Katin and team eFG%

[Marcus92]

Wojo's talked repeated about offensive efficiency this season, from the open practice to postgame interviews. The facts are there for everyone to see: Katin is 2nd on the team in field goals attempted — but just 6th in field goals made. So I'm sure Wojo is aware of this and working with Katin on it.

Katin's career three-point percentage (36.7%) suggests he's capable of better from beyond the arc. Unfortunately, his career two-point percentage (40.8%) isn't as encouraging, although he was much better last year at USC (50.9%). And he is performing well in other areas: 2nd on the team in steals, 4th in offensive rebounds, 5th in defensive boards.

In addition to team rebounding and turnovers, Katin's shooting is something I'll be watching carefully over the next few games.

[GGGG]

Yes, the defense played stupidly and the refs gave him the benefit of the doubt.  That doesn't make them good decisions or shots.

That is simply false.  Katin drove to the basket on four separate occasions in the first half and was fouled four times making 8 free throws.  I don't care how out of control he might have been, if IUPUI is going to keep fouling him, he's gotta keep doing it.  Those are good decisions.

I have literally never heard a coach complain about that. 

[mu03eng]

Did he get fouled on his drives? Yes.

Did he hit his FTs? Yes.

Why do you have a problem with this?

Quit looking for things to complain about when it comes to Katin's game.

Cause there is plenty legit stuff to complain about with his game a'imrite?

[Loose Cannon]

So Katin shouldn't drive to the hoop when it is working against IUPUI because it may not work in the BE?


.

Bottom  Line

1) Objective:   Win this Game.

2) How:           Whatever Works.

[willie warrior]

I can say that this is patently false. Katin has ridden a lot of pine after bad shots. He sat for most of the Pitt and Michigan games.

Ok. I stand corrected. He rides the pines. He I 3rd on the team in minutes  maybe 2nd. He is not wojo's boy. He has ridden "a lot of pine." You are always right.

[GB Warrior]

Katin's jumpers are generally of the frustrating variety because they just don't feel like they're in the flow of the offense. If he stops missing bunnies at the rim, we'll see a bit of reversion to the mean. That said, we as a team (and especially Katin) need to finish stronger at the rim. Lots of layups missed on breakaways that should be flushed. JJJ seems to be the only one comfortable dunking.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Did he get fouled on his drives? Yes.

Did he hit his FTs? Yes.

Why do you have a problem with this?

Quit looking for things to complain about when it comes to Katin's game.

It points to why his ORtg and eFg% and by far the lowest on the team-- bad shot selection and too often.  A successful outcome in one instance does not mean it is a good long term approach.  His numbers thus far, including the last game, bear this out.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

That is simply false.  Katin drove to the basket on four separate occasions in the first half and was fouled four times making 8 free throws.  I don't care how out of control he might have been, if IUPUI is going to keep fouling him, he's gotta keep doing it.  Those are good decisions.

I have literally never heard a coach complain about that.

Again, a good outcome doesn't mean it was a good decision.  If a quarterback repeatedly throws into triple coverage but completes a few, should he be encouraged to keep doing it?  If a pitcher in baseball keeps hanging his curve ball but several batters miss it, should the pitching coach keep telling him to throw it?  His stats so far are a pretty good indicator that he isn't taking good shots on a consistent basis.

[mu03eng]

It points to why his ORtg and eFg% and by far the lowest on the team-- bad shot selection and too often.  A successful outcome in one instance does not mean it is a good long term approach.  His numbers thus far, including the last game, bear this out.

His shot selection changed in the IUPUI game versus earlier games, especially Pitt and Michigan. He attacked more and jacked fewer 3s out of sync with the offense against IUPUI, which resulted in a better ORtg and eFG%, so you should be happen.

The stats don't care how he's generating the efficiency (better 3s, made lay-ups, hitting FTs, whatever). So you are actually arguing against yourself. There is no metric for the quality of the approach for long term sustained success that I'm aware of.

