Raining 3's on Chicago State

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Thanks guys - helpful info for this guy (grew up a hockey player).

[Jockey]

A declarative statement about a Frosh in his first month is simply foolish.  Why doesn't Theo have the highest ceiling?  He could be Angel Delgado as a Senior.  Point is nobody has a clue.  And you didn't say he might have the highest ceiling which everyone could buy into.   

1. "I realize it was Chi-State, but Greg Elliott looked like he had the highest ceiling on the team." is, by definition NOT a declarative statement.

2. "Why doesn't Theo have the highest ceiling?" Simple. We have eyes. TJ has shown extremely limited basketball skills thus far. GE has displayed many.

3. "Point is nobody has a clue." See #2 (we have eyes). Of course we have clues. GE was the best rebounding guard on the floor last night. He was the best defensive guard on the floor last night. He was the best passing guard on the floor last night. These are all "clues".


So does GE have the highest ceiling on the team? Maybe. Maybe not. As of now, he shows the potential to be, along with Sam, the most skilled player on the team. He has a long way to go, but if you can't see the difference between the current basketball skills of Elliott as compared to Theo, then I probably just wasted 3 minutes typing this.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

FWIW, Buzz's defense did much the same thing.   It turns the ballhandler away from the lane, forces him to a side.   Then the big recovers to the middle with his hands up and his head on a swivel to prevent the pass to the rolling big.   Otule was very good at it.   Davante was good at the hedge, less good at the recovery.     It is a staple of pick and roll defense.    The weak side wing is supposed to drop into the paint to contest the pass to the rolling big man.    If the weak side wing is late or too small, or the 5 is too slow at the recovery, you get bigs getting nearly uncontested point blank shots.    If the weak side rotation is on time with a large enough defender, you get a possible steal/deflection or at worst a contested shot from a 6'10 offensive player over a 6'7 defensive player.    Also, if the defensive 5 is able to retreat in a timely fashion with his hands up, you cut off the pass to the rolling screener. 

If done correctly, the point guard must now initiate the offense elsewhere, the few seconds of recovery theoretically being enough for the defensive 5 to drop down and guard the post and the weak side wing to recover out to the offensive wing lurking near the 3 point line.    It is a fairly standard defensive scheme.    So far, it looks like Matt and Theo are better than Luke was at the recovery to the middle.   However, if they are late, and the weak side wing is Markus or Andrew, it is an easy lay up.

Keefe could have answered this question better, but he is far too important to do so. 

[GoldenDieners32]

Thought we played well and liked what i saw from the freshman. Bring on Georgia we got this

[skianth16]

So does GE have the highest ceiling on the team? Maybe. Maybe not. As of now, he shows the potential to be, along with Sam, the most skilled player on the team. He has a long way to go, but if you can't see the difference between the current basketball skills of Elliott as compared to Theo, then I probably just wasted 3 minutes typing this

I think you're spot on so far. I want to think Theo still has big potential, but honestly, it's mostly based on his physical attributes and has nothing to do with what he's done on the floor so far. Just looking at the guy, it's easy to forget that he's just a freshman, but seeing him play, it becomes painfully obvious. As it stands now, I'm kind of hoping he doesn't get much PT once Froling is available. He needs to learn a lot and mature before he's ready to mix it up with the bigs in the conference.

[79Warrior]

I think you're spot on so far. I want to think Theo still has big potential, but honestly, it's mostly based on his physical attributes and has nothing to do with what he's done on the floor so far. Just looking at the guy, it's easy to forget that he's just a freshman, but seeing him play, it becomes painfully obvious. As it stands now, I'm kind of hoping he doesn't get much PT once Froling is available. He needs to learn a lot and mature before he's ready to mix it up with the bigs in the conference.

When Harry becomes available, Theo will be the third option. Doubt we see him much in BE play unless its garbage time.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I think you're spot on so far. I want to think Theo still has big potential, but honestly, it's mostly based on his physical attributes and has nothing to do with what he's done on the floor so far. Just looking at the guy, it's easy to forget that he's just a freshman, but seeing him play, it becomes painfully obvious. As it stands now, I'm kind of hoping he doesn't get much PT once Froling is available. He needs to learn a lot and mature before he's ready to mix it up with the bigs in the conference.

I think Theo is way ahead of where Matt was as a freshman, though.  But gotta give Matt credit for the improvement to his FT stroke, looks really good.  FT's no matter, but I still believe 4 of 5 is better than 3 of 6. #luddite

[StillWarriors]

When Harry becomes available, Theo will be the third option. Doubt we see him much in BE play unless its garbage time.

Theo's muscle and fouls will likely be necessary against some of the strong athletic bigs we will face in conference play. I suspect he'll see some non-garbage minutes on a regular basis. 

[tower912]

Thanks guys - helpful info for this guy (grew up a hockey player).

So, last year's problems with Luke as well as some of the problems with this year's defensive schemes.....

