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Author Topic: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie  (Read 21882 times)

jutaw22mu

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #50 on: July 15, 2018, 05:46:34 PM »
This, like several other comments here, is really missing the point. It's not just that ScarJo isn't/doesn't look like a transgender person, it's that the casting of her in that part deprives actual transgender artists of one of their very few opportunities for a significant role.

What's stopping transgender women from playing the role of a real woman and transgender men from playing the role of a real man?  After all as others have pointed out already, acting is pretending to be someone that you aren't.  They could very well take up those roles from normal people.  No limited opportunities.

brewcity77

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #51 on: July 15, 2018, 06:24:05 PM »
What's stopping transgender women from playing the role of a real woman and transgender men from playing the role of a real man?  After all as others have pointed out already, acting is pretending to be someone that you aren't.  They could very well take up those roles from normal people.  No limited opportunities.

But they don't. Hollywood doesn't cast them like that. To open the door to allow them to take more roles, casting directors and producers need to be willing to give them some roles, any roles, and the roles they actually identify with are the best place to start.

Honestly, that's one of the things I've loved about Billions on Showtime. The staff created a role and found Asia Kate Dillon to play it. They have done an excellent job portraying Taylor Mason and it has made the show that much more compelling, because Taylor is an awesome character.

The Billions staff could have just as easily cast a male or female actor in that role, but Dillon fit the role because it is exactly who they are and who they represent on a daily basis. We should see more of that, not less, and when those opportunities are there, I would rather see people that authentically represent the role than another cisgendered whitewashing of a role.
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WarriorDad

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #52 on: July 15, 2018, 11:51:56 PM »
Again, as I explained in the last post, no one is advocating that actors only play their own identities. The anger is at a system that keeps trans actors and makes it very difficult for non-white actors, to get major roles. There are precious few major roles that can be played by a trans actor while there are plenty of major roles that someone like ScarJo can get. At the end of the day, it is a job, so the best person who can reasonably represent the part should get the role but it does lend to the cycle I mentioned before.

Now all that being said the "can reasonably play the part" is something that I think sometimes we have struggled with as a society in the past. I would say Freeman as Red, Cruise as Jack Reacher, Costner as Robin Hood? Those are all situations where despite the person not being an exact match they can reasonably portray the person they are meant to. Wayne as Ghengis Khan? Depp as Tonto? Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's? Those are not reasonable and teeter (or in Rooney's case are) into the realm of racism.

I also think you are struggling to differentiate trans and gay. Gay is not a visual identity so a person of any sexual orientation can play that and it would be believable. Trans is a visual identity, though I would argue it is one that can successfully be portray by a cisgendered actor.

Why are there precious few roles?  Hollywood prides itself on progressive causes, this should not be an issue.  Why is trans a visual identity only?  A number transgender people are gorgeous, and look every bit male or female they choose.  Cannot tell if they are transgender or not.  Didn't a transgender recently win a beauty contest? 
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 11:54:04 PM by WarriorDad »
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mu_hilltopper

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2018, 07:10:01 AM »
One point .. there are ~700 "movies" released each year in the US.   Not counting hundreds more from the EU and other foreign films.

If you google "top transgender movies of 20xx" you'll get ~10.

So there are roles.  Just very few (to zero) of the special few that are financially viable and make it to your movie theater.  The topic is far more a matter of demand than anything else.

brewcity77

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #54 on: July 16, 2018, 07:21:11 AM »
One point .. there are ~700 "movies" released each year in the US.   Not counting hundreds more from the EU and other foreign films.

If you google "top transgender movies of 20xx" you'll get ~10.

So there are roles.  Just very few (to zero) of the special few that are financially viable and make it to your movie theater.  The topic is far more a matter of demand than anything else.

Maybe, but I look back to this comment from Lennys:

Very possibly.I would check IMDB, read reviews, etc.and then decide. I'm a movie guy and will watch anything well done.

If something is good, if it has a compelling story, is well-acted and produced, a film, even one that isn't expected to succeed, can make money and draw in an audience. 10 years ago, there's no way Black Panther gets made. There's probably no way Get Out gets made. How much changed because of Moonlight's success? How many doors that might have been closed or only open a crack will get more opportunity because of that.

Part of the reason there isn't a demand is because Hollywood squashes those voices because the same people that have been in charge for decades decide what does and doesn't get made? The demand doesn't exist in large part because the gatekeepers don't allow the demand to exist. And the whole "liberal Hollywood" crap is BS. Yes, there are some liberal individuals, even wealthy liberals that have large platforms, but the people that control the real money and call the shots of what gets made and what doesn't caters to their perception of the audience. If you look at the films we see getting made year after year, at the films allowed to win awards year after year, it's pretty obvious the stories they allow to be made are primarily white, male, and cisgendered.

