BE at MSG through 2028

[GoldenWarrior11]

Another random thought, financial commitment to athletics is the best indicator IMHO of potential. Schools that are financially sound could turn from basketball nobodies to somebodies if they decided to throw money at their athletic programs. This has made me wonder if schools like Boston University and Denver could be dark horse candidates. You would need to see a lot of progress, obviously. But both schools have a lot of money to spend and if they used it to improve their basketball programs, I think they could develop into candidates. This would of course take years, possibly decades so neither are candidates for immediate expansion.

You want to disregard a school like SLU (who has made financial commitments to Ford and with their arena) because of their lack of program history, yet you want to add programs like Boston and Denver because they have financial potential (which they haven't used - ever - on basketball), yet they have never made the NCAA Tournament (Denver), or have not reached a Sweet 16 since the 1950's (Boston)?  That logic does not make sense at all.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You want to disregard a school like SLU (who has made financial commitments to Ford and with their arena) because of their lack of program history, yet you want to add programs like Boston and Denver because they have financial potential (which they haven't used - ever - on basketball), yet they have never made the NCAA Tournament (Denver), or have not reached a Sweet 16 since the 1950's (Boston)?  That logic does not make sense at all.

Dig into SLU's financials. I'm not convinced that they have the resources to make a continuing commitment to athletics.

[GoldenWarrior11]

Saint Louis ($1 billion) has a higher endowment than Denver ($770 million).  Boston does have a $2.1 billion endowment, but they play a majority of their games in the tiny Case Gym.  In their game last week, they had a whopping 603 people attend the game.  Boston University has as an incredibly slim chance of ever getting an invitation to the Big East.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

A bit more on the Madison Square Garden deal, and this:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/court-report-mark-few-continues-to-go-after-mark-emmert-figuring-out-kentuckys-3-point-woes/

Reading that link as a run-on sentence made me chuckle.

"Mark Few continues to go after Mark Emmert figuring out Kentucky's 3 point woes."

[The Lens]

Why can't Gonzaga join the BE as a basketball only member and keep their olympic sports in the WCC?

They could even subsidize the WCC with a percentage of their found money in joining the Big East.

Like it or not, every candidate outside of Gonzaga, UConn and maybe Cinci would be less of a member than current members.  Not sure that's a recipe for success.

[Marcus92]

UConn and Cincy aren't candidates. Because football.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Saint Louis ($1 billion) has a higher endowment than Denver ($770 million).  Boston does have a $2.1 billion endowment, but they play a majority of their games in the tiny Case Gym.  In their game last week, they had a whopping 603 people attend the game.  Boston University has as an incredibly slim chance of ever getting an invitation to the Big East.

Endowment isn't everything. And yes, both have an incredibly slim chance of ever getting an invite. That's why I said things like "dark horse", "not candidates for immediate expansion", and "would take decades". If you have to expand right this second you absolutely take SLU over either of them.

Fortunately, we don't have to expand right this second. I don't think SLU is anywhere close to deserving of an invite and I don't have faith that they will ever get there. I could be wrong but I think what we're seeing now is their peak. If we were to expand right now the only (realistic) team I see us expanding for is UConn.

[Marcus92]

But you did nail one thing: There are no clear-cut choices that meet our criteria (geography, commitment to basketball, improving the conference). I don't expect the Big East to expand until that changes. In the meantime, it absolutely doesn't need to.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

UConn and Cincy aren't candidates. Because football.

Football is a barrier. It doesn't remove them as candidates. You find a way to mitigate that barrier (either by removing football or making the deal sweet enough for the Big East that it makes up for drama of having a football school) and either could be added to the conference.

Cincy I don't think is realistic because their football program is actually viable. Not sure the same can be said for UConn.

[Marcus92]

If we were to expand right now the only (realistic) team I see us expanding for is UConn.

UConn isn't even that (a parenthetically "realistic" candidate), because football. The Big East presidents emphasized the importance of commitment to basketball back in 2013. The Big East commissioner emphasized the importance of commitment to basketball in her latest interview. UConn is not committed to basketball. If they were, they'd likely already be a member.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

UConn isn't even that (a parenthetically "realistic" candidate), because football. The Big East presidents emphasized the importance of commitment to basketball back in 2013. The Big East commissioner emphasized the importance of commitment to basketball in her latest interview. UConn is not committed to basketball. If they were, they'd likely already be a member.

