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Author Topic: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted  (Read 31177 times)

MU82

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #100 on: August 21, 2018, 03:00:04 PM »
chicosnomatta
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WarriorDad

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #101 on: August 21, 2018, 10:01:01 PM »
And who cares?  It is their right to choose the path they want to go.  And ultimately that is on the coach for not recruiting better and filling the void having all those seniors leave.  He would have known for 4 years his team would be very senior heavy and could have brought in some traditional transfers or some grad transfers to fill the leadership void of all those seniors.  That is college coaching roster management 101...

Also, why does this theory not prove out in the grad transfer market (see Brew's post above)?  They are essentially free agents and a lot of them could be good players on better teams, but the majority of them tend to stay.

That depends, kids get hurt, kids leave early for the pros.  Schools can find themselves in tough situations and that makes it easier for a kid to leave.  The majority tend to stay because of the one year sitting requirement, I'm not so sure the post above is thorough with all the facts that he stated.


I don't know.  And I don't care.

Some care, some don't.  These are opinions.  We all having fun still? Some sound angry.


What a nut.

Still struggling, I see  https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=54934.msg1032498#msg1032498   Your logic then was impeccable.  As a reminder, a 49ers fan growing up a fan of Montana as the greatest can't think Brady is the greatest? That's what you said here.


The much bigger "fear" is that the coach who won with that senior-laden team uses his success to bolt to a different university. It doesn't matter that he has 5 years left on his contract or that he promised the junior repeatedly that he would be there "for the duration" ... he'll leave, and he won't feel one iota guilty about it. And then the junior, who liked the school but loved the coach more, will also leave. And whether or not the junior stays or leaves, you have a total rebuild of 4-5 years or more.

Give the kids the same freedom enjoyed by the adults who profit off their labors. That's all I'm looking for.


I support that if the coach leaves the players can leave.  If a coach leaves the contract buyout has to be paid.  Are you suggesting if the player leaves he pays back the school for the scholarship?  There is a penalty for a coach leaving, it is almost always monetary, he doesn't get to walk away without paying that penalty. 



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WarriorDad

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #102 on: August 21, 2018, 10:20:32 PM »
Again, we already have "free agency" in the form of grad transfers. Yet most players who are grad transfer eligible don't use it. And most players who do use it transfer down in search of more playing time. So why would it be different if expanded?

How many players are graduate eligible to transfer?  I do not know the answer, maybe someone does.  There appears to be a reason why a number of the high profile mid level coaches have a concern about this.  Usually those concerns do not occur in a bubble.

The person above shared some examples, but I went to the graduate transfer list today and it feels like many of them made upward movement.  The list was more extensive because it is more recent.

Makai Mason from Yale to Baylor
Evan Bourdeaux from Dartmouth to Purdue
Zach Hankis from Ferris State to Xavier
Miles Reynolds from Pacific to Oklahoma
David Nichols from Albany to Florida State
Kyle Castlin from Columbia to Xavier
Ryan Taylor from Evansville to Northwestern
Keenan Gumbs from Schreiner to Liberty
Ryan Welage from San Jose State to Xavier
Tarin Smith from Duquense to UCONN
Aaron Calixte from Maine to Oklahoma
Novak Topalovic from Idaho State to Utah
Austin Nehls from Central Connecticut State to Ball State
Ryan Luther from Pittsburgh to Arizona
Zach Johnson from FGCU to Miami (FL)
Josephy Chartouny from Fordham to Marquette
Mike Cunningham from South Carolina Upstate to Oklahoma State
Prentiss Nixon from Colorado State to Iowa State
Keyshawn Woods from Wake Forest to Ohio State
Justin Coleman from Samford to Arizona
Wyatt Walker from Samford to North Carolina State
Christian Cunningham from Samford to Louisville
Femi Olujobi from North Carolina A&T to DePaul
Ikenna Smart from Buffalo to Wake Forest
Torry Johnson from Northern Arizona to Wake Forest
Evan Fitzner from St. Mary's to Indiana
Javan White from Oral Roberts to Clemson
Joe Cremo from Albany to Villanova
Michael Gilmore from FGCU to VCU
Eric Lockett from FIU to NC State
Sidy N'Dir from New Mexico State to Pittsburgh
Brock Stull from Milwaukee to Minnesota
Shea Feehan from Eureka to Evansville
Aaron Menzies from Seattle to St. Mary's
Tramamaine Isabell from Drexel to St. Louis
Christian Mekowulu from Tennessee State to Texas A&M
Khwan Fore from Richmond to Louisville
Connor Cashaw from Rice to Creighton
Reid Travis from Stanford to Kentucky
Akoy Agua from SMU to Louisville
Jarrett Givens from Adams State to Austin Peay
Ehab Amin from TAMU-CC to Oregon
Adonis De La Rosa from Kent State to Illinois
Geno Crandall from North Dakota to Gonzaga
Stone Gettings from Cornell to Arizona

