MLB 2018 Season

[wadesworld]

This hot take is almost as bad as starters more valuable than relievers.

Starters more valuable than relievers is a hot take hey?  Interesting.

[buckchuckler]

If I had to rank the importance of positions on a pitching staff I would go:

1) Ace
2) Number 2 starter
3) Closer
4)Number 3 starter
5)8th inning guy
6) 7th inning guy
7)4th starter
8)5th starter

That's my quick assessment, these could also be log rolled a bit depending on what your team has and can accomplish (and I think I could be swayed on a couple spots).  If you can't get the number 3 starter, you can make up for it in the bullpen.  If your bullpen is shallower but have great starters, you can cover that weakness up a bit.

[wadesworld]

Who?

But really, no one is saying that relievers aren't important.  Clearly they are.  Mostly due to starters becoming less adept at going deep into games. 

Your example of Gagne winning doesn't prove anything I said (and it is just my opinion, not any sweeping declaration) that relievers shouldn't win the Cy Young.  They do.  They have.  I think it is ridiculous.  This would be like giving a utility IF the award based on a great BA and OPS.  Yeah the ratios are there, but he hasn't done as much work to earn it. 

With utility players, like relievers this is ignoring that they are often times in games when the match-ups are more advantageous for them.  It is ignoring the fact they don't have to work through the same level of fatigue.  It is ignoring that if there is a day when they don't have their stuff, they won't have to try to face 25 batters anyways.  It is ignoring that it is more difficult to get the same hitters out the 2nd, 3rd and 4th time you face a hitter than it is the first time.  It is ignoring that starters have to face guys with strategies other than, use their best stuff every pitch.  It is ignoring that starters will face a team's best hitters 3 or so times per game, where a reliever may never face them.  It ignores that starters have to pitch in different situations that call for different approaches ( what I mean is that Hader for example has been in 2 games where his team was behind, and starters have to face being ahead, behind and tied.)

Relievers are important.  And if you have a mediocre staff, they can even the playing field against teams that have better starters.  But that doesn't make it them more valuable.  Each time the manager goes to a different reliever it is a roll of the dice on whether or not that guy has it that day.  It is better to have that ace type pitcher to get you into the 8th inning and not have to hope 4 different guys are on their stuff, because relievers, also tend to be more mercurial than starters for whatever reason.

But with how the Brewers are utilizing Hader he doesn't really only face batters he has an "advantage" on.  He's facing a team's full lineup.  And sure he might not see the lineup twice in a game, but he is certainly seeing the lineup twice in two days in some cases.  And sometimes he's throwing multiple innings multiple days in a row, so I would guess (though I'm not him so I certainly don't know for sure) that he absolutely faces fatigue.  And Hader is almost always coming in either to face the oppositions best 3 hitters or in a high leverage situations, and oftentimes both.

If I had to rank the importance of positions on a pitching staff I would go:

1) Ace
2) Number 2 starter
3) Closer
4)Number 3 starter
5)8th inning guy
6) 7th inning guy
7)4th starter
8)5th starter

That's my quick assessment, these could also be log rolled a bit depending on what your team has and can accomplish (and I think I could be swayed on a couple spots).  If you can't get the number 3 starter, you can make up for it in the bullpen.  If your bullpen is shallower but have great starters, you can cover that weakness up a bit.

What would you consider Hader?  He's not a closer, though at times he closes games.  He's not an 8th inning guy, though sometimes he pitches the 8th inning.  He's not a 7th inning guy, though sometimes he pitches the 7th inning.  And some games he's all 3 of those things combined.

To me, Hader is far and away the most important pitcher the Brewers have, and unquestionably more important than Corey Knebel, an All Star closer.  The Brewers were able to withstand a month without Knebel.  I'm not sure they could do that without Hader, and if they did it would take totally reassigning rolls in the bullpen and relying more on starting pitching.

I think the value of a closer has always been overrated.  Important?  Yes.  But I think the Brewers over the past couple of decades are proof that it's not too hard to find effective closers.  Axford, Hoffman, Turnbow, Cordero.

[buckchuckler]

But with how the Brewers are utilizing Hader he doesn't really only face batters he has an "advantage" on.  He's facing a team's full lineup.  And sure he might not see the lineup twice in a game, but he is certainly seeing the lineup twice in two days in some cases.  And sometimes he's throwing multiple innings multiple days in a row, so I would guess (though I'm not him so I certainly don't know for sure) that he absolutely faces fatigue.  And Hader is almost always coming in either to face the oppositions best 3 hitters or in a high leverage situations, and oftentimes both.

