ESPN Article on For-Profit Grand Canyon U

[WayOfTheWarrior]

Thought this was an interesting read for GCU as an example of a "successful" for-profit university. They are currently 4th in the WAC at 17-10. Lost to the Johnnies by 8 earlier in the year.

Seems to be some bad blood between them and PAC-12, especially ASU. They're trying to apply for nonprofit status to relieve property tax burdens amongst other things.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22437323/grand-canyon-only-profit-team-division-is-building-monster-desert

[77ncaachamps]

I guess the approach to them as they rise in the rankings is: "If they're 'for profit' then they can afford the 'buy games' more than other schools."

With "79 percent of its revenue from federal student financial aid" it will be interesting to see how they will be affected as the tax reform bill eliminated the dependent exemption.

[WarriorFan]

Visited them with my son during his university search.  Going in, we didn't know anything of their story.  Their sales pitch - "If you're stupid (we don't care about grade point), religious (a letter from your pastor has more impact on admissions than your grades), indecisive (i.e. likely to stay 5+ years due to changing majors), and can get financial aid, we want you".  Never been more put off by a pitch in my life.  Pretty pleased my son caught on as well. 

Mind you I don't mind the concept of "for profit" education.  I think it could drive more accountability than currently exists in many universities if done properly. 

[Babybluejeans]

Visited them with my son during his university search.  Going in, we didn't know anything of their story.  Their sales pitch - "If you're stupid (we don't care about grade point), religious (a letter from your pastor has more impact on admissions than your grades), indecisive (i.e. likely to stay 5+ years due to changing majors), and can get financial aid, we want you".  Never been more put off by a pitch in my life.  Pretty pleased my son caught on as well. 

Mind you I don't mind the concept of "for profit" education.  I think it could drive more accountability than currently exists in many universities if done properly.

As you identified, it isn't done properly. It's fraudulent.

[GooooMarquette]

Visited them with my son during his university search.  Going in, we didn't know anything of their story.  Their sales pitch - "If you're stupid (we don't care about grade point), religious (a letter from your pastor has more impact on admissions than your grades), indecisive (i.e. likely to stay 5+ years due to changing majors), and can get financial aid, we want you".  Never been more put off by a pitch in my life.  Pretty pleased my son caught on as well. 

Mind you I don't mind the concept of "for profit" education.  I think it could drive more accountability than currently exists in many universities if done properly.

Crazy.  Regrettably, there are plenty of people who check all of those boxes.

[tower912]

Squirmy.

[lawdog77]

Doesn't Markus' father work there as strength and conditioning coach?

[Benny B]

Doesn't Markus' father work there as strength and conditioning coach?

Former.

[StillAWarrior]

Visited them with my son during his university search.  Going in, we didn't know anything of their story.  Their sales pitch - "If you're stupid (we don't care about grade point), religious (a letter from your pastor has more impact on admissions than your grades), indecisive (i.e. likely to stay 5+ years due to changing majors), and can get financial aid, we want you".  Never been more put off by a pitch in my life.  Pretty pleased my son caught on as well. 

Mind you I don't mind the concept of "for profit" education.  I think it could drive more accountability than currently exists in many universities if done properly.

Not trying to be contrary, but I honestly think that attitude permeates an awful lot of schools -- whether for profit or non-profit.  And if you take out the "religious" part, it applies to a huge number of schools.  Higher education is a huge business, and lots of schools -- including non-profits -- are willing to accept pretty much anyone in order to get that sweet, sweet financial aid money flowing in.

This is not a defense of Grand Canyon, but just offering my opinion that they're not particularly unique in this regard.

[Eldon]

Not trying to be contrary, but I honestly think that attitude permeates an awful lot of schools -- whether for profit or non-profit.  And if you take out the "religious" part, it applies to a huge number of schools.  Higher education is a huge business, and lots of schools -- including non-profits -- are willing to accept pretty much anyone in order to get that sweet, sweet financial aid money flowing in.

This is not a defense of Grand Canyon, but just offering my opinion that they're not particularly unique in this regard.

I respectfully disagree.  I'm curious, do you have a particular example in mind?

There are certainly schools who let "anybody" in, but such lax standards serve the purpose of allowing students to move up the socioeconomic ladder.  I don't doubt that there are a few non-profits who have the FAFSA-is-bling mindset, but I don't believe this to be a majority, or even a significant minority.  One reason I believe this is personal, anecdotal evidence.  The other reason is that if non-profit schools did have this mindset, there wouldn't be a market for for-profit schools.

