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Author Topic: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted  (Read 6250 times)

Marcus92

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2018, 02:51:56 PM »
Being caught in a recruiting or academic scandal (such as fake classes at UNC or just about everything imaginable at Louisville) is an embarrassment for schools and the NCAA. But it's not illegal.

Those are violations of the NCAA's own standards. As long as coaches and programs see a benefit to sidestepping the rules, and until the NCAA starts to impose more serious consequences than temporary probation or suspension of a few scholarships, I don't see an end to such scandals. Holding school presidents and chancellors "personally accountable" sounds like a nice idea. I'm skeptical whether that has any teeth.

Would any rule about player-agent relationships or post-draft eligibility have prevented Louisville from hiring prostitutes for recruits or paying Brian Bowen $100,000 for his commitment?

Athletic companies bribing coaches to steer players to a school (the basis of the FBI investigation) is what should really make university officials sit up and take notice. There's a big difference between NCAA violations and federal crimes. But apart from allowing findings from outside investigations in its infractions process, I don't see much in the proposed new rules that directly addresses this issue.

While some of the updates should help at least some student athletes, it seems like more of a PR move than real change to me.
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rocket surgeon

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2018, 04:43:45 PM »
This is complete lip service, and shoddy lip service at that. How does this actually address players being able to come back to school after declaring they are going pro? The limitations put on those players effectively will prevent any players from coming back that want to. How does this address the illegal payments from shoe companies and agents? It doesn't at all.

This isn't making progress or taking action, it's creating headlines to convince people progress was made. It's a complete sham that doesn't address any of the issues the FBI investigation opened in the first place.

Further, this is actually making things worse for kids and coaches. For kids not part of the USA Basketball setup, how are they supposed to get noticed? You'll get maybe what, 800 kids per year in that setup? What about the hundreds beyond that number that still earn D1 scholarships, D2 scholarships, or get to play in D3? The NCAA is ACTIVELY working to make their lives worse. This is an attack on children.

For the coaches, when do they get any time off? Changing the calendar like this will have them at USA basketball camps when they usually could have spent time with their families and raising their own children. Again, the NCAA is ACTIVELY working to make their lives worse.

This organization is so incredibly blind and incompetent. Every bit of "progress made" and "action already taken" either fails to address the problem at hand or deliberately makes the lives worse of the people they claim to be trying to serve.

  right on brew!  this is acting like they care when in actuality, they further complicated it.  now it may be even to hide the $heeenanigan$, eyn'a?  they might as well set a cap limit so they know what they have left for the "un-washed"

muwarrior69

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2018, 04:54:46 PM »
I'm on USA basketball. I declared every player considering Presbyterian an elite player.

WarriorDad

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2018, 11:00:38 PM »
I'd like to give the NCAA credit for taking a first step in what will be a multiple-year, multiple-step evolution.

But I'd also like to think I'd have a chance with Scarlett Johansson. (Just a joke, Mrs. 82; you're all the woman I can handle!)

Seriously, this falls so short of any real reform that it's laughable. I like brew's breakdown.

Even those drafted and even those who didn't attend the combine should be able to return to school, and restricting agents to some undefined "elite" is as dopey as it gets.

Should end transfers having to sit out a year, too.

Transfers should have to sit unless their coach leaves. 

Dan Gavitt said this is fluid, additional amendments over the next 2, 3 or 4 years.  Takes time.  Again, try to get this many people, institutions to move in one direction in a democratic process (schools have to vote) takes time.  Some may not like it, but this is how it will be.  Slow movement, but movement nonetheless. 

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketball-rule-changes-what-will-happen-with-the-ncaas-new-rules-for-recruiting-and-the-nba-draft/
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WarriorDad

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2018, 11:13:53 PM »
Until the NBA is allowed to change their rules, 2022, the NCAA can only go so far.  That lever has to move for any material change.
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MU82

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2018, 11:19:17 PM »
Transfers should have to sit unless their coach leaves. 

When a scholarship violinist or a kid with an academic scholarship has to sit out a year after transferring, I'll believe that an athlete should have to sit out a year after transferring.
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Marcus92

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2018, 11:45:36 PM »
I'm all for giving athletes the right to transfer when and where they want, with no restrictions, just like any other college student. It'll probably happen eventually.

