Respect

[Lennys Tap]

Thanks to all for an interesting discussion. The subject was Respect and posters kept it that way. We come from different generations, backgrounds and experiences but when the tone is respectful I learn things here.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Thanks to all for an interesting discussion. The subject was Respect and posters kept it that way. We come from different generations, backgrounds and experiences but when the tone is respectful I learn things here.

Agree Lenny.

As a side note, in an early post of yours you ascribed a position to me that did not and do not take.

[Lennys Tap]

Agree Lenny.

As a side note, in an early post of yours you ascribed a position to me that did not and do not take.

Apologies.

[dgies9156]

IIRC, CK didn't do anything that violated the NFL's rules.

If I spoke up on an issue or issues that were contrary to my Company's corporate values and objectives and offensive to our customers, I'd be disciplined, or worse. The fact is that once we are employed there not only is a set of rules but also a set of customs and values that are unwritten but you don't cross because the implication on the Company's shareholders or stakeholders is too significant.

Not every modicum of good sense is written down. Sometimes, you just have to use your good judgment. Life is not the government -- sometimes you have to act without a formal set of policies, procedures and rules to lean on!

I'll say again, I don't have a problem with Mr. Kapernick expressing his views. What he did was threaten a stream of revenue and profitability to the National Football League by using a National Football League venue to express views that were contrary to maximizing National Football League shareholder wealth.

[Jockey]

losing the fringe customer with a move that solidifies, and/or grows, your brand loyalty with Gen Z and Millennials?  you do that every day.

Plus, the only market you lose those fringe customers in is the US not the global market.

exactly. They ran all of the numbers on this before doing it.

[Lennys Tap]

losing the fringe customer with a move that solidifies, and/or grows, your brand loyalty with Gen Z and Millennials?  you do that every day.

Plus, the only market you lose those fringe customers in is the US not the global market.

100% agree. This was a calculated marketing move, one that makes sense for Nike.

[MU82]

We are having this conversation. That is one sign that what Kaepernick did is making thoughtful people think -- and even have a respectful conversation about an important, controversial subject.

The NFL has pledged tens of millions of dollars to social causes viewed as important to leading minority groups (mostly blacks) in the United States. That pledge didn't come until after what Kaepernick and other kneelers did.

The NFL attempted to enact new rules forbidding anthem protests but backed down and agreed to discuss the issue more with the players -- Trump and his faux patriotism be damned.

Police brutality is being discussed more now than ever, and Kaepernick and the kneelers are one reason why.

Those who say Kaepernick's protests have "accomplished nothing" are obviously wrong.

As for him being an "imperfect messenger" ... well, sure. I mean, we have one pretty damn imperfect messenger sending out about 2 dozen incendiary (sometimes borderline treasonous) tweets  per day -- and he has a job even more important than an NFL QB.

MLK was an imperfect messenger, as has been discussed. So was Ali. So was JFK. So was Jefferson. Etc, etc, etc. Welcome to being human! Heck, many would argue that Jesus was an imperfect messenger, too!

[Dr. Blackheart]

^^^^
Ban des guzs

[GGGG]

If I spoke up on an issue or issues that were contrary to my Company's corporate values and objectives and offensive to our customers, I'd be disciplined, or worse. The fact is that once we are employed there not only is a set of rules but also a set of customs and values that are unwritten but you don't cross because the implication on the Company's shareholders or stakeholders is too significant.

Not every modicum of good sense is written down. Sometimes, you just have to use your good judgment. Life is not the government -- sometimes you have to act without a formal set of policies, procedures and rules to lean on!

I'll say again, I don't have a problem with Mr. Kapernick expressing his views. What he did was threaten a stream of revenue and profitability to the National Football League by using a National Football League venue to express views that were contrary to maximizing National Football League shareholder wealth.

He didn't threaten anyone's wealth.  Gimme a break.

And it doesn't matter what you get to do in your workplace.  He is a member of a union and subject to a collective bargaining agreement that doesn't require him to stand for the anthem.   

[JWags85]

MLK was an imperfect messenger, as has been discussed. So was Ali. So was JFK. So was Jefferson. Etc, etc, etc. Welcome to being human! Heck, many would argue that Jesus was an imperfect messenger, too!

One of the tried and true methods of attempting to discredit something you don't agree or believe in is complaining about delivery or method.  Which is almost always followed up with some form of "thats not my problem" when asking for an alternative suggestion.

[Billy Hoyle]

I've only witnessed one person stand for the national anthem when they are not at the event and it's my wife (actually 3 because now my kids do it too).  At home, at a bar, at friends houses, it doesn't matter she is standing and paying attention to the anthem.  She has absolutely no problem with athletes kneeling for it, or me not standing when not at the stadium, or me sitting for God Bless America.  I didn't know that was even a thing until i met her.

My wife, as a minority and "anchor baby" is very conflicted when it comes to the anthem.  Generally, we both stay in the concourse for the anthem but if we get to our seats she'll stand but that's it.  The first few times she was at a game after the election she started crying during the anthem considering what this country's leadership openly thought of people like here. She knows the US was a land of opportunity for her parents but also now there are many who tell her to "go back where you came from."

