Top 5 MU Players of All Time

[Galway Eagle]

McNeal based on Stats at MU has to be on the list.

Those that pick Butler, Matthews, Doc, DJO, etc. are doing so because of what did they after MU, not at MU.

I could see Matthews Doc and butler being picked for after MU but DJO? Dude got drafted at the end of the second round and played like 4 league games. What about that would influence someone to put him on this list?

[Windyplayer]

Why no Vander Blue love?  It is because he has not broken through to the NBA?

(Wades ... it seems that most of these choices listed so far are more a result of "recency bias" and "bandwagon effect" than one's actual performance at MU.)

I mean, really, how can they not be? If you're a '10 grad and you're saying Lee or Ellis, it's to primarily be "different" knowing damn well that you didn't watch these guys play in any kind of capacity, but are strictly going off what others say (and stats--which is more acceptable). Unless you see guys play on a consistent basis, have an idea of the impact they had on their team, and the culture of the program, it's really hard to rate them.

EDIT: Kinda why these debates are silly. In a way, we're all bias toward a stat or experience(s). Probably be a little more structured if we had 5 or 6 agreed-upon metrics to use in assessing the "Top 5" with a weight given to each...which would spawn another thread

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

I could see Matthews Doc and butler being picked for after MU but DJO? Dude got drafted at the end of the second round and played like 4 league games. What about that would influence someone to put him on this list?

Yup, DJO may be the most underrated player in MU history. Always seemed to play second fiddle to JFB and Jae but outscored them both. I'd also put Cadougan in the underrated category because he did a lot for the teams he played for. (certainly not a top 20 or even 50 player though)

[Tugg Speedman]

I mean, really, how can they not be? If you're a '10 grad and you're saying Lee or Ellis, it's to primarily be "different" knowing damn well that you didn't watch these guys play in any kind of capacity, but are strictly going off what others say (and stats--which is more acceptable). Unless you see guys play on a consistent basis, have an idea of the impact they had on their team, and the culture of the program, it's really hard to rate them.

EDIT: Kinda why these debates are silly. In a way, we're all bias toward a stat or experience(s). Probably be a little more structured if we had 5 or 6 agreed-upon metrics to use in assessing the "Top 5" with a weight given to each...which would spawn another thread

Correct!

Is the question what they did for MU or after in the Pros?  Becuase the question does not read the best MU player in the NBA.  It is best all-time for MU.  So, Matthews was nothing for three years and then had a decent senior year.  If the question is what they did at MU, he should get zero consideration or about the same as Juan Anderson.  He's on the list purely for what he did after he left MU (which was a lot!) or the bandwagon effect.

And regarding recency effect, we are we are 27 posts into this and only two posters have the right answer ... MU has one player who at MU was clearly head and shoulders above everyone else.

Willie and MU69 win with George Thompson at #1.  His meaning to the program and stats, no question he was the best ever, including Wade.

I understand that everyone believes the world began the day they were born and MU basketball did not exist until they became aware of it (nevermind the centennial, for most here MU basketball has, at most, 15 years of history).  So George Thompson getting number 1 billing sounds like an anthropology class discussion, as he played in the 1960s and you have to be 60+ years old to say you even saw him play.  Arguments against Thompson for Wade will really revolve around a recency bias.

[Jockey]

How anyone can leave George Thompson off that list is beyond me.

Edit: not you Willie as you clicked just before me.

Or Meminger.

There could be a very good argument that they are #1 and #2

[Jockey]

I like George a lot, but compared to Lucas and Ellis, George is not quite in the same league.

You obviously never saw him play.

[Herman Cain]

From the Pre and Early Al Era Pick One of :

Don Kojis - A force of Nature. I saw him at the event last fall and at 77 he still looks athletic. 
Terry Rand- Bill Russell said Rand was the best college center he played against, that is as good of an endorsement as you can get.
George Thompson -No comment necessary

Blue Blood Al Era:
Chones
Lee
Ellis

Post Al Era:
Wade

[dgies9156]

You obviously never saw him play.

Wanna bet?

[Silkk the Shaka]

Balgona dropped on 1/4/06. Fun read...

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/recap?gameId=260030269

"He hit fallaways, he hit a 38-footer, you name it," Calhoun said. "He was wonderful."

Novak... so hot right now... Novak....

[jsglow]

Saw them all play in person from George on so I obviously cant comment on Rand or Kojis.  And I must admit that I was very young with George.  My memory is better by the time of Chones and Dean as I was old enough to at least follow sports as a grade schooler.