But changing the rules regarding transfers does nothing to reduce corruption in recruiting. More than 20 schools were implicated in the ongoing federal investigation. The list includes legendary programs such as Duke, UNC, Kentucky and Kansas. Plus Villanova, Xavier and Seton Hall from the Big East.

When payments to players and other NCAA violations become this pervasive, that's the real threat to the future of college basketball.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketballs-fbi-probe-gets-specific-with-players-teams-named-in-report/
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warriorchick

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2018, 06:57:11 AM »
When a scholarship violinist or a kid with an academic scholarship has to sit out a year after transferring, I'll believe that an athlete should have to sit out a year after transferring.

When smart kids and gifted musicians start making as much money for their schools as star athletes, they should have to sit out a year after transferring.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 08:10:08 AM by warriorchick »
Have some patience, FFS.

brewcity77

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2018, 07:13:50 AM »
When a scholarship violinist or a kid with an academic scholarship has to sit out a year after transferring, I'll believe that an athlete should have to sit out a year after transferring.

Especially when coaches leave so freely, both voluntarily and involuntarily. And non-revenue athletes generally don't sit either (see: Wally Ellenson in track). It's strictly a control mechanism.

And the money they make for the school shouldn't matter. How much money do they make for the school while sitting on the bench for a year?

warriorchick

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2018, 08:13:07 AM »
Especially when coaches leave so freely, both voluntarily and involuntarily. And non-revenue athletes generally don't sit either (see: Wally Ellenson in track). It's strictly a control mechanism.

And the money they make for the school shouldn't matter. How much money do they make for the school while sitting on the bench for a year?

My point is, if there is no waiting period, the recruiting of these kids will never stop. I can't imagine how distracting that would be.  And the only reason recruiting is so crazy for revenue sport athletes is the revenue.
Have some patience, FFS.

brewcity77

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2018, 08:19:18 AM »
My point is, if there is no waiting period, the recruiting of these kids will never stop. I can't imagine how distracting that would be.  And the only reason recruiting is so crazy for revenue sport athletes is the revenue.

I don't think it does stop now, but the rules on it wouldn't change, so most of the contact would still go through filters like coaches and family friends.

I just haven't ever heard a convincing argument why transfers need a year in residence when neither freshmen nor grad transfers need the same. That's why it's hard to believe that rule is in place for the benefit of the student athletes.

WarriorDad

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2018, 08:30:59 AM »
When a scholarship violinist or a kid with an academic scholarship has to sit out a year after transferring, I'll believe that an athlete should have to sit out a year after transferring.

Doesn't feel like a comparison that is worthy of discussion, but I will try. 

Does the violinist sign a national letter of intent or grant in aid that has binding rules that if they wish to leave they will have to sit out a year and not play violin for the school? Conditions come with many forms aid, this is the case with athletic grants.  Are those same conditions that the violinist is under?
Is the violinist on a team representing the school where 10's of thousands, or millions of people on television (for the biggest of games) are watching?  Those people providing valuable resources to the school in the form of donations? 
Is there a competitive balance the violinist is changing by transferring that is akin to sports? 
Are the violinist competitions on television rallying alumni to the TV set and into the arenas? 
Is the concert hall the violinist plays in hold 18K people? 
Can I buy t-shirts at the book store supporting the violinist and their team?

Edit:
These do not seem apt comparisons to me, both for what they do for the school or in how the scholarships and the conditions applied to them are structured.  We could argue the Chemistry professor is more important than the basketball coach, but the market dictates the coach will be paid much more than the Chemistry professor. The coach is also many times more likely to be fired while a professor is highly unlikely to be fired.  There are tradeoffs in life, and even though employees or students may be working or studying under the same institutional umbrella, it doesn't mean they are the same or the conditions in which they operate are equal.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 08:54:21 AM by WarriorDad »
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#UnleashTravis

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2018, 08:53:59 AM »
Doesn't feel like a comparison that is worthy of discussion, but I will try. 

