Does Heldt start the rest of the way?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

According to Pomeroy Luke gets a higher % of available rebounds on both offense and defense then Matt.

Luke beats Matt in every statistical category. But that won't stop backup QB syndrome!

[wadesworld]

Luke is clearly the better player and we need him on the court most games, but there is nothing wrong with Matt seeing a few more minutes per game.  If the other players on the court are scoring the ball and Matt is doing a good job defensively and rebounding, we can be just fine.  I see nothing wrong with letting a lineup roll when they're on a 19-0 run like Wojo did for the first 5 minutes of the game Saturday, and if Matt happens to be in instead of Luke during that run, so be it.

And I don't even see a problem with Heldt starting in place of Luke.  Luke can come in with some guys who maybe aren't as big of threats to score and be an offensive presence and it can possibly help save him some fouls.  And if he fouls out in 12 minutes then Heldt needs to play a lot.  Obviously we need him on the court for more than 12 minutes, but if it's between starting while going 2 games without getting a defensive rebound or playing aggressive off the bench (I don't think I've ever seen him deflect a pass and then save it falling out of bounds before Saturday) I'll take the latter.

Luke has talent.  Matt plays hard.  Both bring something different to the court.

[MomofMUltiples]

My opinion is that Wojo switched up the lineup to give a message to some of his players that starting positions are earned through effort, not seniority.  I don't think it is a permanent change, nor should it be.  We will see Luke in the starting lineup tomorrow night.

I think Duane may continue starting, though.

[brewcity77]

The question of this thread is what frustrates me about the hopes of MU ball. IMO, there is not one person that knows a lick about ball that could even think Matt over Luke and hope for NCAA success. If these are the questions we are going debate, maybe MU leaving the Big East thread is not as idiotic as I originally thought.

I'm happy to see Matt having some success, and those moments encourage me about the future, but this is dead on. Luke is just a better player right now. He had a bad night Saturday while Matt played well, but I've no doubt that's the exception, not the rule

[MU82]

I'm old enough to remember Erik Williams starting games over Jae Crowder. So no, it's not some wild or idiotic premise.

If the coach thinks it's a way to get the best out of his two big guys, then I'm fine with trying it. Luke's performance Saturday didn't inspire a ton of confidence, though.

As I said earlier, who starts is immaterial. If Wojo is a good communicator, he can get Luke to buy into coming off the bench (if that indeed is what Wojo intends to do). Luke can still get far more minutes, although I would expect Heldt to get more than the 2 minutes Erik Williams usually got!

As for Luke's skills ... he's a far better offensive player - not even close - and also a superior shot-blocker. Heldt appears to be a slightly better rebounder (although some stats would say otherwise), better at drawing charges and a somewhat more rugged kid. All IMHO, of course - except the offense part, which is factually supported by just about every possible metric.

[Goose]

MUfan12

I equate starting with playing minutes. If he wants to start Matt and play him two minutes I could not care less. Matt is a backup and should get backup minutes and whenever they fall in the first 30 minutes of the game is fine by me.

[vogue65]

I'd rather start Luke simply because I think he's better at winning the tip. That can conceivably make a two-possession difference in a game if you win the tip, get the last shot in the first half, have the possession arrow to start the second, and have the last possession in the second half. In a close game, two more offensive possessions than your opponent is big, especially when you factor in our offensive efficiency.

Good point, in the overall scheme of things it's important. 

This decision does not depend on stats as much as chemistry.   Heldt seems to bring a lot of attitude, desire, motivation with him and that is infectious for the rest of the team.  It also seems to me that the guys really like playing with him and that is very important.  Not that they don't like Luke, but they seem to really dig Heldt.  There is plenty of time to go around and playing with purpose is important and if necessary, after they both foul out, we go to small ball and all is not lost.

Big's are highly overrated anyway.

[BrewCity83]

This debate is largely irrelevant--it's a guard's game.

[tower912]

Love the whiplash in regards to heldt.  He has gone from being the worst scholarship player in the Big East, to people wanting him to start, to D 2 and questioning the insanity of whoever says he is developing, to whether or not he starts the rest if the year.

Matt is doing fine.  Luke is better.

[jsglow]

Some math for you metrics guys.  Eng said on the Pod (or was it just Eng agreeing with Joe 100%) that X scored 0.91 ppp.  I'd be very interested in the breakdown of that statistic when Matty was on the floor vs. Luke.  And let me state this upfront.  Duane had a lot to do with the overall improvement on D.  But that breakdown might be instructive.

Again, Luke is better.  But the question properly is whether Matt is better at some things (perhaps rim protection, rebounding) and does that need to be given greater emphasis going forward.  Remember, we gave up 0.91 ppp Saturday.

