Raining 3's on Chicago State

[Loose Cannon]

Not what I was doing.  Said he has the highest ceiling on the team.

I agree, in his short window have we seen anyone on this team with better, smoother moves than him.  More minutes for sure. 

[Hards Alumni]

Lesson learned?   

Character revealed.

I seem to be one of the few people on this board that can openly admit they were wrong about something.

[skianth16]

Character revealed.

I seem to be one of the few people on this board that can openly admit they were wrong about something.

Don't pat yourself on the back too hard... wouldn't want ya to get a bruise

[Silkk the Shaka]

So do that against a solid Division 1 team, then maybe 4 years from now once he grows into his tiny body, he might be good enough for a try-out.  Long ways away
from even discussing the NBA.

Agreed, but he's got measurables for position and a head for the game. Needs to add 2 things (in a major way): bulk on his frame, and a jumper.

Luckily, he came to a great program to develop his jumper. I think he'll be a completely different player come junior year. Think we still need a grad transfer PG/CG that can D up and hit the open J if we want to make some major noise next year.

[tower912]

Too early to anoint, too early to bury.    Elliot has looked comfortable out there.   Cain looked comfortable against Chicago State.   These are good things.   It is better than them looking bad against Chicago State.    Dawson looked like Magic against Grambling.   How did that work out for him or the denizens of this board when it became an obsession?

Marquette is entering another difficult 3 game stretch.   The freshmen are going to have to perform against bigger, stronger, more experienced teams and in one of the most difficult venues they will play in.     Patience.    I assume there will be ups and downs and that progress won't be linear.    However, if they kick ass during the next 3 games, there will be cause for optimism. 

[Hards Alumni]

A declarative statement about a Frosh in his first month is simply foolish.  Why doesn't Theo have the highest ceiling?  He could be Angel Delgado as a Senior.  Point is nobody has a clue.  And you didn't say he might have the highest ceiling which everyone could buy into.   

Since we're mincing words here, that isn't what I said either.  I said it looked like he had the highest ceiling.  Which is clearly an opinion.

[Hards Alumni]

Don't pat yourself on the back too hard... wouldn't want ya to get a bruise

Don't you have another Wojo hate diatribe to type up?

[jsglow]

Not crucifying ya brother.  Just saying you said, and then doubled down, on something dumb. Have a great day.

[wadesworld]

The ceiling is the roof.

[Hards Alumni]

Not crucifying ya brother.  Just saying you said, and then doubled down, on something dumb. Have a great day.

I'm just sayin'.  You read it wrong.  It's cool if you won't admit it.  Proof is there.

[jsglow]

I'm just sayin'.  You read it wrong.  It's cool if you won't admit it.  Proof is there.

Fine, you win.  I hope you're right.

[Hards Alumni]

Fine, you win.  I hope you're right.

Thanks, just trying to adjust to the new culture of the board.

I'm glad I'm now allowed to have my own opinion about something Marquette related.

[MUEng92]

Does anyone have a video of what a successful defensive possession looks like when a nearly 7ftr hedges all the way to mid court on a 5'9" guard while the other teams big rolls to the basket? I don't even remember what the correct defensive scheme looks like.

[brewcity77]

They played zone last night on a couple occasions.  It wasn't very good.

I was a proponent of trying zone. Ugh. Maybe we could get away with it with only one of the midgets in there, but definitely not both.

[jsglow]

Thanks, just trying to adjust to the new culture of the board.

I'm glad I'm now allowed to have my own opinion about something Marquette related.

You can have an opinion on anything you want my friend.

[MU82]

Hards:

What you concluded was that if Elliott develops a shot, "watch out, he may not be here for 4 years."

About a dozen games into Mayo's freshman year, far too many Scoopers were presenting similar NBA implications. I believe some similar things were even said about Haani.

Now, neither was here for 4 years ... but not because the NBA came a'callin'.