Her brother is in the Navy, currently stationed abroad, and supports Kaepernick's actions. One Vietnam vet I often attend games with also supports Kaepernick and his kneeling, but when we're at games together he asks that we just don't be disrespectful of others during the anthem. He's cool if I just keep my hands in my pockets during the anthem.

[Lighthouse 84]

He didn't threaten anyone's wealth.  Gimme a break.

And it doesn't matter what you get to do in your workplace.  He is a member of a union and subject to a collective bargaining agreement that doesn't require him to stand for the anthem.

True dat.  But he also isn't guaranteed to have a job if no one wants to hire him as a second string quarterback and first string distraction, which he would be.  Tim Tebow could probably have been on an NFL roster as a backup as well, but he's also a distraction that owners didn't want to deal with either. Maybe he should have filed suit too, hey?

[Billy Hoyle]

Tim Tebow could probably have been on an NFL roster as a backup as well, but he's also a distraction that owners didn't want to deal with either. Maybe he should have filed suit too, hey?

Tim Tebow has given multiple opportunities with other teams (Jets, Eagles, Pats) and twice lost out to Mark Sanchez. He only once beat a team over .500 and had a career passing percentage lower than Ryan Leaf and JaMarcus Russell. He was also given the opportunity to change positions to prolong his career and he refused.  Kap and Tebow are not comparable.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

True dat.  But he also isn't guaranteed to have a job if no one wants to hire him as a second string quarterback and first string distraction, which he would be.  Tim Tebow could probably have been on an NFL roster as a backup as well, but he's also a distraction that owners didn't want to deal with either. Maybe he should have filed suit too, hey?

Kaep should just play baseball.

[dgies9156]

He didn't threaten anyone's wealth.  Gimme a break.

And it doesn't matter what you get to do in your workplace.  He is a member of a union and subject to a collective bargaining agreement that doesn't require him to stand for the anthem.

Brother Sultan, the National Football League exists to maximize earnings to team owners. The teams within the league are investments, pure and simple. If Mr. Kaepernick (my apologies for the earlier mis-spellings) was able to maximize one or more team's earnings by holding a roster position, I assure you he would be on someone's roster.

It's called capitalism and it works!

Was an owner going to be in a poorhouse because Mr. Kaepernick was signed, with his progressive beliefs? Probably not. But when I say wealth was threatened, I mean that the ability to maximize cash flow and earnings from stadium revenue, television and ancillary merchandise was at risk because a certain segment of National Football League fan would refrain from watching games, thereby reducing television revenue; buying team merchandise; or, purchasing tickets and using stadium catering services.

How large a threat that would be is anyone's guess. It also is debatable whether Mr. Kaepernick's skills are sufficiently sharp to be a quarterback in the National Football League. Granted, his skills are probably greater than most of the quasi-professionals who played quarterback in the past half century for the Chicago Bears, but that is not a standard against which a professional should be measured.

[rocket surgeon]

     i had an assistant(note-past tense) who turned to me and said that she had a very dear friend who was fighting breast cancer and very typically, was loosing her hair during the chemo phase of treatment. she proceeded to tell me that she wanted to shave her head to be "in unity" with her during this very trying time of her friends life.  i did commended her for her loyalty, but then suggested to her(very strongly) that there may be a few other ways to honor her friend.  my sympathies were truly with her friend, but i could not allow my (ex)employee(s) to use my place of business to show everyone else that she "cared". 

  she is not, not with me anymore because of that issue, but think next crazy thought or move and you'll understand why i almost started cutting myself again

  am i against people fighting breast cancer because i "strongly" suggesting she NOT shave her head?  absolutely not.  i have had a number of friends and family members fight this fight.  if my assistant would have asked me if she could've worn a pink ribbon on her scrubs, maybe even with her friends name on it,  i could have considered that.  the head shaving thing, however, could generate more questions than answers.  the last thing i needed was for us having to explain to everyone who walks in to our office why i've got an employee looking like prymaat conehead

[mu03eng]

     i had an assistant(note-past tense) who turned to me and said that she had a very dear friend who was fighting breast cancer and very typically, was loosing her hair during the chemo phase of treatment. she proceeded to tell me that she wanted to shave her head to be "in unity" with her during this very trying time of her friends life.  i did commended her for her loyalty, but then suggested to her(very strongly) that there may be a few other ways to honor her friend.  my sympathies were truly with her friend, but i could not allow my (ex)employee(s) to use my place of business to show everyone else that she "cared". 

  she is not, not with me anymore because of that issue, but think next crazy thought or move and you'll understand why i almost started cutting myself again

  am i against people fighting breast cancer because i "strongly" suggesting she NOT shave her head?  absolutely not.  i have had a number of friends and family members fight this fight.  if my assistant would have asked me if she could've worn a pink ribbon on her scrubs, maybe even with her friends name on it,  i could have considered that.  the head shaving thing, however, could generate more questions than answers.  the last thing i needed was for us having to explain to everyone who walks in to our office why i've got an employee looking like prymaat conehead

I'd say this is more of a them problem and not a you/her problem. Honestly, I have no idea why it would negatively impact your business to have a woman with a shaved head as your admin. What if it wasn't for solidarity, what if she just got too darn hot in the summers and wanted to keep cool? Is it the solidarity or is it the fact that a woman was not conforming to gender stereotypes (oh look it's the freaky bald girl)?