[amen426]

Some math for you metrics guys.  Eng said on the Pod (or was it just Eng agreeing with Joe 100%) that X scored 0.91 ppp.  I'd be very interested in the breakdown of that statistic when Matty was on the floor vs. Luke.  And let me state this upfront.  Duane had a lot to do with the overall improvement on D.  But that breakdown might be instructive.

Again, Luke is better.  But the question properly is whether Matt is better at some things (perhaps rim protection, rebounding) and does that need to be given greater emphasis going forward.  Remember, we gave up 0.91 ppp Saturday.

Our help-side defense/rotation was great against Xavier. Some of that was having Duane out there. A lot of that was playing against a Xavier team that shot 2-17 from 3. Our guys were allowed to sag into the lane and really make it difficult to get easy looks in the paint - because they had no threat from outside.

I'm happy with the way our defense performed, but it will be much more difficult to perform at that level vs. St Johns.

[jsglow]

Our help-side defense/rotation was great against Xavier. Some of that was having Duane out there. A lot of that was playing against a Xavier team that shot 2-17 from 3. Our guys were allowed to sag into the lane and really make it difficult to get easy looks in the paint - because they had no threat from outside.

I'm happy with the way our defense performed, but it will be much more difficult to perform at that level vs. St Johns.

True, but it will still be interesting to see if the results were different depending which center was on the floor.

[Golden Avalanche]

The question of this thread is what frustrates me about the hopes of MU ball. IMO, there is not one person that knows a lick about ball that could even think Matt over Luke and hope for NCAA success. If these are the questions we are going debate, maybe MU leaving the Big East thread is not as idiotic as I originally thought.

With such low enthusiasm for the program being discussed, why do you care whether the questions being asked are inane or substantial?

[Stretchdeltsig]

Goose, I hate to say it, but, it may be time for you to retire. 

[Goose]

Golden

I am holding out hope that some of my knowledge on the program's history might rub off on you. I am considering it an online mentoring program.

[real chili 83]

No

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Some math for you metrics guys.  Eng said on the Pod (or was it just Eng agreeing with Joe 100%) that X scored 0.91 ppp.  I'd be very interested in the breakdown of that statistic when Matty was on the floor vs. Luke.  And let me state this upfront.  Duane had a lot to do with the overall improvement on D.  But that breakdown might be instructive.

Again, Luke is better.  But the question properly is whether Matt is better at some things (perhaps rim protection, rebounding) and does that need to be given greater emphasis going forward.  Remember, we gave up 0.91 ppp Saturday.

I don't have the specific data you are looking for but was curious about something similar. I watched the game again and paid attention to how many points at the rim were scored by Xavier and who was defending. Here is the results:

Heldt:
Total: 12/21 FG, 4 fouls drawn, 0 blocks, 1 drawn charge
Gaston: 5/8, 2 fouls drawn
Jones: 3/4, 1 foul drawn
O'Mara: 1/2, 1 foul drawn
Others: 3/7 1 drawn charge

Fischer:
Total: 4/10 FG, 2 fouls drawn, 2 blocks, 0 drawn charges
Gaston: 0/0 FG
Jones: 0/0 FG
O'Mara: 4/6 FG, 1 foul drawn, 1 block
Others: 0/4 FG, 1 foul drawn, 1 block

It's one game, so not definitive. But if people were trying to say that Matt was a lockdown defender while Luke was sieve....they are mistaken.

Biggest concern for Luke was 3 fouls not challenging a shot at the rim. One was a VERY soft moving pick call. Even the announcers were skeptical. One was on an offensive board, trying to be aggressive but didn't have position. The third one was one of his patented 40 feet from the basket fouls.

[MU82]

I don't have the specific data you are looking for but was curious about something similar. I watched the game again and paid attention to how many points at the rim were scored by Xavier and who was defending. Here is the results:

Heldt:
Total: 12/21 FG, 4 fouls drawn, 0 blocks, 1 drawn charge
Gaston: 5/8, 2 fouls drawn
Jones: 3/4, 1 foul drawn
O'Mara: 1/2, 1 foul drawn
Others: 3/7 1 drawn charge

Fischer:
Total: 4/10 FG, 2 fouls drawn, 2 blocks, 0 drawn charges
Gaston: 0/0 FG
Jones: 0/0 FG
O'Mara: 4/6 FG, 1 foul drawn, 1 block
Others: 0/4 FG, 1 foul drawn, 1 block

It's one game, so not definitive. But if people were trying to say that Matt was a lockdown defender while Luke was sieve....they are mistaken.

Biggest concern for Luke was 3 fouls not challenging a shot at the rim. One was a VERY soft moving pick call. Even the announcers were skeptical. One was on an offensive board, trying to be aggressive but didn't have position. The third one was one of his patented 40 feet from the basket fouls.

Interesting stuff, TAMU.