No he isn't.  He has seen 9 batters 1 time.  So normally he is facing just under 6 hitters per appearance.  That is a section of the lineup, not the entire lineup.  A starter faces the entire lineup.

As for the fatigue, he averages 27 pitches per appearance.  Throwing 54 pitches in 3 days isn't close the the fatigue of throwing 100 in 3 hours.  To make that case seems preposterous.

And he really hasn't faced many guys multiple times.  There are only 9 of (95) that Hader has faced twice all season, and he hasn't faced a single guy 3 times.  And each time he faces them, his stuff is fresher.  It may be his 12th pitch one time and his 30th the next, but his stuff likely doesn't drop off like a guy who faces a guy with his 12th pitch, then his 47th then his 88th. 

http://m.mlb.com/player/623352/josh-hader?year=2018&stats=bvp-r-pitching-mlb 

[buckchuckler]

What would you consider Hader?  He's not a closer, though at times he closes games.  He's not an 8th inning guy, though sometimes he pitches the 8th inning.  He's not a 7th inning guy, though sometimes he pitches the 7th inning.  And some games he's all 3 of those things combined.

To me, Hader is far and away the most important pitcher the Brewers have, and unquestionably more important than Corey Knebel, an All Star closer.  The Brewers were able to withstand a month without Knebel.  I'm not sure they could do that without Hader, and if they did it would take totally reassigning rolls in the bullpen and relying more on starting pitching.

I think the value of a closer has always been overrated.  Important?  Yes.  But I think the Brewers over the past couple of decades are proof that it's not too hard to find effective closers.  Axford, Hoffman, Turnbow, Cordero.

I was speaking more in general terms of assembling a pitching staff, not specifically the Brewers.  As for Hader,  I would consider him somewhere between closer and 8th inning guy.  I think the only real comparison for him right now is Andrew Miller.  It seems like the Brewers are patterning his usage in Miller's mold.  He is has been a unique animal this year, and I don't doubt he has been the Brewers most valuable pitcher.  Their best starters are on the DL, which helps open the door, but also he has been completely dominant.  Not saying he hasn't, that would be stupid. 

But even a top end dominating late inning reliever, in my opinion, cannot match the value of a top end starting pitcher.  The Brewers lack that top end SP, the NL, does not.  Because of that I don't think Hader should win the Cy Young.

[buckchuckler]

I think the value of a closer has always been overrated.  Important?  Yes.  But I think the Brewers over the past couple of decades are proof that it's not too hard to find effective closers.  Axford, Hoffman, Turnbow, Cordero.

I know he was old with the Brewers, but do you want to rethink putting him in with the others?

[wadesworld]

I know he was old with the Brewers, but do you want to rethink putting him in with the others?

I don't. He was 40 years old with a 3.77 ERA in his last year with the Padres and then came to the Brewers as a 41 year old and had a 1.83 ERA before posting an ERA of close to 6 the next season.

[🏀]

If I had to rank the importance of positions on a pitching staff I would go:

1) Ace
2) Number 2 starter
3) Closer
4)Number 3 starter
5)8th inning guy
6) 7th inning guy
7)4th starter
8)5th starter

That's my quick assessment, these could also be log rolled a bit depending on what your team has and can accomplish (and I think I could be swayed on a couple spots).  If you can't get the number 3 starter, you can make up for it in the bullpen.  If your bullpen is shallower but have great starters, you can cover that weakness up a bit.

That's a good list.

[buckchuckler]

You aren't the only one thinking this way Wades...unless this is you.

https://www.mlb.com/news/josh-hader-making-case-for-mlbs-top-awards/c-277537948

[TallTitan34]

If you believe your statement, you should stick to posting about basketball or beer.

Perhaps I should have used teal.

[TallTitan34]

Relievers in today's game are just as important as starters, if not more.

The Brewers were able to withstand a month without Knebel.  I'm not sure they could do that without Hader, and if they did it would take totally reassigning rolls in the bullpen and relying more on starting pitching.

I think the value of a closer has always been overrated.  Important?  Yes.  But I think the Brewers over the past couple of decades are proof that it's not too hard to find effective closers.  Axford, Hoffman, Turnbow, Cordero.

Pick a lane buddy.

[wadesworld]

Pick a lane buddy.

Relievers are only closers now?  Once again, just like when you listed 7 pitchers that were all from the NL, despite 5 playing for the Astros (x2), Yankees, Indians, and Red Sox, I'm sorry that I'm confused that all relievers are closers...