Probably can argue with a few whether the are upward, but in those that are close they are moving to a much more difficult conference and level of play night in and night out.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 10:22:11 PM by WarriorDad »
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MU82

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #103 on: August 21, 2018, 10:26:28 PM »
I support that if the coach leaves the players can leave.  If a coach leaves the contract buyout has to be paid.  Are you suggesting if the player leaves he pays back the school for the scholarship?  There is a penalty for a coach leaving, it is almost always monetary, he doesn't get to walk away without paying that penalty.

I support that if the player wants to leave he can leave without being punished for it ... because he is a human being and he should be free to pursue his life's dream -- just as the scholarship trombonist could do.

As for paying back the school that loses the player, sure ... they can take it out of the salary he gets at the new school. After all, that's how it works for the coach who leaves. Of course, first the schools will have to pay their employees (athletes) salaries.

And as for whether the player should get to leave without penalty if the coach leaves, that's the biggest no-brainer change they should make.

I'm reasonable so I'd even let them stipulate that the player can't just follow the coach to his new school because that would be too squirmy.

So yes, I'm a man who's willing to compromise; I'd be asking the athletes to give up a little freedom for the right to be (mostly) free agents.
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WarriorDad

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #104 on: August 21, 2018, 10:27:48 PM »
I support that if the player wants to leave he can leave without being punished for it ... because he is a human being and he should be free to pursue his life's dream -- just as the scholarship trombonist could do.

As for paying back the school that loses the player, sure ... they can take it out of the salary he gets at the new school. After all, that's how it works for the coach who leaves. Of course, first the schools will have to pay their employees (athletes) salaries.

And as for whether the player should get to leave without penalty if the coach leaves, that's the biggest no-brainer change they should make.

I'm reasonable so I'd even let them stipulate that the player can't just follow the coach to his new school because that would be too squirmy.

So yes, I'm a man who's willing to compromise; I'd be asking the athletes to give up a little freedom for the right to be (mostly) free agents.

But what if the trombonist is allowed to leave to follow the trombone teacher to a new school?  Isn't a basic human right?   ;)

If I felt my child for a second was being exploited when they played, I might agree with you.  That was never the case.  In my view it isn't the case for 99% of student athletes.  The coaches have a legitimate concern in my view.
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WarriorDad

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #105 on: August 21, 2018, 10:36:54 PM »
Baseball experienced none of the "horrors" that were predicted.

This sounds like an opinion positioned as fact, which you have indicated you don't care for.  What horrors were predicted in which none of them came true?  There were many positive things that came with free agency in baseball, but not all were.  The reason your use of this comparison bothers me is baseball or all pro sports teams have players under contract, they know when free agency is coming. What you propose in college basketball would give coaches and universities no way of knowing or planning. With no disincentive to leave, a team could lose 5 or more guys in a single season and be completely blindsided. How is that good for the sport?