About that last paragraph ... that is my main concern with bringing Luke off the bench. He might try too hard, and that would lead to some dopey fouls. It's a fine line, because sometimes he is too passive and seemingly trying to avoid fouls.

A center SHOULD commit several fouls a game, but they need to be the right kind - slamming somebody while defending our basket. I especially hate those hedging fouls ... so frustrating and unnecessary. It's my least favorite part of Wojo's strategy by far.

[HoopsterBC]

Good info, but really, Heldt is not coordinated enough to defend in the Big East, very foul prone, but I give him credit for his hustle and improvement, has come along
way but has along way to go.  Fisher has some IQ basketball deficiencies because why is a center fouling 35 feet from the basket every game.  It is ridiculous.  Luke
had at least 2 questionable fouls last game, the pick and another under the basket.  The refs last game were horrible.  They did not let anybody play the game.  At
least there is 10 fouls between the both.  Tomorrow should be interesting as the Johnnies just have skinny tall kids that are quick, they should be getting the ball to
Luke all game, and just fake them out, but remember do not walk.

[Big Papi]

I don't have the specific data you are looking for but was curious about something similar. I watched the game again and paid attention to how many points at the rim were scored by Xavier and who was defending. Here is the results:

Heldt:
Total: 12/21 FG, 4 fouls drawn, 0 blocks, 1 drawn charge
Gaston: 5/8, 2 fouls drawn
Jones: 3/4, 1 foul drawn
O'Mara: 1/2, 1 foul drawn
Others: 3/7 1 drawn charge

Fischer:
Total: 4/10 FG, 2 fouls drawn, 2 blocks, 0 drawn charges
Gaston: 0/0 FG
Jones: 0/0 FG
O'Mara: 4/6 FG, 1 foul drawn, 1 block
Others: 0/4 FG, 1 foul drawn, 1 block

It's one game, so not definitive. But if people were trying to say that Matt was a lockdown defender while Luke was sieve....they are mistaken.

Biggest concern for Luke was 3 fouls not challenging a shot at the rim. One was a VERY soft moving pick call. Even the announcers were skeptical. One was on an offensive board, trying to be aggressive but didn't have position. The third one was one of his patented 40 feet from the basket fouls.

Matt hedges off of ball screens way better than Luke.  In this game, he grabbed a boat load of rebounds that I don't think Luke would have and provided great fired up energy that this team was lacking.

I don't think anyone thinks Matt is a better player than Luke but he might be a better fit in the lineup and the defensive scheme that Wojo is running.  He definitely was a better fit against X.

It will be interesting to see how this dynamic plays out the next game and beyond. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

What is your basis for Matt grabbed rebounds Luke wouldn't have? Luke's TR% is significantly higher than Matt's.

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

Matt hedges off of ball screens way better than Luke.  In this game, he grabbed a boat load of rebounds that I don't think Luke would have and provided great fired up energy that this team was lacking.

I don't think anyone thinks Matt is a better player than Luke but he might be a better fit in the lineup and the defensive scheme that Wojo is running.  He definitely was a better fit against X.

It will be interesting to see how this dynamic plays out the next game and beyond.

+1 billion

How many of those rebounds does luke come no where near or fumble out of bounds?  The big early run is negated by offensive putbacks.  Luke is a more skilled, more skilled talented player, but potential never won anything.  Lukes career has been earmarked by poor defense, poor clutch play, and beeing bullied around by BE 4s n 5s.  Again Lukes scoring is fools gold, as the lack of toughness, defense, and rebounding makes his play a net negative for the team.  This team does not need a scoring 5, it needs a 5 with heart and toughness

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

+1 billion

How many of those rebounds does luke come no where near or fumble out of bounds?  The big early run is negated by offensive putbacks.  Luke is a more skilled, more skilled talented player, but potential never won anything.  Lukes career has been earmarked by poor defense, poor clutch play, and beeing bullied around by BE 4s n 5s.  Again Lukes scoring is fools gold, as the lack of toughness, defense, and rebounding makes his play a net negative for the team.  This team does not need a scoring 5, it needs a 5 with heart and toughness

Again, Luke's TR% is significantly better than Heldt's and is one of the best in the conference. You are assertions are simply not based on fact.

[Goose]

TAMU

Wasting your time talking Matt vs. Luke. If anyone needs to be convinced that Luke is the only choice at the 5 then they probably are not everyday ball fans.

[Big Papi]

What is your basis for Matt grabbed rebounds Luke wouldn't have? Luke's TR% is significantly higher than Matt's.

The eye test I guess.  Now that Matt is getting more playing time you can start comparing stats.  Hard to put up stats when you play very sparingly. 

Again, I don't think Matt is more talented than Luke but this is now 2 games in a row where Matt has had extended playing time and he seems to be contributing more than Luke.  I really like the way who moves on the defensive end.