Does the violinist sign a national letter of intent that has binding rules that if they wish to leave they will have to sit out a year and not play violin for the school?
Is the violinist on a team representing the school where 10's of thousands, or millions of people on television (for the biggest of games) are watching?  Those people providing valuable resources to the school in the form of donations? 
Is there a competitive balance the violinist is changing by transferring that is akin to sports? 
Are the violinist competitions on television rallying alumni to the TV set and into the arenas? 
Is the concert hall the violinist plays in hold 18K people? 
Can I buy t-shirts at the book store supporting the violinist and their team?
Are you comparing two things that should not be compared because there is no similarity at all?

This is an idiotic argument. Sure your argument is great if the schools and ncaa announce what needs to be announced. That these players are not student athletes, but rather athletes that are employed by the school.

Until that day comes, which may be in the next decade, they should have the exact same rights as anyone else under scholarship at the school.

WarriorDad

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2018, 09:00:38 AM »
This is an idiotic argument. Sure your argument is great if the schools and ncaa announce what needs to be announced. That these players are not student athletes, but rather athletes that are employed by the school.

Until that day comes, which may be in the next decade, they should have the exact same rights as anyone else under scholarship at the school.

Why? Are there not conditions granted for those scholarships?  When a student athlete signs for that grant, there are conditions tied to it. Are those the same conditions the violinist scholarship student is signing?

Why is it that my youngest at Marquette has several scholarships, one of which mandates a specific GPA be maintained each semester, but the other scholarships do not have any requirement other than "in good academic standing"?  Is it fair that her roommate's scholarships don't require a GPA mandate, while one of hers does?  Aren't they both students, at the same school? Why are the conditions different for one versus another?  Because those are the rules that are bound to those scholarships.  As there are rules applied to athletic grant in aid which anyone that signs knows what those rules or conditions are.  I would like to see them change the rules when a coach leaves, but not for other reasons.
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Sultan of South Wayne

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2018, 09:10:37 AM »
Why? Are there not conditions granted for those scholarships?  When a student athlete signs for that grant, there are conditions tied to it. Are those the same conditions the violinist scholarship student is signing?

Why is it that my youngest at Marquette has several scholarships, one of which mandates a specific GPA be maintained each semester, but the other scholarships do not have any requirement other than "in good academic standing"?  Is it fair that her roommate's scholarships don't require a GPA mandate, while one of hers does?  Aren't they both students, at the same school? Why are the conditions different for one versus another?  Because those are the rules that are bound to those scholarships.  As there are rules applied to athletic grant in aid which anyone that signs knows what those rules or conditions are.  I would like to see them change the rules when a coach leaves, but not for other reasons.


Wow.  A "rules are rules" argument.  How incredibly Chicos of you.

Anyway the point that most are making is that rules can (and should) be changed.
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Marcus92

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2018, 09:30:10 AM »
In the forest of important issues facing college basketball, transfer rules are one tiny sapling.

The commission led by Condoleezza Rice was formed in response to the federal corruption investigation that rocked the sport. Transfer rules have nothing to do with that; they're simply not critical to the future of the game. So it should come as no surprise that the commission's report and recommendations focused elsewhere.
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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2018, 09:30:39 AM »
Doesn't feel like a comparison that is worthy of discussion, but I will try. 

Does the violinist sign a national letter of intent or grant in aid that has binding rules that if they wish to leave they will have to sit out a year and not play violin for the school? Conditions come with many forms aid, this is the case with athletic grants.  Are those same conditions that the violinist is under?
Is the violinist on a team representing the school where 10's of thousands, or millions of people on television (for the biggest of games) are watching?  Those people providing valuable resources to the school in the form of donations? 
Is there a competitive balance the violinist is changing by transferring that is akin to sports? 
Are the violinist competitions on television rallying alumni to the TV set and into the arenas? 
Is the concert hall the violinist plays in hold 18K people? 
Can I buy t-shirts at the book store supporting the violinist and their team?

Edit:
These do not seem apt comparisons to me, both for what they do for the school or in how the scholarships and the conditions applied to them are structured.  We could argue the Chemistry professor is more important than the basketball coach, but the market dictates the coach will be paid much more than the Chemistry professor. The coach is also many times more likely to be fired while a professor is highly unlikely to be fired.  There are tradeoffs in life, and even though employees or students may be working or studying under the same institutional umbrella, it doesn't mean they are the same or the conditions in which they operate are equal.