[GGGG]

Again, a good outcome doesn't mean it was a good decision.  If a quarterback repeatedly throws into triple coverage but completes a few, should he be encouraged to keep doing it?  If a pitcher in baseball keeps hanging his curve ball but several batters miss it, should the pitching coach keep telling him to throw it?  His stats so far are a pretty good indicator that he isn't taking good shots on a consistent basis.

Yes, when you get positive outcomes FOUR times when you drive the lane, it is by definition a good decision.  This wasn't him driving into a lane with three bigs where he gets lucky.  This was FOUR times. 

You are right that his overall shot selection has been disappointing.  But those drives aren't examples of poor shots.

[mu03eng]

Again, a good outcome doesn't mean it was a good decision.  If a quarterback repeatedly throws into triple coverage but completes a few, should he be encouraged to keep doing it?  If a pitcher in baseball keeps hanging his curve ball but several batters miss it, should the pitching coach keep telling him to throw it?  His stats so far are a pretty good indicator that he isn't taking good shots on a consistent basis.

Bad analogies....more appropriate for your argument would be the quarterback chucking deep balls repeatedly trying to draw PA flags after it happened at least twice already or a pitcher pitching low as the umpire has been calling low strikes early in the game.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

The stats don't care how he's generating the efficiency (better 3s, made lay-ups, hitting FTs, whatever). So you are actually arguing against yourself. There is no metric for the quality of the approach for long term sustained success that I'm aware of.

That's the point, though, the stats show he is generating inefficiency.  My point is that it is based on frequent poor shot selection; my opinion is that his shot selection wasn't much better in the last game and he was fortunate to get the fouls & calls that he did.  Most others disagree.  We'll see how it plays out in the future, though if Marquette is going to do well in conference and non-cupcake games, Reinhardt is going to have to significantly improve his efficiency.

[brewcity77]

Sorry, Sultan, but I have to call you out on your BS here. First of all, in my amateur, not-a-coach opinion, we score in three different ways:
.

• Making the extra pass for a set shot. Usually involves pass-pass-shoot and a corner three, but sometimes set shots off one pass if a guy is wide open.
• Cutters driving to the rim. We pass around to find a good perimeter shot, but when they aren't emerging, one of the wings or bigs cuts to the hoop for an entry pass and easy bucket.
• Driving around a screen using athleticism and speed to get a lay-up at the rim.

.
So the argument would go that Reinhardt was playing fine because he was driving and getting free throws, right? Not so much. What he was doing wasn't using a screen or working off multiple passes, it was putting his head down, plowing into a defender, and hoping for a call while throwing up a wild shot that had no chance of scoring. Another word for that would be "hero ball". So what was it you said about "hero ball" the other night?
.

**The offense just breaks down into hero ball.  If you are a small team that relies on shooting, you have to run something to create those shots.  That takes time and patience.  But these guys get going too fast and simply play frantic.  I know you want to push the pace, but there is a time and a place for that.  NOT when you are in the half court.

.
He wasn't running anything. He wasn't using time or demonstrating patience. He was playing fast and frantic and happened to get lucky. Like you said, there's no place for that in the half-court set. Sure, it worked against IUPUI, but if he tries that crap against Yante Matin, Ethan Happ, or any of the trees he'll see in the Big East, they'll smack his ass to the floor and we'll be sprinting back to defend a 5-on-4 break because Reinhardt is still busy recovering from getting steamrolled.

You need to practice how you play. Like it or not, these games are essentially practice for what we will be dealing with the rest of the year, and this crap simply won't fly at a higher level. Dude got lucky and got bailed out on wild-ass hero ball drives, but the reality is the crap he was doing most of the first half was the same crap that cost us the Pitt game in the second half. He wasn't playing under control and he absolutely wasn't playing in the flow of the offense.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Yes, when you get positive outcomes FOUR times when you drive the lane, it is by definition a good decision.  This wasn't him driving into a lane with three bigs where he gets lucky.  This was FOUR times. 

You are right that his overall shot selection has been disappointing.  But those drives aren't examples of poor shots.

So if a pitcher hangs four breaking balls but none result in hits then they were good pitches?

[GGGG]

It's not lucky when you get positive outcomes four times in a 12 minute stretch.  It's smart basketball.  Force the defense to adjust.

