Bitcoin

[mu03eng]

Hards

There is nothing the Chinese would love more than leveling the playing field. Big time goal of the Chinese.

Example, the news that the Chinese are slowing/stopping their purchase of US treasury bonds.

[Tugg Speedman]

Example, the news that the Chinese are slowing/stopping their purchase of US treasury bonds.

That is fake news

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-usa-debt/china-says-diversifying-fx-reserves-warns-report-on-u-s-bonds-may-be-fake-idUSKBN1F00CC

[Eldon]

For anyone into coding in R or Python, here are a couple of demonstrations of 'baby block chains'

R:
https://correlaid.org/blog/posts/blockchain-explained

Python:
https://medium.com/crypto-currently/lets-build-the-tiniest-blockchain-e70965a248b

(even skipping the coding, the articles are helpful for understanding the basics of the mechanics of blockchain technology)

[mu03eng]

That is fake news

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-usa-debt/china-says-diversifying-fx-reserves-warns-report-on-u-s-bonds-may-be-fake-idUSKBN1F00CC

You aren't using the phrase correctly. The article doesn't do anything to say it isn't happening, simply spinning the reasons that it is happening ("rebalancing"). Could be something could be nothing, but it's not definitely nothing.

[reinko]

Hope none of you guys invested in Bitconnect   

https://bitcoinist.com/bitconnect-shuts-amid-crypto-crash/

[TSmith34, Inc.]

You aren't using the phrase correctly. The article doesn't do anything to say it isn't happening, simply spinning the reasons that it is happening ("rebalancing"). Could be something could be nothing, but it's not definitely nothing.

Fake News doesn't mean what is means anymore, apparently.  A recent survey/poll shows that 42% of a certain party says something is Fake News if it paints that party in a negative light even if they agree it is 100% true.

Apparently Fake News now means "news I don't like".

[MU82]

Bitcoin plunges below $10K

https://seekingalpha.com/news/3323203-bitcoin-plunges-10k

Jan. 17, 2018 8:38 AM ET|By: Stephen Alpher, SA News Editor
The price has recovered to $10.2K at the moment, but Bitcoin earlier this morning was back in four-figure territory as the broad selloff in cryptos deepens.

Most in traditional media and asset management are congratulating themselves for spotting and avoiding a bubble of massive proportions, but to cryptocurrency veterans, this plunge is nothing out of the ordinary. Who's correct remains in the cards.

Ethereum - which soared to news highs this year even as Bitcoin was languishing - has been hit particularly hard this week. It's down 16% today to $878, and about 40% since topping $1,400 over the weekend.

Ripple is down another 10% to $1.04, now off more than 70% in the past 12 days.

[Tugg Speedman]

Sounds a taxi driver in the early days of Uber.

Visa CEO: Bitcoin is Not a Payment System
https://news.bitcoin.com/visa-ceo-bitcoin-not-payment-system/

Visa, the world’s largest credit card company, is widely regarded as being hostile to Bitcoin. It would seem intuitive that a traditional financial provider should look unkindly on anything that threatens its hegemony. Publicly, though, the company has had very little to say about Bitcoin, preferring to focus on matters within its own domain. In a CNBC interview on Wednesday, the corporation’s CEO broke his silence, opining – predictably – that Bitcoin is not a payments system.

[Hards Alumni]

Bitcoin plunges below $10K

https://seekingalpha.com/news/3323203-bitcoin-plunges-10k

Jan. 17, 2018 8:38 AM ET|By: Stephen Alpher, SA News Editor
The price has recovered to $10.2K at the moment, but Bitcoin earlier this morning was back in four-figure territory as the broad selloff in cryptos deepens.

Most in traditional media and asset management are congratulating themselves for spotting and avoiding a bubble of massive proportions, but to cryptocurrency veterans, this plunge is nothing out of the ordinary. Who's correct remains in the cards.

Ethereum - which soared to news highs this year even as Bitcoin was languishing - has been hit particularly hard this week. It's down 16% today to $878, and about 40% since topping $1,400 over the weekend.

Ripple is down another 10% to $1.04, now off more than 70% in the past 12 days.

Just to be clear, we will see articles like this every time there is a drop in bitcoin.  You will see these because they get clicks.  These type of articles get clicks because it reaffirms their belief (incorrectly) that bitcoin is:

1. a ponzi scheme
2. made up internet money
3. any other number of foolish myths.

They'll click it and show their friends, and say, "I told you so!"  This is the media culture we now live in.