This argument doesn't work for me because the NCAA has said its not about "rules are rules" or about the money that the players generates for the school. They claim it is to benefit the athlete academically. My problem with this is that statistically, freshman and juco transfers struggle academically a lot more than traditional transfers do (not sure of the data on first year grad students). Yet those populations are allowed to play right away while transfer sit. I'm just a fan of consistency. If it truly is about academics then make jucos and freshmen sit as well.
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Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2018, 09:55:31 AM »
When smart kids and gifted musicians start making as much money for their schools as star athletes, they should have to sit out a year after transferring.

They usually just drop out to make their money.

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2018, 11:04:04 AM »
This argument doesn't work for me because the NCAA has said its not about "rules are rules" or about the money that the players generates for the school. They claim it is to benefit the athlete academically. My problem with this is that statistically, freshman and juco transfers struggle academically a lot more than traditional transfers do (not sure of the data on first year grad students). Yet those populations are allowed to play right away while transfer sit. I'm just a fan of consistency. If it truly is about academics then make jucos and freshmen sit as well.

That's the NCAA trying to be politically correct. They can't admit that revenue athletes are pseudo employees.   So they say the year in residence rule is for academics.

I think it's a boldface lie. The real reason is to prevent players from hopping teams willy nilly.  I'm ok with that being the reason.  Playing D-1 basketball and football is a privilege,  not a right.  Nothing wrong with putting some conditions on that privilege.

For the most part, players face very few restrictions for when and where they transfer.  The issue of when they are eligible to compete is what's restricted.  I have no problem with that.  I know a lot of people think it's unfair but I disagree.  I'm not going to pretend it benefits the student-athlete.  But I don't think it does any harm.

The year in residence rule is also  a deterrent for coaches tampering with players. Without the rule, recruiting never stops.  I can even imagine schools paying kids to transfer.  How much would an immediately eligible Markus Howard be worth on the black market of recruiting?  Imagine adding even more corruption to D-1 revenue sports.



brewcity77

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2018, 12:51:23 PM »
Doesn't feel like a comparison that is worthy of discussion, but I will try. 

Does the violinist sign a national letter of intent or grant in aid that has binding rules that if they wish to leave they will have to sit out a year and not play violin for the school? Conditions come with many forms aid, this is the case with athletic grants.  Are those same conditions that the violinist is under?
Is the violinist on a team representing the school where 10's of thousands, or millions of people on television (for the biggest of games) are watching?  Those people providing valuable resources to the school in the form of donations? 
Is there a competitive balance the violinist is changing by transferring that is akin to sports? 
Are the violinist competitions on television rallying alumni to the TV set and into the arenas? 
Is the concert hall the violinist plays in hold 18K people? 
Can I buy t-shirts at the book store supporting the violinist and their team?

This is idiotic because nothing in the response remotely addresses the benefit of the year in residence. It's like addressing the question of "why" with "because." That might work with a 3-year-old, but not here.

MU82

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2018, 07:32:56 PM »
Doesn't feel like a comparison that is worthy of discussion, but I will try. 

Does the violinist sign a national letter of intent or grant in aid that has binding rules that if they wish to leave they will have to sit out a year and not play violin for the school? Conditions come with many forms aid, this is the case with athletic grants.  Are those same conditions that the violinist is under?
Is the violinist on a team representing the school where 10's of thousands, or millions of people on television (for the biggest of games) are watching?  Those people providing valuable resources to the school in the form of donations? 
Is there a competitive balance the violinist is changing by transferring that is akin to sports? 
Are the violinist competitions on television rallying alumni to the TV set and into the arenas? 
Is the concert hall the violinist plays in hold 18K people? 
Can I buy t-shirts at the book store supporting the violinist and their team?

Edit:
These do not seem apt comparisons to me, both for what they do for the school or in how the scholarships and the conditions applied to them are structured.  We could argue the Chemistry professor is more important than the basketball coach, but the market dictates the coach will be paid much more than the Chemistry professor. The coach is also many times more likely to be fired while a professor is highly unlikely to be fired.  There are tradeoffs in life, and even though employees or students may be working or studying under the same institutional umbrella, it doesn't mean they are the same or the conditions in which they operate are equal.

Thanks for trying.

Try again when you have a better argument.

When smart kids and gifted musicians start making as much money for their schools as star athletes, they should have to sit out a year after transferring.

I'd have expected a better argument from you, chickadee.