Let's switch over to the NBA, is there competitive balance there with free agency, or super team dominance?  In my view that is the worry with college basketball.  You have a great player like DWade that loses in the first round of the NCAAs, a stacked team comes along the following year and says switch to us and win a title or risk that you may or may not go far with your current team.  You let another school find the diamond in the rough and then pluck him.  Not good for the sport.
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brewcity77

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #106 on: August 21, 2018, 10:43:14 PM »
So because you produce a list of 44 grad transfers you think that's definitive? Hundreds more didn't transfer. How about going through team by team to see how many players with redshirts stayed put? Oh wait, it's easier to use cop out anecdotal evidence with no shred of accuracy.

Also, assuming you used grad transfer tracker, they listed what, 121 players? So less than 37% transferred up? And that only includes committed players, every year there are many more that go down a division or two, or simply leave to pursue other options.

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MU82

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #107 on: August 21, 2018, 11:54:10 PM »
This sounds like an opinion positioned as fact, which you have indicated you don't care for.  What horrors were predicted in which none of them came true?  There were many positive things that came with free agency in baseball, but not all were.  The reason your use of this comparison bothers me is baseball or all pro sports teams have players under contract, they know when free agency is coming. What you propose in college basketball would give coaches and universities no way of knowing or planning. With no disincentive to leave, a team could lose 5 or more guys in a single season and be completely blindsided. How is that good for the sport?

Let's switch over to the NBA, is there competitive balance there with free agency, or super team dominance?  In my view that is the worry with college basketball.  You have a great player like DWade that loses in the first round of the NCAAs, a stacked team comes along the following year and says switch to us and win a title or risk that you may or may not go far with your current team.  You let another school find the diamond in the rough and then pluck him.  Not good for the sport.

Free agency has been a good thing for every sport.

More importantly, free agency is a condition every free human being should enjoy in his or her work.

Coaches would adjust, as they always have. They adjusted to kids leaving for the pros through hardship; they adjusted to kids leaving for the pros without needing to prove financial hardship; they adjusted to kids going preps-to-pros; they adjusted kids going 1-and-done; they adjusted to the grad-transfer rule; they adjusted to the prop-48 rule; they adjusted to the 3-point line; they adjusted to the shot clock; they adjusted to dunks being outlawed and then brought back; etc etc etc. That's why the coaches get paid the big bucks. Maybe it's why they also get to enjoy unfettered free agency ... even if they have 1,000-year contracts.

Your doom-and-gloom hypotheticals have zero basis in fact.

For a guy who doesn't know what a chicos is, c2, you sure have the act down well: You're starting to sound desperate to prove you are "right."

All IMHO, of course!

So because you produce a list of 44 grad transfers you think that's definitive? Hundreds more didn't transfer. How about going through team by team to see how many players with redshirts stayed put? Oh wait, it's easier to use cop out anecdotal evidence with no shred of accuracy.

Also, assuming you used grad transfer tracker, they listed what, 121 players? So less than 37% transferred up? And that only includes committed players, every year there are many more that go down a division or two, or simply leave to pursue other options.

The worst thing about picking this hill to die on is you're standing in a valley.

This. (Also IMHO.)

The hilarious thing is that c2 is willing to die on this hill even though this hill probably will never exist. "Transfers must sit out a year" is the NCAA's version of "From my cold, dead hands."
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #108 on: August 22, 2018, 12:11:19 AM »
How many players are graduate eligible to transfer?  I do not know the answer, maybe someone does.  There appears to be a reason why a number of the high profile mid level coaches have a concern about this.  Usually those concerns do not occur in a bubble.

The person above shared some examples, but I went to the graduate transfer list today and it feels like many of them made upward movement.  The list was more extensive because it is more recent.