Yeah... The only thing they're actually committed to is the bottom line. Everything else is negotiable.

If UConn being in the Big East would make them more $$$, they would welcome the Huskies and their football with open arms.

[Silkk the Shaka]

But you did nail one thing: There are no clear-cut choices that meet our criteria (geography, commitment to basketball, improving the conference). I don't expect the Big East to expand until that changes. In the meantime, it absolutely doesn't need to.

Agreed, unless there's a CLEAR candidate that meets those criteria, stay as-is.

[muwarrior69]

Okay that makes more sense re: round robin comment

And as long as we're fantasizing, why not have BOTH KU & UConn drop football and join us? Let's do this right!

Might as well add Duke while were at it.

[Marcus92]

You find a way to mitigate that barrier (either by removing football or making the deal sweet enough for the Big East that it makes up for drama of having a football school) and either could be added to the conference.

For the past 20 years, the administration has pursued a football-first strategy. They believe UConn belongs in a Power-5 football conference. That UConn deserves upwards of $30 million a year in conference payouts. Reality has done nothing to dissuade them. I think that's more than a barrier.

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

Why can't Gonzaga join the BE as a basketball only member and keep their olympic sports in the WCC?

They could even subsidize the WCC with a percentage of their found money in joining the Big East.

I think the amount of money that it would take for the WCC to agree to that would be much more than the Zags would be willing to pay.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

For the past 20 years, the administration has pursued a football-first strategy. They believe UConn belongs in a Power-5 football conference. That UConn deserves upwards of $30 million a year in conference payouts. Reality has done nothing to dissuade them. I think that's more than a barrier.

If that were the case then they wouldn't have reached out to the Big East.

[Benny B]

Since we're fantasizing about who to add, can we also talk about dropping DePaul?

Every school in the C7 stepped up their game (either literally or metaphorically speaking) since the Big East renovation.  Seton Hall and Providence are perennially competitive.  St. John's is going through a rebirth.  Georgetown has trended in the wrong direction lately, but has at least shown glimpses of righting the ship (or being able to) soon.  MU already spends more on hoops than everyone else in the NCAA 'cept Duke and has a brand new arena (so not much more to improve off the court) and Nova... well, the last three years says everything.

Then there's DePaul.  Last place, last place, last place, last place.... well they did go to the Final Four last year, oh wait, never mind, that was the better Catholic team from Chicago.  Think about that... LUC has more NCAA Tourney appearances than DePaul since the Reagan Administration.  If you wanted an indicator that DePaul is serious about basketball, look no further than the finest indicator in the NCAA known to human kind regarding one's commitment to basketball (or lack thereof): JLP.

IMO, if we're going to talk about changes to conference membership, the debate shouldn't be about SLU, Gonzaga, Dayton, Denver, Fordham, Duke or UCONN.  It should be about DePaul, period.  Then we can figure everything else out.

[GoldenWarrior11]

Why can't Gonzaga join the BE as a basketball only member and keep their olympic sports in the WCC?

They could even subsidize the WCC with a percentage of their found money in joining the Big East.

Like it or not, every candidate outside of Gonzaga, UConn and maybe Cinci would be less of a member than current members.  Not sure that's a recipe for success.

NCAA rules prevent it.  You can't have basketball-only members; your basketball conference is your main conference.  You can be a football-only in a conference, but only if your other sports are in another league (which would have happened if Boise State and San Diego State joined Big East Football a few years ago).

[GoldenWarrior11]

For the past 20 years, the administration has pursued a football-first strategy. They believe UConn belongs in a Power-5 football conference. That UConn deserves upwards of $30 million a year in conference payouts. Reality has done nothing to dissuade them. I think that's more than a barrier.

And this is why UConn is in BIG trouble moving forward.  They made the financial commitment to elevate football to FBS-level in early 2000's, thinking they were investing in an ACC invite.  Unfortunately, UConn did not have a D1 football program that carried the same history as other programs that were called up: Boston College, Miami, Virginia Tech, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, West Virginia and Louisville.  They have now fallen behind USF, UCF, Memphis, Houston and Cincinnati in the AAC.  They have the highest G5 athletic budget, but it is mostly subsidized by student fees and state allocations (not via natural revenue).  They aren't getting a B1G invite (non-AAU status).  They won't be getting an ACC invitation, unless Florida State, Clemson, Georgia Tech and Miami all leave (they won't risk diluting ACC Football for one of the worst FBS programs in the country). 

