Unhappiness Building Over Sean Miller In The Arizona Desert

[Tugg Speedman]

Outsiders critical of Sean Miller after Arizona Wildcats' Sweet 16 exit

http://tucson.com/sports/arizonawildcats/basketball/outsiders-critical-of-sean-miller-after-arizona-wildcats-sweet-exit/article_c9ed8a39-4569-57f5-9cce-635658c488b3.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=email&utm_campaign=user-share

[tower912]

As I said in the thread where X fans were complaining about Mack after MU swept them.... fans are dumb.   Specific to this case, how many better coaches are out there?

[wadesworld]

Maybe he can come be our defensive assistant coach hey?

[Jockey]

As I said in the thread where X fans were complaining about Mack after MU swept them.... fans are dumb.   Specific to this case, how many better coaches are out there?

Bingo!!

Arizona wasn't upset. They were beaten by a better team.

[MU B2002]

Just like people are mad at Bill Self.


Sean Miller and Bill Self can coach my team any time they want.

[GGGG]

Arizona fans were getting on Lute Olson a generation ago too.  Fans are stupid.

[Jockey]

Just like people are mad at Bill Self.


Sean Miller and Bill Self can coach my team any time they want.

Miller and Self are not great coaches - they are great recruiters.

Their teams are never, ever greater than the sum of their parts. Similar to Digger at ND when he was never quite good enough despite a roster full of future NBA players

As much as we all hate Bo Ryan (as just one example), his teams were almost always better than the sum of the parts.

[GGGG]

Bill Self is 54 years old.  He has won a national championship, was runner up another time and has won 13 straight conference championships with Kansas.  In three years at Illinois, he won two conference championships and got to the Elite 8 once.  He got to the Elite 8 with Tulsa.

I'm sorry but it really hard for me to label Bill Self as anything but a great coach. 

[GB Warrior]

Bingo!!

Arizona wasn't upset. They were beaten by a better team.

I don't think that's true. X was a good team that had to learn how to adapt sans Sumner. It did that at the right time. But I don't think anyone thought X was the better team. Zona had a field day on the glass but shot historically poor (Yes, X contributed to that). But the best thing about single elimination is that sometimes, the best team doesn't win and that's it.

[Galway Eagle]

Miller and Self are not great coaches - they are great recruiters.

Their teams are never, ever greater than the sum of their parts. Similar to Digger at ND when he was never quite good enough despite a roster full of future NBA players

As much as we all hate Bo Ryan (as just one example), his teams were almost always better than the sum of the parts.

I think this is true now but Self and Miller both proved to be more than competent at other programs prior to getting to that level. I do agree that they seem to struggle to make their team "greater than the sum of their parts"

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Fans are stupid.

This is the main lesson of the article.

[HouWarrior]

Miller and Self are not great coaches - they are great recruiters.

Their teams are never, ever greater than the sum of their parts. Similar to Digger at ND when he was never quite good enough despite a roster full of future NBA players

As much as we all hate Bo Ryan (as just one example), his teams were almost always better than the sum of the parts.

Bill Self is elected to BB HOF

...not for being a great coach ....but rather he was elected in a new created category ...."Merely a Great Recruiter" lol

[Herman Cain]

Bill Self is elected to BB HOF

...not for being a great coach ....but rather he was elected in a new created category ...."Merely a Great Recruiter" lol

He only gets the easy recruits

[Jockey]

Bill Self is elected to BB HOF

...not for being a great coach ....but rather he was elected in a new created category ...."Merely a Great Recruiter" lol

Coaches with the best players should win the most. Self is a good coach (not great) who had better players for almost every game.

Again I will use Bo Ryan as an example since we all hate on the guy.

As Division 1 coaches, Self won 76% of the time; Ryan won 73%.

As far as their players go? There is no comparison. Not even close. Who was a better teaching and game coach? The answer is easy.

Ryan was a much better coach. Self is a much better recruiter.

[GGGG]

Coaches with the best players should win the most. Self is a good coach (not great) who had better players for almost every game.

Again I will use Bo Ryan as an example since we all hate on the guy.

As Division 1 coaches, Self won 76% of the time; Ryan won 73%.

As far as their players go? There is no comparison. Not even close. Who was a better teaching and game coach? The answer is easy.

Ryan was a much better coach. Self is a much better recruiter.

Bill Self and Bo Ryan are/were both employed as "coaches."

Bill Self is more successful at his job than Bo Ryan was.  Therefore he is a better coach.

