Loyola

[WarriorDad]

This is what I keep thinking. We can say one thing today but if they go and win it all, everything changes for their future. Could they become another Gonzaga? Why not?

People lose touch with how long it took Gonzaga to be Gonzaga and last year was the first time in 19 years they actually went to a Final Four.

In those 19 years, an Elite 8 to start it then the next one came 16 years later.  It's hard. A lot of burnouts along the way as a 1, 2 or 3 seed not making it out of the first weekend.  Last year they finally got to the Final Four.

Gonzaga has the advantage of a coaching staff that has stayed largely the same for a long time.  Mark Few has been there almost 30 years, a head coach for 19. They have an on campus arena built in the mid 2000's that seats 6000.  They only have to fight two other legit D1 programs in the state (Seattle U is way down the list). 

Loyola had gone to zero tournaments since George H.W. Bush was president, their last one was during the Reagan administration until this year.  There is a reason for that.  Maybe the good Jesuits in Chicago decide to go all in after this run and many of the alumni most certainly will push them to do so, but even commitment doesn't mean success.  LUC plays in a 4,900 seat arena opened in the mid 1990's that screams mid major to me.  Any of you others that have been there, feel free to disagree. 

[MU82]

Loyola is the poster child for the concept known as "recency bias."

The program has been irrelevant for decades. It takes a lot of imagination to even speculate that it possibly could become the next Gonzaga.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

That's a great article Dr B. Enjoyed the read

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Pretty sure the Gentile Arena opened much more recently than the 1990s. Or at least there was a major renovation in the 2000s, but maybe I'm wrong.

I know I played a couple of volleyball matches at Loyola and went to camps there but maybe it was in a different gym.

[Galway Eagle]

Loyola is the poster child for the concept known as "recency bias."

The program has been irrelevant for decades. It takes a lot of imagination to even speculate that it possibly could become the next Gonzaga.

This. Not to mention their roster just isn't set up for back to back success. In the absolute best case scenario Loyola doesn't see a recruiting uptick till next year which, unless it's some unreal recruits, puts them about three years from another legit team. So I don't see how they possibly get staying power.

[Galway Eagle]

Pretty sure the Gentile Center opened much more recently than the 1990s. Or at least there was a major renovation in the 2000s, but maybe I'm wrong.

Did a big upgrade in 2017

[WarriorDad]

Pretty sure the Gentile Arena opened much more recently than the 1990s. Or at least there was a major renovation in the 2000s, but maybe I'm wrong.

I know I played a couple of volleyball matches at Loyola and went to camps there but maybe it was in a different gym.

Opened in 1996.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_J._Gentile_Arena

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Opened in 1996.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_J._Gentile_Arena

Time flies, eh?

[SaveOD238]

On the subject of youth, this is what Pat Forde noticed about the Big Dance:

"Of the 20 starters on the Final Four teams, just three are freshmen: forward Isaiah Livers of Michigan and centers Cameron Krutwig of Loyola and Omari Spellman of Villanova. Livers is a nominal starter who actually plays backup minutes. Spellman was redshirted last year for academic reasons. If any of the three go pro after playing one season in college, it would come as a considerable surprise.

The rest of the starters, by class: five true seniors; four fourth-year juniors; four true juniors; two third-year sophomores; and two true sophomores."

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/incredible-final-four-field-missing-031830782.html

I'll let you all take from that what you will.

[SaveOD238]

For what it's worth, next year's starting lineup could easily be...

A true senior (Heldt)
Two true juniors (Markus and Sam)
Two fourth-year juniors (Sacar and Ed)

And the following year could then be...

Two true seniors (Markus and Sam)
Two fifth-year seniors (Sacar and Ed)
A true junior (Theo or Jamal) or a "third"-year sophomore (Joey)

[D'Lo Brown]

People lose touch with how long it took Gonzaga to be Gonzaga and last year was the first time in 19 years they actually went to a Final Four.

In those 19 years, an Elite 8 to start it then the next one came 16 years later.  It's hard. A lot of burnouts along the way as a 1, 2 or 3 seed not making it out of the first weekend.  Last year they finally got to the Final Four.

Gonzaga has the advantage of a coaching staff that has stayed largely the same for a long time.  Mark Few has been there almost 30 years, a head coach for 19. They have an on campus arena built in the mid 2000's that seats 6000.  They only have to fight two other legit D1 programs in the state (Seattle U is way down the list). 

Loyola had gone to zero tournaments since George H.W. Bush was president, their last one was during the Reagan administration until this year.  There is a reason for that.  Maybe the good Jesuits in Chicago decide to go all in after this run and many of the alumni most certainly will push them to do so, but even commitment doesn't mean success.  LUC plays in a 4,900 seat arena opened in the mid 1990's that screams mid major to me.  Any of you others that have been there, feel free to disagree.

