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Author Topic: 2018 College Football Thread  (Read 24265 times)

GGGG

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #100 on: October 29, 2018, 01:06:08 PM »
So? Really, Sultan, what does that have to do with anything?


Well...glow labelled it the "who gives a d@mn" bowl.  Apparently plenty of people do.

MUDish

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #101 on: October 29, 2018, 01:26:21 PM »
I'd call the Illinois football program a dumpster fire, but that would be being too kind to dumpster fires everywhere.

It's stunning with the amount of high school football talent in the state just how awful Illinois has been for a long time now. They are basically the equivalent of DePaul basketball.
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ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #102 on: October 29, 2018, 01:54:40 PM »
I'd call the Illinois football program a dumpster fire, but that would be being too kind to dumpster fires everywhere.

It's stunning with the amount of high school football talent in the state just how awful Illinois has been for a long time now. They are basically the equivalent of DePaul basketball.

Is there really that much talent in the state though?

Illinois has always been a basketball state and I'd argue football plays 3rd or 4th fiddle behind volleyball and maybe soccer.

Every once in awhile you'll get a Clayton Thorson or a Justin Jackson, but typically players on a good high school team like a Maine South or Loyola haven't historically translated well to college.

Pakuni

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #103 on: October 29, 2018, 02:05:30 PM »
I'd call the Illinois football program a dumpster fire, but that would be being too kind to dumpster fires everywhere.

It's stunning with the amount of high school football talent in the state just how awful Illinois has been for a long time now. They are basically the equivalent of DePaul basketball.

Oddly, I recently was surprised by how little football talent Illinois produces relative to its size.

The state's Class of 2016 had just one top 200 player (per 247).
Class of 2017 had three.
Class of 2018 had one.
Class of 2019 has two (the highest rated being #138).

Not that it's an excuse for how bad the Illini have been (we can blame that on terrible coaching hires since John Mackvic), but the state hasn't been a hotbed for college football talent since Donovan McNabb and Simeon Rice were teammates at Mount Carmel.

GGGG

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #104 on: October 29, 2018, 02:16:58 PM »
Oddly, I recently was surprised by how little football talent Illinois produces relative to its size.

The state's Class of 2016 had just one top 200 player (per 247).
Class of 2017 had three.
Class of 2018 had one.
Class of 2019 has two (the highest rated being #138).

Not that it's an excuse for how bad the Illini have been (we can blame that on terrible coaching hires since John Mackvic), but the state hasn't been a hotbed for college football talent since Donovan McNabb and Simeon Rice were teammates at Mount Carmel.


Of the seven players listed above, did Illinois get any of them though?

One of the reasons Wisconsin has been good for the last 25 years is that it's very rare for top prospects to leave the state.  And those prospects have been the core of the offensive line, defensive line, occasional linebacker, etc.  They just have to go out of state and get the skill positions elsewhere.

Wisconsin can also do this because it is undoubtedly the state's football school.  Not only is it literally the only D1 program in the state, by and large the people of Wisconsin will default to the Badgers as "their" team.

I don't think you can say the same about the people from Illinois.

ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #105 on: October 29, 2018, 02:18:17 PM »

Of the seven players listed above, did Illinois get any of them though?

One of the reasons Wisconsin has been good for the last 25 years is that it's very rare for top prospects to leave the state.  And those prospects have been the core of the offensive line, defensive line, occasional linebacker, etc.  They just have to go out of state and get the skill positions elsewhere.

Wisconsin can also do this because it is undoubtedly the state's football school.  Not only is it literally the only D1 program in the state, by and large the people of Wisconsin will default to the Badgers as "their" team.

I don't think you can say the same about the people from Illinois.

Illinois also has to fight off Northwestern whil Wisconsin doesn't have any other school instate.

MUDish

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #106 on: October 29, 2018, 02:22:54 PM »
I'm probably out of the loop and not paying as much attention then, figured the state of Illinois was still at/near top 10 for producing high school talent, but I believe now what you guys said.