Candidly, I think I have to agree with degies.  Thompson could absolutely fill it up and there's no doubt about his hallowed place in our history as he was the first NYC kid that made everything afterwards possible.  But the Top 5 is an incredibly select list.  I think it absolutely MUST include DWade, Ellis and Butch.  #4 and #5 get tougher.  Candidates include: Lucas, Chones, Meminger, Thompson, Tatum and of course Rand and Kojis for us to be truly fair.

Sorry for all you young guys but nobody on the 'modern' list approaches that.  What you guys need to appreciate was that for about an 8 year run, we were a Top 5 program nationally in the same breath with Indiana, North Carolina, Kentucky among a few others and just below UCLA, all in an era where college basketball wasn't watered down by early entry NBA.  Said another way, with the exception of Wade our 21st century ballplayers are 'nice'.  Our Al era ballplayers were superstars.  I can only imagine how bad Ellis, Lucas, or Chones would have kicked Henry's backside.  There just wasn't ESPN around to cover them 24/7.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

I was born after the Al era, so I can't comment knowledgeably about the top 5.  Wade is easily the best in my lifetime.  I'll defer the Al era to the old timers.

[4everwarriors]

Here's watt y'all been waitin' on:

#14
#22
#15
#31
#3

Knot dat hard, hey?

[Lennys Tap]

Here's watt y'all been waitin' on:

#14
#22
#15
#31
#3

Knot dat hard, hey?

Assuming #31 is Bo and not Doc Rivers, I have no argument with these picks, Doc, but how good is a team that has George, Mo, Earl, etc., coming off the bench?

[4everwarriors]

Lenny Man, Bo makes my cut. The younguns will never understand the plethora of basketball talent that called Marquette their home. We were so very fortunate to have witnessed and lived it each day, hey?

[4everwarriors]

BTW, a frontline of Chones, McNeill, and Luke woulda given many NBA teams a run, ai na?

[jsglow]

BTW, a frontline of Chones, McNeill, and Luke woulda given many NBA teams a run, ai na?

Agreed.

Unfortunately college basketball, while still very exciting, is a shadow of what it once was.  The great days ended with the Christian Laettner era.

[Nukem2]

BTW, a frontline of Chones, McNeill, and Luke woulda given many NBA teams a run, ai na?

loved those guys, but playing the 3 together would not have be en good.

[MU82]

Saw them all play in person from George on so I obviously cant comment on Rand or Kojis.  And I must admit that I was very young with George.  My memory is better by the time of Chones and Dean as I was old enough to at least follow sports as a grade schooler.

Candidly, I think I have to agree with degies.  Thompson could absolutely fill it up and there's no doubt about his hallowed place in our history as he was the first NYC kid that made everything afterwards possible.  But the Top 5 is an incredibly select list.  I think it absolutely MUST include DWade, Ellis and Butch.  #4 and #5 get tougher.  Candidates include: Lucas, Chones, Meminger, Thompson, Tatum and of course Rand and Kojis for us to be truly fair.

Sorry for all you young guys but nobody on the 'modern' list approaches that.  What you guys need to appreciate was that for about an 8 year run, we were a Top 5 program nationally in the same breath with Indiana, North Carolina, Kentucky among a few others and just below UCLA, all in an era where college basketball wasn't watered down by early entry NBA.  Said another way, with the exception of Wade our 21st century ballplayers are 'nice'.  Our Al era ballplayers were superstars.  I can only imagine how bad Ellis, Lucas, or Chones would have kicked Henry's backside.  There just wasn't ESPN around to cover them 24/7.

Superbly stated, glow.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Tip was MU's scoring leader for 40 years, despite only being able to play three seasons and with the lack of the three ball. Sorry, that holds the test of time, especially since he opened recruiting doors for Al.

Slim, with two F2s, and a net around his neck is a no brainer.

Butch with the NC trophy and MVP is next.

Next comes the early entries. Wade and Luke were a F4 and F2, respectively. Chones with only one loss, but then gone with an unfulfilled college legacy. Results matta, and that is why #22 is left off the BC rafters.

Don't blame him. Al pushed him. But, he didn't finish his college legacy.

[Herman Cain]

Lenny Man, Bo makes my cut. The younguns will never understand the plethora of basketball talent that called Marquette their home. We were so very fortunate to have witnessed and lived it each day, hey?

I don't understand you when you speak normally.

[Lennys Tap]

Lenny Man, Bo makes my cut. The younguns will never understand the plethora of basketball talent that called Marquette their home. We were so very fortunate to have witnessed and lived it each day, hey?

