minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good

[Mutaman]

i never said "nothing.  ok, let me lay out what i do for those in poverty-pay my taxes,

https://youtu.be/JVtc3fnbJ-s

[rocket surgeon]

Agreed. But the problem is that being born into the middle or upper class does absolve you from making bad choices in a majority of cases. I have a friend, love him to death. He was born into a middle class family. He is an alcoholic (though he has it managed now), has tried every narcotic known to man and been addicted to several of them at various times. Gone to rehab and relapsed multiple times. Been to jail multiple times. Despite this, he has steady employment and is firmly in the middle class. He's there because his parents were able to afford to send him to treatment multiple times and judges were willing to give him leniency because of his class (and i would guess because of his race as well). If he had been born into a family in poverty, he would likely be homeless or in jail.

My friend screwed up multiple times but he was able to figure it out and become an extremely productive member of society. I don't think people born into poverty deserve less grace simply because of their socio-economic status. In fact, I think they deserve more grace because they have less access to education.

  glad to hear your friend has been figuring it out.

      have you ever seen a "rap sheet" for some the "less fortunate" out there?  and they got their 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th.....chances because of ....? 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

  glad to hear your friend has been figuring it out.

      have you ever seen a "rap sheet" for some the "less fortunate" out there?  and they got their 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th.....chances because of ....? 

Have you? Because I can give you dozens of studies that show that those with lower socio-economic statuses and minority status receive harsher sentences for the same crimes. Don't trot out tired old cliches. Actually do the research.

And why did you put less fortunate in quotation marks?

[rocket surgeon]

Have you? Because I can give you dozens of studies that show that those with lower socio-economic statuses and minority status receive harsher sentences for the same crimes. Don't trot out tired old cliches. Actually do the research.

And why did you put less fortunate in quotation marks?

   i put "less fortunate" in " " marks because many have different interpretations of the "less fortunate"

yes i have seen many rap sheets and they happen to take up way too many dead trees for me.  studies?  i'm open.  let's see a few.  tired cliches?  and what may those be?  are you trying to tell me that those in the lower socio-economic classes do not get a few chances?  comes a time man when enough is enough and we  need to remove people from society when they show that they cannot behave themselves.   you've heard of recidivism, eyn'a?  i don't even want to guess what chance# that was

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

   i put "less fortunate" in " " marks because many have different interpretations of the "less fortunate"

yes i have seen many rap sheets and they happen to take up way too many dead trees for me.  studies?  i'm open.  let's see a few.  tired cliches?  and what may those be?  are you trying to tell me that those in the lower socio-economic classes do not get a few chances?  comes a time man when enough is enough and we  need to remove people from society when they show that they cannot behave themselves.   you've heard of recidivism, eyn'a?  i don't even want to guess what chance# that was

So was my friend needed to be removed from society? I'm not saying there isn't a point where yes, people do need to be removed from society. Just that it seems that "point" is at different positions on the scale for different people.

Do you deny that people from lower socio-economic statuses have less "margin for error" as Pakuni put it?

[Jay Bee]

And why did you put less fortunate in quotation marks?

Some of you folks might be so 'loving' or searching to do 'good' that it hurts you/us.

[B. McBannerson]

Right. As the authors of 'Freaknomics' found many years ago, the #1 predictor of a child's academic success isn't his or her school district or teacher or type of school. It's the number of books in his or her home.
In other words, educated parents who care about learning produce educated kids who care about learning.

There are hosts of problems with some of our public school systems (and, to be fair, others that are beyond outstanding), but it's laughable  that  some continue to first and foremost blame teachers, who at best have kids for 5-6 hours a day/180 days a year, while ignoring the other, often more important, influences on a child's education.
Like, let's ignore that a kid is growing up in a gang-infested neighborhood, where walking to school is a dangerous proposition, where his single-parent mother works two jobs to put meager food on the table, where he has to raise his younger siblings cause his mom is always at work and dad is in prison or just absent, where there are no books or computers in the home, where there are no expectations of success, where future prospects aren't clearly evident.
No, that kid's real problem is the teacher's union.
OK.

I'm not saying that teacher's unions aren't at times counterproductive, but on the list of things negatively influencing education these days, they're way, way down the list.

So all those Washington politicians, including presidents, that choose to send their kids to private schools instead of public - nevermind. 

Here's a study that says private schools beat public, one of the reasons I sent one child to Marquette.  At the collegiate level, most of the top 50 schools in the nation are private, but one can get an excellent education at any number of private or public.

