How have we taken a step back?

[Its DJOver]

...Ners...? Is that you?

Slightly offended that you think I'm Ners.  I personally think that Derrick would be a great fit on this team right now, a pass first point that is an above average defender is exactly what this team needs.  My point about Sacar is that if teams sag off him on D, his ability to drive is greatly reduced because even though he can get a half step on his defender with his ball fake, they are able to recover, and he just ends up pulling it out most of the time.  His greatest offensive weapon is his ability to move without the ball.  I think that Harry playing has helped this tremendously because he draws the D in and is a good enough passer to find a cutting Sacar.  Now sometimes he forces it, but it is usually a good idea.

[tower912]

jesmu84, I think you were right about floorslapper.   

[WarriorFan]

The difference, my esteemed friends, is Matt Heldt.

Reducing his minutes takes a guy who is nearly always in the right place and whom everyone knows exactly what they will get from for either of two guys who are lost half the time.

Yes, both have higher upside and both are greater offensive threats, but the "system" is not working as well when Heldt is on the bench.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

The difference, my esteemed friends, is Matt Heldt.

Reducing his minutes takes a guy who is nearly always in the right place and whom everyone knows exactly what they will get from for either of two guys who are lost half the time.

Yes, both have higher upside and both are greater offensive threats, but the "system" is not working as well when Heldt is on the bench.

No. It's our shooters not hitting shots.

[GGGG]

If Luke was so much better, his minutes wouldn't have dropped.  Sandy, Haanif and Traci were all here for three semesters, plus summer school before their Freshman year.  If they can't show improvement in their first two offseasons with the team, I'm not very optimistic that they would have made a huge jump with one or two more.  As for Sacar, I guess 6ppg is better than 0 so you're right there, but that's not the level of improvement I think we should expect after three years with the team.  Once again not saying Wojo is bad, just that this is his most inconsistent and weakest area.

Sorry, you were correct about Traci.  And if you are simply going to judge "improvement" by"points" I don't know what to tell you.  But Sacar is a serviceable player.

Luke's minutes went down because there was another option to back him up.  He still played 24 mpg.  And again, was better in almost every meaningful category.

I doubt that Wojo is any better or worse than the majority of coaches when it comes to player development.

[jesmu84]

Slightly offended that you think I'm Ners.  I personally think that Derrick would be a great fit on this team right now, a pass first point that is an above average defender is exactly what this team needs.  My point about Sacar is that if teams sag off him on D, his ability to drive is greatly reduced because even though he can get a half step on his defender with his ball fake, they are able to recover, and he just ends up pulling it out most of the time.  His greatest offensive weapon is his ability to move without the ball.  I think that Harry playing has helped this tremendously because he draws the D in and is a good enough passer to find a cutting Sacar.  Now sometimes he forces it, but it is usually a good idea.

Man. You're right. If only every player for Marquette had the ability to hit a 3 and drive at a high level. I can't believe that hasn't been our recruiting plan.

[Its DJOver]

Sorry, you were correct about Traci.  And if you are simply going to judge "improvement" by"points" I don't know what to tell you.  But Sacar is a serviceable player.

Luke's minutes went down because there was another option to back him up.  He still played 24 mpg.  And again, was better in almost every meaningful category.

I doubt that Wojo is any better or worse than the majority of coaches when it comes to player development.

Make no mistake I want Sacar to do well, but if he's getting 25mpg next year I think we're gonna have a problem.  I see no scenario where he starts next year with Sam likely moving to the 3, Ed starting at the 4 and hopefully a point guard TBD.  With Harry/ Joey the first off the bench, and Sacar's 25 evening out with Greg and Jamal, all at about 20.

Now I'm not trying to get the rep of being obsessed with a player the way Ners was with Derrick or whats his face was with Luke being the worst player in program history, my point was always that a player in his third year in the program getting 25mpg should be scoring more.   I'm sure his value add is higher than his ppg because he's still an above average defender, but unless he makes a large jump offensively this offseason, I think he will struggle to see the court.