Last year with Luke, he struggled to recover after the hedge.   One thing I noticed from Theo is that after the hedge, he always recovered to his man facing the ball, assuming his man would be down low.    Luke would, on a regular basis, turn his back to the ball while he recovered, looking over his shoulder with a hand up.    In other words, Luke would struggle to keep an eye on where the ball was.
   Also, too often last year, Marquette switched on the high pick and roll.    This left Luke guarding a point guard in space and one of MU's miniature guards trying to guard a big rolling to the basket.    When the guard went by Luke, the weak side wing was either late or too small to contest.    When the inevitable help/collapse came to attempt to stop the drive, the point guard would pass to an open teammate who had started going to the basket through the open space created by the help, leading to a lay up line.   It also leads to poor box out responsibilities and MU's tallest player coming late to the defensive boards.     Sound familiar?
   I hate the switch on the high pick and roll with a slow 5. The switch works if the new defender is Butler/Crowder/Hayward and Blue or DJO is the guard hanging on the rolling big or some other variation where you don't have huge size/speed differentials.    Howard/Heldt is a bad combination.    Blue/Crowder is a great combination.  Elliot/Cain might eventually be a really good combination.    Cain appears to have the footwork and footspeed to defend in space and Elliot has the long arms necessary to break up a pass or contest at the rim.    Hopefully, we have 4 years to find out. 

These are just a couple of defenses against the high pick and roll.   IIRC, Buzz said that when Thibs called before the Bulls drafted Butler, they discussed the 6 different ways MU defended the pick and roll.  Or maybe Butler was quizzed about it.   It all gets foggy after a while. 

MU runs the high pick and roll.   When the big switches, then you have Markus or Rowsey in space.    That is frequently when you see #thething.    A big has switched onto Rowsey.   He sees a chance to block the shot and he bites, even though the scout says to close with a hand up.   Bigs on defense are not graceful near the 3 pt line.    Also, when the big hedges and turns Howard or Rowsey, because they are such good 3 pt shooters, instead of them starting the offense again, you will frequently see them fire up the shot as the their initial defender recovers to them.     Neither is a great driver or a great passer when they drive, but they do get to the rack because the defense is so cognizant of their 3 point shooting. 

[jsglow]

1. "I realize it was Chi-State, but Greg Elliott looked like he had the highest ceiling on the team." is, by definition NOT a declarative statement.

2. "Why doesn't Theo have the highest ceiling?" Simple. We have eyes. TJ has shown extremely limited basketball skills thus far. GE has displayed many.

3. "Point is nobody has a clue." See #2 (we have eyes). Of course we have clues. GE was the best rebounding guard on the floor last night. He was the best defensive guard on the floor last night. He was the best passing guard on the floor last night. These are all "clues".


So does GE have the highest ceiling on the team? Maybe. Maybe not. As of now, he shows the potential to be, along with Sam, the most skilled player on the team. He has a long way to go, but if you can't see the difference between the current basketball skills of Elliott as compared to Theo, then I probably just wasted 3 minutes typing this.

1) Current, agreed.

2) Yes you did.

[Silkk the Shaka]

This is some of the best analysis of our defense I've seen to date. Awesome thread!

[jsglow]

So, last year's problems with Luke as well as some of the problems with this year's defensive schemes.....

Last year with Luke, he struggled to recover after the hedge.   One thing I noticed from Theo is that after the hedge, he always recovered to his man facing the ball, assuming his man would be down low.    Luke would, on a regular basis, turn his back to the ball while he recovered, looking over his shoulder with a hand up.    In other words, Luke would struggle to keep an eye on where the ball was.
   Also, too often last year, Marquette switched on the high pick and roll.    This left Luke guarding a point guard in space and one of MU's miniature guards trying to guard a big rolling to the basket.    When the guard went by Luke, the weak side wing was either late or too small to contest.    When the inevitable help/collapse came to attempt to stop the drive, the point guard would pass to an open teammate who had started going to the basket through the open space created by the help, leading to a lay up line.   It also leads to poor box out responsibilities and MU's tallest player coming late to the defensive boards.     Sound familiar?
   I hate the switch on the high pick and roll with a slow 5. The switch works if the new defender is Butler/Crowder/Hayward and Blue or DJO is the guard hanging on the rolling big or some other variation where you don't have huge size/speed differentials.    Howard/Heldt is a bad combination.    Blue/Crowder is a great combination.  Elliot/Cain might eventually be a really good combination.    Cain appears to have the footwork and footspeed to defend in space and Elliot has the long arms necessary to break up a pass or contest at the rim.    Hopefully, we have 4 years to find out. 

These are just a couple of defenses against the high pick and roll.   IIRC, Buzz said that when Thibs called before the Bulls drafted Butler, they discussed the 6 different ways MU defended the pick and roll.  Or maybe Butler was quizzed about it.   It all gets foggy after a while. 