Apologies for losing touch there, big guy. Don't know what got into me!

[warriorchick]

[Silkk the Shaka]

For what it's worth, next year's starting lineup could easily be...

A true senior (Heldt)
Two true juniors (Markus and Sam)
Two fourth-year juniors (Sacar and Ed)

And the following year could then be...

Two true seniors (Markus and Sam)
Two fifth-year seniors (Sacar and Ed)
A true junior (Theo or Jamal) or a "third"-year sophomore (Joey)

Yep, all the old teams in the Big East ahead of us this year will be young, and we'll be old. It's gonna be great! No reason we can't challenge for the title the next two years.

[Goose]

Ellenson

With all due respect, where does talent play into your thought process? Villanova may be an "old" team, but they are an extremely talented team. In addition, they have won on big stage their entire careers. I guess I am missing how MU jumps to that level simply on being an older team.  Next year, the SR. class is made up of one role player, at best, and a walk on. The JR. class has two very good players and hopefully and established big man transfer. The Soph class is made up of three star players that did not distinguish themselves as prime time players this season.

While I definitely get that an experienced team is a positive, I am missing on the role high level talent or coaching fits into the equation. Again, I hope I am wrong, but I am not buying into that the experience is simply enough to put MU in national spotlight. The BE will we be weaker next season and that will help in the regular season, but might be more difficult in March.

[Galway Eagle]

Ellenson

With all due respect, where does talent play into your thought process? Villanova may be an "old" team, but they are an extremely talented team. In addition, they have won on big stage their entire careers. I guess I am missing how MU jumps to that level simply on being an older team.  Next year, the SR. class is made up of one role player, at best, and a walk on. The JR. class has two very good players and hopefully and established big man transfer. The Soph class is made up of three star players that did not distinguish themselves as prime time players this season.

While I definitely get that an experienced team is a positive, I am missing on the role high level talent or coaching fits into the equation. Again, I hope I am wrong, but I am not buying into that the experience is simply enough to put MU in national spotlight. The BE will we be weaker next season and that will help in the regular season, but might be more difficult in March.

You forgot about Sacar on your list. As far as where we go in March i think this year should've taught all of us that it's a crap shoot. I'd personally take X's year with zero March success without a second thought

[Its DJOver]

Ellenson

With all due respect, where does talent play into your thought process? Villanova may be an "old" team, but they are an extremely talented team. In addition, they have won on big stage their entire careers. I guess I am missing how MU jumps to that level simply on being an older team.  Next year, the SR. class is made up of one role player, at best, and a walk on. The JR. class has two very good players and hopefully and established big man transfer. The Soph class is made up of three star players that did not distinguish themselves as prime time players this season.

While I definitely get that an experienced team is a positive, I am missing on the role high level talent or coaching fits into the equation. Again, I hope I am wrong, but I am not buying into that the experience is simply enough to put MU in national spotlight. The BE will we be weaker next season and that will help in the regular season, but might be more difficult in March.

Think this is pretty spot on Goose, we should be better and teams around us should take a step back, but I still don't see enough pieces for a second weekend team yet.  I think we should still be safely in, but not many teams go from quarterfinals of NIT to S16 or better.  I think not going one and done will be extremely important for building for the 19-20 season, because as good as it is to win NIT games for experience, it doesn't come close to winning a NCAA game in terms of value of experience.  Learning to win in March is important, but learning to win big games is even more important.

[Goose]

Boxer

I did forget about Sacar. Sacar is a question mark to me. I love what he did this season and he was most improved guy, IMO. Not sure if his offensive was strictly based off of style of play or not. He definitely leaned to finish at the hoop and hope that holds true again next season.

[MU82]

Ellenson

With all due respect, where does talent play into your thought process? Villanova may be an "old" team, but they are an extremely talented team. In addition, they have won on big stage their entire careers. I guess I am missing how MU jumps to that level simply on being an older team.  Next year, the SR. class is made up of one role player, at best, and a walk on. The JR. class has two very good players and hopefully and established big man transfer. The Soph class is made up of three star players that did not distinguish themselves as prime time players this season.

While I definitely get that an experienced team is a positive, I am missing on the role high level talent or coaching fits into the equation. Again, I hope I am wrong, but I am not buying into that the experience is simply enough to put MU in national spotlight. The BE will we be weaker next season and that will help in the regular season, but might be more difficult in March.

Goose:

I don't want to put words into EFR's mouth, but I don't think he was saying that Marquette jumps to Villanova's level simply by being an older team.

That will be one factor - possibly a big one - that helps us achieve more next season.