Makai Mason from Yale to Baylor
Evan Bourdeaux from Dartmouth to Purdue
Zach Hankis from Ferris State to Xavier
Miles Reynolds from Pacific to Oklahoma
David Nichols from Albany to Florida State
Kyle Castlin from Columbia to Xavier
Ryan Taylor from Evansville to Northwestern
Keenan Gumbs from Schreiner to Liberty
Ryan Welage from San Jose State to Xavier
Tarin Smith from Duquense to UCONN
Aaron Calixte from Maine to Oklahoma
Novak Topalovic from Idaho State to Utah
Austin Nehls from Central Connecticut State to Ball State
Ryan Luther from Pittsburgh to Arizona
Zach Johnson from FGCU to Miami (FL)
Josephy Chartouny from Fordham to Marquette
Mike Cunningham from South Carolina Upstate to Oklahoma State
Prentiss Nixon from Colorado State to Iowa State
Keyshawn Woods from Wake Forest to Ohio State
Justin Coleman from Samford to Arizona
Wyatt Walker from Samford to North Carolina State
Christian Cunningham from Samford to Louisville
Femi Olujobi from North Carolina A&T to DePaul
Ikenna Smart from Buffalo to Wake Forest
Torry Johnson from Northern Arizona to Wake Forest
Evan Fitzner from St. Mary's to Indiana
Javan White from Oral Roberts to Clemson
Joe Cremo from Albany to Villanova
Michael Gilmore from FGCU to VCU
Eric Lockett from FIU to NC State
Sidy N'Dir from New Mexico State to Pittsburgh
Brock Stull from Milwaukee to Minnesota
Shea Feehan from Eureka to Evansville
Aaron Menzies from Seattle to St. Mary's
Tramamaine Isabell from Drexel to St. Louis
Christian Mekowulu from Tennessee State to Texas A&M
Khwan Fore from Richmond to Louisville
Connor Cashaw from Rice to Creighton
Reid Travis from Stanford to Kentucky
Akoy Agua from SMU to Louisville
Jarrett Givens from Adams State to Austin Peay
Ehab Amin from TAMU-CC to Oregon
Adonis De La Rosa from Kent State to Illinois
Geno Crandall from North Dakota to Gonzaga
Stone Gettings from Cornell to Arizona

Probably can argue with a few whether the are upward, but in those that are close they are moving to a much more difficult conference and level of play night in and night out.

To answer your first question, remember the hundreds of traditional transfers that happen every year? The vast majority of them are grad transfer eligible once they reach their fifth year. Sure, some either don't have the academics, go pro, or leave basketball all together, but those are offset by all the players who graduate in three years, redshirt for reasons other than transfer, not to mention all the players from lower divisions who could choose to grad transfer up.


As for your long list, this is a fun game.

Eugene Artison from Tulsa to University of Science and Arts of Oklahoma
Larry Austin Jr from Vandy to Central Michigan
Jake Babic from App State to TAMU-CC
Djery Baptiste from Vandy to UMass
Chancellor Barnard from Loyola to Binghamton
Brett Barney from Wichita State to Omaha
Justice Bartley from Virginia to Maryland Eastern Shore
Wil Barthurst from Cornell to UAB
Bradeon Bayer from Syracuse to Siena
Freddy Bitondo from Sam Houston State to Fort Hayes State
Josh Boutte from Sam Houston State to Angelo State
Armani Branch from VMI to Norfolk State
Tre Campbell from Georgetown to South Carolina
Robert Cartwright fom Stanford to UC Irvine
Schadrac Casimir from Iona to FGCU
Brandon Chauca from California to Enderun College
Jadon Cohee from Southern Utah to University of British Columbia
Jeremy Combs from LSU to Texas Southern
Jake Connor from Utah to Westminister
Chris Darrington form Tennesee to Toledo
Ar'Mond Davis from Alabama to UC Santa Barbara
Gerad Davies from Northern Colorado to New Mexico Highlands
Eddie Davis III Southern Miss to Hartford
Ibrahima Diallo Rutgers to Manhattan
Dan Dwyer from Penn to Hofstra
Abrian Edwards jr from Sam Houston State to William Penn
Brady Ellingson from Iowa to Drake
Alex Ennis from Morgan State to Southern
Michael Finke from Illinois to Grand Canyon
Davante Fitzgerald from Minnesota to Stephen F Austin
Phillip Flory from Seton Hall to Albany (not a grad transfer but was known to be immediately eligible due to walk on status)
Devonte Fuller from Western Carolina to Miles
Jeff Garrett from Northern Kentucky to LSU-Shreveport
Bryan Gee from Longwood to Young Harris
Chaz Glotta from Northern Colorado to Maryville
Khalil Gracey from Morgan State to Rochester College
Solomon Hainna from Evansville to UT Rio Grande Valley
Jared Harper from Fairfield to Dominican
Ronnie Harrell Jr from Creighton to Denver
Jontray Harris from Oral Roberts to UL-Monroe
Terry Harris from Eastern Michigan to North Carolina A&T
Jay Harvey from FIU to South Dakota
Byron Hawkins from Murray State to Bryant
Brent Hibbits from Michigan to Unknown (but he can't transfer down from Michigan)
Perris Hicks from Fordham to Cal State San Marcos