IOW, recruiting is an integral part of the college game and can't really separated out of the job description.

[wadesworld]

Bill Self and Bo Ryan are/were both employed as "coaches."

Bill Self is more successful at his job than Bo Ryan was.  Therefore he is a better coach.

IOW, recruiting is an integral part of the college game and can't really separated out of the job description.

Exactly. Getting the best players is 90% of the job.

From most to least important aspects needed for a college athletics coach I would rank them:

1) Recruiting talent.
2) Managing the egos of the players on the roster and getting the team to gel together.
3) Systems and playing style.
4) Coaching kids up.

[Jockey]

Bill Self and Bo Ryan are/were both employed as "coaches."

Bill Self is more successful at his job than Bo Ryan was.  Therefore he is a better coach.

IOW, recruiting is an integral part of the college game and can't really separated out of the job description.

You are right. I think our disagreement is macro vs. micro.

I was specifically talking about the actual coaching aspect of the game - working with the players on your team. And based on the records, I don't know if very many would dispute that if two teams had the same caliber of players, Ryan would beat Self the majority of the time. And it probably wouldn't be real close.

[Jockey]

Exactly. Getting the best players is 90% of the job.

From most to least important aspects needed for a college athletics coach I would rank them:

1) Recruiting talent.
2) Managing the egos of the players on the roster and getting the team to gel together.
3) Systems and playing style.
4) Coaching kids up.

Like, Sultan, you are right as well - on a macro level. But for individual games, #3 and #4 are more important. That's why you see upsets in the Tournament.  Frank Martin can coach circles around Bill Self. Self can recruit circles around Martin so he wins more cuz he always has the better players. With much, much more talent, Kansas exited the Tournament. SC went to the Final Four.

John Wooden wasn't a great coach because he won championships with Jabbar and Walton - probably the two greatest college centers ever. He was a great coach for his other teams - such as winning a national championship with that averaged 6'3" and played no one over 6'5".

[GGGG]

Like, Sultan, you are right as well - on a macro level. But for individual games, #3 and #4 are more important. That's why you see upsets in the Tournament.  Frank Martin can coach circles around Bill Self. Self can recruit circles around Martin so he wins more cuz he always has the better players. With much, much more talent, Kansas exited the Tournament. SC went to the Final Four.

John Wooden wasn't a great coach because he won championships with Jabbar and Walton - probably the two greatest college centers ever. He was a great coach for his other teams - such as winning a national championship with that averaged 6'3" and played no one over 6'5".

Number of NCAA titles won by Wooden:  10
Number of titles won without a future Naismith Hall of Famer: 3  (71,72,75)
Number of titles won without a future NBA All-Star: 0

His 1971 team had six future NBA players.  His 1972 team had three.  His 1975 team had four.  And many of these weren't cup of coffee guys but had multiple years in the league.

Wooden was surrounded by great talent.

[brewcity77]

I don't know if very many would dispute that if two teams had the same caliber of players, Ryan would beat Self the majority of the time. And it probably wouldn't be real close.

I have to say, I think this is the most constant and myopic criticism of Ryan. People act like he only recruited scrubs. One thing Bo really excelled at was recruiting guys that fit his system. Bo isn't one of those "I'll take mine and beat yours, then take yours and beat mine" types of coaches.

He excelled at taking guys that bought into his system and executed that system very, very well. That's why guys like Alando Tucker and Jordan Taylor were All-Americans despite not being NBA caliber players. They were still outstanding collegiate talents.

However, he wasn't adaptable. He couldn't break out a zone when his defense was beat. If his team was down big, they couldn't shift tempo and make a big comeback.

Was he a good coach? Sure. But was he a better coach than Self, Calipari, K, or others because he did it with fewer stars on the recruiting rankings? Not at all. Bo was a great recruiter, but part of that recruiting excellence was identifying guys that would be patient, learn the system, and execute within it.

[Jockey]

I have to say, I think this is the most constant and myopic criticism of Ryan. People act like he only recruited scrubs. One thing Bo really excelled at was recruiting guys that fit his system. Bo isn't one of those "I'll take mine and beat yours, then take yours and beat mine" types of coaches.

He excelled at taking guys that bought into his system and executed that system very, very well. That's why guys like Alando Tucker and Jordan Taylor were All-Americans despite not being NBA caliber players. They were still outstanding collegiate talents.

However, he wasn't adaptable. He couldn't break out a zone when his defense was beat. If his team was down big, they couldn't shift tempo and make a big comeback.