The Illini program just feels like there's been zero innovative thoughts going on there over the last two decades. I'm not a CFB expert by any stretch, but I think I read Lovie is like the 5th highest paid coach in D1?
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Pakuni

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #107 on: October 29, 2018, 02:43:53 PM »
Illinois also has to fight off Northwestern whil Wisconsin doesn't have any other school instate.

And Notre Dame, especially for the Catholic school kids.

To answer Sultan's question, those seven kids went to: Georgia, Iowa, Miami (FL), Notre Dame, Michigan State, Minnesota and uncommitted.

GGGG

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #108 on: October 29, 2018, 02:45:08 PM »
Hiring Lovie was beyond ridiculous - and that's what Pakuni is getting at.  They have constantly hired the wrong guys. 

Here's what they should do.  Hire a successful coach from another G5 school, THAT ISN'T THE MAC!!!  For some reason, Big Ten teams LOVE their MAC coaches, and they almost always suck.  Look at the "paddle the boat" guy up in Minnesota.  I mean really.

So who would that be?  Luke Fickell, Cincinnati, Former OSU DC. 

MUBurrow

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #109 on: October 29, 2018, 03:10:13 PM »
Hiring Lovie was beyond ridiculous - and that's what Pakuni is getting at.  They have constantly hired the wrong guys. 

Here's what they should do.  Hire a successful coach from another G5 school, THAT ISN'T THE MAC!!!  For some reason, Big Ten teams LOVE their MAC coaches, and they almost always suck.  Look at the "paddle the boat" guy up in Minnesota.  I mean really.

So who would that be?  Luke Fickell, Cincinnati, Former OSU DC.

Illinois will never succeed by out Big Tenning the Big Ten. They've got to make a real effort to get weird. Maybe hire a spread guy?  A couple options would be Mike Norvell from Memphis, Jay Norvell from Nevada. Maybe Ken Niumatalolo would be willing to leave Navy? That could be fun and strange.

Pakuni

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #110 on: October 29, 2018, 03:16:45 PM »
Hiring Lovie was beyond ridiculous - and that's what Pakuni is getting at.  They have constantly hired the wrong guys. 

Here's what they should do.  Hire a successful coach from another G5 school, THAT ISN'T THE MAC!!!  For some reason, Big Ten teams LOVE their MAC coaches, and they almost always suck.  Look at the "paddle the boat" guy up in Minnesota.  I mean really.

So who would that be?  Luke Fickell, Cincinnati, Former OSU DC.

Well, the MAC did produce Saban and Meyer, so it's not all bad.
Really, Illinois needs to think much bigger than it ever has and make a large offer to someone who's had success at a P5 school. Maybe Dana Holgorsen, who's from the Midwest, isn't in the 25 highest paid coaches in college football and would generate a lot of excitement in Chambana.
Or Kyle Whittingham who's got to be tired of Utah by now and, likewise, isn't in the top 25 when it comes to salary.

MUBurrow

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #111 on: October 29, 2018, 03:19:16 PM »
Well, the MAC did produce Saban and Meyer, so it's not all bad.
Really, Illinois needs to think much bigger than it ever has and make a large offer to someone who's had success at a P5 school. Maybe Dana Holgorsen, who's from the Midwest, isn't in the 25 highest paid coaches in college football and would generate a lot of excitement in Chambana.
Or Kyle Whittingham who's got to be tired of Utah by now and, likewise, isn't in the top 25 when it comes to salary.

This is what U of I did with Underwood, and it paid off. Maybe they go back to the well? Gundy seems on the verge of being fired pretty much all the time, and the list I saw had him being paid the same amount as Lovie.

MU82

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #112 on: October 29, 2018, 03:38:06 PM »

Well...glow labelled it the "who gives a d@mn" bowl.  Apparently plenty of people do.

You compared apples to oranges, which is unlike you.

I mean, the WhateverWhoCares.com Bowl will probably have more viewers than Gilligan's Island reruns on Nick At Nite, too, but that doesn't mean we can't have fun mocking F%cky for being in a second-rate bowl.
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GGGG

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #113 on: October 29, 2018, 03:40:48 PM »
Illinois will never succeed by out Big Tenning the Big Ten. They've got to make a real effort to get weird. Maybe hire a spread guy?  A couple options would be Mike Norvell from Memphis, Jay Norvell from Nevada. Maybe Ken Niumatalolo would be willing to leave Navy? That could be fun and strange.

