserves props for it for sure, but I feel like recruiting has gone down from there. 2020 will be a big test for him. Landing Symir was a great start but I'd like to see 3/5 of the open spots (or maybe 2 if they are elite recruits) filled by the early signing period to feel comfortable moving forward.

Wojo is a systems coach who likes to play a certain way. On the offensive side it has consistently produced elite results. The defensive side was a struggle but once the right players were in place it was best in (a down) Big East. I think Wojo's lack of adjustments is a myth. He does stick to his system but he adjusts within it. Just because a coach doesn't throw out a zone doesn't mean an adjustment wasn't made. Whose covering who, where the screen is coming from, when help comes/when it doesn't, etc.

One of the better indicators IMO of quality in game coaching is out of time out plays. Marquette's points per possession out of time outs, both offensive and defensive, have been at elite levels the past few years. He has a knack for knowing when to call a timeout and drawing up the right play. I've liked his roster management, it's been pretty rare that I've thought he was playing the wrong lineup or riding a player too long.

Mostly, it's because Wojo has improved as a coach every year. Each year, there seems to be a major bugaboo that gets addressed. No shooters, next season we're one of the elite shooting teams in the country. No defense? Next season were top in conference. This year the big problem was lack of slashers. Next season it looks like that will be addressed with the additions of McEwen, Elliott, Torrence. Now just because he's improved every season doesn't mean he will continue to improve going forward but I think it's good evidence.

I don't know if Wojo is the answer. I've seen enough good that I have hope and I haven't seen enough bad to want him gone. I don't fault anyone who does....though I think if you do, you have to recognize that no program would fire a coach with Wojo's resume at this point. I'm not sure that a coach has ever been fired immediately after earning a 5 seed or better without off the court issues.

Fair enough...now another question, which I'm sure you have answered before, but I don't feel like digging through numerous threads to try to find it. But, what would MU have to do(or maybe more appropriately NOT do), this upcoming season, for you to be ready to move on?? Would not making the tournament be enough?? How bad would it have to be for you??

You also brought up a point about Wojo liking to play to his system..well this next year I think will be another HUGE test to see exactly what he's capable of. He doesn't have the luxury of relying on his offense to make 3's like they have been next year, so is he capable of/willing to revamp the ffense so it's more predicated on slashing(which I think all of us feel needs to happen).

What about defensively?? Will he run a more pressure style defensive that allows his athletes to try to make more plays, gain more possessions defensively. These would be pretty massive changes for him. That has me very concerned as we haven't seen him, to this point, willing to, or capable of making massive changes like that. Yet, the season may be predicated on it.

A lot of people here seem to be ASSUMING that's the way MU will play this next year, like it's a given. I hesitate to say that. I need to see it, to believe it first, or will he just play the same way with some tweaks here or there?? Honestly, next season, and his job COULD be predicated on whether or not he is capable of getting out of his "comfort" zone and doing something almost completely different than what he has to this point. If he doesn't...things COULD potentially be disastrous.
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

muguru

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #133 on: June 15, 2019, 09:58:41 AM »
So he had the #2, #4, and either the (virtually tied) #5 or 6 scorer on the floor together? Sometimes you have to rest Markus & Joey at the same time. Sometimes someone will be in foul trouble at the same time another guy needs a breather.

If this is your biggest complaint, frankly that seems a little silly.

Understandably, those things have to happen, so in a lot of cases he didn't/doesn't have a choice...but therein lies the problem, and the biggest concern I have had with him to date(because I thought it would be his greatest strength), is why isn't the talent better?? Again, I really and truly thought he'd have recruited far better than what he has to this point, I thought he would excel in that area, and the talent he would bring in would make up for any Coaching flaws he had. His recruiting hasn't been poor...it's been okay/good, but not at the level I expected/thought it would be at by now. I don't think ,given his reputation around college BB that it was unreasonable to think his recruiting would be better than what it has been.

Granted, not expecting Duke level, and he has had some hits in Markus and Henry as far as the big time recruits, but again, I really thought recruiting was going to be the least of concerns five years in. Thought the talent would be consistently good, and why I think I have been so frustrated to this point, and why i thought the results would have been better thus far. The talent just hasn't been where I assumed it would be at this point. Not sure why.
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

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IrwinFletcher

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #134 on: June 15, 2019, 10:55:28 AM »
Fair enough...now another question, which I'm sure you have answered before, but I don't feel like digging through numerous threads to try to find it. But, what would MU have to do(or maybe more appropriately NOT do), this upcoming season, for you to be ready to move on?? Would not making the tournament be enough?? How bad would it have to be for you??