Was he a good coach? Sure. But was he a better coach than Self, Calipari, K, or others because he did it with fewer stars on the recruiting rankings? Not at all. Bo was a great recruiter, but part of that recruiting excellence was identifying guys that would be patient, learn the system, and execute within it.

I love these arguments, Brew.

I think there are points we agree on and points we disagree on. That's what makes it fun.

And I didn't mean to imply that Bo didn't recruit good players. When you are getting a lot of 3 & 4 star guys, you are gonna win a lot. But obviously, he didn't get all of the 5 stars that Duke, NC, Kentucky, Kansas, etc. get. (We should know as well as anyone the risks inherent in 3 and 4 star guys.)

Bo got to 2 Final Fours without a single guy who will ever grace an NBA All-Star team. I don't know if anyone else has done this - certainly not in the last 30-40 years. I thought maybe Brad Stevens, but I think Hayward was an All-star this year.

I should have been clearer in my original post that I was talking X's and O's coaching rather than including recruiting. I understand your point about how important recruiting is and how hard it is to separate the two.

Finally, I apologize for using Bo as an example - it was just too easy.

[JWags85]

I love these arguments, Brew.

I think there are points we agree on and points we disagree on. That's what makes it fun.

And I didn't mean to imply that Bo didn't recruit good players. When you are getting a lot of 3 & 4 star guys, you are gonna win a lot. But obviously, he didn't get all of the 5 stars that Duke, NC, Kentucky, Kansas, etc. get. (We should know as well as anyone the risks inherent in 3 and 4 star guys.)

Bo got to 2 Final Fours without a single guy who will ever grace an NBA All-Star team. I don't know if anyone else has done this - certainly not in the last 30-40 years. I thought maybe Brad Stevens, but I think Hayward was an All-star this year.

Those teams had 2 guys drafted in the top 20 picks of the 2015 draft.  College success has never directly portended NBA success especially with all of the young one and done talent.  To pretend he was dragging along an underdog squad of untalented players is silly. 

[wadesworld]

I love these arguments, Brew.

I think there are points we agree on and points we disagree on. That's what makes it fun.

And I didn't mean to imply that Bo didn't recruit good players. When you are getting a lot of 3 & 4 star guys, you are gonna win a lot. But obviously, he didn't get all of the 5 stars that Duke, NC, Kentucky, Kansas, etc. get. (We should know as well as anyone the risks inherent in 3 and 4 star guys.)

Bo got to 2 Final Fours without a single guy who will ever grace an NBA All-Star team. I don't know if anyone else has done this - certainly not in the last 30-40 years. I thought maybe Brad Stevens, but I think Hayward was an All-star this year.

I should have been clearer in my original post that I was talking X's and O's coaching rather than including recruiting. I understand your point about how important recruiting is and how hard it is to separate the two.

Finally, I apologize for using Bo as an example - it was just too easy.

Who on UNC's teams the past 2 years will be NBA All Stars?  Is there even one?  If there is, chances are it's Tony Bradley, who plays about 15 minutes per game for them.  Hicks I guess could have a chance but I don't see it.  Maaaaybe Justin Jackson?  Meeks, Berry, Johnson, Paige I don't see.

And that's just the past 2 years.  My guess is it happens more than you think.  How many NBA All Stars come out of MSU?  Draymond is the only one I can think of.

[rocket surgeon]

Number of NCAA titles won by Wooden:  10
Number of titles won without a future Naismith Hall of Famer: 3  (71,72,75)
Number of titles won without a future NBA All-Star: 0

His 1971 team had six future NBA players.  His 1972 team had three.  His 1975 team had four.  And many of these weren't cup of coffee guys but had multiple years in the league.

Wooden was surrounded by great talent.

good stuff, but if i missed it somewhere up there, i apologize-coaching naismith, future NBA and future NBA guys who play 3-4 years for ya can't hurt either.  not taking away from your point as it's all kinda relative.  wooden's numbers are incredible, but...regardless, he's one of the greatest of all times

[brewcity77]

Those teams had 2 guys drafted in the top 20 picks of the 2015 draft.  College success has never directly portended NBA success especially with all of the young one and done talent.  To pretend he was dragging along an underdog squad of untalented players is silly.

Exactly right. Who was a better college player, Adam Morrison or Jimmy Butler? The answer is obviously Morrison. The better pro? Butler and it's not close. Plenty of great college players are mediocre pros, and some mediocre college players are better at the next level (paging Greg Stiemsma).