[Its DJOver]

Man. You're right. If only every player for Marquette had the ability to hit a 3 and drive at a high level. I can't believe that hasn't been our recruiting plan.

Literally just said that Derrick would be a great fit on this team, but OK.  No guard should come off a red-shirt year and shoot 15% from three's especially when he knows that shooting threes is such a huge part of our offence.

[GGGG]

Make no mistake I want Sacar to do well, but if he's getting 25mpg next year I think we're gonna have a problem.  I see no scenario where he starts next year with Sam likely moving to the 3, Ed starting at the 4 and hopefully a point guard TBD.  With Harry/ Joey the first off the bench, and Sacar's 25 evening out with Greg and Jamal, all at about 20.

Now I'm not trying to get the rep of being obsessed with a player the way Ners was with Derrick or whats his face was with Luke being the worst player in program history, my point was always that a player in his third year in the program getting 25mpg should be scoring more.   I'm sure his value add is higher than his ppg because he's still an above average defender, but unless he makes a large jump offensively this offseason, I think he will struggle to see the court.

You are shifting goalposts.  You originally said that Sacar didn't improve.  He has improved.  But I agree with you that his numbers will likely decrease next year.  But that won't be due to Wojo - that will be due to talent surpassing him.

[jesmu84]

Literally just said that Derrick would be a great fit on this team, but OK.  No guard should come off a red-shirt year and shoot 15% from three's especially when he knows that shooting threes is such a huge part of our offence.

That's not his role.

[79Warrior]

The difference, my esteemed friends, is Matt Heldt.

Reducing his minutes takes a guy who is nearly always in the right place and whom everyone knows exactly what they will get from for either of two guys who are lost half the time.

Yes, both have higher upside and both are greater offensive threats, but the "system" is not working as well when Heldt is on the bench.

If he is the difference then we really are in trouble.

[bilsu]

Sam's stats may have increased, but you have to look at all of Wojo's players.
2014 Class:  Carlino wasn't around long enough for Wojo to have too  much of an effect on him, we knew he was gonna be a chucker and he was.  Sandy had a decent Freshman year but Wojo was never able to develop him into anything more than a Horizon League player.

2015 Class:  Henry,  see Carlino above.  Haanif, good Freshman year, Wojo didn't develop him.  Traci, good Freshman year, but wasn't able to develop, partly because Markus was taking his minutes, but still only a mid major player.  Matt, never going to be anything more than we though he was,  most of his improvement is on Todd Smith, not Wojo.  Sacar, has shown flashes, but with the minutes he gets, you would expect a red shirt sophomore to average more than 6 points.

2016 Class:  KR, see Carlino and Henry.  Markus and Sam have improved, shows hope for the future, but two out of eight isn't anything to write home about

2017 Class: We cannot yet say how Wojo develops this class until he gets another full summer with them, but I would say that the development of this class will save/ cost Wojo his job.  If they develop like Sandy and Haanif, then we will underachieve the next two years and Wojo will be gone.  If they develop, He'll be fine.  How will the be with another summer lifting and improving, IDk, but Wojo's track record has me nervous.

The only way that we would be experienced this year is if players didn't transfer.  Duane and Haanif would have helped this team defensively, but our record would be at most 1-2 games better right now.  Sandy and Traci would have no effect other than eating scholly's.

I think it is more about players like Haanif, Sandy, Traci and Duane being recruited over. Their time decreased and they decided to leave. Hard to have experience when older players are not willing to come off the bench.

[nyg]

The difference, my esteemed friends, is Matt Heldt.

Reducing his minutes takes a guy who is nearly always in the right place and whom everyone knows exactly what they will get from for either of two guys who are lost half the time.

Yes, both have higher upside and both are greater offensive threats, but the "system" is not working as well when Heldt is on the bench.

Uh, no...

In the last six games, Heldt has made two baskets, two.
Before you start with the defense he has played minimal minutes, in those minutes, he has 12 fouls.