You also brought up a point about Wojo liking to play to his system..well this next year I think will be another HUGE test to see exactly what he's capable of. He doesn't have the luxury of relying on his offense to make 3's like they have been next year, so is he capable of/willing to revamp the ffense so it's more predicated on slashing(which I think all of us feel needs to happen).

What about defensively?? Will he run a more pressure style defensive that allows his athletes to try to make more plays, gain more possessions defensively. These would be pretty massive changes for him. That has me very concerned as we haven't seen him, to this point, willing to, or capable of making massive changes like that. Yet, the season may be predicated on it.

A lot of people here seem to be ASSUMING that's the way MU will play this next year, like it's a given. I hesitate to say that. I need to see it, to believe it first, or will he just play the same way with some tweaks here or there?? Honestly, next season, and his job COULD be predicated on whether or not he is capable of getting out of his "comfort" zone and doing something almost completely different than what he has to this point. If he doesn't...things COULD potentially be disastrous.


The type of defensive scheme he plays is immaterial.  If he wants to play pack line or 40 minutes of hell, who gives a rip.  Just be good at whatever system you choose to run.  That is all I care about.

brewcity77

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #135 on: June 15, 2019, 11:12:17 AM »
Understandably, those things have to happen, so in a lot of cases he didn't/doesn't have a choice...but therein lies the problem, and the biggest concern I have had with him to date(because I thought it would be his greatest strength), is why isn't the talent better?? Again, I really and truly thought he'd have recruited far better than what he has to this point, I thought he would excel in that area, and the talent he would bring in would make up for any Coaching flaws he had. His recruiting hasn't been poor...it's been okay/good, but not at the level I expected/thought it would be at by now. I don't think ,given his reputation around college BB that it was unreasonable to think his recruiting would be better than what it has been.

Granted, not expecting Duke level, and he has had some hits in Markus and Henry as far as the big time recruits, but again, I really thought recruiting was going to be the least of concerns five years in. Thought the talent would be consistently good, and why I think I have been so frustrated to this point, and why i thought the results would have been better thus far. The talent just hasn't been where I assumed it would be at this point. Not sure why.

The talent won us 24 games & had us ranked in the top-10 before our best player got injured. The talent included a vastly improved defense so that the lineup you mentioned would have a ton of length on the floor and make it tough to score on.

Over the past 5 games of the season, Pomeroy had one lineup listed that had only one of Markus/Sam/Joey. It was a lineup of Chartouny/Anim/Bailey/Sam/Morrow. That lineup was responsible for 4% of the possessions. So based on our average tempo, that lineup was on the floor a little less than 3 possessions per game. What I gather looking at it is that sometimes Howard needed to rest & it's more of a defensive lineup, but still has 3 of our top-5 scorers. It also has our only other point guard (that was a miss, but he had to play some minutes) and Bailey, who played well offensively in that stretch (114.8 ORtg, 7 ppg, 38.9 3PFG%).

So for less than 3 possessions per game, Wojo played 3 of our 5 best offensive options, the hottest bench player, and our backup PG. Again...that complaint seems a little silly.

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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #136 on: June 15, 2019, 11:18:31 AM »
And how often was that line up used in game end situations when they were just running out the clock. Or for 30 seconds before a TV timeout?

It is statistically insignificant.
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Cheeks

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #137 on: June 15, 2019, 04:25:26 PM »
But I hear constantly from people on this board how good/great the Big East is now. Granted, they say not as good as the old big east, but people hear continually rave about it. Besides, don't kids typically commit to Coaches..NOT schools and conferences?? I mean, yes, of course they do, that's why when a Coach leaves you see so many players leave said school.

Timing and situations matter...but so too do reputations..Wojo had/has the Duke pedigree when he came to MU. He might have been the ONE assistant in CBB that EVERYONE knew who he was..he had a reputation. Worked for Coach k. Monster recruiter was his reputation(yes, some of it was Duke, but even still).

Again...I admittedly, right or wrong, thought he would hit the ground running recruiting at MU. We'd see the best classes we have seen at MU, that's his reputation. We haven't yet. I'm not saying his recruiting has been poor..it hasn't. But it hasn't been as good as I thought/expected it to be either. I really believed his reputation would be the difference.

