Perspective on Rebuilding

[BM1090]

I have seen rebuilding projects at MU and Wojo's rebuilding project fails to compare to that KO faced. This was not a rebuild that needed 4-5 years to make happen. In addition, the excitement level for the program is a very low point. While KO struggled a bit in first few years he brought juice to the program. He was outspoken, brash and made things happen. I loved KO for the excitement he brought to a dead program and his belief he could happen.

While I am disappointed with the results on the court, I am far more disappointed in the lack of excitement or support off the court. Many of us old guys on here would gladly take a 4-5 rebuild if the end result was a better program than Buzz had here. I really do not see that happening and am afraid more and more folks end up off the bandwagon.

I'm curious as to why you think the bolded part. After Buzz's guys were done transferring out, we were left with one of the worst rosters of any power conference team in the entire country.

[Goose]

Eagle

We were two years removed from quite a good NCAA run for a number of years. When KO took over we were bottom 20 program in the country. Every new coach inherits transfers and so-so players and really not an excuse. Our talent has been upgraded over two years ago but nothing to plan a parade down Wisconsin Ave. over.

[Goose]

Da'Lanch

Much of the discussion was regarding the use of basketball in the overall success of MU. In addition, complaints about attendance, no bang for your buck on buying season tickets and a disconnect with Wojo in general. For me, I could care less if Wojo is active in MU community or not as long as he wins. I think he is losing more of the old guard than many think he is.

[NotAnAlum]

While I am disappointed with the results on the court, I am far more disappointed in the lack of excitement or support off the court. Many of us old guys on here would gladly take a 4-5 rebuild if the end result was a better program than Buzz had here. I really do not see that happening and am afraid more and more folks end up off the bandwagon.

Two things.  Its much harder to generate excitement on the build up when you've had the kind of recent success that Buzz generated.  O'Neill was coming off a time when the program looked to be headed to mid major status so any improvement was a relief.  Second if the expectation is to be BETTER than S-16,S-16,E-8, tournament every year, top 3 finish in the BE all the time before people can get excited that is a pretty difficult bar to jump over.  I personally was ok with the program under Buzz doing things the way he wanted to do them BUT the MU Admin WASN'T so fans have to accept maybe similar success with less off court issues as significant improvement.  I think that once the team gets filled in with experienced players to where they are competitive and can pull an upset over top 10 opponents from time to time AND the talent gets to where there are individual players that fans look forward to watching light it up the excitement will return.

[Badgerhater]

I'm curious as to why you think the bolded part. After Buzz's guys were done transferring out, we were left with one of the worst rosters of any power conference team in the entire country.

I think the VA Tech roster of that year was worse.

[mayfairskatingrink]

This is the most reasonable post about where we are that I have read in ages. The fact is that when Wojo came in, we had but eight scholarship athletes on the roster. Our best player that year was a grad transfer (Carlino) and the Hillbilly left us with nothing.

The Scoopers of my generation won't be happy unless we are a blue blood program mentioned in the same breath with such schools as Louisville, North Carolina and Duke, Villanova, Kentucky etc. We were so spoiled in our youth that we think there's no reason other than ourselves that keeps us from getting back to the McGuire era.

We are frustrated with Wojo because he is a button-down, gentlemanly, business-like Coach K clone. He's not Al -- not that anyone could ever be Al. Buzz was more like what we expected in our coach and we lost him largely because our administration was expecting more of Buzz.

If we're objective -- and that's not easy for us -- we know that Marquette is not a win at all costs school. We inherently know that things take time and some recruits may not be what we thought they would be. We're going to miss but we also must acknowledge that we're better than we were two years ago and probably better than we were a year ago. If we're getting beat, it is by senior teams that exploit our youth and impatience and lack of defense. Soon enough, we'll be seniors and we too will do that to others.

So you think Wojo will all of a sudden learn how to teach defense in the next few years?

He's shown zero ability so far.

[Goose]

dgies

Always respect your posts and your love of the program. I agree with most of your post on the Al crowd , with one exception. If MU is not win at all cost program stop spending money like they are. There are far better use of funds at a university, that is not rolling in the dough, than blowing on a mid tier program. Either get real ROI from the program or downsize and use funds elsewhere.

[Loose Cannon]

Could be but I don't think so. I really think Wojo picked Marquette because he saw a school with all the ingredients to build a dynasty program. He has the chance to build something here that could eventually become blue blooded. I think the only jobs I could see him leaving for are other blue bloods.

