Why Elliott can be our PG of the future.

[Its DJOver]

Disclaimer: I still think we need a grad transfer PG, and I don't know much about advanced stats, so this list is based on what I could find.

Going off the idea of J5's blind resume test during the season, I took a look at the stats that the starting PG on all Beast teams put up their Freshman year, and while GE wouldn't be my first choice, he probably wouldn't be my last either.  Not all teams started a true PG this year, or had scenarios like we did last year where KR was running point so take the info for what's its worth. Also, its easy just to look up the players and figure out who's who, but don't post it for at least a little while.


PG1)   25mpg.   38% shooting.   28% from 3   75% FT.   3 boards.   2 assists.   1 steal.     1.5 TO.   9 points.

PG2)   26mpg.   49% shooting.   37% from 3   75% FT.   4 boards.   1.5 assists. 1.7 steals.   1.5 TO.   10 points.

PG3)   24mpg.   45% shooting.   38% from 3    77% FT.   2 boards.   2.5 assists.  1 steal.      2 TO.       9.6 points.

PG4)   33mpg.    43% shooting.   37% from 3  82% FT.  4 boards.   3 assists.   2 steals.   2 TO.     17.4 points

PG5)   20mpg.   35% shooting.   34% from 3   75% FT.   2 boards.   2 assists.   .5 steals     1 TO.    3.6 points.

PG6)   18mpg.   50% shooting.   36% from 3   79% FT.   2 boards.     1.5 assists.  1 steal.     1 TO.    4.5 points.

PG7)   28mpg.    43% shooting.   42% from 3  65% FT.   3 boards.    2 assists.     1 steal.    2 TO.   10 points.

PG8)   12mpg.    38% shooting.    36% from 3  78% FT.   1 board.    2 assists.  .5 steals    1 TO.     3 points.

PG9)   24mpg.    35% shooting.    25% from 3  57% FT.    2 boards.    3.5 assists.  1 steal.     2 TO.    5 points.

PG10)  18mpg.    38% shooting.    12% from 3  74% FT.  2 boards.    2.5 assists.  .5 steals.   1 TO.    3.5 points.


Just based off scoring there are three main tiers.  The 3-5 ppg, the 9-11 ppg, and one sitting pretty at 17, but overall numbers show that there isn't too much separating the freshman years of these Big East point guards.  Now obviously some players were forced into larger roles than others, and some were on better teams.  In an ideal world we'd get a grad transfer, who would split time with Elliott, and then Elliott could step into the main role with DJ Carton as his back up in 2019, and Markus would rarely ever be forced to play point.  PG is still the area with the least amount of depth going into next year, but Greg can be a starting point guard in this league and hold his own.
   

[MuMark]

20% turnover rate on 13% usage says maybe not.

Let him be who he is......if he develops into a guy who can be a primary ball handler without turning it over a ton great.. ...no idea if that will be his role going forward but I think not.

Hope and think Wojo will have better options there.

[MU82]

I like to think we'll have better options at PG too.

But then again, not a whole lot of Scoopers were saying at this point a year ago that Rowsey would be a well-above average to excellent PG.

[Nukem2]

I like to think we'll have better options at PG too.

But then again, not a whole lot of Scoopers were saying at this point a year ago that Rowsey would be a well-above average to excellent PG.

well, he did well when he passed the ball.  Defense?  Well........

[MU82]

well, he did well when he passed the ball.  Defense?  Well........

We know Elliott will be vastly superior to Rowsey on defense. That's not what I was talking about.

I am definitely in the "we need a starting PG camp."

But, as I said, few were sitting here a year ago saying, "I bet next season Rowsey will have one of the best offensive seasons any Marquette PG has ever had."

[WindyCityGoldenEagle]

I'm in the opposite camp. I don't see it happening. I'll say he remains a 1-2 dribble attack guy from the wing.

If he were to become a successful pg with his measurables he'd be looking at the nba some day - just don't see it.

[hdog1017]

The team needs some dogs.  They are softer than Charmin. 

[Newsdreams]

The team needs some dogs.  They are softer than Charmin.

Morrow, Theo, and to an extent Sacar (how he was playing by the end of the season) are def not soft.

[Galway Eagle]

Morrow, Theo, and to an extent Sacar (how he was playing by the end of the season) are def not soft.

This. I think we're gonna see some bruisers next year but especially in two when Theo is starting center with Morrow and Sacar as well.

[Jockey]

I'm in the opposite camp. I don't see it happening. I'll say he remains a 1-2 dribble attack guy from the wing.

If he were to become a successful pg with his measurables he'd be looking at the nba some day - just don't see it.