I am extremely hopeful about Elliott, as well as Cain and John, but we know precious little about them yet. You were expressing an opinion, and you're allowed one of those as much as I am or anybody else is, but don't be stunned when an implied NBA career for a kid who has played 100 college minutes gets a little blowback.

On a couple other subjects ...

ZONE: I too thought this might help things. The problem is that Markus and Rowsey are small. Most good zone defenses - and there ARE such things - feature players at the top who have some height, long arms and defensive quickness. Markus and Andrew are 0-for in all departments (although there is hope that Markus could develop defensive quickness). A good zone usually has a shot-blocker at the back, too.

M & A's D: It is true that both Markus and Andrew are pretty bad defensive players (and that's probably being kind), but when you get 44 pts a game from them, it's hard to be too down on them. Everybody has a role, and on an otherwise offensively challenged team, theirs is a darn important one. I hope their poor defense isn't due to lack of effort but rather to lack of physical gifts. I mean, Markus will occasionally slide in and take a charge, indicating that he's willing and possibly indicating that he can improve on that end. Rowsey ... he's a 5th-year player and is a leopard who is unlikely to change his spots.

[Loose Cannon]

You can have an opinion on anything you want my friend.

There is an open Ambassadorship awaiting you Glow.

[skianth16]

Don't you have another Wojo hate diatribe to type up?

Nah, I'm good for now. I may have some new ammunition after the UGA or UVM games, though. It sill amazes me how wanting to win is considered taboo on this board at times, though. Criticizing a mediocre coach should be acceptable.

[tower912]

Nah, I'm good for now. I may have some new ammunition after the UGA or UVM games, though. It sill amazes me how wanting to win is considered taboo on this board at times, though. Criticizing a mediocre coach should be acceptable.

So you are ready to pull the trigger on Wojo?  If so, fair enough.   Two questions.   1.   Who do you think will want the job?   As I recall, the runner ups behind wojo were Cuonzo and maybe Ben Howland.    MU's admin clearly made the best choice among those 3.    2.   Are you ready to deal with more years of mediocrity as the next savior gets his guys and his system in place?

I am not convinced that Wojo is the 10 year, get us back to the final 4 and consistently ranked answer.   If he is able to land a quality guard for next year and the rest of the roster remains status quo, I would hate to not get a chance to see how it turns out. 

[MUMountin]

M & A's D: It is true that both Markus and Andrew are pretty bad defensive players (and that's probably being kind), but when you get 44 pts a game from them, it's hard to be too down on them. Everybody has a role, and on an otherwise offensively challenged team, theirs is a darn important one. I hope their poor defense isn't due to lack of effort but rather to lack of physical gifts. I mean, Markus will occasionally slide in and take a charge, indicating that he's willing and possibly indicating that he can improve on that end. Rowsey ... he's a 5th-year player and is a leopard who is unlikely to change his spots.

Does anyone have access to stats about what Howard and Rowsey's +/- is, particularly when they are on the floor together?  Just curious how their offensive prowess really does weigh against their defensive liabilities.  I know those numbers must be out there, but don't know where to look or have access to those sites.

[skianth16]

So you are ready to pull the trigger on Wojo?  If so, fair enough.   Two questions.   1.   Who do you think will want the job?   As I recall, the runner ups behind wojo were Cuonzo and maybe Ben Howland.    MU's admin clearly made the best choice among those 3.    2.   Are you ready to deal with more years of mediocrity as the next savior gets his guys and his system in place?

I am not convinced that Wojo is the 10 year, get us back to the final 4 and consistently ranked answer.   If he is able to land a quality guard for next year and the rest of the roster remains status quo, I would hate to not get a chance to see how it turns out.

I don't think I'm ready to boot him just yet. He's done a nice job of landing some quality guys, there's no disputing that. The product he puts on the floor has just been so frustrating, and we often see him get outcoached in the second half of games where our opponent seems to adjust well and we don't. I definitely want to see what we can do next year with Hauser and Morrow and the added experience of Howard and Sam. But if the team doesn't perform well next year, I think it's perfectly acceptable to look elsewhere for a coach, maybe even encouraged.