I don't disagree.  But the Norvells really haven't done anything though.


Well, the MAC did produce Saban and Meyer, so it's not all bad.
Really, Illinois needs to think much bigger than it ever has and make a large offer to someone who's had success at a P5 school. Maybe Dana Holgorsen, who's from the Midwest, isn't in the 25 highest paid coaches in college football and would generate a lot of excitement in Chambana.
Or Kyle Whittingham who's got to be tired of Utah by now and, likewise, isn't in the top 25 when it comes to salary.

Holgorsen could be interesting.  Not sure Whittingham would leave.

Mr. Nielsen

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #114 on: October 29, 2018, 03:44:40 PM »

Well...glow labelled it the "who gives a d@mn" bowl.  Apparently plenty of people do.
Yep. The worst bowl game still draw over a million viewers.
If winning weren't important nobody would keep score.
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jsglow

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #115 on: October 29, 2018, 05:51:50 PM »
Yep. The worst bowl game still draw over a million viewers.

It will, you guys are right.

jesmu84

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #116 on: October 29, 2018, 06:36:24 PM »
What's the feeling among Illinois alumni/donors? Are they realistic about the current state of the program or do they expect a new guy to be competing for conference championship within 2-3 seasons?

Because if they're anything like some (most?) Bears fans (meatballs) then nothing will satisfy then and they'll never allow anyone to build a program the right way

JWags85

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #117 on: October 29, 2018, 06:54:41 PM »
I don't disagree.  But the Norvells really haven't done anything though.

Jay hasnt yet at Nevada, but Mike has done a very good job at Memphis.  8-4 in his first year, 10-2 last year and only lost to UCF twice, but took them to the wire in the conference championship.  And they are 4-4 this year, which is disappointing, but they lost to Navy on the road and UCF at home by a combined 2 points after losing a record setting QB and a WR that went in the second round.  I think he's gonna be a hot name in the offseason, even though I believe he is the highest paid non-P5 HC.

MUBurrow

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #118 on: October 30, 2018, 10:09:18 AM »
Really, Illinois needs to think much bigger than it ever has and make a large offer to someone who's had success at a P5 school.

Three words: Decided. Schematic. Advantage.

Pakuni

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #119 on: October 30, 2018, 10:15:17 AM »
What's the feeling among Illinois alumni/donors? Are they realistic about the current state of the program or do they expect a new guy to be competing for conference championship within 2-3 seasons?

Because if they're anything like some (most?) Bears fans (meatballs) then nothing will satisfy then and they'll never allow anyone to build a program the right way

The Illini alums/fans I know don't have outsized expectations for the football program (hoops on the other hand ...).
There's no belief they should be competing with Ohio State, Michigan, etc., on a regular basis. They just want to be respectable and appear in a major bowl now and again. I think they look at programs like Iowa, Michigan State and even Wisconsin and, understandably, ask 'Why not us?'


MUDish

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #120 on: October 30, 2018, 10:21:54 AM »
The Illini alums/fans I know don't have outsized expectations for the football program (hoops on the other hand ...).
There's no belief they should be competing with Ohio State, Michigan, etc., on a regular basis. They just want to be respectable and appear in a major bowl now and again. I think they look at programs like Iowa, Michigan State and even Wisconsin and, understandably, ask 'Why not us?'

I immediately thought of Iowa and Mich St as what Illinois should aspire to be. I think that's right on the money.
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MUBurrow

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #121 on: October 30, 2018, 10:27:27 AM »
I immediately thought of Iowa and Mich St as what Illinois should aspire to be. I think that's right on the money.