I agree. Many here said Vander would be a PG. They said Duane could be a PG. Some here have even said Howard could be a PG.

I don't see those things happening - I don't see Elliot as a PG.  As 82 said, he can play the position on defense, but we need someone to run the team.

[lohaus]

I tend to be more optimistic with what I think the biggest jump coming between freshman and sophomore year coming for Greg. I also think having 1 1/2 hands this season with one functional thumb doesn't yield a true picture of his guard abilities.  How about we just call him a guard?  There isn't a Brunson on this team but I would take a DJO type guard.

[muwarrior69]

It wasn't too long ago we were complaining we had no bigs; now we have no point guard.
Someday, and I hope soon, we'll put it together.

[Its DJOver]

I agree. Many here said Vander would be a PG. They said Duane could be a PG. Some here have even said Howard could be a PG.

I don't see those things happening - I don't see Elliot as a PG.  As 82 said, he can play the position on defense, but we need someone to run the team.

Vander played alongside Junior for 3 years, so there was no need for him to play PG.  The general consensus seems to be that Junior should be the minimum that a Big East PG should be and comparing Greg's freshman year to Junior's sophomore year there's not a lot of separation.  Junior had a slightly better assist to turnover ratio, but Greg shot better in every category, had more rebounds, blocks and steals.  Now I'm not saying that Greg will be 1st team all Big East as a Junior or a Senior, and I would certainly never compare him to a former Michigan State PG, who happens to be one of the best players of all time, but Greg has the skill-set to develop into a quality Big East PG.

[WarriorInNYC]

I love Greg Elliott, but I still don't see him as a PG.  Maybe he can develop his handle to get there, but I don't see it at the moment.

When I think of a guy who can play PG, the one question I ask is am I comfortable with them handling the ball up the court while being pressed.  Right now, the answer in regards to Greg is No.

[GGGG]

Vander played alongside Junior for 3 years, so there was no need for him to play PG.  The general consensus seems to be that Junior should be the minimum that a Big East PG should be and comparing Greg's freshman year to Junior's sophomore year there's not a lot of separation.  Junior had a slightly better assist to turnover ratio, but Greg shot better in every category, had more rebounds, blocks and steals.  Now I'm not saying that Greg will be 1st team all Big East as a Junior or a Senior, and I would certainly never compare him to a former Michigan State PG, who happens to be one of the best players of all time, but Greg has the skill-set to develop into a quality Big East PG.

A/TO ratio is not a good stat to use.  Junior had the stats of a PG.  High Ast%, high TO% and high usage.  Elliott's stats look like a back-up guard who plays off the ball.

I think Markus is a better option at PG than Elliott is.  I actually think Markus would be fine.

I also think you can use Sam in a point forward type roll.  He's very smart against the press.

[Its DJOver]

I love Greg Elliott, but I still don't see him as a PG.  Maybe he can develop his handle to get there, but I don't see it at the moment.

When I think of a guy who can play PG, the one question I ask is am I comfortable with them handling the ball up the court while being pressed.  Right now, the answer in regards to Greg is No.

I don't understand this fascination with press breaking around here.  Rowsey was our best ball handler since Dom IMO, and if he were trying to break a press by himself I wouldn't be comfortable with that.  Watching Nova play against WVA in the tourney, even though Nova had one of the best PG in the country, there were very few if any times that the press was beaten without passing, and WVA probably has the best press in the country.  GE showed solid decision making for a freshman and he has a better ability to see over a press than AR had.  If he moves up a weight class or two, and tightens up his handling a little (which should be easy once he's playing with two hands again) I would have no problem  with GE being involved in a press break.

[Its DJOver]

A/TO ratio is not a good stat to use.  Junior had the stats of a PG.  High Ast%, high TO% and high usage.  Elliott's stats look like a back-up guard who plays off the ball.

I think Markus is a better option at PG than Elliott is.  I actually think Markus would be fine.

I also think you can use Sam in a point forward type roll.  He's very smart against the press.

Why is A/TO ratio not a good stat?

Junior's sophomore year, he and Reggie Smith were the only PG's on the team.  DJO, Buycks, and Vander were all off the ball guards IMO, so Junior was going to have a higher usage than Greg did this year when he was playing behind Rowsey. 

I think Markus can run the point too, I just think our offense will be better if he is playing off the ball/running of screens/catch and shoot.

[GGGG]

Why is A/TO ratio not a good stat?

Because it doesn't take volume into consideration.  Elliott had 1.4 APG and 0.9 TPG.  That's not a point guard.  Sam had the best A/TO on the team last year.  He shouldn't be the point guard either.

Assist percentage is a better stat IMO.  Howard was second to Rowsey.

