[Cracked Sidewalks] Marquette's Greatest Players #26-50

[CrackedSidewalksSays]

Marquette's Greatest Players #26-50

The following is the third in a series of guest columns written by John Pudner ('88).26th to 50th Best Marquette Players Ever...

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2008/01/marquettes-greatest-players-26-50.html

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I would just like to chime in that this is a really great list. I may not agree with the list...but seeing numbers 26 through 50 makes me look forward to who makes up numbers 1 through 25.

PS:  McCaskill higher than Wardle, Powell and Novak? C'mon!!

[mu_hilltopper]

Check his spreadsheet .. has lots of info how each was rated.

http://www.muscoop.com/uploads/640MUPlayers.xls

[Gato78]

Bob Wolf #45? Never, ever would anyone who saw them play, put Jeff Sewell ahead of Bob Wolf. Wolf was great, one of MU's all time best. Sewell was excellent but not in Wolf's league. Wolf was better than everyone on that page. Novak had one of the greatest games and seasons in MU history his senior year. Don't discount how great he was--should be ahead of McCaskill and Crawford.

[77ncaachamps]

Bob Wolf #45? Never, ever would anyone who saw them play, put Jeff Sewell ahead of Bob Wolf. Wolf was great, one of MU's all time best. Sewell was excellent but not in Wolf's league. Wolf was better than everyone on that page. Novak had one of the greatest games and seasons in MU history his senior year. Don't discount how great he was--should be ahead of McCaskill and Crawford.

Agreed. Old timers I've talked to said Wolf could dominate games.

[The Lens]

Would be nice to see what Wardle's career would have been like if TC hadn't treated his Jr & Sr season like the Crean farm system.  Crean's lack of urgency for wins back then has left a sour taste in my mouth to this day.

[ToddPacker]

Huh?  You don't think he was trying as hard as possible to win back then?  Give me a freaking break.  TC is one of the most competitive people you will probably ever see.  To even suggest that he was not doing his best to win games is moronic.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Would be nice to see what Wardle's career would have been like if TC hadn't treated his Jr & Sr season like the Crean farm system.  Crean's lack of urgency for wins back then has left a sour taste in my mouth to this day.

seriously?

The cupboard was pretty frickin' bare when TC came in.

I mean, I went to all of the games back then, I'm not sure what could have been differently. Running the picket fence for Wardle was the only weapon MU had.

[bamamarquettefan]

As that author of the Top 100, thanks for the responses and interest, and let me make a couple of notes.  Wolf being rated way too low and McCaskill way too high seems to be the biggest concern in the responses so far, and this is a function of the other factors I consider.  Based on their stats at Marquette, I have Wolf at 17th all time, and McCaskill as a borderline top 60 pick, which is probably in line with that response.  That is the "STAT" figure marked in blue on the spreadsheet that was sent around.  No question, Wolf put up far superior numbers.  The reason McCaskill is ahead on this listing is the other two factors I consider.  The one straight up comparison McCaskill wins is that the NBA scouts picked him in the 2nd round and Wolf in the 2nd round and he was good enough at the next level to get on the court for a couple of years, while Wolf was a 7th round pick who was not.  I do think McCaskill's shot blocking and rebounding and overall defense that got him picked as 2nd team all-conference pick.  This gives him an edge in my "dominance" category, which is really how he was evaluated at the next level, etc.  The second is the success MU had while the player was contributing, and while both players made the NIT championship game, Wolf's teams won 52% of their games and didn't go to a tourney the other years, while McCaskill's teams won 67% of their games and made the Sweet 16.

This isn't to argue the point.  I'm sure looking at the numbers Wolf would fill it up in a one-on-one, and I realize my system punishes guys who didn't have success because they had much weaker teammates (Tony Smith will be way to low in the next column because he was all alone), but I did want to reward the guys who were part of taking teams to the next level.

This same explanation applies to Crawford being over Novak (Novak better numbers at MU, but Crawford better at the next level, etc.).  Certainly it can be argued that I should have weighted the on court numbers as the vast majority of the rating, but the other reason I didn't do that is a lot of great players don't have stats compiled anywhere, including the MU athletic department, so I've tried to find as many ways to compare 640 players at once as possible.

If more stats can be compiled I'd love to adjust my spreadsheet, and also keep notes from people like each of you that saw them play in various years and are able to give perspective.
 

[spartan3186]

This is a minor point but McNeal hasn't hit 200 steals yet. As of today he is at 167 steals, which is still good enough for 7th all time in that category. Again, not a huge thing but I thought I would point it out. Great work, I look forward to the next installment.

[Henry Sugar]

JP,

I love the work that you've done on this analysis.  If nothing else, you have your reasons which you clearly explain.  I think that a lot of the discussion is just now beginning, and will really pop up once you unveil the top 25 players.

I do think that you have McNeal rated too high.  On the Dominance factor, while he may get props as a Defensive wizard, he's also (until this year), been a substandard Offensive player.  In fact, his freshman year, he couldn't even have been considered a winning player because his Offensive Rating was less than his Defensive Rating. 

05-06
Team  ORtg (104.8 )    DRtg (100.2)
McNeal       (87.5)             (95.9)

06-07
Team  ORtg (102.3)    DRtg (95.0)
McNeal       (93.4)             (89.9) - which is phenomenal

This Year
Team  ORtg (113.8 )    DRtg (85.0)
McNeal       (110.1)           (82.4)

Only this year has McNeal not been a drag on the overall team Offense.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Check his spreadsheet .. has lots of info how each was rated.

http://www.muscoop.com/uploads/640MUPlayers.xls

If the list you linked to is the final list then the inclusion of Doc Rivers as one of the top 5 MU players ever is borderline obscene. I like Doc Rivers, he seems like a great guy, he always speaks highly of MU and he gave a fantastic speech when they (wrongfully) retired his number. But if anything, he was something of a disappointment at Marquette!

But I want to reiterate...great list and it makes for a great discussion.

[ChuckyChip]

Wow, I thought I was the founder and only member of the "Doc Rivers is Overrated Club".  Glad to see I'm not alone. 

As for the list, to have McCaskill rated higher than Brian Wardle illustrates the flaw in the "scoring" system.  Yes, McCaskill had a cup of coffee in the NBA, but really, Wardle is the 4th leading scorer in the history of the program!!

Also, I'm confused by the comment that implies McCaskill started on the 1994 sweet sixteen team - I believe he was a reserve.  The starters were Damon Key, Roney Eford, Jimmy Mac, Logtermann, and T. Miller.  How cam McCaskill be ranked higher than Logtermann???

[HarveysWallbangers]

Amal wasn't a starter...but during that run I thought he was more effective out there than McIlivaine, who I think was in foul trouble in at least one of the first two games.