  Yep, I agree.  I think all those year with Coach K and witnessing k's thought process of staying in Durham and being comfortable in the Duke job rather than moving on to seemingly Greener Grass has given Wojo a deeper insight into what is really important. I think that might be the factors in staying in Durham for those many years.

  Wojo has a Blue collar background (like's "K") and Milwaukee seems to be a great fit.

  If he wins I see a long Stay.

[Babybluejeans]

Since the Badger game I've been thinking a lot about how long rebuilding should take and where Wojo is on that path, is he moving more slowly because he knows he has the long term support of the Marquette admin etc.?

First in the last 30 years we've had 3 head coach changes were the coach was effectively asked to leave. (I'm going to count Buzz as asked to leave as the admin certainly didn't seem too sad to see him go).  In all 3 cases the new HC had no Head Coaching experience.  Its these situation's (HC pushed out, new HC no experience) that lead to the longest rebuilding periods. 

Under O'Neill we had an OK first season, a disastrous 2nd season, an average but showing promise no NIT 3rd season, before we finally got back to the Tournament in the 4th season.  It was the 5th season before they won a game in the Tournament (the sweet 16 run).  O'Neill had a lot of questionable coaching decisions in those first 4 years but by year 5 he had improved to the point that people felt the program was in good hands.  Crean had a similar trajectory but he was 1 year ahead and better once he got there BUT that extra improvement has a lot to do with getting a once in a lifetime future NBA hall of famer in his 3rd year. 

The first year of any coach is more about his predecessor than it is about him. Year 2 at 20-13 Wojo out preformed either of the other 2 and he also plays in a much tougher league.  If MU ends up anywhere near the NCAA bubble he will have out done O'Neill's 3rd year and without Wade I'm not sure Crean's 3rd year is a lot better.  It just shows it really takes 4 years to recover from a coach being forced out.  In fact looking at it this way it now seems that rather than being too patient Wojo may have actually be too impatient and that might come back to bite him in the decision to take one and done Henry.   

Had Wojo simply gotten a pair of decent High School 4s rather than Henry and Wally he would have had a second season like O'Neill's BUT he'd have 2 maturing PFs now that would be ready to set MU up for the 4th season when these rebuilding jobs seem to Finally bear fruit.  The talent that is in the program now including the kids signed for next year would seem to set MU up for a good run with my main concern being the lack of maturity in the front court where it matters most. (The Henry effect??)
The final thought is what if Wojo is successful, that just means he is likely to leave.  That is probably very true. 

I doubt very much Wojo will be a lifer at MU.  BUT if the coach moves on because he is successful it seems you don't normally face this brutal 4 year rebuild cycle because the program is on the way up.  Look at Crean to Buzz, the HC change at Butler, the last few at Xavier.  So as much as its frustrating to see evidence that this team might not be ready this year it would be crazy to assume Wojo won't make it. 

So the rest of the year I'm going to try to enjoy the ride.

edit: paragraphs are your friend.

This is a really great take. The most salient point is the distinction between a head coach leaving and a head coach being asked to leave, and how different the turnaround can be depending on which it is. This puts Wojo's current spot in perspective--because he took over what had become approximately a broken program--and will also put into perspective his departure if/when he succeeds here. Thanks for this.

[cnse70]

Over the past weekend I listened to many solid MU backers complain and complain hard about the program. I was quite surprised by the negative Wojo talk in general in these conversations. Some of these folks I have had heated debates regarding where I believe MU fits into overall image of the university and their tone had changed drastically since the Buzz era. At that time they were far more in the academics at MU is the best sales tool and basketball was a nice marketing tool. Trust me, MU basketball has been, and hopefully will be in the future, the best avenue to improve the university as a whole.
[/quote]

Big time fan, alum, and long time lurker on the boards.  I don't post much, but this caught my eye.  If true, I'm curious to know what the solid MU backers expectations of the program are?  Can we just run out and hire "a better coach" here at MU?  Didn't turn out too well with Shaka.  Cal recently lost to Seton Hall....maybe to early to wish we had hired Martin. 

I admit I'm a little frustrated with the lack of attendance and poor defensive results, but the over-all talent of WoJo's recruits, offensive abilities, and wins (hopefully) continue to get better.  Watching a team that can actually shoot is also a breath of fresh air. 

People are certainly entitled to their opinions.  I guess I would just hope a little patience prevails and they continue to support the program.  Grass is not always greener on the other side. 

[brewcity77]

We were two years removed from quite a good NCAA run for a number of years. When KO took over we were bottom 20 program in the country. Every new coach inherits transfers and so-so players and really not an excuse. Our talent has been upgraded over two years ago but nothing to plan a parade down Wisconsin Ave. over.