There, 45 to match your 45....and I didn't even make it past the Hs. I have most of the alphabet to go. Also, one of your examples wasn't a grad transfer, Prentiss Nixon has to sit next season. Plus, three of your examples were from the Ivy League. Ivy League rules forbid graduate students from participating in athletics so they literally have to transfer. Stone Gettings also isn't a true grad transfer. He will be redshirting next season while on scholarship at Cornell in order to preserve his eligibility to play a season at Arizona but graduate with a Cornell degree. So he has to redshirt in order to transfer.

I'm sure you didn't put every grad transfer who moved up on your list (in fact I know a few off the top of my head that you missed). Feel free to keep adding, I have a lot more examples of lateral and downward moves.

I told you before, I have been tracking the grad transfer market extensively for the last four years. Clearly a nerd with too much time on his hands. You can trust me when I tell you that most players who are grad transfer eligible don't take advantage and most who do are lateral or downward moves. I'm not lying.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 12:16:49 AM by TAMU Eagle »
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WarriorDad

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #109 on: August 22, 2018, 05:06:31 AM »

I told you before, I have been tracking the grad transfer market extensively for the last four years. Clearly a nerd with too much time on his hands. You can trust me when I tell you that most players who are grad transfer eligible don't take advantage and most who do are lateral or downward moves. I'm not lying.

I never suggested you were. My comments were regarding Brewtown, his list was short but older and not updated.  I do believe you.

Free agency has been a good thing for every sport. 


Some fans would disagree with you if you live in a small market and are a fan of a small market team. But your opinion is respected.

Coaches would adjust, as they always have. They adjusted to kids leaving for the pros through hardship; they adjusted to kids leaving for the pros without needing to prove financial hardship; they adjusted to kids going preps-to-pros; they adjusted kids going 1-and-done; they adjusted to the grad-transfer rule; they adjusted to the prop-48 rule; they adjusted to the 3-point line; they adjusted to the shot clock; they adjusted to dunks being outlawed and then brought back; etc etc etc. That's why the coaches get paid the big bucks. Maybe it's why they also get to enjoy unfettered free agency ... even if they have 1,000-year contracts.

Yes, they will.  Whether it is good for college basketball was my question. In my opinion it is not, will hurt mid level programs, encourage tampering and other behaviors that is bad for basketball, but impossible to prove until free agency happens.

Your doom-and-gloom hypotheticals have zero basis in fact.



For a guy who doesn't know what a chicos is, c2, you sure have the act down well: You're starting to sound desperate to prove you are "right."

All IMHO, of course!

It is an opinion, shared by those coaches I provided as references to similar opinions.  I was going to say the same thing about some of you guys that you are desperate to be prove yourself right.  Time to move on, we have all said our bits and I respect yours please respect mine.