I will say it again, just so people don't think I never admit when I'm wrong...My frustrations with not having better results thus far(than what I expected), were because I truly thought his recruiting would be at a level that it masked some of his weaknesses as a Head Coach. That just hasn't happened. And now, because some of those weaknesses have shown themselves, it's probably affecting his recruiting to an extent. It's a conundrum.

You are conflating again.  The Big East is a very good conference, that doesn’t mean it was as good as the old Big East for that 4 to 6 year stretch.  You know that, so why even pretend to make it a thing like you have?

Recruiting requires relationships, stability, etc.  Young coach, not from the area, former coach bad mouthing conference on his way out and couldn’t do dick in the new conference, clamp down on who could be recruited because previous coach abused that so badly....those things matter
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 05:28:08 PM by Cheeks »
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Cheeks

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #138 on: June 15, 2019, 05:40:14 PM »
Yes, I'm positive...show me a game where out of the blue, he started trapping, or pressing(not loose pressing, full court Louisville style), forcing turnovers to get back into games?? Show me where, over his five years, he has pulled out a zone(out of nowhere) to change the complexion of a game?? Again, those are the kinds of things I(me, no one else) looks for as far as in game Coaching goes.

Again a few possessions here and there don't cut it, for me...those aren't fair examples. Where he really lost me was this last year...game against Georgetown at home, BE title on the line...the FRESHMAN(and I emphasize the word Freshman) Guards from Georgetown are getting to the lane at will on MU. Argue if you want, they were getting calls etc, throwing up bad shots and they were going in, whatever you want to say about that, I respect that. That being said, none of those things happen if you keep them out of the lane altogether. How do you do that?? The BEST way is to be in their F'n grill with two longer, players(let's just say Cain and Bailey), be so tight on them they can hear your breath.

What's going to happen do you think, to two FRESHMAN Guards on the road, being hounded like that constantly(after about the third time they got in the lane at will, I'd have put an end to that). Most assuredly they WILL turn it over..at least a handful of times. There is NO disputing that, I don't think. So they turn it over, you get a few run outs, you get a couple of baskets, it changes the game, you win and are BE champions. Point being, what in the hell would it have hurt to TRY it?? The worst that happens is you get called for a couple of fouls on a couple of diff possessions. But the positives of it, FAR outweigh the negatives. I assure you of that. Even seasoned veteran Guards would turn it over in that situation more than a few times. Freshman most certainly will.

He(Wojo), has this seemingly strange obsession with doing the same thing over and over and over again(maybe a minor tweak here or there). It's like he thinks "okay, this time down we'll get a stop, it HAS to work this time". Except in al ot of cases it doesn't...didn't. That's when you NEED a bag of tricks.

Games where adjustments were made....Let's see just this past season alone:

Louisville we trailed at the half. Louisville ended up being a good team.  We won the second half, forced OT and won the game.

At Georgetown, our best player goes down in the opening minutes, we make massive adjustments and win the game on the road.

Wisconsin, with our best player struggling, we made several adjustments at the half and OT to win the game.

Nationally ranked Buffalo I think was tied at the half or maybe up one point....we won by 20 against the guy you love...Oats.

At Creighton, losing at halftime....came back to force OT and won the game.

Vs Providence at home, we were trailing by 8 points at halftime.  Adjustments, and won the second half by 19 to crush the Friars.

At Xavier, tie game at half, won on the road.

Butler at home, trailed at the half and won going away.

I could go on.  In some cases it was because guys weren't playing well, or guys in foul trouble (Theo, Ed, Markus) and changes had to be made.  Going to a zone to switch things up.  Whatever.  But for you to say NEVER, when I can rattle off a bunch this season alone, not to mention the previous four years, it again begs the question how blinded by hatred are you that you make these statements completely void of facts?

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brewcity77

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #139 on: June 15, 2019, 05:47:40 PM »
Games where adjustments were made....Let's see just this past season alone:

Louisville we trailed at the half. Louisville ended up being a good team.  We won the second half, forced OT and won the game.

At Georgetown, our best player goes down in the opening minutes, we make massive adjustments and win the game on the road.

Wisconsin, with our best player struggling, we made several adjustments at the half and OT to win the game.

Nationally ranked Buffalo I think was tied at the half or maybe up one point....we won by 20 against the guy you love...Oats.

At Creighton, losing at halftime....came back to force OT and won the game.

