Purdue @ Marquette November 14

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Yah, if you lose them all. Win 2 and you're in fantastic shape, even with 3 non con losses. It's a great schedule. Even if you get beat up a bit, losing to top 25 teams doesn't really hurt you.

Not necessarily. It depends on the rest of the buy games. Imagine this.  We get beat down by potential #1 Purdue. Then we get beat down again by potential top 10 Wichita State in the first round of Maui. Then get chaminade in the second round.  Then we play LSU or Cal who will both be RPI stinkers by high major standards.  Then we lose at Wisconsin and beat Georgia at home.  Suddenly your most impressive wins are NIT or worse Georgia at home and sub 100 LSU or  Cal. Combine that with weak buy games and all of the sudden you have an abysmal non conference even though it was actually very difficult.

[79Warrior]

Froling has some skills but is not going to be an impact player in the first year . Matt Heldt has proven he can absorb and dish out the physicality in our league and will get Lions share of minutes. Froling will need to prove he can play Big East defense and is not soft. That will take time.

I would be very surprised if Matt gets the minutes you think once Froling is available to play. .

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Not necessarily. It depends on the rest of the buy games. Imagine this.  We get beat down by potential #1 Purdue. Then we get beat down again by potential top 10 Wichita State in the first round of Maui. Then get chaminade in the second round.  Then we play LSU or Cal who will both be RPI stinkers by high major standards.  Then we lose at Wisconsin and beat Georgia at home.  Suddenly your most impressive wins are NIT or worse Georgia at home and sub 100 LSU or  Cal. Combine that with weak buy games and all of the sudden you have an abysmal non conference even though it was actually very difficult.

Sure. But that is pretty much worst case scenario. Beat UGA and one of Purdue, Wisconsin and you're in pretty great shape regardless of what happened in Maui. Beat WSU, ND or Michigan in Maui in addition and were in fantastic shape to make the dance at 9-9 in BE play.

[Lennys Tap]

From a fan perspective its a fantastic schedule. But maybe not from a team perspective. We have the look of a bubble or NIT team going into this season.

I'm not worried about the schedule. I am worried that in year 4 of the Wojo regime "we have the look of a bubble or NIT team going into the season".

[muguru]

I'm not worried about the schedule. I am worried that in year 4 of the Wojo regime "we have the look of a bubble or NIT team going into the season".

+1000...Too young(this is why I called for a grad transfer so badly), and having to rely on Freshman is a recipe for disaster. Many are very high on this Freshman class...and hopefully they turn out alright, but I just don't see it with this class..not like I did with the previous years class of Sam, Markus etc. Not one highly ranked guy(rankings aren't always everything). As I said, in order for MU to get back to "elite" status, you HAVE to have mainly all your key pieces be top 100 guys(with a couple top 50's+), and never have a guy on your bench that's lower than 150ish. Then, and only then, will MU start to get back to the top in college BB. To me, this incoming Freshman class is a bunch of "need" guys. Got the potatoes, but don't see a lot of "meat" with this class.

[wadesworld]

How many teams in the Big East, let alone the country, are going to have a better starting backcourt than Marquette?  It's a guard's game.  Not many teams can top Rowsey and Howard plus Hauser if he's playing the 3.  Not to mention Cheatham can contribute and Cain and Elliot have some big time potential.  If a couple of our bigs can defend the post and rebound we're closer to a top 20 team than a bubble team.  If they can't then we are a bubble team for the 2nd straight year.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm not worried about the schedule. I am worried that in year 4 of the Wojo regime "we have the look of a bubble or NIT team going into the season".

That's fine if you feel that way. Anytime you graduate three players like Luke, Reinhardt, and JJJ you are going to have trouble building on your past year. Even if we don't end up in the tournament this year the rebuild is still on schedule. Tournament by year three. High seed and foundation for future success by year 5.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

+1000...Too young(this is why I called for a grad transfer so badly), and having to rely on Freshman is a recipe for disaster. Many are very high on this Freshman class...and hopefully they turn out alright, but I just don't see it with this class..not like I did with the previous years class of Sam, Markus etc. Not one highly ranked guy(rankings aren't always everything). As I said, in order for MU to get back to "elite" status, you HAVE to have mainly all your key pieces be top 100 guys(with a couple top 50's+), and never have a guy on your bench that's lower than 150ish. Then, and only then, will MU start to get back to the top in college BB. To me, this incoming Freshman class is a bunch of "need" guys. Got the potatoes, but don't see a lot of "meat" with this class.

First, I would try to get over your hangup on rankings. Yes, they are an easy snapshot of what to expect from a player in their first year. But they are not the end all be all of that player's potential. Some of our best players: Dwyane Wade, Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder, DJO, Davante Gardner were ranked outside of the top 100 coming out of high school.

Second, the great thing about this class is that I don't expect to "have to rely on" any of the freshmen. I am projecting the top of the rotation to be Markus, Rowsey, Hauser, Froling, Heldt, Cheatham, and Anim. If Cain, John, Elliott, or Eke are good enough to be "relied on" then I fully expect us to be in the tournament comfortably. It's okay to have players who aren't ready to make an immediate impact. Unless you are consistently bringing in top 25 players, the best way to be "elite" is to get old and stay old.