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brewcity77

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #110 on: August 22, 2018, 05:54:22 AM »
I never suggested you were. My comments were regarding Brewtown, his list was short but older and not updated.  I do believe you.

So your answer was to go to a grad transfer website, cherry pick about a third of the listed grad transfers, and hope no one would call you on your BS? Because you had to know as you were taking the time to post those names it was already BS.

It is an opinion, shared by those coaches I provided as references to similar opinions.  I was going to say the same thing about some of you guys that you are desperate to be prove yourself right.

It would be a lot less necessary if you weren't so desperate to post things that are clearly false and inaccurate.
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MU82

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #111 on: August 22, 2018, 01:20:28 PM »

Some fans would disagree with you if you live in a small market and are a fan of a small market team. But your opinion is respected.

Time to move on, we have all said our bits and I respect yours please respect mine.

Since either NY or LA team last won it all, teams from Houston, KC and St. Louis have won championships. It wasn't easy. They had to be creative and smart, and they had to endure losing first. But they did it. Plenty of other teams that would be defined as small market have been quite competitive in that time, too, including Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Tampa, Cleveland, etc.

But sure, I get it.

And I appreciate your respectful tone in your response.

Have a good one ... till next time.
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brewcity77

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #112 on: August 22, 2018, 06:44:46 PM »
Wait, Houston is a small market? 4th largest in population and 10th in media market size?
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MU82

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #113 on: August 22, 2018, 06:59:02 PM »
Wait, Houston is a small market? 4th largest in population and 10th in media market size?

Yeah ... I confess that I never know what a "small market" is any more. There are some who think the White Sox are small-market. And Detroit. And San Antonio. And San Diego. And a few others that are pretty darn big.
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WarriorDad

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #114 on: August 22, 2018, 11:31:15 PM »
So your answer was to go to a grad transfer website, cherry pick about a third of the listed grad transfers, and hope no one would call you on your BS? Because you had to know as you were taking the time to post those names it was already BS.

It would be a lot less necessary if you weren't so desperate to post things that are clearly false and inaccurate.

I was upfront that I went to the website and named it.  I was upfront that I found more than what you originally had listed, but stated it was because the list was more up to date.  I didn't list all of those that moved up, but most by my definition.   No cherry picking or hiding anything or why would I reveal where I went and what I was writing?   You will have to show me where I made the claim that most were upward or made a factual statement, because I said these were my opinions.  Some coaches agree with me, some fans do not.  That's ok, it is all good to have some conversation.

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WarriorDad

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #115 on: August 22, 2018, 11:56:58 PM »
Since either NY or LA team last won it all, teams from Houston, KC and St. Louis have won championships. It wasn't easy. They had to be creative and smart, and they had to endure losing first. But they did it. Plenty of other teams that would be defined as small market have been quite competitive in that time, too, including Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Tampa, Cleveland, etc.

But sure, I get it.

And I appreciate your respectful tone in your response.

Have a good one ... till next time.

That would seem to suggest that only winning it all is a definition of success or competitive?  Maybe you are not saying that, but if New York was in the playoffs most years while some other teams were rarely in it, but happened to win the whole thing in a give year that wipes out all the years they weren't competitive?   LA has made it to the playoffs 17 of 29 times since they won it all.  NYY made it 5 of 8 seasons since they won it, and likely 6 out of 9.  Both teams still successful.  For comparison, the A's won it one year earlier than the Dodgers and have been back only 10 times since.  The Pirates have been to only 6 playoffs in nearly 40 years.  The Angels never made the playoffs in their history prior to free agency, but 10 times since.   The Cubs went decades without making a single playoff series, but free agency helped us immensely.  Big spenders correlate to better performances on the average, while the lower funded teams on average struggle more often. Is this good for competitive balance?

Marvin Miller thought all-out free agency was a bad idea, in other words each year every player could switch.  He cut a deal with the owners that prevented that and instead free agency was triggered in one of two ways: 1) contract expired (2) 6 years of club service.   