When bitcoin goes up, the media will call it a bubble, and they will write stories about it and people will share it and call it a bubble.

Eventually, when BTC becomes adopted and accepted as a common currency (I had the option to use it on expedia.com yesterday) people will brag to their friends that they bought some back in the late 2010's "just in case".

[Tugg Speedman]

Just to be clear, we will see articles like this every time there is a drop in bitcoin.  You will see these because they get clicks.  These type of articles get clicks because it reaffirms their belief (incorrectly) that bitcoin is:

1. a ponzi scheme
2. made up internet money
3. any other number of foolish myths.

They'll click it and show their friends, and say, "I told you so!"  This is the media culture we now live in.

When bitcoin goes up, the media will call it a bubble, and they will write stories about it and people will share it and call it a bubble.

Eventually, when BTC becomes adopted and accepted as a common currency (I had the option to use it on expedia.com yesterday) people will brag to their friends that they bought some back in the late 2010's "just in case".

Completly agree


And regarding the last point (and the post above from the chairman of VISA bashing bitcoin) ...

What the internet is missing is micropayments.  It is a product that is desperately needed and the current credit card/banking system cannot provide it.  They are either too slow, too bureaucratic, too expensive or all three.  Cryptos can solve this are would be filling a huge need (note I say "crypto" acknowledging it might not be bitcoin or ethereum but it will be something).

To repeat, cryptos, and what they can offer is a product that is needed in a big way.  This is not a Field of Dreams "build it and they will come" made up a product that no one really wants.  You want to get rid of your stupid monthly fees instead preferring a pay as you go in micro amounts (a penny a minute to stream, 5 cents to read an article, etc.).  The banking system simply cannot evolve to offer this so here comes a disruptor to offer it and change traditional banking and credit card business models forever. (note I said "change" and not "eliminate."  Taxis have not gone away but their business model today bears little relation to their business model seven years ago, right before Uber was invented.)

[Benny B]

Completly agree


And regarding the last point (and the post above from the chairman of VISA bashing bitcoin) ...

What the internet is missing is micropayments.  It is a product that is desperately needed and the current credit card/banking system cannot provide it.  They are either too slow, too bureaucratic, too expensive or all three.  Cryptos can solve this are would be filling a huge need (note I say "crypto" acknowledging it might not be bitcoin or ethereum but it will be something).

To repeat, cryptos, and what they can offer is a product that is needed in a big way.  This is not a Field of Dreams "build it and they will come" made up a product that no one really wants.  You want to get rid of your stupid monthly fees instead preferring a pay as you go in micro amounts (a penny a minute to stream, 5 cents to read an article, etc.).  The banking system simply cannot evolve to offer this so here comes a disruptor to offer it and change traditional banking and credit card business models forever. (note I said "change" and not "eliminate."  Taxis have not gone away but their business model today bears little relation to their business model seven years ago, right before Uber was invented.)

With that said, how do you decouple the need for micropayments (or any low-cost, universal method of value transfer) from the crypto structure?  In other words... why the hell do you have to mine for cryptos?  Why can't they simply be introduced, directly pegged to an existing fiat currency or value store - at least initially - (instead of being indirectly pegged to the cost of electricity), and distributed to anyone who wants to buy?

The biggest myth about Bitcoin: there's no cost to transfer or transact BTC.  In theory, that may be the case, but look at the US Dollar... how many ways are there to be charged today simply to transfer cash from one person to the next?  Credit card fees, ATM fees, bank maintenance fees, broker fees, check printing costs, money order/moneygram/Western Union fees, Coinstar, gift card monthly fees, etc.  It's already begun with BTC... the transactional fees being paid to the exchanges are in some cases (e.g. limit orders) ridiculous.

I am still failing to see where BTC either fills a void or provides a more cost-efficient solution to an existing need.

[Hards Alumni]

With that said, how do you decouple the need for micropayments (or any low-cost, universal method of value transfer) from the crypto structure?  In other words... why the hell do you have to mine for cryptos?  Why can't they simply be introduced, directly pegged to an existing fiat currency or value store - at least initially - (instead of being indirectly pegged to the cost of electricity), and distributed to anyone who wants to buy?

This already occurs.  Just not using BTC.  There are plenty of alt-coins that you don't need to mine.  Technology evolves.  Look into Request Network (REQ) or Raiblocks (XRB).