Vs Providence at home, we were trailing by 8 points at halftime.  Adjustments, and won the second half by 19 to crush the Friars.

At Xavier, tie game at half, won on the road.

Butler at home, trailed at the half and won going away.

I could go on.  In some cases it was because guys weren't playing well, or guys in foul trouble (Theo, Ed, Markus) and changes had to be made.  Going to a zone to switch things up.  Whatever.  But for you to say NEVER, when I can rattle off a bunch this season alone, not to mention the previous four years, it again begs the question how blinded by hatred are you that you make these statements completely void of facts?

This is good stuff. For some details, just from memory, against Kansas State, the refs were very loose with the whistles. Offensively, we focused on driving, largely through Markus, to foul multiple players out and take advantage of the Wildcats' short bench. Against Georgetown, not only did we lose our starting PG, but our only other PG (Chartouny) was awful. Rather than trying to ride him until he got hot, Wojo ran the offense through the Hausers & Anim. It was a very unconventional approach and led to the Point Joey comments.

I'm sure those aren't the only exact adjustments, but both helped us win games.
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Herman Cain

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #140 on: June 15, 2019, 09:37:28 PM »
Understandably, those things have to happen, so in a lot of cases he didn't/doesn't have a choice...but therein lies the problem, and the biggest concern I have had with him to date(because I thought it would be his greatest strength), is why isn't the talent better?? Again, I really and truly thought he'd have recruited far better than what he has to this point, I thought he would excel in that area, and the talent he would bring in would make up for any Coaching flaws he had. His recruiting hasn't been poor...it's been okay/good, but not at the level I expected/thought it would be at by now. I don't think ,given his reputation around college BB that it was unreasonable to think his recruiting would be better than what it has been.

Granted, not expecting Duke level, and he has had some hits in Markus and Henry as far as the big time recruits, but again, I really thought recruiting was going to be the least of concerns five years in. Thought the talent would be consistently good, and why I think I have been so frustrated to this point, and why i thought the results would have been better thus far. The talent just hasn't been where I assumed it would be at this point. Not sure why.
In order to viably compete for the higher level talent the program has to be a consistent winner and in the national conversation.

As long as we remain at the level we are at ,the type of players we can recruit and sign are going to be similar to what we have now.

The administration told the world they are happy with the level we are at. That means the current coach has his job and if the results are going to change he must become a more effective coach.

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muguru

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #141 on: June 15, 2019, 10:46:01 PM »
Games where adjustments were made....Let's see just this past season alone:

Louisville we trailed at the half. Louisville ended up being a good team.  We won the second half, forced OT and won the game.

At Georgetown, our best player goes down in the opening minutes, we make massive adjustments and win the game on the road.

Wisconsin, with our best player struggling, we made several adjustments at the half and OT to win the game.

Nationally ranked Buffalo I think was tied at the half or maybe up one point....we won by 20 against the guy you love...Oats.

At Creighton, losing at halftime....came back to force OT and won the game.

Vs Providence at home, we were trailing by 8 points at halftime.  Adjustments, and won the second half by 19 to crush the Friars.

At Xavier, tie game at half, won on the road.

Butler at home, trailed at the half and won going away.

I could go on.  In some cases it was because guys weren't playing well, or guys in foul trouble (Theo, Ed, Markus) and changes had to be made.  Going to a zone to switch things up.  Whatever.  But for you to say NEVER, when I can rattle off a bunch this season alone, not to mention the previous four years, it again begs the question how blinded by hatred are you that you make these statements completely void of facts?

Obviously you just "glossed" over what I said, and the kinds of adjustments I personally look for...I never once said he makes NO adjustments(show me where i said that)?? This is what  I said EXACTLY...I guess you just didn't use that part of what I said because well...it wouldn't fit your narrative...I also specifically said(I bolded it for you), that I(me no one else), looks for these types of adjustments. It's personal preference.

Yes, I'm positive...show me a game where out of the blue, he started trapping, or pressing(not loose pressing, full court Louisville style), forcing turnovers to get back into games?? Show me where, over his five years, he has pulled out a zone(out of nowhere) to change the complexion of a game?? Again, those are the kinds of things I(me, no one else) looks for as far as in game Coaching goes.