What college basketball would have is all-out free agency.  If Marvin Miller thought it was bad, it probably was.  In my opinion.

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Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #116 on: August 23, 2018, 04:29:17 AM »
Again, we already have "free agency" in the form of grad transfers. Yet most players who are grad transfer eligible don't use it. And most players who do use it transfer down in search of more playing time. So why would it be different if expanded?

Essentially it could open up the recruiting process to be annual. That is different - more players & better talent with annual ability to move.

The current recruitment process stinks with corruption, money and kids being steered places by people with other interest (shoe companies - agents - etc).  Why would that change in a new system where everyone is available annually? 

Again I think there is a way to design it that could be more favorable for kids than today’s model - but agree with “not Chico’s” that there are implications & risks to the broader game/product that change needs to account for. 
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 05:19:24 AM by Frenns Liquor Depot »

brewcity77

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #117 on: August 23, 2018, 06:38:16 AM »
I didn't list all of those that moved up, but most by my definition.

So roughly one in three is most by your definition?

No cherry picking or hiding anything or why would I reveal where I went and what I was writing?

When you only post those that move up, that is cherry picking. You literally did exactly that.

You will have to show me where I made the claim that most were upward or made a factual statement, because I said these were my opinions.

I don't have to look further than this post. The very post you deny it you also did the thing you deny. I even bolded it for you above so you can see.

Or does that not count because by "your definition" 36% is a majority?
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Galway Eagle

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #118 on: August 23, 2018, 06:45:26 AM »
Wait as I'm reading this I can't help but wonder are people on here saying transfer whenever to play immediately and get paid?
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Jockey

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #119 on: August 23, 2018, 11:25:26 AM »


I told you before, I have been tracking the grad transfer market extensively for the last four years. Clearly a nerd with too much time on his hands. You can trust me when I tell you that most players who are grad transfer eligible don't take advantage and most who do are lateral or downward moves. I'm not lying.

Referring to the players who move up to a better school - isn't that a good thing? Meant rhetorically, of course, as I agree totally with your post. Isn't bettering (or at least trying to better) one's lot in life the reason to attend college in the first place?

brewcity77

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #120 on: August 23, 2018, 12:21:41 PM »
Referring to the players who move up to a better school - isn't that a good thing? Meant rhetorically, of course, as I agree totally with your post. Isn't bettering (or at least trying to better) one's lot in life the reason to attend college in the first place?

Not TAMU, but I'd argue it all is. If you move up for a better opportunity, great! If you move down for more available playing time, great! If you move laterally for the right fit, great! If you are happy and stay put, great!

Honestly, anyone against this is thinking about the coaches first and kids second. Hard for me to get too upset for guys making 6-7 figures.
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MU82

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #121 on: August 23, 2018, 10:38:02 PM »
That would seem to suggest that only winning it all is a definition of success or competitive?  Maybe you are not saying that, but if New York was in the playoffs most years while some other teams were rarely in it, but happened to win the whole thing in a give year that wipes out all the years they weren't competitive?   LA has made it to the playoffs 17 of 29 times since they won it all.  NYY made it 5 of 8 seasons since they won it, and likely 6 out of 9.  Both teams still successful.  For comparison, the A's won it one year earlier than the Dodgers and have been back only 10 times since.  The Pirates have been to only 6 playoffs in nearly 40 years.  The Angels never made the playoffs in their history prior to free agency, but 10 times since.   The Cubs went decades without making a single playoff series, but free agency helped us immensely.  Big spenders correlate to better performances on the average, while the lower funded teams on average struggle more often. Is this good for competitive balance?

Marvin Miller thought all-out free agency was a bad idea, in other words each year every player could switch.  He cut a deal with the owners that prevented that and instead free agency was triggered in one of two ways: 1) contract expired (2) 6 years of club service.   

What college basketball would have is all-out free agency.  If Marvin Miller thought it was bad, it probably was.  In my opinion.