For the rest of this season, I'm hoping we'll see improvements or at least some changes on defense and a little more balance on offense that doesn't require 20+ threes per game to get a W. And I'm hoping we continue to see improvement from the young guys, especially in conference play where the competition will be better and bigger. To be clear, I want Wojo to be successful, I'm just not impressed with him yet and think he's been slow to improve so far.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Does anyone have a video of what a successful defensive possession looks like when a nearly 7ftr hedges all the way to mid court on a 5'9" guard while the other teams big rolls to the basket? I don't even remember what the correct defensive scheme looks like.

Seriously...can someone that understands defensive schemes more than I explain what this accomplishes?  Matt and Theo seem to run around between the paint and the top of the key like chickens with their heads cut off every defensive possession.  What does this accomplish? It doesn't seem to me to accomplish anything, and maybe that is the players, but if executed correctly, what is the purpose?  Just leaves the paint guarded by smaller defenders that can't affect a driver.     

[cheebs09]

Seriously...can someone that understands defensive schemes more than I explain what this accomplishes?  Matt and Theo seem to run around between the paint and the top of the key like chickens with their heads cut off every defensive possession.  What does this accomplish? It doesn't seem to me to accomplish anything, and maybe that is the players, but if executed correctly, what is the purpose?  Just leaves the paint guarded by smaller defenders that can't affect a driver.   

Keeps the ball handler extended from the basket and can't easily take a 3. Markus and Rowsey get quite a few 3's off a pick.

The issue is the weak side guy is late to cover or too small. We get a lot of cheap fouls or easy baskets by that weak side guy being late.

[tower912]

Seriously...can someone that understands defensive schemes more than I explain what this accomplishes?  Matt and Theo seem to run around between the paint and the top of the key like chickens with their heads cut off every defensive possession.  What does this accomplish? It doesn't seem to me to accomplish anything, and maybe that is the players, but if executed correctly, what is the purpose?  Just leaves the paint guarded by smaller defenders that can't affect a driver.   

FWIW, Buzz's defense did much the same thing.   It turns the ballhandler away from the lane, forces him to a side.   Then the big recovers to the middle with his hands up and his head on a swivel to prevent the pass to the rolling big.   Otule was very good at it.   Davante was good at the hedge, less good at the recovery.     It is a staple of pick and roll defense.    The weak side wing is supposed to drop into the paint to contest the pass to the rolling big man.    If the weak side wing is late or too small, or the 5 is too slow at the recovery, you get bigs getting nearly uncontested point blank shots.    If the weak side rotation is on time with a large enough defender, you get a possible steal/deflection or at worst a contested shot from a 6'10 offensive player over a 6'7 defensive player.    Also, if the defensive 5 is able to retreat in a timely fashion with his hands up, you cut off the pass to the rolling screener. 

If done correctly, the point guard must now initiate the offense elsewhere, the few seconds of recovery theoretically being enough for the defensive 5 to drop down and guard the post and the weak side wing to recover out to the offensive wing lurking near the 3 point line.    It is a fairly standard defensive scheme.    So far, it looks like Matt and Theo are better than Luke was at the recovery to the middle.   However, if they are late, and the weak side wing is Markus or Andrew, it is an easy lay up. 

[MU82]

Good comments, cheebs and tower.

tower touched on this ... it also creates a little chaotic look, a frenetic situation, that can force the ballhandler to make a rushed or foolish decision that leads to a bad pass, a deflection, a travel, etc. In some ways, it is similar to a press in that regard - even when the press is broken, it often leads to the opponent rushing something and/or playing out of character.

Personally, I like the center hedge if you have the right personnel. I'm not sure we do (actually, pretty sure we don't).

I like Wojo more than many do, but I disagree with him on this tactic, at least on the number of times it is employed every game no matter what our personnel group on the floor is.