Matt freezes when he gets the ball down low and has no clue as to what to do.  I believe his teammates are actually apprehensive to even throwing him the ball.  The only thing he does is runs out to foul line, sets a screen and runs back. 

Probably nice kid, the old "lots of energy" guy, but not the answer.  He had his chance, but Wojo probably believes he has to move on and play Theo/Harry.

[brewcity77]

Theo was great on Saturday and I'm not trying to take that away at all. I love his potential and physicality. However, the "he hasn't fouled out since" argument feels a bit hollow when he has had four games in that stretch where he logged 16 fouls in a combined 43 minutes. The most he played in any of those games was 16 minutes. In two of those games he had 6 and 7 combined minutes.

He's shown flashes of being better at not fouling, but it's certainly not a "fixed" issue as of yet. That includes his 4 fouls at Xavier in 16 minutes, which was less than 2 weeks ago, so it remains a present problem.

[Its DJOver]

I think it is more about players like Haanif, Sandy, Traci and Duane being recruited over. Their time decreased and they decided to leave. Hard to have experience when older players are not willing to come off the bench.

I think this can be attributed to players not adding elements to their game.  Once word got out that Haanif could only go left, teams adjusted and he couldn't add another aspect to his game.  Once it was known that Sandy was doing most of his damage on catch and shoot threes, teams adjusted and Sandy couldn't add a pull up jumper, partially because his release point was so low.  Word is now out that Sacar only scores around the rim so teams have adjusted and he has yet to respond.  This separates decent players from good ones.  The scouting report on Markus and Sam is that they are three points shooters so you have to chase them off the line.  Markus has developed a floater, and Sam has improved his post game.  Neither are as good at the newer elements, but they provide a different look for the defense which means that both Markus and Sam are still getting good looks.  You are either improving or regressing because the more you play the more other teams will know how to defend you.  You always have to be adding moves to your skillset.   

[ATL MU Warrior]

Literally just said that Derrick would be a great fit on this team, but OK.  No guard should come off a red-shirt year and shoot 15% from three's especially when he knows that shooting threes is such a huge part of our offence.

We have plenty of three point shooters. The last thing we need is another guy camped out at the three point line.

Sacar's role is to play defense on opponent's best guard/wing and attack the basket on offense. He is a probably our best defender (although with this team that's like being the tallest midget) and he can be electric attacking the rim, although inconsistent at finishing. Wish he were a more consistent free throw shooter. 

He understands his job and is doing it well, most of the time.  Might he lose minutes next year?  Maybe, if so that's a great thing, but he's an important piece. 

[Its DJOver]

We have plenty of three point shooters. The last thing we need is another guy camped out at the three point line.

Sacar's role is to play defense on opponent's best guard/wing and attack the basket on offense. He is a probably our best defender (although with this team that's like being the tallest midget) and he can be electric attacking the rim, although inconsistent at finishing. Wish he were a more consistent free throw shooter. 

He understands his job and is doing it well, most of the time.  Might he lose minutes next year?  Maybe, if so that's a great thing, but he's an important piece. 

We take a lot of three's but we do not have a lot of three point shooters.  Over 80% of our threes on the year have come from three players.  Those three plus Cain are the only ones that really need to be guarded out to the three point line, and Cain only has 40 attempts on the year.

[ATL MU Warrior]

We take a lot of three's but we do not have a lot of three point shooters.  Over 80% of our threes on the year have come from three players.  Those three plus Cain are the only ones that really need to be guarded out to the three point line, and Cain only has 40 attempts on the year.

Didn't say we have a lot of three point shooters. I said we have plenty. "Enough" might have been a better choice. We need guys who can take advantage of the space/lanes created by those shooters by driving the ball to the rim. Our offense bogs down when we get one-dimensional and shoot too many threes so the last thing we need is another bomber.  Sacar fills that role better than anybody else on the team right now.