I've attended both.  Pros and cons to both.  My kids went to very good public schools, private for college. To each their own.

An article from a different perspective  https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/private-schools-vs-public-schools-why-private-schools-are-better

For some people, private is truly better, same is true for public.  It would not surprise me if this also came down along ideological lines to some extent, it seems to all too often.

[rocket surgeon]

So was my friend needed to be removed from society? I'm not saying there isn't a point where yes, people do need to be removed from society. Just that it seems that "point" is at different positions on the scale for different people.

Do you deny that people from lower socio-economic statuses have less "margin for error" as Pakuni put it?

re: your friend? yes-as you said, he went to rehab a few times, relapsed a few times, back to rehab and for right now, he is doing well-i hope he continues to get it today, then the next today and the next...by going to rehab, he was removing himself from society until he could learn how to cope safely for others and himself-God bless him

do those in a lower socio-economic caste have less margin for error?  from a standpoint of access to our legal system, i.e. dream teams of lawyers?  absolutely.  from a standpoint of who gets the most chances at breaking the law before they are sent to the cross-bars motel?  that's a more complicated question and depends on the severity of the crime(s).  unfortunately, many of those aren't taken too seriously until they kill someone.  then i guess that's really really bad.  even when they have multiple violations involving guns(you know, guns are bad bad bad) well they sure in the heck aren't legally carrying that gun.  that in and of itself should be enough for the "anti-gun" crowd to throw him/her away for a long long time,  so often they plea out the illegal gun thing and slap them on the hands for the other stuff and let them out on a signature bond.  now what the heck do the judges or commissioners think they are going to do while out on signature bond?  decide to go back to school? go job hunting? (buzz kill)  or go knock off another corner grocery store...hmmm, i'll take door #3 for recidivism alex. 

tamu, please just do a quick check on length of rap sheets and severity of crimes committed before you talk about "chances"  we have too many judges allowing for these people to staying our society for too long, hurting innocent people.  are these judges ever held accountable? 

  i thought justice was blind?  isn't that what they tell us anyway?  you know, you see that scale thingy with the blind folded babe on every lawyer and judges desk.  well they make great paper weights anyway

[rocket surgeon]

So all those Washington politicians, including presidents, that choose to send their kids to private schools instead of public - nevermind. 

Here's a study that says private schools beat public, one of the reasons I sent one child to Marquette.  At the collegiate level, most of the top 50 schools in the nation are private, but one can get an excellent education at any number of private or public.

I've attended both.  Pros and cons to both.  My kids went to very good public schools, private for college. To each their own.

An article from a different perspective  https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/private-schools-vs-public-schools-why-private-schools-are-better

For some people, private is truly better, same is true for public.  It would not surprise me if this also came down along ideological lines to some extent, it seems to all too often.

great points!  i went to private grade school, public high school, then MU.  sent my kids thru private grade, middle and high school all the way thru MU.   for them, i would do it over in a heart beat.  yes, the $10k tuition for high school stung a little knowing i could have saved that toward their college education, but they are on their way to becoming 2 very successful guys of which i am very proud of.  they are probably in a better financial position now than i was at that same time out of school and i have to credit all the above for that. 
there are some excellent public schools in our area, but i would have had to send them further away as well. 

here's the other issue that could become a whole topic in and of itself-"grade inflation" 

  this is endemic and quite honestly, i don't know how to stop this moving train.  with the increase in "A" students across the board, yet falling ACT and SAT scores, how does one properly evaluate someones education?  as we have seen since 1998, the "A" student has gone from 37% to 48% of thegraduating classes-wow!  we are sending out a new generation of brainiacs, eyn'a?  i doubt it.  but all these kids and their parents think so anyway.  the ramifications of this are far and wide

   https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/07/17/easy-a-nearly-half-hs-seniors-graduate-average/485787001/

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

re: your friend? yes-as you said, he went to rehab a few times, relapsed a few times, back to rehab and for right now, he is doing well-i hope he continues to get it today, then the next today and the next...by going to rehab, he was removing himself from society until he could learn how to cope safely for others and himself-God bless him

So my friend was given multiple chances to get it right. But you complain about other people getting multiple chances. And thank you for assuming he went to rehab. He didn't, he was dragged.

