NFL 2018-19 2.0

[MU82]

Dude, I've never said you're calling Brady an average QB.
I'm saying that the argument that Brady's greatness is because of the system is a bad take.

It's one of those impossible to prove (or disprove) takes that those pushing another QB or those simply hating Brady like to throw out there. They can say it and it sounds good to them and makes them feel better about whichever QBs they want to tout ahead of him. Accomplishments, championships and statistics be damned!

[JWags85]

Dude, I've never said you're calling Brady an average QB.
I'm saying that the argument that Brady's greatness is because of the system is a bad take.

Ok, fair enough, thats not how it read earlier.

It's one of those impossible to prove (or disprove) takes that those pushing another QB or those simply hating Brady like to throw out there. They can say it and it sounds good to them and makes them feel better about whichever QBs they want to tout ahead of him. Accomplishments, championships and statistics be damned!

Come on Mike.  You sound like my Pats fan friends now.  You can think Brady isn't the greatest without it being some petty hate.  Its the same argument as Lebron proponents take (which all your Brady championing sounds similar to.)  One of them told me yesterday that if you either love watching Brady and the Pats or you really enjoying hating them and hating them is fun for you 

[forgetful]

But OK, he was 9th one season, with an 89.4 rating. He threw 21 TDs and 11 INTs.
The year before, with the same supporting cast, Brady posted a 117.2 rating. He threw 50 TDs and 8 INTs.
Same system, same coaches, same offensive weapons .... not the same production.

First, no one said Brady was an average QB. He has been called elite by everyone. The debate is on GOAT. And to ignore that is very system and offensive line dependent is ignorant of how Football is played. Not to mention it is essentially impossible to compare across eras.

Regarding your comment above. The season before the 117.2 rating, Brady had a 87.9 rating. The year after Cassel with the same supporting cast he had a 96.2 rating, with 28 TDs and 13 INT, behind the 3rd best OL in football.

Also, there is a difference between GOAT and most successful of all time.

[Goose]

Whenever I try to make conclusion on value of a player, I always try and listen to guys who have played the game at the highest level possible. I remember watching Woodson and Moss the day of Pack/Pats game this season, and both basically laughed off Rodgers being in same discussion with Brady. Matt Hasselbeck echoed their comments. Tom Brady has done things that truly are remarkable, and has done it for over two decades.

[Pakuni]

First, no one said Brady was an average QB. He has been called elite by everyone. The debate is on GOAT. And to ignore that is very system and offensive line dependent is ignorant of how Football is played. Not to mention it is essentially impossible to compare across eras.

Regarding your comment above. The season before the 117.2 rating, Brady had a 87.9 rating. The year after Cassel with the same supporting cast he had a 96.2 rating, with 28 TDs and 13 INT, behind the 3rd best OL in football.

Also, there is a difference between GOAT and most successful of all time.

No one accused anyone here of calling Brady an average QB. Why do you guys keep harping on that?

Regarding Brady's 2006 and 2009 seasons ...
2006 had a very different supporting cast (no Moss, no Welker, top receivers were Reche Caldwell and a 35-year-old Troy Brown)
2009 he had a much better year than Cassel, in his first action returning from tearing both his ACL and MCL. This proves the system argument how?

I'm not even arguing GOAT or not here. I'm telling you that efforts to minimize Brady's success - and that's what you guys are trying to do - by crediting the "system" are bad, disproven takes.

[forgetful]

No one accused anyone here of calling Brady an average QB. Why do you guys keep harping on that?

Regarding Brady's 2006 and 2009 seasons ...
2006 had a very different supporting cast (no Moss, no Welker, top receivers were Reche Caldwell and a 35-year-old Troy Brown)
2009 he had a much better year than Cassel, in his first action returning from tearing both his ACL and MCL. This proves the system argument how?

I'm not even arguing GOAT or not here. I'm telling you that efforts to minimize Brady's success - and that's what you guys are trying to do - by crediting the "system" are bad, disproven takes.

Serious questions. If you replaced Brady with Manning, or Brady with Favre, or Brady with Rodgers, or Brady with Brees. Training in the same system and with the same supporting casts. Do you think any of them would have been less successful than Brady?

[Pakuni]

Serious questions. If you replaced Brady with Manning, or Brady with Favre, or Brady with Rodgers, or Brady with Brees. Training in the same system and with the same supporting casts. Do you think any of them would have been less successful than Brady?

I would be surprised if they matched Brady's success, but I have no way of giving an intelligent answer. I don't think anyone could give an intelligent answer.
I think we can agree the other QBs you mention, with perhaps the exception of Rodgers, certainly haven't lacked for outstanding supporting casts and coaching, yet failed to come close to matching Brady's success.

[forgetful]

I would be surprised if they matched Brady's success, but I have no way of giving an intelligent answer. I don't think anyone could give an intelligent answer.
I think we can agree the other QBs you mention, with perhaps the exception of Rodgers, certainly haven't lacked for outstanding supporting casts and coaching, yet failed to come close to matching Brady's success.