Coaches make a lot of money for their schools (theoretically) and they leave whenever they damn well feel like it. They should have to sit out a year after leaving.
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brewcity77

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2018, 07:41:01 PM »
Coaches make a lot of money for their schools (theoretically) and they leave whenever they damn well feel like it. They should have to sit out a year after leaving.

And while yes, there is a difference between paid coaches and students due to the archaic notions of amateurism, the decisions of coaches to leave without repercussion directly impacts the student athletes that cannot leave without repercussion.

WarriorDad

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2018, 12:30:01 AM »
This argument doesn't work for me because the NCAA has said its not about "rules are rules" or about the money that the players generates for the school. They claim it is to benefit the athlete academically. My problem with this is that statistically, freshman and juco transfers struggle academically a lot more than traditional transfers do (not sure of the data on first year grad students). Yet those populations are allowed to play right away while transfer sit. I'm just a fan of consistency. If it truly is about academics then make jucos and freshmen sit as well.

I think the NCAAs argument about one year of residence is flimsy.  The true argument is it will create free agency and damage college basketball. They should just say that, because that is the truth and also why transfers shouldn't be allowed unless a coach leaves.
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MU82

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2018, 03:03:55 PM »
I think the NCAAs argument about one year of residence is flimsy.  The true argument is it will create free agency and damage college basketball. They should just say that, because that is the truth and also why transfers shouldn't be allowed unless a coach leaves.

College basketball would survive just fine.

There were many who thought players leaving early for the NBA would irreparably damage college basketball. There were many who thought players being able to go directly from high school to the NBA would irreparably damage college basketball. There were many who thought the rampant violations, point-shaving scandals, agent-involved infractions, etc, would damage college basketball.

College basketball is resilient.

Anything that would treat the players as the No. 1 reason (by far) that college basketball is profitable and resilient would be a good thing IMHO.
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WarriorDad

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Re: Major NCAA Changes: Agents, Returns If Not Drafted
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2018, 10:30:18 PM »
College basketball would survive just fine.

There were many who thought players leaving early for the NBA would irreparably damage college basketball. There were many who thought players being able to go directly from high school to the NBA would irreparably damage college basketball. There were many who thought the rampant violations, point-shaving scandals, agent-involved infractions, etc, would damage college basketball.

College basketball is resilient.

Anything that would treat the players as the No. 1 reason (by far) that college basketball is profitable and resilient would be a good thing IMHO.

College basketball is not near the quality it used to be since guys left early for the NBA.  No one can say this with a straight face.  Early departures and kids jumping straight to the NBA has not helped the college game.  I'm ok with the latter, however, if it means something like the hockey or baseball rule.

IMHO open transfers will lead to tampering, full scale free agency and hurt the middle class teams.  Why hang around at Loyola to see if you are good if you are a senior and can fit into a power program.  Devastating effects for the college game. Will make it even more of the 1% dominating the sport. 

edit

“It would turn into one of the dirtiest recruiting periods that you’ve ever seen,” said Archie Miller. “You’ll have guys talking to your players when they are in your gym. Coaches will recruit players right after games and now you can go directly to the source, it would cripple teams and programs.”

“I think it’s ridiculous,” Chris Mack  “There’s a constant narrative on social media about the mass exodus of kids and how it’s appalling so many kids opt to transfer.  So now we want to make it easier to transfer? I don’t see any logic in that line of thinking. Doesn’t surprise me, but it’s a step in the wrong direction in my opinion. I transferred years ago and I sat out a year. Did me a world of good. It's not the negative people make it out to be.”

“It makes it impossible to build a program,” Christian (Mt. St. Mary's Coach) said when asked about the potential rule. “These kids are going to choose your school, looking for an opportunity to move up every year.  It’s going to impact everyone.   You won’t be able to have depth. I don’t know if high majors think that, but I think it’ll impact every single program because if guys don’t play they’ll leave. Everyone becomes a JUCO. It’s going to impact everyone.”

“The power 5 will be doing most of their recruiting off the other teams,” said Middle Tennessee State coach Kermit Davis.  “Recruiting on each other's campus, ridiculous,” Davis said. “Will bring in college coaches Wrestle Mania.”  “Will be the worst rule in the history of college hoops"
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 10:40:46 PM by WarriorDad »
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