Other factors: in addition to getting older, some of our players (especially the freshmen, but others too) should get better; Elliott and Sam should be healthier; Morrow and Joey join the fold; the defense is bound to improve (can't get worse, right? ha!); Wojo also will be more experienced; the rest of our league looks like it will not be quite as strong; etc.

As a freshman, Bridges averaged 6 points and 3 rebounds for Nova. As a sophomore, 9.8 and 4.6. When you watched him those first two seasons, did you say: "Wow, that kid definitely will be an All-American candidate in 2017-18?"

When you watched Jae Crowder as a junior, did you say, "Player of the Year next season, no doubt"? When you watched Jimmy Butler as a sophomore, did you say, "This guy will be an NBA All-Star"?

I am NOT saying that any of our players are Bridges, Jae or Jimmy. What I am saying is that good, hard-working players do improve.

I know you think we lack "talent." I think we have a decent amount of talent - not as much as some teams, but a fair amount, including two of the very best shooters in the entire country - and more is on the way. You are free to disagree.

And yes, we will be more experienced all around next season. It will not be the only reason we take the next step, but it will be a reason, perhaps even a big reason.

Add all of that up, and it's why many (most?) of us believe next season is important for Wojo and the program. Barring catastrophic injuries or unexpected defections, there really will be no excuses. Nor should there be.

I happen to think there won't be any need for excuses because we're gonna have a kick-ass season! Can't wait!!

[DCHoopster]

Boxer

I did forget about Sacar. Sacar is a question mark to me. I love what he did this season and he was most improved guy, IMO. Not sure if his offensive was strictly based off of style of play or not. He definitely leaned to finish at the hoop and hope that holds true again next season.

Sacar will play meaningful minutes next year just because he physically can D up.  His offense was evolving all year and expect it to be better next year with a summer
to work on his outside shot.   I can see Sacar, Elliott, Cain, Morrow, and John at the end of games.  Lots of length.  Sam will never be a good defender, not sure if he
will even be healthy to play next year.  I could see a redshirt year for him, we will see.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Ellenson

With all due respect, where does talent play into your thought process? Villanova may be an "old" team, but they are an extremely talented team. In addition, they have won on big stage their entire careers. I guess I am missing how MU jumps to that level simply on being an older team.  Next year, the SR. class is made up of one role player, at best, and a walk on. The JR. class has two very good players and hopefully and established big man transfer. The Soph class is made up of three star players that did not distinguish themselves as prime time players this season.

While I definitely get that an experienced team is a positive, I am missing on the role high level talent or coaching fits into the equation. Again, I hope I am wrong, but I am not buying into that the experience is simply enough to put MU in national spotlight. The BE will we be weaker next season and that will help in the regular season, but might be more difficult in March.

Yes, they are extremely talented and old. They lose 2 extremely talented old players, First team AA types. That's the point. We gain 2 6'8" immediate impact talents, one of which is old.

[DCHoopster]

Yes, they are extremely talented and old. They lose 2 extremely talented old players, First team AA types. That's the point. We gain 2 6'8" immediate impact talents, one of which is old.

Spellman is the difference.  Can go inside and out, Matt is the 10th best center in the Big East.  Theo might overtake him, if not.  Weak in the middle.  Quiverly and DeVincencio will be really good.  Right now MU can not guard him.  Put Spellman on MU and they would be a Top 5 team.

[Goose]

MU82

I do not disagree MU has some talent. I just do not think it national scene talent at this point. I believe EFR noted we should be competing for BE titles the next two years and that caught my eye. That might be wishful, or very very wishful, thinking for next season.

[Its DJOver]

I think people are misunderstanding what the term "compete for conference titles" should mean.  The Big East had two great teams and a very large middle of the pack.  If PC doesn't lose to DePaul at home, they put some separation above the middle of the pack teams.  Does that mean that they competed for the title? Absolutely not.  USC only finished 2 games out of the PAC 12 title, but anyone who watched the conference knew that it was a one horse race.  I expect us to finish above the middle of the pack teams, but just finishing 2nd or 3rd does not mean that you are truly competitive in the title race.  I don't think we'll be anywhere near Nova next year, but that's not the worst thing, because I think they'll be one of the best teams in the country again. 

[Goose]

DJOver

My definition of competing for BE championship is having legit chance of winning it. So, if we are not competing for BC crown next year, when does "that" happen?

[Silkk the Shaka]

Spellman is the difference.  Can go inside and out, Matt is the 10th best center in the Big East.  Theo might overtake him, if not.  Weak in the middle.  Quiverly and DeVincencio will be really good.  Right now MU can not guard him.  Put Spellman on MU and they would be a Top 5 team.

Where does Ed Morrow factor into your analysis?