Also...I think a couple of games you mentioned get overlooked. I mean, let's be honest..yes, at the end of the day MU got the W, but...if that two had correctly been ruled a 3 in the UL game, MU loses. In the creighton game, Sam actually released that shot a tick to late..if that's ruled correctly, MU loses that one to. Those two change the season DRAMATICALLY, don't you agree?? They don't get a 5 seed, two more losses etc. Pomeroy said(which you use a lot) that MU was one of the luckiest teams in the country last year. How different does the season look without some of that luck?? Yet, that too gets conveniently "forgotten" when people praise Wojo for the "great" year he had. That HAS to be considered doesn't it?? the season maybe, really turly looks a bit better than what it actually was all things considered.
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brewcity77

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #142 on: June 16, 2019, 12:58:43 AM »
Yes, I'm positive...show me a game where out of the blue, he started trapping, or pressing(not loose pressing, full court Louisville style), forcing turnovers to get back into games?? Show me where, over his five years, he has pulled out a zone(out of nowhere) to change the complexion of a game?? Again, those are the kinds of things I(me, no one else) looks for as far as in game Coaching goes.

So because, apparently ignoring the games I mentioned, and ignoring Wojo's ATO efficiency, you aren't able to see the adjustments Wojo makes, he's not making adjustments. LOL okay.
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muguru

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #143 on: June 16, 2019, 01:31:14 AM »
So because, apparently ignoring the games I mentioned, and ignoring Wojo's ATO efficiency, you aren't able to see the adjustments Wojo makes, he's not making adjustments. LOL okay.

Seriously Brew?? Once again...let me put it in ALL CAPS for you...I HAVE NEVER ONCE SAID HE DOESN'T MAKE ADJUSTMENTS. Point to me where i said that, Please, I'm begging you...show me..Why do people continually INSIST on twisting what i say to make it fit their own Narratives?? I'm f'n tired of it. Follow along ONE MORE TIME....show me a game where out of the blue, he started trapping, or pressing(not loose pressing, full court Louisville style), forcing turnovers to get back into games?? Show me where, over his five years, he has pulled out a zone(out of nowhere) to change the complexion of a game?? Again, those are the kinds of things I(me, no one else) looks for as far as in game Coaching goes.

This is also what i said in an earlier post...He might tweak a thing or two, here or there, but he doesn't do anything that to me, can change the course of the game.

See the bolded part?? That is saying He does make adjustments...it does not in ANY way say he doesn't make them at all, does it?? Now I would appreciate people NOT trying to twist things i say, or flat out omit things i say to try to fit their narratives, when they aren't what i said.

I clearly do see the adjustments he makes during games, but...I cannot express this enough Brew...the adjustments I like seeing made that is an important factor for me to determine how good of a Coach is/isn't. I did it with Crean, I did it with Buzz, I do it with Wojo...It's PERSONAL PREFERENCE.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 01:34:24 AM by muguru »
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We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #144 on: June 16, 2019, 06:16:00 AM »
So unless he adjusts the way you want him to adjust, he's not making adjustments?  Many coaches don't trap and press.  Why is that how you judge a coach?
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brewcity77

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #145 on: June 16, 2019, 07:06:07 AM »
This is also what i said in an earlier post...He might tweak a thing or two, here or there, but he doesn't do anything that to me, can change the course of the game.

See the bolded part?? That is saying He does make adjustments...it does not in ANY way say he doesn't make them at all, does it?? Now I would appreciate people NOT trying to twist things i say, or flat out omit things i say to try to fit their narratives, when they aren't what i said.

I do. I do see the bolded part. To me it feels like more an admission of not understanding what Wojo is changing.

Here's the thing. You continually blast the talent. Then you continually blast the coach. So how is it we were in the top-10? If the talent is lacking and the coach is inept, how do we magically stumble into the top-10? Because somehow Marquette is preordained to be there? No. It's because we had a good roster last year. Not just the main scorers, but the defenders, the reserves, the supporting cast. And it's because our coach knew what he was doing. We have won 10 straight overtime games. Is that just luck? Sure. Maybe. But the odds of that happening, assuming you have a 50% chance of winning is 0.098%. You don't think maybe, just maybe, coaching had something to do with that, even if you don't recognize what moves Wojo is making?

At the end of last season, I was very much on the fence on Wojo. However you are convincing me otherwise. Your constant attacks have forced me to confront Wojo's record, and it's pretty freaking good. The overtime wins. The defensive improvements. The offensive stability that again had us as a top-20 offense before Howard's injury. If you want to know why the Wojo defenders defend Wojo, you are the reason. Your inability to understand how the adjustments he makes leads to wins, to realize just how his scripting out of timeouts matters, and how he either must be recruiting far better than you say or coaching far better than you say to get such a talentless bunch into the top-10 reinforces what a good coach Wojo surely must be.