Junior's sophomore year, he and Reggie Smith were the only PG's on the team.  DJO, Buycks, and Vander were all off the ball guards IMO, so Junior was going to have a higher usage than Greg did this year when he was playing behind Rowsey. 

I think Markus can run the point too, I just think our offense will be better if he is playing off the ball/running of screens/catch and shoot.

Dwight played point a lot that year.  Cadougan only started five games.  Dwight was the guy who started and played about 10 mpg more per game.  My recollection is that Junior came on toward the end of the year.  (In fact I remember that being a hot topic here on Scoop at the time.)

Regardless I think Markus is better off the ball too.  But I don't think Greg is the option at point.  It's either going to be Markus or someone who isn't on the roster right now.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

A/TO is a stat that someone made up because they decided that they liked PGs with high assists and low turnovers... Even though the two really have nothing to do with each other.

[PistolBrad]

The point guard's main job is to initiate the offense and get/keep the ball moving.  Quantifying this is really hard because a PG could set up an open shot but have 3 guys touch the ball before the shot eventually happens (see Steph Curry).  My biggest issue with Howard at point is not statistical but with the fact the ball tends to stagnate in his hands, which I think is very correctable imho

[Its DJOver]

Regardless I think Markus is better off the ball too.  But I don't think Greg is the option at point.  It's either going to be Markus or someone who isn't on the roster right now.

Thanks for the info on A/TO ratio.

First line of the thread I said that I think we still need a grad transfer.  The problem with that is that we run into the same problem 12 months from now.  We may have DJ Carton in the fold by then, but with all the talent on the team I'm not sure I'd want a true freshman leading us in minutes at the PG position.  Markus could be running the point then, but it sounds like we agree that the best case scenario doesn't have him at PG.  If we go grad transfer again for the 19-20 season that is getting dangerously close to the constant roster turnover/short term players that we had under Buzz.

What position do you see Greg playing?  He's gonna be behind Markus for the next 2 years if he plays the 2, he'll be behind Sam and Jamal at the 3.  If I were Greg, looking down the road, I'd see the most available minutes at the 1 as a Junior and a Senior.  Knowing that, I'd work primarily on developing PG skills.  And lets be honest, if he could develop those skills, we'd all love a 6-3 PG, especially after this year.

[GGGG]

Greg's role will depend on who we bring in.  If it is a guy like the guy from Fordham, he likely will be the first guard off the bench.  If it is a "lower level" PG, then I think Markus and Greg are the starters.

Regardless, first guard off the bench is a fine role.  Probably will increase his minutes from 18 to the 22 per game range.  When MU goes small, he may play with both of them. 

Don't get stuck on positions.  There will be plenty of opportunities for Greg.

[Its DJOver]

I just know that we've traditionally gone with 3 guard line-ups (I view Sacar as a guard, even though I know not everybody does), and next year we will likely be running more 3 big line-ups, which means 40 fewer total minutes for guards.  Markus has the off guard position sewn up until he leaves, which would mean that Greg will likely have to develop the skillset to run point or he will see his minutes drop.  The point of this thread was to suggest that he has the ability to do just that, and suggest my belief that he will do that.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

My biggest issue with Howard at point is not statistical but with the fact the ball tends to stagnate in his hands, which I think is very correctable imho

I agree with this analysis.  Markus is a two guard.  A frustration I had with him last year was the tendency to put his head down when he decided to drive; the ball was seldom coming out of his hands.  I don't know if it was lack of vision, I suspect it is the fact that he has never been asked to be a distributor.

Kid is such a hard worker and so coachable that I think he *could* fill the role, but IMO we'd be much better with a true one guard and let Markus excel at what he is good at already.

[MU82]

Like stock investors, sports fans tend to fear the unknown.

Elliott is the unknown.

Most Scoopers who have commented in this and other threads are convinced he can't play PG based on the very limited sample we saw this past season when he obviously was playing hurt. Even those of us who begrudgingly concede that maybe he could play a little PG - I'm in this camp - would rather not have to find out whether or not he could be the main PG next season.

Heck, for all we've seen of Markus these last two seasons, his ability to be the main PG is still unknown ... and that worries us, too.

It's going to be interesting watching the whole thing develop. Like most Scoopers, I continue to hope Wojo can land a starting PG in free agency. And like most Scoopers, I worry about next season's potential being wasted if we don't shore up the important position.

But wouldn't it be something if either Elliott or Markus (or both) do at least as well as Rowsey did from a ballhandling, team-organization and passing standpoint?

I'm too lazy to look back at old posts, but I sure don't remember dozens of Scoopers (or even ones of Scoopers) saying in April 2017: "You just wait; Rowsey's gonna be a real good PG next season."