X-crement

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

But all of that is partially in the control of people not on Marquette's team.  Standing at the free throw line is entirely in Marquette's control.  It's the exact same shot for Marquette as it is for Xavier, whereas not all field goal attempts are exactly the same for both teams, not all calls are exactly the same for both teams, etc.

Marquette had a chance to shoot free throws just as well as Xavier and didn't.

Free throw percentage mattered.

FT% always matters. Just never very much. But this has been explained to you see feel free to have the last word.

[rocky_warrior]

But that's the entire point of "FTs no matta."

FTs no matta is a dumb statement.  Yes, there is a point behind it, but on it's face the statement is wrong. 

It was annoying enough to have JB arguing it.  It's even more annoying to have you beating the drum.  FWIW.

[GGGG]

FTs no matta is a dumb statement.  Yes, there is a point behind it, but on it's face the statement is wrong. 

It was annoying enough to have JB arguing it.  It's even more annoying to have you beating the drum.  FWIW.

Well I rarely say it.  It's just a stupid catch phrase.  I'm simply arguing the point behind it.

[MUBurrow]

FTs no matta is a dumb statement.  Yes, there is a point behind it, but on it's face the statement is wrong. 

It was annoying enough to have JB arguing it.  It's even more annoying to have you beating the drum.  FWIW.

Isn't the point of 'FTs no matta' both to highlight the relatively small impact it has on outcomes, but also to make fun of the strange, vaguely moralistic way we talk about FTs? See:

But all of that is partially in the control of people not on Marquette's team.  Standing at the free throw line is entirely in Marquette's control.  It's the exact same shot for Marquette as it is for Xavier, whereas not all field goal attempts are exactly the same for both teams, not all calls are exactly the same for both teams, etc.

Marquette had a chance to shoot free throws just as well as Xavier and didn't.

Focusing on missed FTs, and assigning some greater basketball failing to missing FTs than to other basketball plays seems lazy to me. Because its a discrete, unopposed play with the clock stopped, its easy for us to focus on them more than the third offensive set in five straight minutes of run time. But the whole point of advanced stats is to overcome these attention biases to help highlight what really matters. Sure it would be nice if the FTs went in, but it doesn't deserve the disproportionate place it holds in our collective memory. If you're Theo John, shooting 75% from the line is a much taller hill to climb than beasting 14 rebounds per 40. Its just lazy to drop "he should make his free throws because there's no one else out there, and if he did, we woulda won!"

[tower912]

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400988549

Box score.   Heldt + Anim, 28 minutes, 0 pts.    Theo, 9 minutes, one rebound.    X wins rebounds 37-34, so basically a push.   MU had fewer turnovers and  15 threes to 7.   The only category with a clear advantage for X was free throws. 

[rocky_warrior]

Isn't the point of 'FTs no matta' both to highlight the relatively small impact it has on outcomes, but also to make fun of the strange, vaguely moralistic way we talk about FTs?

I think it's easier to make fun of those guys that can't handle folks talking about making or missing a few FTS to alter the course of a game.  I mean really, making or missing a few FTs WOULD have altered the course of the game (better or worse, who knows!).  A lecture about FT rate doesn't matter, no matter how much it's point is accurate in the sense of the four factors.

#FTRateLectureNoMatta

[79Warrior]

Wonder if is the beginning of the end for Matty, hardly saw any minutes in the second half.

The kid works hard and has done everything that has been asked of him in 2.5 years, but Theo keeps improving every game, Froling is starting to get his feet underneath him and there is an even bigger logjam in the front court next season.

Matt had a stat line of zeros and a few 1's. Hard to see how he is not going to be option 3 soon.

[damuts222]

Matt had a stat line of zeros and a few 1's. Hard to see how he is not going to be option 3 soon.

Unfortunately for Matt he provides zero offensive threat. The high screens the defenders aren't worried about him. With Froling he can shoot the three and Theo has is gotten more comfortable on the offensive side of the ball as well.

[MUBurrow]

I think it's easier to make fun of those guys that can't handle folks talking about making or missing a few FTS to alter the course of a game.  I mean really, making or missing a few FTs WOULD have altered the course of the game (better or worse, who knows!).  A lecture about FT rate doesn't matter, no matter how much it's point is accurate in the sense of the four factors.

#FTRateLectureNoMatta

That's fair. I don't have an issue when it sticks to "shoot, woulda been nice to hit a couple more freebies." But there just isn't much to say about it beyond that.  Pretty quick we get into nonsensical DO WE PRACTICE THESE OR WHAT? and Scoop is more full of Gene Hackmans than usual. Given a choice between 'FTs no matta' and 'what should Wojo do about our FT problem,' I'll take FT no matta every day and twice on days after losses to top 10 teams.

[cheese ball chaser]

I have never seen a defense that breaks down so quickly as ours - we our poor both on and off the ball.  We may win a couple of shootouts against good teams but we won't be one of them until we get a serviceable D scheme in place.

This is what concerns me about Big East play and the tournament. Good teams will expose the sh*t out of these defensive weaknesses. We won't win shootouts when the shots aren't fallin'

[real chili 83]

Bunch of us must hqve the day off, a'ainna?

[real chili 83]

Man, if we just could have scored more points than them.  Bet that was the key to the game.

[rocky_warrior]

Pretty quick we get into nonsensical DO WE PRACTICE THESE OR WHAT? and Scoop is more full of Gene Hackmans than usual. Given a choice between 'FTs no matta' and 'what should Wojo do about our FT problem,' I'll take FT no matta every day and twice on days after losses to top 10 teams.