I love your commentary and always enjoy your perspective, but I'm really curious what the magical answer is. I hear this line about how we aren't on track and I just don''t get what more Wojo is supposed to be doing. His first year, his entire job was to put a team on the floor that wasn't too embarrassing. Frankly, if we don't have Carlino, if Derrick and Juan don't have career years, and if we don't go to zone, we probably would have been one of the worst teams in the country. We were still a top-100 team per Pomeroy and top-150 per the RPI. Toss that year out the window, and frankly, we still probably overachieved when you look at what Buzz left us with.

So this is year two since Wojo has been able to bring in his own guys. 7 of our top 10 players in terms of minutes are his recruits, and 5 of those are freshmen and sophomores that will be around for at two more years (not including redshirt Anim). He is building a core that will be bolstered with four committed players between 6'7" and 6'10" in the next two classes (Cain, John, Bailey, Eke) so the length we lack is being addressed.

Right now, we have a borderline elite offense. If you like old school stats, we are 17th in the country at 86.4 ppg. If you like new school stats, we are 17th in the country in adjusted offensive efficiency at 1.146 ppp. By any metric, with two years of Wojo recruits and 6 of our top 7 players in terms of offensive efficiency being his guys, the future of our offense is blisteringly bright. If offense was the only metric, going from 155 to 17 in two years is damn sure worth throwing a parade over especially when that efficiency is driven primarily by the young players our new coach brought in.

The defense is a work in progress, but we don't have length. Pomeroy has written how defensive efficiency correlates more closely with length than offensive efficiency so logic would follow that adding players with length will improve that defense. Right now, 18 of the top-20 defensive efficiency teams are ranked in the top-100 in terms of height. The lowest ranked team in terms of height is #116 South Carolina. We are ranked #208 in terms of height. If you want an elite defense, you need length. And it's coming.

This is year two of Wojo having his own players. If he gets to the NCAAs this year or next, I'd say he's on schedule. We have a top-20 offense and the pieces coming to potentially have a top-20 defense. What more do you really expect? Honestly, where SHOULD we be right now?

[HoopsterBC]

Brew, I really see this as a longer situation then the next two years.  This year has 3 seniors, which they lose and add 3 freshman.  Not sure that is an even exchange.
I think the start of Wojos improvement starts in 2018 when his recruits are in place.  Add Bailey and hopefully Hauser and another and you have had 4 years of decent
recruiting.   Still some holes, but they can be filled with 2 other recruits.  2017 can only be better if he signs a grad transfer big or Juco player.  That will not be determined till spring.

The Henry Ellenson situation put him back one year.  2018, no NCAA, no Wojo.

[Goose]

Brew

I am fine waiting another year and seeing what happens. That said, in regards to current talent and in game coaching I believe we are a long way from being competitive in most BE games this year. I am not sold on the young talent as being upper BE talent at this point. I like the two freshmen quite a bit but do not think they will be game changers for the program.

All in all, I am not jumping ship, nor would I ever jump ship. That said, a great MU fan, and season ticket holder for decades, told me Saturday afternoon he was considering giving up MU tickets and buying Bucks tickets next season.

Lastly, the answer to your question on where we should be now...beyond the point of making excuses in early December why next year is the win or else year. There is ZERO juice in the program and that is a problem.

[brewcity77]

Not just Goose, I'd address this to anyone currently criticizing the "state of the program".

Where should we be right now?

I think I can objectively say we are around 5th-7th in the conference after a 7th place finish last year. We are probably a bubble team and will be there most of the year, with our NCAA fate something we'll point at as likely coming down to 2-4 possession when Selection Sunday rolls around (like last year, where 3 one-possession games against DePaul, Belmont, and Creighton probably cost us a bid). We have a top-20 offense and a mediocre but not-so-bad-to-cost-us-a-bid defense. We have five players getting double digit minutes that will be here the next 3+ (including this) year, so our core is young. What more did you objectively expect this staff to do after being handed the roster that Wojo had to deal with in 2014-15?

[Marcus92]

Great post, Brew. Sums up the way I see the state of the program. We're not where we want to be yet. But the progress Wojo's made is clear and significant.

[brewcity77]

Brew

I am fine waiting another year and seeing what happens. That said, in regards to current talent and in game coaching I believe we are a long way from being competitive in most BE games this year. I am not sold on the young talent as being upper BE talent at this point. I like the two freshmen quite a bit but do not think they will be game changers for the program.