So congratulations. Your arguments have been effective. Effective at convincing me we need to keep this guy. If you ever want to know why I defend the guy, and I suspect why many others do the same, look in the mirror. Your inability to craft a cohesive and accurate argument against him is the reason. And that despite being handed evidence, the Georgetown game, the K-State game, and the reliability of his after timeout plays, you still don't understand how even small adjustments can "turn the course of a game."

The metrics, which I generally trust, told us we weren't a top-10 team. Apparently the talent wasn't adequate to be a top-10 team. The critics all had reasons why we were overrated. Yet there we were. And Wojo was at the helm. Did he trust Markus too much after the injury? Sure. Did he not have a backup plan at that point? I'll concede that. But he's also a 5th year coach, he's still learning, and he got us to that point from the dustbin of what Buzz left behind. He put together a team that could play as a team, win as a team, defend as a team, and didn't need to make radical adjustments to get there, because the team was well enough coached that they still won 23 out of 27 games.

Just because he doesn't make the adjustments you want doesn't mean the adjustments he makes aren't effective. They clearly are. The results were there, you just didn't like how we got there. Deal with it.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 07:10:40 AM by brewcity77 »
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muguru

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #146 on: June 16, 2019, 08:23:03 AM »
I do. I do see the bolded part. To me it feels like more an admission of not understanding what Wojo is changing.

Here's the thing. You continually blast the talent. Then you continually blast the coach. So how is it we were in the top-10? If the talent is lacking and the coach is inept, how do we magically stumble into the top-10? Because somehow Marquette is preordained to be there? No. It's because we had a good roster last year. Not just the main scorers, but the defenders, the reserves, the supporting cast. And it's because our coach knew what he was doing. We have won 10 straight overtime games. Is that just luck? Sure. Maybe. But the odds of that happening, assuming you have a 50% chance of winning is 0.098%. You don't think maybe, just maybe, coaching had something to do with that, even if you don't recognize what moves Wojo is making?

At the end of last season, I was very much on the fence on Wojo. However you are convincing me otherwise. Your constant attacks have forced me to confront Wojo's record, and it's pretty freaking good. The overtime wins. The defensive improvements. The offensive stability that again had us as a top-20 offense before Howard's injury. If you want to know why the Wojo defenders defend Wojo, you are the reason. Your inability to understand how the adjustments he makes leads to wins, to realize just how his scripting out of timeouts matters, and how he either must be recruiting far better than you say or coaching far better than you say to get such a talentless bunch into the top-10 reinforces what a good coach Wojo surely must be.

So congratulations. Your arguments have been effective. Effective at convincing me we need to keep this guy. If you ever want to know why I defend the guy, and I suspect why many others do the same, look in the mirror. Your inability to craft a cohesive and accurate argument against him is the reason. And that despite being handed evidence, the Georgetown game, the K-State game, and the reliability of his after timeout plays, you still don't understand how even small adjustments can "turn the course of a game."

The metrics, which I generally trust, told us we weren't a top-10 team. Apparently the talent wasn't adequate to be a top-10 team. The critics all had reasons why we were overrated. Yet there we were. And Wojo was at the helm. Did he trust Markus too much after the injury? Sure. Did he not have a backup plan at that point? I'll concede that. But he's also a 5th year coach, he's still learning, and he got us to that point from the dustbin of what Buzz left behind. He put together a team that could play as a team, win as a team, defend as a team, and didn't need to make radical adjustments to get there, because the team was well enough coached that they still won 23 out of 27 games.

Just because he doesn't make the adjustments you want doesn't mean the adjustments he makes aren't effective. They clearly are. The results were there, you just didn't like how we got there. Deal with it.

The adjustments you cite, which did happen, yes, I saw them, I can see when something is different(but that's a nice shot you were taking at me), are normal adjustments you would expect any Coach to make during the course of a game. That's what basketball is. I haven't once said he has never made adjustments. What I said was..He hasn't demonstrated to me, yet, something I like to see a Coach have in his arsenal..A bag of tricks. Like the examples I cited with Crean and Buzz. To you, to fluffy, to Cheeks, to big bird, to snuffulupagus those types of things may not matter...and you know what?? That's fine. They don't have to matter to you, or anyone else. That's why it's called an opinion.