[tower912]

As one who has shaved his head a few times for friends who have cancer, I disagree completely with your stance, RS.   

[GGGG]

     i had an assistant(note-past tense) who turned to me and said that she had a very dear friend who was fighting breast cancer and very typically, was loosing her hair during the chemo phase of treatment. she proceeded to tell me that she wanted to shave her head to be "in unity" with her during this very trying time of her friends life.  i did commended her for her loyalty, but then suggested to her(very strongly) that there may be a few other ways to honor her friend.  my sympathies were truly with her friend, but i could not allow my (ex)employee(s) to use my place of business to show everyone else that she "cared". 

  she is not, not with me anymore because of that issue, but think next crazy thought or move and you'll understand why i almost started cutting myself again

  am i against people fighting breast cancer because i "strongly" suggesting she NOT shave her head?  absolutely not.  i have had a number of friends and family members fight this fight.  if my assistant would have asked me if she could've worn a pink ribbon on her scrubs, maybe even with her friends name on it,  i could have considered that.  the head shaving thing, however, could generate more questions than answers.  the last thing i needed was for us having to explain to everyone who walks in to our office why i've got an employee looking like prymaat conehead

You wouldn't let an employee shave her head?  I mean...why?  Even if it isn't about supporting her friend with cancer, why do you care what their hairstyle is?

[Spotcheck Billy]

     i had an assistant(note-past tense) who turned to me and said that she had a very dear friend who was fighting breast cancer and very typically, was loosing her hair during the chemo phase of treatment. she proceeded to tell me that she wanted to shave her head to be "in unity" with her during this very trying time of her friends life.  i did commended her for her loyalty, but then suggested to her(very strongly) that there may be a few other ways to honor her friend.  my sympathies were truly with her friend, but i could not allow my (ex)employee(s) to use my place of business to show everyone else that she "cared". 

  she is not, not with me anymore because of that issue, but think next crazy thought or move and you'll understand why i almost started cutting myself again

  am i against people fighting breast cancer because i "strongly" suggesting she NOT shave her head?  absolutely not.  i have had a number of friends and family members fight this fight.  if my assistant would have asked me if she could've worn a pink ribbon on her scrubs, maybe even with her friends name on it,  i could have considered that.  the head shaving thing, however, could generate more questions than answers.  the last thing i needed was for us having to explain to everyone who walks in to our office why i've got an employee looking like prymaat conehead

This would be funny if you are bald.

[Jay Bee]

Shave your head? That's nothing compared to what ZFB did to show solidarity with his buddy.

[dgies9156]

You wouldn't let an employee shave her head?  I mean...why?  Even if it isn't about supporting her friend with cancer, why do you care what their hairstyle is?

Brother Sultan, I agree with you on this one. Very few employers any more are likely to say a hairstyle, beard or mustache or most clothing is inappropriate unless the employee is market facing. Some may have very strong opinions on the look a bald woman, but by-and-large, that's irrevelant.

I understand regulating behavior and establishing standards of appearance for customer facing employees. But it was not clear whether this employee was market facing and whether the baldness would affect her ability to do her job. I'm guessing it's no.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

     i had an assistant(note-past tense) who turned to me and said that she had a very dear friend who was fighting breast cancer and very typically, was loosing her hair during the chemo phase of treatment. she proceeded to tell me that she wanted to shave her head to be "in unity" with her during this very trying time of her friends life.  i did commended her for her loyalty, but then suggested to her(very strongly) that there may be a few other ways to honor her friend.  my sympathies were truly with her friend, but i could not allow my (ex)employee(s) to use my place of business to show everyone else that she "cared". 

  she is not, not with me anymore because of that issue, but think next crazy thought or move and you'll understand why i almost started cutting myself again

  am i against people fighting breast cancer because i "strongly" suggesting she NOT shave her head?  absolutely not.  i have had a number of friends and family members fight this fight.  if my assistant would have asked me if she could've worn a pink ribbon on her scrubs, maybe even with her friends name on it,  i could have considered that.  the head shaving thing, however, could generate more questions than answers.  the last thing i needed was for us having to explain to everyone who walks in to our office why i've got an employee looking like prymaat conehead

So it sounds like you are okay in this instance because she asked your opinion and you gave it. But Rocket Man, if she had shaved her head and you disciplined her in any way for it....she would own your practice and you'd be on the street right now. Unless you make your employees sign some sort of uniform policy...and you better make sure that men also are not allowed to shave their heads.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

So it sounds like you are okay in this instance because she asked your opinion and you gave it. But Rocket Man, if she had shaved her head and you disciplined her in any way for it....she would own your practice and you'd be on the street right now. Unless you make your employees sign some sort of uniform policy...and you better make sure that men also are not allowed to shave their heads.

Or let women have moustaches, if a no facial hair policy.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Shave your head? That's nothing compared to what ZFB did to show solidarity with his gay buddy.

(Yh),aina.