All in all, I am not jumping ship, nor would I ever jump ship. That said, a great MU fan, and season ticket holder for decades, told me Saturday afternoon he was considering giving up MU tickets and buying Bucks tickets next season.

Lastly, the answer to your question on where we should be now...beyond the point of making excuses in early December why next year is the win or else year. There is ZERO juice in the program and that is a problem.

I'm a big fan of Hauser and Howard, but I guess to each their own. As far as the juice...who's fault is that? Buzz missed the tournament with what should have been a coast-to-a-bid team on paper. The next year, we lost three of our top four in terms of minutes (Derrick was the one that stayed) and another starter in Otule. So 2014-15 there was no juice because Buzz left a squeezed out lemon in Wojo's office. Last year we won 20 games, sent as player to the NBA as a top-20 pick, and at least got back to winning. This year we look like a bubble team, most likely at least NIT.

Short of going door-to-door to encourage STHs and students to attend, what is Wojo supposed to do that he's not doing? Two of the three missed NCAA years are squarely on Buzz. I just get frustrated hearing that Wojo isn't getting it done because when I look at the level of recruiting and the trajectory of the program, I don't know what more to expect.

This isn't like when Crean left Buzz three all-time great seniors in 2009 and three of the top four players in terms of minutes for the 2010 NCAA team. In terms of experience, Wojo inherited Derrick, Juan, and Mayo as opposed to McNeal, Matthews, and James. In terms of the future, he inherited Jajuan, Duane, and Luke compared to Lazar, Acker, and Cooby. The latter might be comparable (though I'd say Lazar alone offsets all of the other three), the former certainly isn't.

[dgies9156]

So you think Wojo will all of a sudden learn how to teach defense in the next few years?

One can hope.

[brewcity77]

Brew, I really see this as a longer situation then the next two years.  This year has 3 seniors, which they lose and add 3 freshman.  Not sure that is an even exchange.
I think the start of Wojos improvement starts in 2018 when his recruits are in place.  Add Bailey and hopefully Hauser and another and you have had 4 years of decent
recruiting.   Still some holes, but they can be filled with 2 other recruits.  2017 can only be better if he signs a grad transfer big or Juco player.  That will not be determined till spring.

The Henry Ellenson situation put him back one year.  2018, no NCAA, no Wojo.

My personal opinion, and I'm sure it's a minority opinion, but I do think next year will be better. Offensively, Luke is a huge loss. But I think Matt is a better defender and think he can make up for enough on offense to offset that loss. Jajuan is good, but he has deficiencies as well and I feel we have the pieces in place to offset that loss as well. As far as Reinhardt, he's been a disappointment so far (Saturday notwithstanding) and again, I like what we have behind him.

Will Eke, John, and Cain make up for those three immediately? No. But the improvement of our current youth coupled with the addition of more length I do feel will offset the losses.

I agree on 2018-19 as the time we should expect a big improvement. Looking at the continuity we will have by then and the establishment of a full Wojo-recruited roster, that's when we should be a top-25 team and able to compete with just about anyone on our night. I'm not saying it's Final Four or bust, but we should feel proud of that team and the "juice" we are missing should be fresh with an exciting roster and new arena.

This rebuild is one where I have to side with the departed Chicos. Wojo needs 5 years before a full evaluation can be done. If he makes the NCAA or NIT or nothing the next two years will helkp sculpt those opinions, but I'm going to try my hardest to withhold too severe of judgment until we see that team.

[Goose]

Brew

I said I like the two freshmen. All I said was that I am not certain they will improve enough to be the core for the future. Trust me, not saying they cannot be but you never know. HE was a great freshman at MU and many here think we are better with him gone this year.

For my honest opinion on lack of juice...I really do not think the vast majority of fans are not big fans of Wojo. Have heard countless times how unimpressed folks were after meeting him. I have met him a couple of times and really have no impression of him after talking with him. Not negative, but came away with kind of "that was a waste of three minutes" feeling. Personality and the ability to connect with people is important in all walks of life and not sure he has that skill set.

[Badgerhater]

I'm a big fan of Hauser and Howard, but I guess to each their own. As far as the juice...who's fault is that? Buzz missed the tournament with what should have been a coast-to-a-bid team on paper. The next year, we lost three of our top four in terms of minutes (Derrick was the one that stayed) and another starter in Otule. So 2014-15 there was no juice because Buzz left a squeezed out lemon in Wojo's office. Last year we won 20 games, sent as player to the NBA as a top-20 pick, and at least got back to winning. This year we look like a bubble team, most likely at least NIT.