MU runs the high pick and roll.   When the big switches, then you have Markus or Rowsey in space.    That is frequently when you see #thething.    A big has switched onto Rowsey.   He sees a chance to block the shot and he bites, even though the scout says to close with a hand up.   Bigs on defense are not graceful near the 3 pt line.    Also, when the big hedges and turns Howard or Rowsey, because they are such good 3 pt shooters, instead of them starting the offense again, you will frequently see them fire up the shot as the their initial defender recovers to them.     Neither is a great driver or a great passer when they drive, but they do get to the rack because the defense is so cognizant of their 3 point shooting.

+1

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

After one open practice, I remember people talking about Dameon Mason as a possible first round pick after his junior year.  Oops.  I like what I've seen from Elliott.  Let's see him develop before we predict him leaving pro early.

[cheese ball chaser]

I think Theo is way ahead of where Matt was as a freshman, though.  But gotta give Matt credit for the improvement to his FT stroke, looks really good.  FT's no matter, but I still believe 4 of 5 is better than 3 of 6. #luddite

Can someone explain the origin of the free throws no matta thing?

[barfolomew]

I've never been a fan of the hard hedge by the 5 and Wojo likes to hedge higher and harder than many coaches, but I don't think that is the problem with our defense. The drives and post entry passes come more from the secondary perimeter pass, and it boils down to Rowsey and Howard requiring help that Wojo is not sending. 

It seemed last year the off wing would sag to help on the dribble penetration, leaving an open three pt shooter. I think Wojo has made a choice to let the drive happen, try to improve the 3pt defense, and roll the dice around the rim.

Has that worked? Through seven games, our T-Rank ADJDE is 102.1, slightly worse than last year's 101.3.
Only six high major teams (excl. A10 and AAC) have a worse ADJDE than us right now. Small sample size, I know, but still.

[GGGG]

Can someone explain the origin of the free throws no matta thing?

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=54886.msg964280#msg964280

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=54886.msg964194#msg964194

[Newsdreams]

1.Ners could start for Chicago St. and would have been dunking posterizing Matt & Theo
2.Markus is really fun to watch (on offense) when he's on - so is Rowsey.
3.Both play ole' defense on the perimeter, even against cupcakes.
4.Sacar looked solid.
5.If Elliott learns how to shoot and Cain puts on some muscle both could be very good.
6.Sam was invisible on both ends.
7.So was Matt.
8.So was Theo.
9.Cupcakes are yummy.

There

[tower912]

Keefe could have answered this question better, but he is far too important to do so.

Well, he is a god walking the earth while I am merely a civil servant, so it only makes sense. 

[Newsdreams]

The ceiling is the roof.

Not correct

[GGGG]

Well, he is a god walking the earth while I am merely a civil servant, so it only makes sense. 

Are we sure he still walks of the earth?  Are we sure he hasn't ascended into heaven?

[tower912]

I think you're spot on so far. I want to think Theo still has big potential, but honestly, it's mostly based on his physical attributes and has nothing to do with what he's done on the floor so far. Just looking at the guy, it's easy to forget that he's just a freshman, but seeing him play, it becomes painfully obvious. As it stands now, I'm kind of hoping he doesn't get much PT once Froling is available. He needs to learn a lot and mature before he's ready to mix it up with the bigs in the conference.

With the make up of the roster after Froling is eligible, as well as the possibility that his skill set is akin to Henry's, I would anticipate some two-big sets, particularly against the more physical teams.   Theo will continue to get minutes.    And probably foul out quickly. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Can someone explain the origin of the free throws no matta thing?

See Sultan's post for an explanation. As for the origin, I believe Jay Bee coined the phrase a few years back in response Scoop consistently bemoaning Marquette missing free throws at a rate that scoopers deemed unacceptable. The funny thing about that is that Marquette has been an above average free throw shooting team at least since the Dwyane Wade era. The national average for FT% usually overs around 69%. Marquette has only shot below that mark twice in the past 16 seasons, 66.9% in 06-07 and 64.5% in 14-15.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

See Sultan's post for an explanation. As for the origin, I believe Jay Bee coined the phrase a few years back in response Scoop consistently bemoaning Marquette missing free throws at a rate that scoopers deemed unacceptable. The funny thing about that is that Marquette has been an above average free throw shooting team at least since the Dwyane Wade era. The national average for FT% usually overs around 69%. Marquette has only shot below that mark twice in the past 16 seasons, 66.9% in 06-07 and 64.5% in 14-15.

IIRC, the moaning the led to JB's coining was during the 14-15 season.  So at least the timing made a little sense.

[warriorchick]

Are we sure he still walks of the earth?  Are we sure he hasn't ascended into heaven?

Or descended?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Well, he is a god walking the earth while I am merely a civil servant, so it only makes sense.

Lazy firemen sit
No Ivy degrees? Losers!
Watch me swing my dick