[GGGG]

I'm not worried about the schedule. I am worried that in year 4 of the Wojo regime "we have the look of a bubble or NIT team going into the season".

Progress isn't always linear.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

How many teams in the Big East, let alone the country, are going to have a better starting backcourt than Marquette?  It's a guard's game.  Not many teams can top Rowsey and Howard plus Hauser if he's playing the 3.  Not to mention Cheatham can contribute and Cain and Elliot have some big time potential.  If a couple of our bigs can defend the post and rebound we're closer to a top 20 team than a bubble team.  If they can't then we are a bubble team for the 2nd straight year.

In the Big East?

Villanova: Jalen Brunson, Phil Booth, and Donte DiVincenzo
Xavier: Quentin Goodin, Paul Scuggs, JP Macura, Trevon Blueitt
Providence: Kyron Cartwright, Makai Ashton-Langford, Jalen Lindsey
Seton Hall: Myles Powell, Khadeen Carrington, and Desi Rodriguez
Creighton: Davion Mintz, Khyri Thomas, and Marcus Foster
St. John's: Marcus LoVett Jr, Shamorie Ponds, and Justin Simon

Not all of those are definitively better than Howard, Rowsey, and Cheatham but there isn't a lot of distance between them. This will be another year of Villanova on top, Georgetown/Depaul on the bottom, and a giant clusterfack in between.

[fjm]

I'll tell you one thing I like...

Assuming no transfers (although I wouldn't be surprised as always), this team will only lose one to graduation. That's huge. If we make the tourney again, 3/4's of our team are underclassmen.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'll tell you one thing I like...

Assuming no transfers (although I wouldn't be surprised as always), this team will only lose one to graduation. That's huge. If we make the tourney again, 3/4's of our team are underclassmen.

Yep. With a big transfer, a (legitimate) 20 year old 4 star freshmen, and potentially 1 or 2 other top HS recruits. That's why the rebuild is still on schedule. With as big as the Class of 2013 was, this season was always going to be a "reload" type season. 18-19 is the season where we truly get to flex our muscles.

[Herman Cain]

+1000...Too young(this is why I called for a grad transfer so badly), and having to rely on Freshman is a recipe for disaster. Many are very high on this Freshman class...and hopefully they turn out alright, but I just don't see it with this class..not like I did with the previous years class of Sam, Markus etc. Not one highly ranked guy(rankings aren't always everything). As I said, in order for MU to get back to "elite" status, you HAVE to have mainly all your key pieces be top 100 guys(with a couple top 50's+), and never have a guy on your bench that's lower than 150ish. Then, and only then, will MU start to get back to the top in college BB. To me, this incoming Freshman class is a bunch of "need" guys. Got the potatoes, but don't see a lot of "meat" with this class.

The most meaningful  indicator of recruit potential is what conference level the recruits are and the trend of their play. Our incoming recruits had offers from Big Ten, Big East, SEC, ACC , PAC 12 and Big 12.  The playing trend was also upward for all of them.  We recruited highly athletic players with the size , skills and heart to compete in our league and beyond. My sense is a couple years from now there will be stories about how certain players were a steal for MU. The beauty is all of these freshman plus our transfer will have the time to properly develop as our returners are all very solid .

[wadesworld]

The most meaningful  indicator of recruit potential is what conference level the recruits are and the trend of their play. Our incoming recruits had offers from Big Ten, Big East, SEC, ACC , PAC 12 and Big 12.  The playing trend was also upward for all of them.  We recruited highly athletic players with the size , skills and heart to compete in our league and beyond. My sense is a couple years from now there will be stories about how certain players were a steal for MU. The beauty is all of these freshman plus our transfer will have the time to properly develop as our returners are all very solid .

With a very, very few rare exceptions, just about every single player that commits to a high major program has offers from multiple high major conferences. If that's the way to differentiate recruits, then just about every single high major recruit out there is very similar in ability. I'm not sure how you would define "playing trend."

[MU82]

No Wojo vs Collins.

Also, no neighboring state battles (MU-Ill, MU-Minn). I guess the Gavitt schedulers are boring.

[onepost]

Froling has some skills but is not going to be an impact player in the first year . Matt Heldt has proven he can absorb and dish out the physicality in our league and will get Lions share of minutes.

I'm shocked more people haven't called you out on this take, which I believe is hysterically incorrect.

[Loose Cannon]

I'm shocked more people haven't called you out on this take, which I believe is hysterically incorrect.

Some have Surrendered!

[tower912]

Haven't paid attention to him in ages.  Glad he's found something new to be 180 degrees wrong about.

[Herman Cain]

I'm shocked more people haven't called you out on this take, which I believe is hysterically incorrect.

Why is it hysterically incorrect?He proved absolutely nothing at SMU. He was self admittedly not up to the athleticism that was required on that team and quit at the first sign of being challenged in his life. Go to the SMU message and they felt addition by subtraction. I also took the time to check him out in our practices and didn't see anything that led me to believe he was light years above Matt Heldt. If anybody is being hysterical it is you.