Manning, Brees, and Rodgers did not have great supporting casts.

For Manning alone. Five different head coaches (Super Bowl with 4 of them). Three different offensive systems he had to learn.

But you are right, there is no way to give an intelligent answer. And that is the point. It is entirely dependent on the system, the coaching, the supporting casts, and most importantly the OL.

There is no doubt that Brady has been the most successful, but it is an absurdly bad take to say that isn't to a large extent part of the system, coaching, and his OL.

Put Brady on the Jets, Lions, Bears, or Tampa Bay. And he was out of the league 6-8 years ago. Not because of talent, but because of systems etc. Same is true for Manning, Brees, Rodgers and any of the other greats.

That is why I hate GOAT discussions.

[Pakuni]

Manning, Brees, and Rodgers did not have great supporting casts.

Huh?
Manning had Hall of Famer Marshall Faulk; four-time Pro Bowler Edgerrin James; Hall of Famer Marvin Harrison; six-time Pro Bowler Reggie Wayne; Pro Bowl tight end Dallas Clark. etc. He was coached by the likes of Hall of Famer Tony Dungy, Tom Moore and Bruce Arians.
Brees has had multiple All Pro/ Pro Bowl linemen (Jahari Evans, Jamaal Brown, Jermon Bushrod, to name a few); Pro Bowl backs like Kamara, Ingram; Pro Bowl receivers and TEs (Thomas, Graham).  And he's been coached by a potentially HOF offensive guru in Payton. 

This is getting just dumb at this point. If you don't like Brady, fine. But I'm not going to waste time with people who want to argue things that are provably false or state as fact obvious speculation (i.e put Brady on the Jets and he's out of the league eight years ago is a hot take that would make Mike Francesca proud).

[BM1090]

Serious questions. If you replaced Brady with Manning, or Brady with Favre, or Brady with Rodgers, or Brady with Brees. Training in the same system and with the same supporting casts. Do you think any of them would have been less successful than Brady?

To me the better question is, do you think if Brady replaced Brees in NO running Payton's system or Rodgers in GB running MM's system, do you think either team would have been more successful?

[#UnleashSean]

Serious questions. If you replaced Brady with Manning, or Brady with Favre, or Brady with Rodgers, or Brady with Brees. Training in the same system and with the same supporting casts. Do you think any of them would have been less successful than Brady?

Favre would because of his wonton disregard for the ball.

Rodgers would because of his refusal to make any risky throws.

Manning may have been as good as Brady under that system.

[#UnleashSean]

Manning, Brees, and Rodgers did not have great supporting casts.

[forgetful]

Huh?
Manning had Hall of Famer Marshall Faulk; four-time Pro Bowler Edgerrin James; Hall of Famer Marvin Harrison; six-time Pro Bowler Reggie Wayne; Pro Bowl tight end Dallas Clark. etc. He was coached by the likes of Hall of Famer Tony Dungy, Tom Moore and Bruce Arians.
Brees has had multiple All Pro/ Pro Bowl linemen (Jahari Evans, Jamaal Brown, Jermon Bushrod, to name a few); Pro Bowl backs like Kamara, Ingram; Pro Bowl receivers and TEs (Thomas, Graham).  And he's been coached by a potentially HOF offensive guru in Payton. 

This is getting just dumb at this point. If you don't like Brady, fine. But I'm not going to waste time with people who want to argue things that are provably false or state as fact obvious speculation (i.e put Brady on the Jets and he's out of the league eight years ago is a hot take that would make Mike Francesca proud).

Manning, Five different coaches. Three different systems.  I don't think you have any understanding of how difficult that is to do.

You haven't proven anything false. Because it is not possible, as you admitted, there is no way to provide an intelligent answer. You just claim to prove things false, with your opinions.

I'm not even sure why someone would make an argument that the play and success of a QB is NOT very system, coaching, and OL dependent. It defies any semblance of logic and reality.

I'm just confused as to why you wouldn't just admit, that comparing greats is pure opinion, because success and performance is very system, coaching, and OL dependent.

[forgetful]

I meant to write "as great of".

It is impossible to be a top tier anything without greats around you, because by default they are statistics based and for a QB to be great, someone has to catch the ball. Similarly, for a PG to be great, someone needs to make some shots.

The rest is pure opinion and speculation. As is everything in comparing greats.

[wadesworld]

The Patriots "system" has changed many times in Brady's time with the Patriots. So I guess Brady is a product of multiple systemS?

[Pakuni]

Manning, Five different coaches. Three different systems.  I don't think you have any understanding of how difficult that is to do.

Manning ran Tom Moore's system for his entire career in Indianapolis and was the de facto offensive coordinator in Denver.