You, Cheeks, the count, Mr Rogers, Ernie and Bert may think he's doing a great job, and that he's the next coming of Al. Wonderful! You can think that way..You're entitled to! Me, Research report, the doc, and whoever else may think he's NOT the next coming of Al, and has a long ways to go to prove anything to us. Guess what?? That's our OPINION. We can have that opinion.

You and others, might think his recruiting has been phenomenal. Novel concept...you are allowed to think that. I personally have stated, I think his recruiting needs to get better...novel concept #2...I have every right to have that opinion.

But you know what?? I have stated numerous times before, I hope my OPINION of him is wrong. I hope you and big bird and the rest of the sesame street gang are correct, and he wins big and leads MU to a National Championship...nothing would make me happier. That's all I care about. I don't care who the Coach is that does it..If that's Wojo(highly doubtful IMO), outstanding, then you can all beat your chests and say "I told you so". That'd be totally fine by me, because I'd be too busy basking in the glow of them winning it all, and too busy watching every single Badger fan have epic meltdowns, and too busy rubbing their noses in it, that I wouldn't even notice you thumping your chest exclaiming "I was right, I was right, I was right!" You would be right, and nothing would make me happier, believe me.
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #147 on: June 16, 2019, 08:29:38 AM »
The adjustments you cite, which did happen, yes, I saw them, I can see when something is different(but that's a nice shot you were taking at me), are normal adjustments you would expect any Coach to make during the course of a game. That's what basketball is. I haven't once said he has never made adjustments. What I said was..He hasn't demonstrated to me, yet, something I like to see a Coach have in his arsenal..A bag of tricks. Like the examples I cited with Crean and Buzz. To you, to fluffy, to Cheeks, to big bird, to snuffulupagus those types of things may not matter...and you know what?? That's fine. They don't have to matter to you, or anyone else. That's why it's called an opinion.

You, Cheeks, the count, Mr Rogers, Ernie and Bert may think he's doing a great job, and that he's the next coming of Al. Wonderful! You can think that way..You're entitled to! Me, Research report, the doc, and whoever else may think he's NOT the next coming of Al, and has a long ways to go to prove anything to us. Guess what?? That's our OPINION. We can have that opinion.

You and others, might think his recruiting has been phenomenal. Novel concept...you are allowed to think that. I personally have stated, I think his recruiting needs to get better...novel concept #2...I have every right to have that opinion.

But you know what?? I have stated numerous times before, I hope my OPINION of him is wrong. I hope you and big bird and the rest of the sesame street gang are correct, and he wins big and leads MU to a National Championship...nothing would make me happier. That's all I care about. I don't care who the Coach is that does it..If that's Wojo(highly doubtful IMO), outstanding, then you can all beat your chests and say "I told you so". That'd be totally fine by me, because I'd be too busy basking in the glow of them winning it all, and too busy watching every single Badger fan have epic meltdowns, and too busy rubbing their noses in it, that I wouldn't even notice you thumping your chest exclaiming "I was right, I was right, I was right!" You would be right, and nothing would make me happier, believe me.


No one said he was the second coming of Al. No one said his recruiting is “phenomenal.”

It is the sign of an incredibly weak argument that you constantly have to resort to exaggeration to make your point.

Other people who aren’t really fans of Wojo don’t really resort to such dishonesty.
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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #148 on: June 16, 2019, 08:35:38 AM »
Football Coach X ran a fake punt and it helped win a game! Why doesn't our coach ever run a fake punt? So what if he wins 75% of his games ... we need a fake punt!
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muguru

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Re: A macro view of P6 coaches
« Reply #149 on: June 16, 2019, 08:36:08 AM »

No one said he was the second coming of Al. No one said his recruiting is “phenomenal.”

It is the sign of an incredibly weak argument that you constantly have to resort to exaggeration to make your point.

Other people who aren’t really fans of Wojo don’t really resort to such dishonesty.

I never said you and the rest of the Sesame Street gang said those things. But if they do feel that way, they are allowed to. That was my point. You want to hang posters of him all over your wall, go right ahead, you're allowed to do that too. You want to have a job being his go to guy for coffee runs, go right ahead, you can do that. You are allowed to feel however you want to feel about him as a Coach. I am allowed to feel how I want to feel about him as a Coach. They are called..OPINIONS. You do understand what those are grover, right??
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

 

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