[Jockey]

Perhaps I should have used teal.

Mea cupla.

I get annoyed when my snarky comments aren't taken as such. I should have known better.

[Lennys Tap]

Relievers are only closers now? 

So in your opinion "relievers are just as important than starters" but closers aren't - they're overrated. Hmmm...so is it middle relievers, long relievers or mop up guys who are just as important as starters?

[🏀]

So in your opinion "relievers are more important than starters" but closers aren't - they're overrated. Hmmm...so is it middle relievers, long relievers or mop up guys who are more important than starters?

1. LOOGY
2. Setup man
3. Bullpen catcher
4. Long relief
5. Setup to the setup man
6. Closer
7. Short relief

[Lennys Tap]

1. LOOGY
2. Setup man
3. Bullpen catcher
4. Long relief
5. Setup to the setup man
6. Closer
7. Short relief

Well done.

[buckchuckler]

Huge weekend for the Dodgers by the way.  Maybe Turner returning has helped them right the ship, maybe.

[wadesworld]

So in your opinion "relievers are just as important than starters" but closers aren't - they're overrated. Hmmm...so is it middle relievers, long relievers or mop up guys who are just as important as starters?

I think the idea of locking a guy into pitching only he 9th inning is completely overrated and that has been the movement over the last 3 years. People here make it very hard to believe they actually follow baseball.

[GGGG]

So in your opinion "relievers are just as important than starters" but closers aren't - they're overrated. Hmmm...so is it middle relievers, long relievers or mop up guys who are just as important as starters?

I think his point that a reliever that specializes in closing is overrated.  That you could pitch that guy in high leverage situations in earlier innings to greater effect.

[wadesworld]

I think his point that a reliever that specializes in closing is overrated.  That you could pitch that guy in high leverage situations in earlier innings to greater effect.

Right. Not the actual pitchers who are closers. The position of locking your best reliever into a single inning at the end of the game is stupid and outdated and anybody who hasn't realized that is stuck in old thinking. Give me my best reliever up 1 with a guy at 2nd and no outs in the 6th or 7th over saving him until the 9th when you may be losing by 3 or winning by 6 at that point.

[🏀]

I think his point that a reliever that specializes in closing is overrated.  That you could pitch that guy in high leverage situations in earlier innings to greater effect.

It is overrated from a fans perspective. However, outside of the playoffs, what teams last season successfully deployed their best reliever in high leverage situations only?

I can think of two, which could be debated who the best reliever was.

[TallTitan34]

Relievers are only closers now?  Once again, just like when you listed 7 pitchers that were all from the NL, despite 5 playing for the Astros (x2), Yankees, Indians, and Red Sox, I'm sorry that I'm confused that all relievers are closers...

Again, I don't care about your Hader as NL Cy Young arguement.

I was simply naming starting pitchers (no matter the league) that are more important than the best reliever in baseball.

[Lennys Tap]

I think his point that a reliever that specializes in closing is overrated.  That you could pitch that guy in high leverage situations in earlier innings to greater effect.

I'm familiar with the Brian Kenny school on this. He's an interesting out of the box guy with whom I sometimes agree. But on this issue, the old thinking that Wades decries (that the last 3 outs are the most difficult to get and you save your best for that) still prevails among the vast majority of teams.

As for his assertion that relief pitchers are as important as starters - that's absurd. A good starter gives you 200+ innings, relievers 60-80. Does he think that guys who get 200 ABs are as important as starter who get 600?

[GGGG]

I'm familiar with the Brian Kenny school on this. He's an interesting out of the box guy with whom I sometimes agree. But on this issue, the old thinking that Wades decries (that the last 3 outs are the most difficult to get and you save your best for that) still prevails among the vast majority of teams.

As for his assertion that relief pitchers are as important as starters - that's absurd. A good starter gives you 200+ innings, relievers 60-80. Does he think that guys who get 200 ABs are as important as starter who get 600?

I really don't have an opinion on either of these.  Just attempting to clarify what he meant.

[Jockey]

As for his assertion that relief pitchers are as important as starters - that's absurd. A good starter gives you 200+ innings, relievers 60-80. Does he think that guys who get 200 ABs are as important as starter who get 600?

That's old thinking as the game has changed. Only 12 teams had a starter who went 200+ innings last year - none over 215. It will likely be less than that this year.

We are nearing the time that few if any pitchers will throw 200 IP.