I agree with Lennys that just because you don't identify with a story, that doesn't mean people won't go out of their way to find it. If the story is well done, if the portrayal is authentic and believable, and if it is created in a compelling way, there will be an audience.
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CTWarrior

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #55 on: July 16, 2018, 08:17:44 AM »

Would it have been appropriate to cast Leo DiCaprio as MLK in the movie "Selma?"

Yeah obviously that's an exaggeration, but I think that is similar to how the trans community views this.

I still refuse to watch the Jack Reacher movies (I love the books) because they cast a small guy (Tom Cruise) to play Reacher, whose sheer size is a fundamental component of the character.  So I get the unhappiness with cast choice based on physical characteristics.  I wouldn't have minded if a black actor of appropriate size played Reacher, though, as race was not a fundamental aspect of the character. 

I don't get all bent out of shape about casting decisions, though.  I just don't watch the movie.
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CTWarrior

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #56 on: July 16, 2018, 08:37:07 AM »
And the whole "liberal Hollywood" crap is BS. Yes, there are some liberal individuals, even wealthy liberals that have large platforms, but the people that control the real money and call the shots of what gets made and what doesn't caters to their perception of the audience.

Even liberals aren't liberal when it comes to their money.  Business is business, and people in business are there to make money.  So they are much more likely to base their decisions on their wallet (or what they think is beneficial to their wallet) than they are to their personal philosophy. 
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GGGG

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #57 on: July 16, 2018, 08:43:57 AM »
I still refuse to watch the Jack Reacher movies (I love the books) because they cast a small guy (Tom Cruise) to play Reacher, whose sheer size is a fundamental component of the character.  So I get the unhappiness with cast choice based on physical characteristics.  I wouldn't have minded if a black actor of appropriate size played Reacher, though, as race was not a fundamental aspect of the character. 

I don't get all bent out of shape about casting decisions, though.  I just don't watch the movie.


Yeah I've been thinking about this some more about this.  Joaquin Phoenix is playing paraplegic cartoonist John Callahan in a movie coming out this weekend.  (It' supposed to be terrible.)  Should he not have accepted this role leaving it for someone who is paraplegic instead?

So while I do understand the point, I also think actors are paid to act. 

mu_hilltopper

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #58 on: July 16, 2018, 08:45:20 AM »
Maybe, but I look back to this comment from Lennys:

If something is good, if it has a compelling story, is well-acted and produced, a film, even one that isn't expected to succeed, can make money and draw in an audience....

Every one of the 700 films/year finds "an audience."  Only ~50 have a slice of commercial success.  Some guys make it to the NBA, most have to play in Estonia to make a buck.

If you look at the films we see getting made year after year, at the films allowed to win awards year after year, it's pretty obvious the stories they allow to be made are primarily white, male, and cisgendered.

C'mon.  There are hundreds of films made, from every topic A-Z, and 90+% of them might be wonderful, but are commercial flops.  Nothing is not "allowed" to be made. Really, the same can be said about every piece of art, sculpture, painting and song. 

And yes, one of the filters for awards is commercial success.  That's a bummer.

Admittedly, there are gatekeepers but their motivation isn't to keep Group XYZ down, their top 3 motivations are: revenue, revenue, revenue.   Do they make mistakes .. do they get tunnel vision .. sure.  If they hit their revenue targets, it's all good.  Except for the outrage, of course.


mu03eng

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #59 on: July 16, 2018, 09:02:06 AM »
Even liberals aren't liberal when it comes to their money.  Business is business, and people in business are there to make money.  So they are much more likely to base their decisions on their wallet (or what they think is beneficial to their wallet) than they are to their personal philosophy.

I do think there is definitely a lot of group think that goes on in Hollywood that keeps certain stories from being told because they don't think it'll make revenue....without that necessarily being true. As someone pointed out, Get Out doesn't get made 10 years ago and it was a big hit last year.
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MU82

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #60 on: July 16, 2018, 09:10:06 AM »
Interesting (and mostly civil) discussion, folks.

Thanks.
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CTWarrior

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #61 on: July 16, 2018, 09:11:42 AM »
I do think there is definitely a lot of group think that goes on in Hollywood that keeps certain stories from being told because they don't think it'll make revenue....without that necessarily being true. As someone pointed out, Get Out doesn't get made 10 years ago and it was a big hit last year.