[MU82]

Come on Mike.  You sound like my Pats fan friends now.  You can think Brady isn't the greatest without it being some petty hate.  Its the same argument as Lebron proponents take (which all your Brady championing sounds similar to.)  One of them told me yesterday that if you either love watching Brady and the Pats or you really enjoying hating them and hating them is fun for you 

Wags:

Re-reading my comment, my tone was poor. So let me start with apologizing for that. And I'm not a fan of using "hate," even in what's now the accepted colloquielism "hater" (which really means somebody who rips on, dislikes, is skeptical about, criticizes, etc), so I'll try to stop using it. As for the rest ...

I am not even close to a Pats fan. I really dislike the team, Belichick, Kraft, the special treatment they seem to receive, etc. I was rooting hard for the Chiefs -- actually stood up from the couch and applauded when I thought they had sealed the win with that INT near the end of regulation. But as a football fan and a guy who has observed the sport pretty closely for a long time, I greatly admire Brady and his body of work. And I still haven't seen or heard a convincing argument here that he is anything but what his incredible resume says he is: the best QB ever.

[MU82]

forgetful (and others arguing against Brady as best ever):

Everything in this part of the thread on Brady is opinion except this:

70K yards and 500+ TDs in the regular season ... 9 Super Bowl appearances ... 5 (perhaps 6) Super Bowl wins ... division championships almost every year ... revolving door of supporting casts over two decades.

Now, folks might look at that list of accomplishments and dismiss them as not "proving" anything. Which is OK. We all have opinions. But those dismissals are mere opinions. What I just listed were facts that are pretty hard to knock, and no other QB in NFL history can match 'em.

[forgetful]

forgetful (and others arguing against Brady as best ever):

Everything in this part of the thread on Brady is opinion except this:

70K yards and 500+ TDs in the regular season ... 9 Super Bowl appearances ... 5 (perhaps 6) Super Bowl wins ... division championships almost every year ... revolving door of supporting casts over two decades.

Now, folks might look at that list of accomplishments and dismiss them as not "proving" anything. Which is OK. We all have opinions. But those dismissals are mere opinions. What I just listed were facts that are pretty hard to knock, and no other QB in NFL history can match 'em.

Just for the record. I never argued anything regarding WHO was GOAT. I am stating that such an argument is purely conjecture and opinion, because it is highly dependent on system, talent, OL and other factors that make any definitive stance impossible.

As I said before there is a difference between most successful, and greatest.

[MU82]

Just for the record. I never argued anything regarding WHO was GOAT. I am stating that such an argument is purely conjecture and opinion, because it is highly dependent on system, talent, OL and other factors that make any definitive stance impossible.

As I said before there is a difference between most successful, and greatest.

Of course it's all opinion.

I simply would argue the facts support my opinion better than those who opine that Brady is not the greatest.

[GooooMarquette]

Just for the record. I never argued anything regarding WHO was GOAT. I am stating that such an argument is purely conjecture and opinion, because it is highly dependent on system, talent, OL and other factors that make any definitive stance impossible.

As I said before there is a difference between most successful, and greatest.

Yep. I suspect that if Dan Marino had the kind of support and coaching that guys like Brady and Montana have had, he would at least be in the discussion.

[Pakuni]

Yep. I suspect that if Dan Marino had the kind of support and coaching that guys like Brady and Montana have had, he would at least be in the discussion.

Was Marino's support and coaching bad?
Don Shula was a pretty OK football coach. And Marino played with guys like Dwight Stephenson (HOF center), Richmond Webb (7 Pro Bowls at left tackle), Mark Clayton and Mark 'Super' Duper at receiver (5 and 3 Pro Bowls, respectively) and some other decentoffensive weapons (Ferell Edmunds, Irvin Fryar)
Marino never had much of a running game, but the reason he never won a title had more to do with bumping up against better teams (the four-time Super Bowl losing Bills, for one) and a handful of clunker games in the playoffs.

Also, he should have turned the laces out.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Was Marino's support and coaching bad?
Don Shula was a pretty OK football coach. And Marino played with guys like Dwight Stephenson (HOF center), Richmond Webb (7 Pro Bowls at left tackle), Mark Clayton and Mark 'Super' Duper at receiver (5 and 3 Pro Bowls, respectively) and some other decentoffensive weapons (Ferell Edmunds, Irvin Fryar)
Marino never had much of a running game, but the reason he never won a title had more to do with bumping up against better teams (the four-time Super Bowl losing Bills, for one) and a handful of clunker games in the playoffs.

Also, he should have turned the laces out.

He also constantly audibled out of the run because his ego was out of control

[MU B2002]

Anyone ever been to the probowl?  Taking my 4 year old this Sunday, and just curious if there are any fan events that are worth attending.

[CTWarrior]

I don't know if Brady is the GOAT, but I do know that the system matters a lot.  A guy like Archie Manning never had a chance to be in the discussion, since he spent his formative years running for his life on terrible teams.  I am very confident that if Tom Brady was drafted by the Jets, no one would be thinking about him now as the GOAT.  He is unquestionably great, but circumstances have a lot to do with ultimate perception.