[GGGG]

So if a pitcher hangs four breaking balls but none result in hits then they were good pitches?

That's baseball.  Not basketball.  Poor analogy.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

That's baseball.  Not basketball.  Poor analogy.

Sure. Okay.  If JJJ hits four shots from behind the backboard, should he be encouraged to keep throwing them up there? If Rowsey hits four 3's from well beyond the NBA 3 point line, should he be encouraged to keep launching from there? Does success in those instances make them good or efficient decisions going forward?

[brewcity77]

It's not lucky when you get positive outcomes four times in a 12 minute stretch.  It's smart basketball.  Force the defense to adjust.

It's the same out-of-control hero ball you decried the other night. It's trying to make a play outside the framework of the offense like you decried the other night. It seems disingenuous to say it's a good idea when it works and a bad idea when it doesn't.

[GGGG]

Sure. Okay.  If JJJ hits four shots from behind the backboard, should he be encouraged to keep throwing them up there?

No.  Because that's not good basketball.  Driving the lanes and repeatedly drawing fouls is a GOOD THING!  That's what you want.  Coaches actually encourage that.

Now it obviously isn't going to work against teams like UW, but it was against IUPUI. 

[GGGG]

It's the same out-of-control hero ball you decried the other night. It's trying to make a play outside the framework of the offense like you decried the other night. It seems disingenuous to say it's a good idea when it works and a bad idea when it doesn't.

It wasn't the same.  It was successful FOUR TIMES!!!  Therefore it was smart basketball.

[brewcity77]

No.  Because that's not good basketball.  Driving the lanes and repeatedly drawing fouls is a GOOD THING!  That's what you want.  Coaches actually encourage that.

Personally, I think there's a big difference between driving the lane with no chance of scoring outside the flow of the offense and driving the lane around a planned screen when you are able to get a clean look at the hoop.

What we saw from Katin last night as opposed to what we see regularly from Jajuan are diametrically opposed events. Just because he got positive results doesn't mean they should be integrated into the offense or that they are part of what the offense intends to do.

[GGGG]

Personally, I think there's a big difference between driving the lane with no chance of scoring outside the flow of the offense and driving the lane around a planned screen when you are able to get a clean look at the hoop.

What we saw from Katin last night as opposed to what we see regularly from Jajuan are diametrically opposed events. Just because he got positive results doesn't mean they should be integrated into the offense or that they are part of what the offense intends to do.

I disagree with that.  I think Wojo is pleased that Katin kept driving the lane and drawing fouls.  It won't work against everybody, but the players have to be smart enough to recognize that.  When it does work, you should keep doing it.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Some were, some weren't.  If you go flailing through the lane out of control, the refs aren't always going to give you the benefit of the doubt as they did last night.  And IUPUI did him a favor by fouling him and bailing him out on shots that had no chance to go in.

The airballed Eurostep layup in traffic against Pitt comes to mind

[MerrittsMustache]

Personally, I think there's a big difference between driving the lane with no chance of scoring outside the flow of the offense and driving the lane around a planned screen when you are able to get a clean look at the hoop.

What we saw from Katin last night as opposed to what we see regularly from Jajuan are diametrically opposed events. Just because he got positive results doesn't mean they should be integrated into the offense or that they are part of what the offense intends to do.

He drove to the lane and scored 8 points in doing so. He missed a couple in close but on one of them, he got the rebound and was fouled. He also hit 40% of his 3s in the game (2-5).

I definitely call into question Katin's shot selection from time to time. After all, he's a so-called "volume scorer." However, to call out his aggressiveness which resulted in him consistently getting to the FT line is ridiculous. He had 10 field goal attempts and scored 16 points. I'd take 1.6 PPS every game. Would you not?

[brewcity77]

Now it obviously isn't going to work against teams like UW, but it was against IUPUI.

If you know it won't work most of the time and is outside the natural flow of the offense, why would you want to encourage that? So hero ball is okay against IUPUI but not against UW? Well if they get used to it working against one team, won't that lead to even more of it the next time out?