Not sure why not.  Relatively low budget, low risk movie.  I think it could've been made 10 years ago.  I think a lot of those type movies are made because they might hit and if they don't its not a major financial hit plus it helps develop and/or help you figure out which filmmakers might develop into something.
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mu03eng

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #62 on: July 16, 2018, 09:22:32 AM »
Part of the reason there isn't a demand is because Hollywood squashes those voices because the same people that have been in charge for decades decide what does and doesn't get made? The demand doesn't exist in large part because the gatekeepers don't allow the demand to exist. And the whole "liberal Hollywood" crap is BS. Yes, there are some liberal individuals, even wealthy liberals that have large platforms, but the people that control the real money and call the shots of what gets made and what doesn't caters to their perception of the audience. If you look at the films we see getting made year after year, at the films allowed to win awards year after year, it's pretty obvious the stories they allow to be made are primarily white, male, and cisgendered.

Regardless of the liberal Hollywood discussion, which I think is almost a totally different discussion, I struggle a little with this idea that the stories are primarily white, male, and cisgendered (especially the cisgendered part). I get that all lifestyles should have representation within entertainment both to expose people to those lifestyles who otherwise wouldn't see it and to give people have that lifsetyle some recognition in entertainment (ultimately it's about representing real life better within the context of entertainment). Having said that, I struggle with the idea of generating content with a "forced" representation within it or creating content focused on a particular lifestyle that may be "niche" but somehow suspending the idea that the content needs to make money. At the end of the day this is entertainment/business and to some extent you have to give the people "what they want" to generate revenue.
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mu03eng

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #63 on: July 16, 2018, 09:26:32 AM »
Not sure why not.  Relatively low budget, low risk movie.  I think it could've been made 10 years ago.  I think a lot of those type movies are made because they might hit and if they don't its not a major financial hit plus it helps develop and/or help you figure out which filmmakers might develop into something.

Weird way to say this, but it wasn't made 10 years ago, and nothing like it was. That's what I sight as evidence that it couldn't have been made 10 years ago. Jordan Peele is a brilliant dude, but this culture bending approach isn't some break through, it just hasn't been done in such a big way and economically successful. I don't think the ingredients existed previously for it to be nearly as impactful as it was.
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MUBurrow

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #64 on: July 16, 2018, 09:28:47 AM »
And yes, one of the filters for awards is commercial success.  That's a bummer.

Again - this was all this movie was about. ScarJo was Oscar hunting with the "role of someone from a discriminated against group or that is physically handicapped" trope. She got called out for using the trans community as nothing more than a vehicle to show her acting range, and then realized that once she got called out the Academy was never going to give her her Oscar - so she quit.

Hards Alumni

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #65 on: July 16, 2018, 09:49:18 AM »

Yeah I've been thinking about this some more about this.  Joaquin Phoenix is playing paraplegic cartoonist John Callahan in a movie coming out this weekend.  (It' supposed to be terrible.)  Should he not have accepted this role leaving it for someone who is paraplegic instead?

So while I do understand the point, I also think actors are paid to act.

This is mostly what I was trying to say.  Should people only play what they are?

MUBurrow

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #66 on: July 16, 2018, 09:57:52 AM »
This is mostly what I was trying to say.  Should people only play what they are?

Of course not. But when the character is a member of a community that is different from you, and the membership in the community is what makes the role valuable, you have a responsibility to that community. This was a good role for ScarJo because the character was trans. That's what made her take the role and what lead to the early Oscar whispers. 

But in exchange, Scarjo has a responsibility to the trans community. If she wants to take that role, she has a responsibility to get other trans actors roles in the film. She has a responsibility to reach out to that community and legitimately assist with the difficulties they face. She can't just treat the role like Black Widow.  If she doesn't want to assume that responsibility, fine, but then don't take roles that benefit you because of the difficulties that character faced (or would face if it is fiction) in the real world.

ScarJo got called out for that behavior and acted like a complete sh!thead. And here we are.

CTWarrior

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #67 on: July 16, 2018, 10:08:59 AM »
Of course not. But when the character is a member of a community that is different from you, and the membership in the community is what makes the role valuable, you have a responsibility to that community. This was a good role for ScarJo because the character was trans. That's what made her take the role and what lead to the early Oscar whispers. 

But in exchange, Scarjo has a responsibility to the trans community. If she wants to take that role, she has a responsibility to get other trans actors roles in the film. She has a responsibility to reach out to that community and legitimately assist with the difficulties they face. She can't just treat the role like Black Widow.  If she doesn't want to assume that responsibility, fine, but then don't take roles that benefit you because of the difficulties that character faced (or would face if it is fiction) in the real world.

ScarJo got called out for that behavior and acted like a complete sh!thead. And here we are.
Scarlett Johansson is an actress.  Her job is to act.  As a bankable star, her responsibility is to pick from the many roles she is offered the ones she is most interested in doing for whatever her personal reasons are, even if that includes Oscar hunting.  Not sure why she should have any obligations to the trans community other than delivering her best possible performance.  Now if she is a producer of the movie or a casting agent, she may have those other obligations of which you spoke. 
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MUBurrow

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #68 on: July 16, 2018, 10:16:16 AM »
Scarlett Johansson is an actress.  Her job is to act.  As a bankable star, her responsibility is to pick from the many roles she is offered the ones she is most interested in doing for whatever her personal reasons are, even if that includes Oscar hunting.  Not sure why she should have any obligations to the trans community other than delivering her best possible performance.  Now if she is a producer of the movie or a casting agent, she may have those other obligations of which you spoke.