Short of going door-to-door to encourage STHs and students to attend, what is Wojo supposed to do that he's not doing? Two of the three missed NCAA years are squarely on Buzz. I just get frustrated hearing that Wojo isn't getting it done because when I look at the level of recruiting and the trajectory of the program, I don't know what more to expect.

This isn't like when Crean left Buzz three all-time great seniors in 2009 and three of the top four players in terms of minutes for the 2010 NCAA team. In terms of experience, Wojo inherited Derrick, Juan, and Mayo as opposed to McNeal, Matthews, and James. In terms of the future, he inherited Jajuan, Duane, and Luke compared to Lazar, Acker, and Cooby. The latter might be comparable (though I'd say Lazar alone offsets all of the other three), the former certainly isn't.

One cannot entirely blame Wojo.   He couldn't bring in a Jimmy Butler, DJO or Jae Crowder in today if he wanted to.

[Marcus92]

Many doubted this year's team could possibly be better than last year's — simply because we lost Henry to the NBA. But we are better, at least by any metric I've seen. After improving from 10th to 7th in the conference in 2015-16, KenPom and others now project us as the 5th best team in the Big East.

How is that possible? All the returnees (including Wojo) have another year of experience under their belts. Players improve — like Luke pulling down defensive rebounds at the highest rate of his career. And the newcomers (Sam, Markus, Katin and Andrew) have exceeded expectations.

I see no reason why next year's team can't be even better yet.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU

I agree that Wojo has a very long leash. IMO MU brass is making a serious roll of the dice on Wojo and the basketball program. I am an optimist by nature, especially regarding MU ball, but I think Wojo has little to no chance of making even a tier below blue blood. Very strongly beginning to believe he is the wrong guy for the job.

Over the past weekend I listened to many solid MU backers complain and complain hard about the program. I was quite surprised by the negative Wojo talk in general in these conversations. Some of these folks I have had heated debates regarding where I believe MU fits into overall image of the university and their tone had changed drastically since the Buzz era. At that time they were far more in the academics at MU is the best sales tool and basketball was a nice marketing tool. Trust me, MU basketball has been, and hopefully will be in the future, the best avenue to improve the university as a whole.

Goose, with all due respect, I don't believe for a second that you are "beginning to believe he is the wrong guy for the job." From what I can see, you and many corners of Marquette fandom have thought that since the day Wojo was hired.

I don't know what it was. Whether it was us believing we were getting Shaka...Or people spreading misinformation about Tony Bennett and Ben Howland being candidates (they weren't)...Or people just hating Duke and anyone from there...Many just decided that they hated the hire and nothing short of immediate success was going to change that.

I would like to hear a solution. Not a complaint. There's no use in saying we shouldn't have hired Wojo because we did. We are here now. And Wojo has done nothing but improve the program since he got here. Every year he's put a better product on the floor. Maybe it's not going as quickly as we would like but it's heading oh the right direction. Is the smart move really to pull the plug and start over? What would that do too the program?

Who should have we hired instead of Wojo? Can you honestly say that anyone else would have given the program more juice? Howland? He plays the most boring style of basketball next to the badgers, is struggling at Mississippi State, and has skeletons in the closet to boot. Cuonzo? Maybe. But he was gifted a great roster and grabbed two burger boys and has been average. He definitely doesn't get rabb to come to Marquette and I doubt he'd get brown here either. He'd probably be where we are now. Oh, he also had a sexual harassment scandal in his first year.

The program was doomed to "run low on juice" long before Wojo was hired. It started when Buzz and Larry got into their who's got the bigger penis contest and it was sealed when Buzz left for VT. Wojo is not responsible for lack of juice, he is however responsible for getting the juice back. I don't know how much better we could have reasonably expected him to do by this point.

[HoopsterBC]

If you really look at, two years ago the team could barely score, hard to watch.  Last year was better but Ellenson was such a volume shooter it was hard to get excited,
maybe the players around him were not to good.  This year the team can score, shoot, and fun to watch.  It will be a fun ride, defense, maybe have to out score teams
this year.  7th looks about right, to small and to soft, not sure Wojo has the right players yet.  They still scored 83 against Wisky, and they play D.

[brewcity77]

I don't know what it was. Whether it was us believing we were getting Shaka...Or people spreading misinformation about Tony Bennett and Ben Howland being candidates (they weren't)...

Bennett was a candidate for Marquette, just not when Buzz left.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Bennett was a candidate for Marquette, just not when Buzz left.

This is true.