The biggest myth about Bitcoin: there's no cost to transfer or transact BTC.  In theory, that may be the case, but look at the US Dollar... how many ways are there to be charged today simply to transfer cash from one person to the next?  Credit card fees, ATM fees, bank maintenance fees, broker fees, check printing costs, money order/moneygram/Western Union fees, Coinstar, gift card monthly fees, etc.  It's already begun with BTC... the transactional fees being paid to the exchanges are in some cases (e.g. limit orders) ridiculous.

I am still failing to see where BTC either fills a void or provides a more cost-efficient solution to an existing need.

This confusion stems from a lack of knowledge about BTC.  There is a transaction fee on coinbase... and it is extremely HIGH.  So use the free market to look elsewhere.

The main void that BTC fills is security.  There are also extremely low fees.  FAR cheaper than using a credit card.

[forgetful]

Eventually, when BTC becomes adopted and accepted as a common currency (I had the option to use it on expedia.com yesterday) people will brag to their friends that they bought some back in the late 2010's "just in case".

Not saying you are wrong, but I heard similar statements about beanie babies, and how they would brag to their friends about how they invested in them.

Suggesting that this is a sure thing/guarantee is simply a gross overstatement. 

This confusion stems from a lack of knowledge about BTC.  There is a transaction fee on coinbase... and it is extremely HIGH.  So use the free market to look elsewhere.

As BTC gains popularity, hacking of exchanges and wallets will increase, requiring increasing degrees of security, which will increase the base cost of dealing in BTC. 

Suggesting that the free market will "save" people from high transaction fees is a bit absurd.  When/If the market shifts to BTC, companies will corner the market on transactions and increase the price of a transaction until there is little (from cost to the consumer) perspective difference between a credit card transaction and a BTC transaction. 

[LAZER]

Sounds a taxi driver in the early days of Uber.

Visa CEO: Bitcoin is Not a Payment System
https://news.bitcoin.com/visa-ceo-bitcoin-not-payment-system/

Visa, the world’s largest credit card company, is widely regarded as being hostile to Bitcoin. It would seem intuitive that a traditional financial provider should look unkindly on anything that threatens its hegemony. Publicly, though, the company has had very little to say about Bitcoin, preferring to focus on matters within its own domain. In a CNBC interview on Wednesday, the corporation’s CEO broke his silence, opining – predictably – that Bitcoin is not a payments system.

What's the value of using Bitcoin as a payment system?

[MU82]

Just to be clear, we will see articles like this every time there is a drop in bitcoin.  You will see these because they get clicks.

They get clicks because people are interested in them. There SHOULD be articles whenever any publicly traded entity goes up or down 20% in price. I'd be disappointed in the financial media if they didn't do articles like these.

But yes, coverage of bitcoin does go to the extremes.

[Hards Alumni]

They get clicks because people are interested in them. There SHOULD be articles whenever any publicly traded entity goes up or down 20% in price. I'd be disappointed in the financial media if they didn't do articles like these.

But yes, coverage of bitcoin does go to the extremes.

Up over 20% in the last 24 hours. 

[Hards Alumni]

Not saying you are wrong, but I heard similar statements about beanie babies, and how they would brag to their friends about how they invested in them.

Suggesting that this is a sure thing/guarantee is simply a gross overstatement. 

Sounds an awful lot like you're saying I'm wrong.  This is absolutely a sure thing, technology-wise.

As BTC gains popularity, hacking of exchanges and wallets will increase, requiring increasing degrees of security, which will increase the base cost of dealing in BTC. 

Suggesting that the free market will "save" people from high transaction fees is a bit absurd.  When/If the market shifts to BTC, companies will corner the market on transactions and increase the price of a transaction until there is little (from cost to the consumer) perspective difference between a credit card transaction and a BTC transaction.

Totally disagree.  Seems like you need to better understand the technology.  Companies can't increase the price of a transaction.

[Benny B]

This already occurs.  Just not using BTC.  There are plenty of alt-coins that you don't need to mine.  Technology evolves.  Look into Request Network (REQ) or Raiblocks (XRB).

This confusion stems from a lack of knowledge about BTC.  There is a transaction fee on coinbase... and it is extremely HIGH.  So use the free market to look elsewhere.

The main void that BTC fills is security.  There are also extremely low fees.  FAR cheaper than using a credit card.

The cost of a BTC transaction - in terms of the cost of the electricity used - does not break even with credit card fees until around $900-1,000.  Granted, that's at US average prices, but even if you could get electricity at a fraction of that cost overseas, BTC will never be cheaper than credit cards for everyday spending, i.e. purchases under $100.