In any case, for-profit schools are--as a whole--fundamentally different from non-profit schools.  For-profit schools are a huge black eye on higher education in America.  They certainly should have their federal funds pulled.  And I even think that there is a good case to be made that they engaged in false advertising.

I don't know the details of Grand Canyon U, but if they are truly a religious-based school, there should be no reason that they cannot be non-profit.  Thankfully, the phrase "for-profit" has become tainted, and I would think that the for-profit schools would jump at the chance to be non-profit.

[Benny B]

I respectfully disagree.  I'm curious, do you have a particular example in mind?

Dash schools would seem like a logical place to start.

There are certainly schools who let "anybody" in, but such lax standards serve the purpose of allowing students to move up the socioeconomic ladder.  I don't doubt that there are a few non-profits who have the FAFSA-is-bling mindset, but I don't believe this to be a majority, or even a significant minority.  One reason I believe this is personal, anecdotal evidence.  The other reason is that if non-profit schools did have this mindset, there wouldn't be a market for for-profit schools.

Not so sure about that.  We all know the for-profits are mostly diploma mills with questionable academic standards, and while the non-profits seem to have higher academic standards, we also know that those academic standards are often - shall we say - "bent" when there are external factors involved. 

Nevertheless, fors- and nons- each attract (and market to) a completely different student profile... convenience and accessibility are more determinant than academics.... but the bottom line here is that every college, for or non, is going to accept as many students as they possibly can - especially the smaller institutions.  Most would be surprised how many schools these days rely more on attrition rather than evaluation as their method of selection.

[StillAWarrior]

I respectfully disagree.  I'm curious, do you have a particular example in mind?

There are certainly schools who let "anybody" in, but such lax standards serve the purpose of allowing students to move up the socioeconomic ladder.  I don't doubt that there are a few non-profits who have the FAFSA-is-bling mindset, but I don't believe this to be a majority, or even a significant minority.  One reason I believe this is personal, anecdotal evidence.  The other reason is that if non-profit schools did have this mindset, there wouldn't be a market for for-profit schools.

In any case, for-profit schools are--as a whole--fundamentally different from non-profit schools.  For-profit schools are a huge black eye on higher education in America.  They certainly should have their federal funds pulled.  And I even think that there is a good case to be made that they engaged in false advertising.

I don't know the details of Grand Canyon U, but if they are truly a religious-based school, there should be no reason that they cannot be non-profit.  Thankfully, the phrase "for-profit" has become tainted, and I would think that the for-profit schools would jump at the chance to be non-profit.

Admittedly, no specific examples.  My post was not intended as a defense of for profit universities; I'm not a fan.  It seems to me that our disagreement relates more to the motive of the school than the practice.  There are sub-par universities out there that are genuinely motivated by "allowing students to move up the socioeconomic ladder."  That is a commendable motive.  That said, I believe many of those schools are motivated to get students enrolled and try to keep them enrolled because doing so provides the revenue -- often in the form of government-backed financial aid -- to keep the school going and growing.  Schools need to keep the money flowing in.  And I believe there are plenty of non-profit colleges and universities who are very committed to providing a college education, but are also very interested in bringing in those dollars.  And I'm not really suggesting that there is anything wrong with that.  Any organization that has a mission -- whether it be educating under-privileged students or lining someone's pockets -- wants to bring in money in support of that mission.

[GGGG]

Not trying to be contrary, but I honestly think that attitude permeates an awful lot of schools -- whether for profit or non-profit.  And if you take out the "religious" part, it applies to a huge number of schools.  Higher education is a huge business, and lots of schools -- including non-profits -- are willing to accept pretty much anyone in order to get that sweet, sweet financial aid money flowing in.

This is not a defense of Grand Canyon, but just offering my opinion that they're not particularly unique in this regard.

I would agree that there are not-for-profit schools that do this.  But they aren't doing this to enrich shareholders, but to merely stay open.

There are a couple small, Catholic colleges in Wisconsin that would close tomorrow without access to financial aid.  Furthermore, they probably need to stay open to support their sponsoring religious orders, which are dwindling in numbers and aging considerably.

[StillAWarrior]

I would agree that there are not-for-profit schools that do this.  But they aren't doing this to enrich shareholders, but to merely stay open.

I agree entirely, as I tried to explain in my last post.