This is a good point!  Why isn't Wojo teaching the guys how to draw fouls at a decent rate!?!?!?

[damuts222]

This is a good point!  Why isn't Wojo teaching the guys how to draw fouls at a decent rate!?!?!?

Not teaching it good enough! Rowsey needs another black eye!

[warriorchick]

I think most of you are missing the most important point here.


We hung with a Top Ten team for close to 40 minutes, leading a significant portion of the time, even though two of our three best players were having off games. And it wasn't because Xavier was playing poorly, either.

How many of you would have predicted this last September?  Unless you are going to argue that Xavier is completely overrated, that means our team is the real deal.

[Silkk the Shaka]

I think most of you are missing the most important point here.


We hung with a Top Ten team for close to 40 minutes, leading a significant portion of the time, even though two of our three best players were having off games. And it wasn't because Xavier was playing poorly, either.

How many of you would have predicted this last September?  Unless you are going to argue that Xavier is completely overrated, that means our team is the real deal.

Agreed. If Howard, Hauser, and Rowsey are all "on" at the same time, we beat anyone in the nation regardless of how bad our D is. Hopefully it happens vs. Nova or X, or at the BET, or in the NCAA...

[4everwarriors]

Atta boy awards aplenty, hey?

[Newsdreams]

Bunch of us must hqve the day off, a'ainna?

Hey! I'm working here! Important engineering stuff!!

[MerrittsMustache]

I think most of you are missing the most important point here.


We hung with a Top Ten team for close to 40 minutes, leading a significant portion of the time, even though two of our three best players were having off games. And it wasn't because Xavier was playing poorly, either.

How many of you would have predicted this last September?  Unless you are going to argue that Xavier is completely overrated, that means our team is the real deal.

Earlier this season, LaSalle played Villanova close, led at halftime, tied the game with about 5 minutes to play but lost a tough one. LaSalle is 6-7 with losses to Drexel and Towson on their resume. Is Villanova simply overrated or does that one game not really mean a whole lot in the big picture?

IOW, it means nothing for Marquette to "hang with" a top ten team. Just because they weren't completely outclassed by Xavier doesn't mean MU is lurking as a sleeping giant or close to X's level. It simply means that they lost to a good team.

[warriorchick]

Earlier this season, LaSalle played Villanova close, led at halftime, tied the game with about 5 minutes to play but lost a tough one. LaSalle is 6-7 with losses to Drexel and Towson on their resume. Is Villanova simply overrated or does that one game not really mean a whole lot in the big picture?

IOW, it means nothing for Marquette to "hang with" a top ten team. Just because they weren't completely outclassed by Xavier doesn't mean MU is lurking as a sleeping giant or close to X's level. It simply means that they lost to a good team.

So tell me: what is the proper way to evaluate a team if you don't use their performance against other teams? 

[We R Final Four]

I think most of you are missing the most important point here.


We hung with a Top Ten team for close to 40 minutes, leading a significant portion of the time, even though two of our three best players were having off games. And it wasn't because Xavier was playing poorly, either.

How many of you would have predicted this last September?  Unless you are going to argue that Xavier is completely overrated, that means our team is the real deal.

MU led for 9:26. While we had the lead it certainly was significant.

[MerrittsMustache]

So tell me: what is the proper way to evaluate a team if you don't use their performance against other teams? 

Don't read too much into one game. Last season, Marquette beat the #1 team in the country then lost 4 of 5, including 2 blowout losses to sub-.500 teams.

Marquette played a close game at home against #6 but they lost. The team can learn from that game but it's not like that one game means that MU is any closer to being a top-tier Big East team than they were prior to the game. Sure, I guess maybe it'll be a springboard and MU will right all their wrongs and go on a long winning streak as a result. More likely though, it just tells us what we already know: Marquette isn't as good as Xavier.

[4everwarriors]

Xavier knows how to close out an opponent and win. MU still learnin'. Betta question is how good is ASU four years inta der new coach, ai na?

[willie warrior]

Xavier is better than Marquette. They were more aggressive, more poised and played better basketball down the stretch. X wanted to take away Hauser and they did. They were more than happy with Rowsey and Howard dribbling around and firing up contested shots.

When your two guards take 43 shots and have more TOs than assists, it's tough to win. Sure, Rowsey scored a bunch of points but he also took a lot of bad shots (as did Howard). There were multiple times where someone was open but Rowsey/Howard had his head down and was determined to get a shot off. That's got to change. It can work in non-conf games but MU's margin for error in the Big East is too thin to waste possessions with quick, forced shots. Rowsey had been doing pretty well with that lately, but last night Macura clearly got in his head. At the end of the day, Jamal Cain is the main reason why MU was in that game.

Move on and get ready for Georgetown. MU needs to win games like Saturday's if they want to have a shot at the NCAAT.

Agreed. Rowsey can shoot and score, but also takes stupid 30 foot shots early in the clock. That has to be handled by "coaching" which Wojo needs to take care of.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Xavier knows how to close out an opponent and win. MU still learnin'. Betta question is how good is ASU four years inta der new coach, ai na?

This is year three of the Hurley era not four, and the first 2 years were about as bad as Wojo's first.

This year they're a better version of us (#4 offense / #121 defense vs. #15 O / #158 D), and next year they'll likely take a step back after Holder/Evans/Justice graduate while we'll be taking a large step forward. So I'll wait for year 4 to be complete at both schools, but I bet ASU will be in worse shape than us after 4 years, not better.