How does BTC fill a security void... Basis security? I feel pretty secure about the USD, I'm sure there are plenty of Brits feeling pretty secure about GBP, etc. despite not being backed by anything of value (except the faith and credit of the respective governments).  Physical security?  My cash is in FDIC-insured accounts.  Value security?  I don't know that anything whose chart looks like every Six Flags in the world mashed together could be considered to have any element of value security to it.

[Hards Alumni]

What's the value of using Bitcoin as a payment system?

Simply put, security, low transaction fees, and anonymity.

decentralization of money easily transferable between people.

[Hards Alumni]

The cost of a BTC transaction - in terms of the cost of the electricity used - does not break even with credit card fees until around $900-1,000.  Granted, that's at US average prices, but even if you could get electricity at a fraction of that cost overseas, BTC will never be cheaper than credit cards for everyday spending, i.e. purchases under $100.

How does BTC fill a security void... Basis security? I feel pretty secure about the USD, I'm sure there are plenty of Brits feeling pretty secure about GBP, etc. despite not being backed by anything of value (except the faith and credit of the respective governments).  Physical security?  My cash is in FDIC-insured accounts.  Value security?  I don't know that anything whose chart looks like every Six Flags in the world mashed together could be considered to have any element of value security to it.

Bud, I'm not going to bust out a curriculum and run through everything that blockchain has to offer in security.  I don't have that sort of time, and the information is readily available for anyone who chooses to learn about it.  Let me direct you to a few terms to research if you are interested.  SegWit, and Lightning Network.  Technology evolves, and people are working towards solving the problems with BTC that you are laying out.

[forgetful]

Sounds an awful lot like you're saying I'm wrong.  This is absolutely a sure thing, technology-wise.

Totally disagree.  Seems like you need to better understand the technology.  Companies can't increase the price of a transaction.

By technology, do you mean Blockchain is a sure thing?  Because there I would agree.  If you mean cryptos, then I don't.  They are not necessarily the same thing. 

And, Companies can and will control transactions.  It is largely uncontrolled, and unregulated now, because it isn't a major player.  When it does become more common, and widely used, it will be regulated, controlled, and prices determined by major companies.  That is how the economy works.  If something has value, they will ensure that they control the market. 

As the technology evolves (as it must), they will reign in the "free/unregulated" aspect of it. 

[mu03eng]

The only thing that keeps me from saying a crypto will provide the micropayment that is necessary is the inherent volatility of the crypto. It may work if something like Bitcoin becomes a medium of exchange where I can simply say Company A here is my 5 cents for the article and my 5 cents is converted to bitcoin transferred to Company A who can then turn it back into USD without cost/effort. But until it does that, the inherent volatility of the cryptos prevent it from being a standard transactional currency. John Q Public is not going to accept paying 0.5 bitcoin for Netflix today and 1.7 bitcoin for Netflix tomorrow.*

*all of this is a gross simplification but even the fact that you have to simplify it so much represents why it will be a slow adoption as a medium of exchange.

[LAZER]

Simply put, security, low transaction fees, and anonymity.

decentralization of money easily transferable between people.

Does Bitcoin offer better security and lower transaction fees than Visa? Do consumers really care that much about anonymity?

[mu03eng]

Does Bitcoin offer better security and lower transaction fees than Visa? Do consumers really care that much about anonymity?

Blockchain offers better security and less friction for transactions (anonymity really #nomatta to the general pop). The catch is what entity is using blockchain to deliver it's transactional service and what fees they tack on. Once some of the large transaction companies (Mastercard, Visa, US Bank, etc) pull their heads out of the neither regions they can easily compete with the cryptos as a medium of micro-transactions.

This stuff ain't rocket science but it's a question of whether the major financial companies want to be market makers or let the cryptos create the market and then swoop in and squeeze them out.

[mu03eng]

Blockchain offers better security and less friction for transactions (anonymity really #nomatta to the general pop). The catch is what entity is using blockchain to deliver it's transactional service and what fees they tack on. Once some of the large transaction companies (Mastercard, Visa, US Bank, etc) pull their heads out of the neither regions they can easily compete with the cryptos as a medium of micro-transactions.

This stuff ain't rocket science but it's a question of whether the major financial companies want to be market makers or let the cryptos create the market and then swoop in and squeeze them out.

Follow on, I would expect Amazon and Google to provide a blockchain backed microtransaction medium within the next two years.