[WhiteTrash]

I doubt that Wojo is any better or worse than the majority of coaches when it comes to player development.

How do we reconcile that fact with him being paid in the top 10% of college basketball coaches?

[Its DJOver]

Didn't say we have a lot of three point shooters. I said we have plenty. "Enough" might have been a better choice. We need guys who can take advantage of the space/lanes created by those shooters by driving the ball to the rim. Our offense bogs down when we get one-dimensional and shoot too many threes so the last thing we need is another bomber.  Sacar fills that role better than anybody else on the team right now.

My apologies, I misinterpreted your post, and I completely agree that we need slashers, I'm just not convinced Sacar can succeed in that role.  When teams know that they only need to guard Sacar 15 feet from the basket, they can sag more, and help if someone is driving.  I wouldn't classify Jamal or Greg as three point shooters but they have shown the ability to hit the wide open three at a respectable clip, which means that the scouting report on them will be that they need to be closed down hard, which will make it easier for them to drive.  Once they get better bodies on them, I think they will far surpass Sacar in this role, especially since their defense could very easily catch his as well. 

[jaygall31]

Uh, no...

In the last six games, Heldt has made two baskets, two.
Before you start with the defense he has played minimal minutes, in those minutes, he has 12 fouls.

Matt freezes when he gets the ball down low and has no clue as to what to do.  I believe his teammates are actually apprehensive to even throwing him the ball.  The only thing he does is runs out to foul line, sets a screen and runs back. 

Probably nice kid, the old "lots of energy" guy, but not the answer.  He had his chance, but Wojo probably believes he has to move on and play Theo/Harry.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think WarriorFan's initial post had to deal with Matt on defense? At least that's what I thought. Which makes more sense.

[WarriorFan]

Uh, no...

In the last six games, Heldt has made two baskets, two.
Before you start with the defense he has played minimal minutes, in those minutes, he has 12 fouls.

Matt freezes when he gets the ball down low and has no clue as to what to do.  I believe his teammates are actually apprehensive to even throwing him the ball.  The only thing he does is runs out to foul line, sets a screen and runs back. 

Probably nice kid, the old "lots of energy" guy, but not the answer.  He had his chance, but Wojo probably believes he has to move on and play Theo/Harry.

Don't want to get in a battle and completely understand your point, but basketball is a team game and teams with effective systems win.  Matt had a way of being in the right place and doing the right things that gave Sam / Rowsey / Howard (the real threats) more good looks.  He's not out there to score - he's out there to make the system work, set screens, grab boards, box out, etc.  Don't measure him by his stats, measure him by the other guy's stats when he's out there.

[nyg]

Don't want to get in a battle and completely understand your point, but basketball is a team game and teams with effective systems win.  Matt had a way of being in the right place and doing the right things that gave Sam / Rowsey / Howard (the real threats) more good looks.  He's not out there to score - he's out there to make the system work, set screens, grab boards, box out, etc.  Don't measure him by his stats, measure him by the other guy's stats when he's out there.

Yeah, no problem.  Different opinions are good at times and I see your point also, but I still believe Wojo has made up his mind.  Heck, maybe Matt starts tomorrow for all I know, he had his best game of the year against Delgado the last time. 

[ATL MU Warrior]

My apologies, I misinterpreted your post, and I completely agree that we need slashers, I'm just not convinced Sacar can succeed in that role.  When teams know that they only need to guard Sacar 15 feet from the basket, they can sag more, and help if someone is driving.  I wouldn't classify Jamal or Greg as three point shooters but they have shown the ability to hit the wide open three at a respectable clip, which means that the scouting report on them will be that they need to be closed down hard, which will make it easier for them to drive.  Once they get better bodies on them, I think they will far surpass Sacar in this role, especially since their defense could very easily catch his as well.

No worries...I think we pretty much agree.

[GGGG]

How do we reconcile that fact with him being paid in the top 10% of college basketball coaches?

I don't really care what he is paid.  I don't pay his salary.  Doesn't even enter the equation.