do those in a lower socio-economic caste have less margin for error?  from a standpoint of access to our legal system, i.e. dream teams of lawyers?  absolutely.  from a standpoint of who gets the most chances at breaking the law before they are sent to the cross-bars motel?  that's a more complicated question and depends on the severity of the crime(s).  unfortunately, many of those aren't taken too seriously until they kill someone.  then i guess that's really really bad.  even when they have multiple violations involving guns(you know, guns are bad bad bad) well they sure in the heck aren't legally carrying that gun.  that in and of itself should be enough for the "anti-gun" crowd to throw him/her away for a long long time,  so often they plea out the illegal gun thing and slap them on the hands for the other stuff and let them out on a signature bond.  now what the heck do the judges or commissioners think they are going to do while out on signature bond?  decide to go back to school? go job hunting? (buzz kill)  or go knock off another corner grocery store...hmmm, i'll take door #3 for recidivism alex. 

You missed the point of my question. I wasn't talking about margin for error just in the legal system. I mean in general. Do people born into poverty have less margin for error in escaping poverty than those not born into poverty.

tamu, please just do a quick check on length of rap sheets and severity of crimes committed before you talk about "chances"  we have too many judges allowing for these people to staying our society for too long, hurting innocent people.  are these judges ever held accountable? 

Rocket, I work regularly with the police in my job. I'm well aware of what's out there. Why is a dentist looking at rap sheets regularly? I'm sure there are examples of people who get too many chances. But my guess is most of your "long rap sheets" contain a bunch of crimes with short maximum sentences. And since prison takes low level criminals and turns them into violent ones.....the mass incarceration system churns on.

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/assets/141027_iachr_racial_disparities_aclu_submission_0.pdf

i thought justice was blind?

Its cute that you think that.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

So all those Washington politicians, including presidents, that choose to send their kids to private schools instead of public - nevermind. 

Here's a study that says private schools beat public, one of the reasons I sent one child to Marquette.  At the collegiate level, most of the top 50 schools in the nation are private, but one can get an excellent education at any number of private or public.

I've attended both.  Pros and cons to both.  My kids went to very good public schools, private for college. To each their own.

An article from a different perspective  https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/private-schools-vs-public-schools-why-private-schools-are-better

For some people, private is truly better, same is true for public.  It would not surprise me if this also came down along ideological lines to some extent, it seems to all too often.

I have attended both private and public schools.  Will likely send my kids to Catholic school. 

The opinion piece you linked does spell out why people might prefer a private school to a public school.  Largely it comes down to feeling like you have some control of inputs. Religious ed, special curriculum, safety, being surrounded by students from like minded families, shared values, etc.

 But nowhere does it say students will perform better in private school.  Which if the crux of my argument.  The idea of expanding access to private schools through vouchers is not the solution to poorly performing public school students.

[Spotcheck Billy]

do those in a lower socio-economic caste have less margin for error?  from a standpoint of access to our legal system, i.e. dream teams of lawyers?  absolutely.  from a standpoint of who gets the most chances at breaking the law before they are sent to the cross-bars motel?  that's a more complicated question and depends on the severity of the crime(s).  unfortunately, many of those aren't taken too seriously until they kill someone.  then i guess that's really really bad.  even when they have multiple violations involving guns(you know, guns are bad bad bad) well they sure in the heck aren't legally carrying that gun.  that in and of itself should be enough for the "anti-gun" crowd to throw him/her away for a long long time,  so often they plea out the illegal gun thing and slap them on the hands for the other stuff and let them out on a signature bond.  now what the heck do the judges or commissioners think they are going to do while out on signature bond?  decide to go back to school? go job hunting? (buzz kill)  or go knock off another corner grocery store...hmmm, i'll take door #3 for recidivism alex. 

You really convinced yourself that those people you painted that "have multiple violations involving guns" are getting released on signature bonds? I think you're confusing the white collar criminals you see getting arrested on Law & Order with reality.

[rocket surgeon]

   "Rocket, I work regularly with the police in my job. I'm well aware of what's out there. Why is a dentist looking at rap sheets regularly?"

  well, let's see; my nephew is a chief of police, his brother has been the elected county sheriff for multiple terms, my cousin is retiring the sheriff's department.  he has been in charge of the swat team.  my family, fortunately or not is full of attorneys, including a retired judge.  we have discussed this topic from both sides

as for your friend-if he is still doing well, that's all that counts.  not many people go running into their jail cell screaming of joy

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

   "Rocket, I work regularly with the police in my job. I'm well aware of what's out there. Why is a dentist looking at rap sheets regularly?"

  well, let's see; my nephew is a chief of police, his brother has been the elected county sheriff for multiple terms, my cousin is retiring the sheriff's department.  he has been in charge of the swat team.  my family, fortunately or not is full of attorneys, including a retired judge.  we have discussed this topic from both sides

as for your friend-if he is still doing well, that's all that counts.  not many people go running into their jail cell screaming of joy

Thank you. That does give some more context. So a dentist in a family full of law enforcement? I'm sure there's a joke in their somewhere.