Amen

[GooooMarquette]

Saw them all play in person from George on so I obviously cant comment on Rand or Kojis.  And I must admit that I was very young with George.  My memory is better by the time of Chones and Dean as I was old enough to at least follow sports as a grade schooler.

Candidly, I think I have to agree with degies.  Thompson could absolutely fill it up and there's no doubt about his hallowed place in our history as he was the first NYC kid that made everything afterwards possible.  But the Top 5 is an incredibly select list.  I think it absolutely MUST include DWade, Ellis and Butch.  #4 and #5 get tougher.  Candidates include: Lucas, Chones, Meminger, Thompson, Tatum and of course Rand and Kojis for us to be truly fair.

Sorry for all you young guys but nobody on the 'modern' list approaches that.  What you guys need to appreciate was that for about an 8 year run, we were a Top 5 program nationally in the same breath with Indiana, North Carolina, Kentucky among a few others and just below UCLA, all in an era where college basketball wasn't watered down by early entry NBA.  Said another way, with the exception of Wade our 21st century ballplayers are 'nice'.  Our Al era ballplayers were superstars.  I can only imagine how bad Ellis, Lucas, or Chones would have kicked Henry's backside.  There just wasn't ESPN around to cover them 24/7.

Very well stated.  Really my only (minor) disagreement is with the mandatory top three.  I would start with Meminger, Lee and Wade...who also happen to have been MU's only consensus first team All-Americans.  My other two would be Chones and Ellis, but I can also see arguments for Luke, Thompson, Tatum, Kojis and Rand. 

Plenty of good players more recently, but none since Wade rise to that level....

[rocket surgeon]

Saw them all play in person from George on so I obviously cant comment on Rand or Kojis.  And I must admit that I was very young with George.  My memory is better by the time of Chones and Dean as I was old enough to at least follow sports as a grade schooler.

Candidly, I think I have to agree with degies.  Thompson could absolutely fill it up and there's no doubt about his hallowed place in our history as he was the first NYC kid that made everything afterwards possible.  But the Top 5 is an incredibly select list.  I think it absolutely MUST include DWade, Ellis and Butch.  #4 and #5 get tougher.  Candidates include: Lucas, Chones, Meminger, Thompson, Tatum and of course Rand and Kojis for us to be truly fair.

Sorry for all you young guys but nobody on the 'modern' list approaches that.  What you guys need to appreciate was that for about an 8 year run, we were a Top 5 program nationally in the same breath with Indiana, North Carolina, Kentucky among a few others and just below UCLA, all in an era where college basketball wasn't watered down by early entry NBA.  Said another way, with the exception of Wade our 21st century ballplayers are 'nice'.  Our Al era ballplayers were superstars.  I can only imagine how bad Ellis, Lucas, or Chones would have kicked Henry's backside.  There just wasn't ESPN around to cover them 24/7.

      this was all very well stated-back in the late 60'-70's, we really were spoiled and that set the basis for many of us on where we'd LIKE to be with MU hoops.  that is our bar. in order to p!ss with the big dogs-ya gotta lift that leg really high!

     the players who made up that era were some of the very best in the college ball players in the country.  wha wha what? college ball?  yes, because a few of these guys, dean the dream, bo and butch(2 time ncaa player of the year) were spectacular college ball players, but went on to have less than stellar pro careers.  their pro careers do not define the impact they had on our program however.  but these 3 have got to be mentioned in the same sentence as top 5 or 6 top MU players in history.  when we get back to having a run as glow mentioned, then this list can change...maybe

 then ya have to have jimmy chones, maurice lucas, george thompson as well.  not taking anything away from these guys as they were spectacular college players who went on to have nice pro careers

2nd team-wade, doc, larry mcneil, rand and kojis

honorable mention-allie mcguire,  jimmy boylan, davante(automatic), novak, crowder, djo, jerel mcsteal,  hayward, vander

[willie warrior]

BTW, a frontline of Chones, McNeill, and Luke woulda given many NBA teams a run, ai na?

Awesome frontline. How did I forget Lucas in my top 5? Even making a top 10 would be difficult.
Where would you put guys like Rand, Earl Tatum, Bob Lackey, Sam Worthen, Lloyd Walton, Mandy Johnson, Aaron Hutchens, etc. etc.? Apologies to other greats I forgot about.

[jsglow]

2nd team-wade, doc, larry mcneil, rand and kojis

DWade is not second team.  No recency bias on that one.  In terms of pure talent, he's right there at the tippy top of any list.