Marvin Miller's stance had absolutely nothing to do with his belief that unfettered free agency would be bad for the game.

He was an economist, and he thought that total, unfettered free agency might drive down player salaries because too many free agents might enter the market at once.

He was all about increasing compensation for the players. Again, it had ZERO to do with it being a "bad idea" for MLB.

Once he realized a few years later that free agency was A-OK, he worked to loosen and loosen and loosen the free agency rules.

But nice try, c2!

The rest of your post means little to me. Baseball, like all sports, is cyclical. Despite having a bazillion dollars, the Cubs were losers for decades. Mets, mostly losers. San Fran, mostly losers. Etc. The Cardinals, meanwhile, have mostly won. Even the Pirates had a great run a few years back, as did the Royals. Baseball's problems have nothing to do with competitive balance. The game is too slow and boring. IMHO.

Again, you're trying really hard to "win" here, buddy ... even after you said you were done. But that's OK. You be you.

And again, we've wasted a lot of time here because I'm not holding my breath for NCAA basketball players to be granted unfettered free agency in my lifetime. The power brokers all have your back as they make sure they keep their fiefdom intact.

Don't worry. Unfettered free agency is reserved for the big-money coaches you have sided with.

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #122 on: August 24, 2018, 08:12:55 AM »
Since free agency came to MLB, only two teams (Nats and Mariners) haven't made the World Series.  19 of MLB's 30 teams have made it since 2000.

Smart teams that draft and invest wisely have repeatedly shown that they can put winning teams on the field.  Moreso over the last decade or so.  Do larger teams have an advantage in free agency?  Of course.  Has it been bad for baseball?  Hardly.  And I think fans agree!  The top 41 seasons in terms of per game attendance have all occurred since free agency was implemented.

"Not Chicos" is very similar to "Actual Chicos" in that he over-romanticizes things in the past. 

WarriorDad

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #123 on: August 24, 2018, 09:38:20 AM »
So roughly one in three is most by your definition?

When you only post those that move up, that is cherry picking. You literally did exactly that.

I don't have to look further than this post. The very post you deny it you also did the thing you deny. I even bolded it for you above so you can see.

Or does that not count because by "your definition" 36% is a majority?

No, I used the word most to describe those I thought went up a level.  I list most that fit that criteria, not that they were most of the transactions. 

But that raises an important evaluation on this.  If you look at the complete list of players that left as grad transfers to parity schools or higher profile, I think that is a majority of players on the list.  Others are viewing it as those that left for parity or lower profile, which would also be a majority.  But in the end, the school that recruited him, trained him, fed him, coached him, educated him still loses him.  Whether they leave for a parity situation or not, that original school is out.  Commitment broken.

There needs to be a middle point here.  If coach leaves, player can leave.  If player leaves on own, player should have some penalty if NCAA is going to limit roster sizes. 
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WarriorDad

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #124 on: August 24, 2018, 09:46:23 AM »
Since free agency came to MLB, only two teams (Nats and Mariners) haven't made the World Series.  19 of MLB's 30 teams have made it since 2000.

Smart teams that draft and invest wisely have repeatedly shown that they can put winning teams on the field.  Moreso over the last decade or so.  Do larger teams have an advantage in free agency?  Of course.  Has it been bad for baseball?  Hardly.  And I think fans agree!  The top 41 seasons in terms of per game attendance have all occurred since free agency was implemented.

"Not Chicos" is very similar to "Actual Chicos" in that he over-romanticizes things in the past.

The big market teams with the resources to spend have had it better than the small market teams since free agency.  On an ongoing, year after year review of consistently being good.  The Padres making it once, or the Marlins winning it all doesn’t erase the big market teams securing the talent more often than not.

Attendance is also subject to population growth.  The US population has grown every single year, but despite that this year it is down lowest in 15 years, and in 5 of the previous 6 years attendance has declined. 
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