[drewm88]

Fine. If Duke wants to drop football, we can have a conversation.

But for real, we're in a good place and don't need to expand for the sake of expanding, so it would have to be someone who adds value to the BE on their own. That list and the list of schools who may be interested in joining may have only one overlap: UConn. Maybe Cincinnati?

SLU, Dayton, VCU, etc. can kick rocks. Sorry, the BE doesn't need you, so you're not getting the BE money.

[tower912]

It is nice to negotiate from a position of strength.

[MUMountin]

But you did nail one thing: There are no clear-cut choices that meet our criteria (geography, commitment to basketball, improving the conference). I don't expect the Big East to expand until that changes. In the meantime, it absolutely doesn't need to.

This, this, this. 

There is no perfect candidate right now, and the current product is working pretty well, so why change?  If it ain't broke...

And this isn't to say I'm anti-expansion.  But every possible school talked about has downsides that risk that we'd either be adding another potential DePaul (Dayton, SLU, etc) or a school that isn't as good of an institutional fit that you'd always have to worry about them getting poached for football (UConn, Cincinnati).  Since the NBE reformed, I've been waiting for one of these schools to sustain success that makes it impossible to ignore, but none have really done that.  So stick with whatcha got.

[barfolomew]

But every possible school talked about has downsides that risk that we'd either be adding another potential DePaul (Dayton, SLU, etc) or a school that isn't as good of an institutional fit that you'd always have to worry about them getting poached for football (UConn, Cincinnati).  Since the NBE reformed, I've been waiting for one of these schools to sustain success that makes it impossible to ignore, but none have really done that.  So stick with whatcha got.

I agree with the first part.
As to the bolded, though, I'm good with adding ONE of those. If they do get poached for football, easy to go back to whatcha had.

[MUMountin]

I agree with the first part.
As to the bolded, though, I'm good with adding ONE of those. If they do get poached for football, easy to go back to whatcha had.

Maybe eventually, but I'm not even convinced you need either right now or that they make the conference considerably better.  Give Hurley a few years at UConn and if he has them regularly back in contention, then make the move.  No need right now when they aren't a great fit otherwise.  Unless they are so desperate to make an offer you can't refuse—giving up a huge share of their TV money, etc.—I think you can wait on them.

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

A lot of interesting updates have come up in the last few days, since the BE announced its new TV deal.

First, Val openly stated that the Big East could go to eleven members in order preserve the round-robin format.  A few weeks ago, she also had a comment about wanting schools that "want to be here" (i.e. not using it as a stopgap until something better came along).  With the BE keeping MSG, and likely getting a strong chip in negotiations to extend with Fox (our games on Saturday offered strong ratings on the big network), we are in a position of strength to add, not out of despiration.

Secondly, the AAC is in all sorts of mess right now.  Aresco, whom we nearly got stuck with in the divorce, had to clarify some thoughts on a theorhetical GOR for the AAC, where it was rumored that he wanted to give unequal revenue distribution to "the Fortunate Five" - UCF, USF, Houston, Cincinnati and Memphis (which, rumored, really upset other conference members, namely UConn).  If the next AAC TV deal is not in the $8-$10 million range (which UConn was making in the Big East, and in the AAC due to the divorce package under war chest funds), and UConn realizes they will be making even less money, then the likelihood of them pursuing a Big East membership becomes much closer to reality.  UConn to the Big East would definitely make the league and its membership more money and exposure overall. 

With SLU having an incredibly strong attendance figure against Butler (nearly 10k) and wins against both Butler and Seton Hall, that is definitely a significant push in the right direction for their candidacy.  They already bring a like-minded institution (Jesuit), in a big media market (St. Louis - which has a great viewership opening in the Winter, thanks to the Rams leaving and no NBA team) and modern/updated athletic facilities.  With basketball on the up-and-up under Ford, he had a strong recruiting class the past two years, and a 7-2 start this season, if they were to win the A-10, or even get a win or two in the tournament, they would be brought in when their stock is high, thus allowing them to adjust to the Big East over the course of a few years - not unlike Butler, Creighton and Xavier successfully did.

Dislike immensely.  The butlers n SLUs will always be second fiddle type programs.  The same could be said about the other Big East institutions, although they have longer more accomplished resumes.  Nevertheless i dont see SLU adding anything to tge conference except a bottom wrung team in most years and a middle of the pack in their good years type team.  Unless u can hit a home run i woukd suggest leaving as is.