I think their recruiting base is so much worse, though. Wisconsin and Iowa have entire states full of cornfed OL in training who aspire to be Badgers and Hawkeyes from birth. Even Michigan is a much better recruiting ground than IL, and MSU gets a lot of the guys that don't go to UM or tOSU.  Illinois is pretty bare for football talent, and what is there is either Chicago suburbs (private school or public schools with a private school mentality who collectively view Champaigne as a wasteland) or southern IL where U of I is going to run into northern SEC/eastern Big 12 country. I still contend Illinois only path to success is to get weird and form an identity along the lines of a Mike Leach, Paul Johnson, or other small cult of personality.

Pakuni

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #122 on: October 30, 2018, 10:42:53 AM »
I think their recruiting base is so much worse, though. Wisconsin and Iowa have entire states full of cornfed OL in training who aspire to be Badgers and Hawkeyes from birth. Even Michigan is a much better recruiting ground than IL, and MSU gets a lot of the guys that don't go to UM or tOSU.  Illinois is pretty bare for football talent, and what is there is either Chicago suburbs (private school or public schools with a private school mentality who collectively view Champaigne as a wasteland) or southern IL where U of I is going to run into northern SEC/eastern Big 12 country. I still contend Illinois only path to success is to get weird and form an identity along the lines of a Mike Leach, Paul Johnson, or other small cult of personality.

So, I know I talked down the Illinois recruiting base earlier in this thread, but there's definitely far more talent to be had in the state than in Wisconsin and Iowa.  And I don't think city/suburban kids view Champaign as a wasteland ... the campus, after all, teems with city/suburban kids.
But you're correct that, barring some family connection, nobody in the Chicago area grows up dreaming of playing for the state school. That's what generations of mediocrity combined with a long-term lack of program identity will do for you.

GGGG

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #123 on: October 30, 2018, 10:53:28 AM »
So, I know I talked down the Illinois recruiting base earlier in this thread, but there's definitely far more talent to be had in the state than in Wisconsin and Iowa.  And I don't think city/suburban kids view Champaign as a wasteland ... the campus, after all, teems with city/suburban kids.
But you're correct that, barring some family connection, nobody in the Chicago area grows up dreaming of playing for the state school. That's what generations of mediocrity combined with a long-term lack of program identity will do for you.


And that's why Illinois doesn't need to "get weird."  Just get a good coach.

Iowa hired Hayden Fry in 1979 and hired Kirk Ferentz when he retired.  Everyone knows what Iowa football is.  Wisconsin hired Barry Alvarez in 1990, and outside of a two year stint with Gary Andersen, has been run pretty much the same way since then with two of his assistants.  Everyone knows what Wisconsin football is. 

Both Fry and Alvarez knew that how you build long-term success is by looking at what the high schools are producing in their main recruiting areas.  It's not some spread option stuff.  It is run of the mill, power football.  All of that feeds their programs.  Someone said earlier that Illinois cannot "out Big Ten the Big Ten."  But that's exactly what Iowa and Wisconsin have done!  (Michigan State too.)

Getting weird may bring Illinois some wins early.  But I just don't think it's sustainable.  Purdue did that with Joe Tiller.  It worked pretty good for awhile - until Joe was pushed out and the program has sucked since then.

jsglow

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Re: 2018 College Football Thread
« Reply #124 on: October 30, 2018, 11:00:38 AM »

And that's why Illinois doesn't need to "get weird."  Just get a good coach.

Iowa hired Hayden Fry in 1979 and hired Kirk Ferentz when he retired.  Everyone knows what Iowa football is.  Wisconsin hired Barry Alvarez in 1990, and outside of a two year stint with Gary Andersen, has been run pretty much the same way since then with two of his assistants.  Everyone knows what Wisconsin football is. 

Both Fry and Alvarez knew that how you build long-term success is by looking at what the high schools are producing in their main recruiting areas.  It's not some spread option stuff.  It is run of the mill, power football.  All of that feeds their programs.  Someone said earlier that Illinois cannot "out Big Ten the Big Ten."  But that's exactly what Iowa and Wisconsin have done!  (Michigan State too.)

Getting weird may bring Illinois some wins early.  But I just don't think it's sustainable.  Purdue did that with Joe Tiller.  It worked pretty good for awhile - until Joe was pushed out and the program has sucked since then.

This.