We've been going around in circles for a while now. I'll leave by just repeating my main point and you are free to have the last word.  Everyone has a chance to make it in America. But everyone has a different margin for error for achieving that chance. In my opinion, too much of that margin for error is decided by factors beyond an individual's control. Specifically, what family they were born into. I believe it is our duty as decent human beings, and specifically for me my duty as a Christian to try to even that playing field as much as possible.

"Every valley shall be filled in, every mountain and hill made low. The crooked roads shall become straight, the rough ways smooth." Luke 3:5

[rocket surgeon]

Thank you. That does give some more context. So a dentist in a family full of law enforcement? I'm sure there's a joke in their somewhere.

We've been going around in circles for a while now. I'll leave by just repeating my main point and you are free to have the last word.  Everyone has a chance to make it in America. But everyone has a different margin for error for achieving that chance. In my opinion, too much of that margin for error is decided by factors beyond an individual's control. Specifically, what family they were born into. I believe it is our duty as decent human beings, and specifically for me my duty as a Christian to try to even that playing field as much as possible.

"Every valley shall be filled in, every mountain and hill made low. The crooked roads shall become straight, the rough ways smooth." Luke 3:5

and you had to end with a Luke...hard to argue with him   your thoughts and motivations cannot be faulted as they exhibit an empathy we all should have to some degree or another.   however, it is the differing modes of action, sans advocacy that should be heeded.  we have in place, a number of programs etc. to address these areas.  our government(inefficient as they are) has instituted many "safety nets" which mandate us to participate and that is fine.  some of these programs work better than others.  the original goals of many of these programs were just that-"safety net".  meaning, we're here to help if/when it is needed,  to get one back on their feet again and then back into society.  i understand there are some who will never be able to, for numerous reasons, return to society as a capable person.  this is the part that has EXPANDED.  examples-the explosion of "handicapped" stickers for parking/disabilities, service dogs for whatever, welfare has become a lifestyle, etc-those are just EXAMPLES of how people are stretching the original meaning/purpose of what these programs original intentions were. 

  i feel that i am a pretty honest guy and i guess my expectations are that more people would be the same.  i hate people taking advantage of others for selfish gain.  i hate cheating.  i think we as a society can do better, rooting out the scum and the miscreants(too many to enumerate) and getting the help to those who not only need it, but appreciate it to the point that they may(note, i said MAY, not expected)) someday be able to pay it forward.

my ending psalm or thought would be an addendum to yours; may those who abuse the system,  someday(soon) wake up to see the wrongs of their actions.  much like your friend who went in to rehab kicking and screaming only to come out realizing his wrongs.  realizing the good life perpetrates more and becomes an obstacle to relapse.  we must see the rewards of our actions in order to maintain a life worth living; doing the right thing and then continuing.   

[Eldon]

For those of you who care about data, evidence, etc., here is a new study (one of the authors, Neumark, is one of the foremost experts on the minimum wage):

People Versus Machines: The Impact of Minimum Wages on Automatable Jobs
by Grace Lordan and David Neumark

We study the effect of minimum wage increases on employment in automatable jobs - jobs in which employers may find it easier to substitute machines for people - focusing on low-skilled workers from whom such substitution may be spurred by minimum wage increases. Based on CPS data from 1980-2015, we find that increasing the minimum wage decreases significantly the share of automatable employment held by low-skilled workers, and increases the likelihood that low-skilled workers in automatable jobs become unemployed. The average effects mask significant heterogeneity by industry and demographic group, including substantive adverse effects for older, low-skilled workers in manufacturing. The findings imply that groups often ignored in the minimum wage literature are in fact quite vulnerable to employment changes and job loss because of automation following a minimum wage increase.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w23667.pdf

[Pakuni]

Is Target on a suicide mission?

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/25/target-to-raise-its-hourly-minimum-wage.html

[warriorchick]

Is Target on a suicide mission?

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/25/target-to-raise-its-hourly-minimum-wage.html

Absolutely not. This was a business decision. No one is forcing them to raise their wages.