Agree to very strongly disagree. That presumes that everyone's profession cleanses any moral responsibility they might have to other people, so long as they can say "no no - i was only doing that to make money."

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #69 on: July 16, 2018, 10:42:06 AM »
Agree to very strongly disagree. That presumes that everyone's profession cleanses any moral responsibility they might have to other people, so long as they can say "no no - i was only doing that to make money."

So when she plays a nun, a bored newlywed, or a superhero all she owes us is an honest performance. But if she portrays a transgender person she has to become an activist. Nonsense.

CTWarrior

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #70 on: July 16, 2018, 10:44:47 AM »
Agree to very strongly disagree. That presumes that everyone's profession cleanses any moral responsibility they might have to other people, so long as they can say "no no - i was only doing that to make money."

Since when does a profession have a "moral responsibility" to any group of people not in that profession beyond not doing them harm and being respectful, like all human beings have for all other human beings?  I can't think of a good comparison to another profession at the moment, but moral obligations in the professional world are to me things like a chemical company has a moral responsibility to not dump hazard waste dangerously or a manufacturing company has the moral responsibility to not abuse foreign workers or children through miserable working conditions for terrible pay.  It does not include reaching out to others because you got a job they felt they were more qualified for.

But I can agree to disagree on this one, since acting in movies is far enough outside the mainstream of professions that there could be a different set of rules.
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MUBurrow

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #71 on: July 16, 2018, 10:56:28 AM »
Since when does a profession have a "moral responsibility" to any group of people not in that profession beyond not doing them harm and being respectful, like all human beings have for all other human beings?  I can't think of a good comparison to another profession at the moment, but moral obligations in the professional world are to me things like a chemical company has a moral responsibility to not dump hazard waste dangerously or a manufacturing company has the moral responsibility to not abuse foreign workers or children through miserable working conditions for terrible pay.  It does not include reaching out to others because you got a job they felt they were more qualified for.

But I can agree to disagree on this one, since acting in movies is far enough outside the mainstream of professions that there could be a different set of rules.

I mean more that one's profession doesn't absolve them from any moral responsibility they otherwise have to folks outside the professional context. And I think that when your profession is pretending to be other folks, that comes with its own set of responsibilities. When criticized that she was falling short of those responsibilities, ScarJo responded with...

So when she plays a nun, a bored newlywed, or a superhero all she owes us is an honest performance. But if she portrays a transgender person she has to become an activist. Nonsense.

... which I think is a wrong view of the acting profession and deserving of even greater criticism than the original, specific criticism regarding the trans community.

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #72 on: July 16, 2018, 11:15:20 AM »
So when she plays a nun, a bored newlywed, or a superhero all she owes us is an honest performance. But if she portrays a transgender person she has to become an activist. Nonsense.

Are nuns, newlyweds, or superheroes underrepresented in Hollywood and trying to break in?

She is trying to appropriate another culture for her own ends, and her tone deaf statement only reinforces that she doesn't care about the community she's representing, only the acclaim she gets from it.

Dwayne Johnson has been criticized some for Skyscraper, his new blockbuster where he plays a disabled veteran. Johnson acknowledged that he was playing a role but at least said he hopes this will lead to more opportunities for disabled performers. Had Johansson used the opportunity to acknowledge the community she was representing and used the role to lift others up rather than pointing to Jeffrey <expletive> Tambor as justification, it would've come across better.

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Coleman

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #73 on: July 16, 2018, 11:44:14 AM »
Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's as Mr. Yunishi.

Swing and a miss

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Re: Scarlett Johannson Quits Movie
« Reply #74 on: July 16, 2018, 11:46:17 AM »
Of course not. But when the character is a member of a community that is different from you, and the membership in the community is what makes the role valuable, you have a responsibility to that community. This was a good role for ScarJo because the character was trans. That's what made her take the role and what lead to the early Oscar whispers. 

But in exchange, Scarjo has a responsibility to the trans community. If she wants to take that role, she has a responsibility to get other trans actors roles in the film. She has a responsibility to reach out to that community and legitimately assist with the difficulties they face. She can't just treat the role like Black Widow.  If she doesn't want to assume that responsibility, fine, but then don't take roles that benefit you because of the difficulties that character faced (or would face if it is fiction) in the real world.

ScarJo got called out for that behavior and acted like a complete sh!thead. And here we are.

This is well said.

 

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