All I am saying is lets give Froling a year in the Big East before we start setting unrealistic expectations. Matt is our starting center and he is going to do a great job for the team this year. Froling will be his backup and will hopefully understand our league by the second time he goes around it.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Why is it hysterically incorrect?He proved absolutely nothing at SMU. He was self admittedly not up to the athleticism that was required on that team and quit at the first sign of being challenged in his life. Go to the SMU message and they felt addition by subtraction. I also took the time to check him out in our practices and didn't see anything that led me to believe he was light years above Matt Heldt. If anybody is being hysterical it is you.

All I am saying is lets give Froling a year in the Big East before we start setting unrealistic expectations. Matt is our starting center and he is going to do a great job for the team this year. Froling will be his backup and will hopefully understand our league by the second time he goes around it.

I'm gonna call you out on your BS and say you've never even seen Froling practice once, let alone multiple times.

Also, if you did go to said practices, then you'd know he's in much better shape then he was at SMU or at any other point in his life.

[Newsdreams]

I'm gonna call you out on your BS and say you've never even seen Froling practice once, let alone multiple times.

Also, if you did go to said practices, then you'd know he's in much better shape then he was at SMU or at any other point in his life.

MYFINY = Heldt!

[bilsu]

Why is it hysterically incorrect?He proved absolutely nothing at SMU. He was self admittedly not up to the athleticism that was required on that team and quit at the first sign of being challenged in his life. Go to the SMU message and they felt addition by subtraction. I also took the time to check him out in our practices and didn't see anything that led me to believe he was light years above Matt Heldt. If anybody is being hysterical it is you.

All I am saying is lets give Froling a year in the Big East before we start setting unrealistic expectations. Matt is our starting center and he is going to do a great job for the team this year. Froling will be his backup and will hopefully understand our league by the second time he goes around it.

I am still suffering from the image of Heldt getting two passes in perfect position against South Carolina and not even getting a shot off. I will repeat what I said before, if Froling is not better than Heldt than we will not be a very good team.

[onepost]

Why is it hysterically incorrect?He proved absolutely nothing at SMU. He was self admittedly not up to the athleticism that was required on that team and quit at the first sign of being challenged in his life. Go to the SMU message and they felt addition by subtraction. I also took the time to check him out in our practices and didn't see anything that led me to believe he was light years above Matt Heldt. If anybody is being hysterical it is you.

All I am saying is lets give Froling a year in the Big East before we start setting unrealistic expectations. Matt is our starting center and he is going to do a great job for the team this year. Froling will be his backup and will hopefully understand our league by the second time he goes around it.

Given your track record on this board I highly doubt you've ever seen Harry Froling practice.  I'm optimistic because a (self-admittedly) overweight, freshman Froling averaged 15 minutes a game on a team that went on to become a 6 seed in the NCAA Tourney.  And when he committed I immediately went to SMU boards to gauge their reactions and wouldn't you know it, most were very disappointed he was leaving.  I saw little to no "addition by subtraction" you're referring to.

The day he committed he mentioned his need to get in great shape and he's lost 40 pounds since stepping on campus ... sure sounds like a guy with no drive to me.  I'm also optimistic because unlike you, I know someone who watched him practice every day for nearly 3 months and told me he was head and shoulders better than Heldt.  A big man who can take centers off the dribble and stretch the floor is awfully promising and with him getting into top-notch shape the sky is the limit.  JayBee and others familiar with ValueAdd would know better than me, but I contend he could become our third "most valuable" player next year behind Markus and Sam.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Froling is literally skinny now. I follow him on Snapchat and he posted some pictures the other at the pool. Dude has abs. Lost AT LEAST 50 pounds.

As JayBee loves to say (no homo).

[Benny B]

Not necessarily. It depends on the rest of the buy games. Imagine this.  We get beat down by potential #1 Purdue. Then we get beat down again by potential top 10 Wichita State in the first round of Maui. Then get chaminade in the second round.  Then we play LSU or Cal who will both be RPI stinkers by high major standards.  Then we lose at Wisconsin and beat Georgia at home.  Suddenly your most impressive wins are NIT or worse Georgia at home and sub 100 LSU or  Cal. Combine that with weak buy games and all of the sudden you have an abysmal non conference even though it was actually very difficult.

MU won't likely get WSU in the first round, let alone see Chaminade.  Looking at the past six tournaments, when there have been two mid-majors in the field, they match up in the first round in either the first or last game (depending if there's a west coast team)... so WSU will likely get VCU in the first game.  SEC always has had one of the first two games, and they usually try to put either a marquee matchup and/or a west coast team in the last game.  So figure LSU in game 2 and Cal in Game 4.  Chaminade has mostly played in game 3 and entirely against B12 or ACC teams; since there is no B12 team in the field, ND will probably get Chaminade in game 3.  That leaves Michigan and Marquette.  The last time a BE team was in game 4 was 2011 and that was GTown/KU.  MU/Cal isn't exactly a marquee matchup, so they'll probably put Michigan with Cal and Marquette with LSU.

So Maui should look something like this:

WSU/VCU
LSU/MU
ND/Cham
Cal/UM