They are going to attract better employees than the Walmart across the street that pays less.

[B. McBannerson]

Is Target on a suicide mission?

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/25/target-to-raise-its-hourly-minimum-wage.html

Target was $80 a share last year.  Hasn't been above $60 in 2017.  They've been on some kind of mission. 

[MUBurrow]

Target was $80 a share last year.  Hasn't been above $60 in 2017.  They've been on some kind of mission.

And it was $37.50 in 2000 and only spent about 6 mos below the mid 30's all through the recession. Meanwhile, glassdoor reports the avg target wage at $10 for just about all in-store jobs.  I was going to say that I think they'll be okay, but that's actually not true - but that has everything to do with the decline or retail and next to nothing to do with bumping their customer service people a couple bucks.

[MU82]

And it was $37.50 in 2000 and only spent about 6 mos below the mid 30's all through the recession. Meanwhile, glassdoor reports the avg target wage at $10 for just about all in-store jobs.  I was going to say that I think they'll be okay, but that's actually not true - but that has everything to do with the decline or retail and next to nothing to do with bumping their customer service people a couple bucks.

Agree. Target has many problems that have nothing to do with minimum wage, bathroom policy or other political hot-button items.

They had a major credit breach and mismanaged the response to it. They tried to go into Canada and totally botched it, losing billions of dollars before leaving the country with their tail between their legs. They were late to the grocery party, late to the Internet party and late to doing most things that can help a retailer survive (let alone thrive) in this current environment.

Morningstar (a respected financial research center) says Wal-Mart has a "wide moat," meaning it has significant competitive economic advantages. Morningstar says Costco has a wide moat. They say Amazon has a wide moat. They say TJX (parent company to T.J. Maxx and Marshalls) has a "narrow" moat, meaning it has some competitive advantages but lacks some others.

Target? Morningstar lists the moat as "None." None!

And I agree with that, because there is absolutely no reason for any shopper to choose Target. What can you buy there that you can't buy elsewhere, usually less expensively? In the course of just a few years, Wal-Mart has refashioned itself to be America's No. 1 grocery chain. It also has made great strides with its presence in e-commerce. Target is woefully behind.

According to financial analyst finviz.com, Target has grown earnings by only 1.4% annually the last 5 years and is expected to see earnings shrink by 3.3% annually the next 5 years.

In other words, lots of problems.

Not that anybody's asking, but I view this minimum wage hike as a shot worth taking. As chick said, at the very least it could entice good Wal-Mart employees to leave and join their team. Maybe customer service will improve and that will help bring in more shoppers (or at least retain the shoppers they have).

The average Target employee still will be paid less than the average Costco employee, though.

Costco not only pays better but it offers good benefits. As a result, it has the happiest, most loyal employees. As a result, it faces far less turnover, which is always costly for companies. And because most Costco employees like their jobs, they work harder and they give better service to customers, who in turn like shopping there. Costco customers are so loyal they pay just for the right to shop there!

Remember those horrific Target earnings numbers? Well, Costco's earnings grew 10.1% annually the past 5 years and are expected to grow 10.5% annually the next 5 years.

Treating their employees well, starting with an excellent wage, has not hurt Costco.

[Pakuni]

Absolutely not. This was a business decision. No one is forcing them to raise their wages.

They are going to attract better employees than the Walmart across the street that pays less.

Oh, I agree.
I just think it helps illustrate the folly of those who argue in favor of low wages by claiming pay hikes will decimate businesses and lead to all low-wage workers being replaced by robots.

[warriorchick]

Oh, I agree.
I just think it helps illustrate the folly of those who argue in favor of low wages by claiming pay hikes will decimate businesses and lead to all low-wage workers being replaced by robots.

If you make a higher wage mandatory, and force companies to pay more to a person than the value it is receiving in return, it certainly will.

[Pakuni]

If you make a higher wage mandatory, and force companies to pay more to a person than the value it is receiving in return, it certainly will.

You're making an assumption that people are paid an amount equal to the value they provide.
And, I'll note, the people who make that argument when it comes to low-wage workers never seem to have a problem with executive compensation that exceeds the value those workers provide.

[mu03eng]

You're making an assumption that people are paid an amount equal to the value they provide.
And, I'll note, the people who make that argument when it comes to low-wage workers never seem to have a problem with executive compensation that exceeds the value those workers provide.

So let's just make this easy on everyone and reduce those accounting and HR departments....let's pay everyone the same wage!!!