Sexual Assault discussion

[Lennys Tap]

TAMU wrote nothing of the sort.

TAMU has expressed this opinion in other discussions.

[jsglow]

TAMU has expressed this opinion in other discussions.

But Lenny, he's really not discussing an opinion but citing statistics and the law.  And there's no doubt that's moved considerably in one direction over the last several years.

[Lennys Tap]

I'm amazed by those stats TAMU.  Let's break this down for a moment. ONLY 23.1% have been kissed or grabbed in the butt against their will but fully 10.8% were 'raped' in the way many of us would define it.  I'm not doubting you but that seems really hard to believe.

I'm not excusing it but I'd think most college girls have experienced some form of unwanted 'assault' where her male friends basically grabbed the jerk guy and dragged him toward the bar door maybe with a shot or two to the jaw on the way.  I'm not saying that's not inappropriate behavior but I'd also say those women probably aren't impacted for life.  Sure they'll remember the incident but almost all will move on pretty easily.  On the other hand the stats would suggest that 40% of that original group had something horribly traumatic happen?  Again, wow.

I'm not doubting that some survey came to the conclusions TAMU said it did but there had to be something wrong with the survey takers - the numbers defy logic.

[GooooMarquette]

Superbar

+1

[Lennys Tap]

But Lenny, he's really not discussing an opinion but citing statistics and the law.  And there's no doubt that's moved considerably in one direction over the last several years.

Glow - TAMU and I have had discussions about what we both think constitutes sexual assault and rape. My recollection is that some of the circumstances he described (two people dating, party to what's likely over the legal limit for both and have consensual sex) as rape or sexual assault don't meet fair standards. I'm unaware that state or federal laws would agree with him but I'm also aware were moving in that direction. I'll even stipulate we NEEDED to move in that direction. Just not as far as he would take us (or if I'm just unaware how far it already has).

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU has expressed this opinion in other discussions.

I apologize if that's how it came off. My intent was to say that once a person is incapacitated (think too drunk to drive a car) they are no longer able to consent to sex.

[brewcity77]

I'm not doubting that some survey came to the conclusions TAMU said it did but there had to be something wrong with the survey takers - the numbers defy logic.

Agreed, I'm shocked they are that low. Maybe those are high school numbers, I have to imagine they are higher in college.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm amazed by those stats TAMU.  Let's break this down for a moment. ONLY 23.1% have been kissed or grabbed in the butt against their will but fully 10.8% were 'raped' in the way many of us would define it.  I'm not doubting you but that seems really hard to believe.

I'm not excusing it but I'd think most college girls have experienced some form of unwanted 'assault' where her male friends basically grabbed the jerk guy and dragged him toward the bar door maybe with a shot or two to the jaw on the way.  I'm not saying that's not inappropriate behavior but I'd also say those women probably aren't impacted for life.  Sure they'll remember the incident but almost all will move on pretty easily.  On the other hand the stats would suggest that 40% of that original group had something horribly traumatic happen?  Again, wow.

Some of what your talking about is what leads me to believe that the 23.1% is actually much lower than the actual number. Many of these more "minor" incidents of sexual assault wouldn't even register for many and would likely go unreported.

Just to clarify my terms some more, nonconsensual penetration doesn't just refer to vaginally or anal presentation. It also includes nonconsensual oral sex (either receiving or giving without consent) or digital penetration.

Also, I can't speak for other universities, but I doubt any university would treat a case of nonconsensual fondling the same as nonconsensual penetration. You are right to say that they two acts have different levels of impact therefore they are treated with different severity.

[brewcity77]

Legally speaking, what if both parties are at the "too drunk to drive" point?

And FWIW, in Wisconsin, that's 0.08 BAC. If you're drunk at 0.08 (that's less than 1 beer per hour) then you have no tolerance whatsoever. Most people I know are fully lucid at that level.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Legally speaking, what if both parties are at the "too drunk to drive" point?

Depends on the state. For universities, they are charged to look for the "aggressor" in the situation. Who was the one pushing things along? Who was the one initiating? The reasoning behind this is that being drunk doesn't excuse you from doing something illegal but it does take away your ability to consent. To give an allegory, a person is at fault if they choose to drive while drunk. However, a person who is hit by a car  while drunk is not responsible for the accident just because they were drunk.

It is theoretically possible for two people to assault each other. I have never seen a case so I can't really speak to how it plays out.

I did have a case once where a young woman brought a charge against a male student when both were drunk. Through the process of investigation it became apparent that she actually was the one who took advantage of him and he ended up bringing counter charges. She was found responsible and he was found not responsible.

[Lennys Tap]

I apologize if that's how it came off. My intent was to say that once a person is incapacitated (think too drunk to drive a car) they are no longer able to consent to sex.

TAMU - you're a really good guy and also a smart guy. I will champion any efforts that educate young men to be more respectful of women. Back in the dark ages when I was a student at MU I was appalled by the attitudes some of my classmates had towards the young women on our campus. I've raised two sons to feel the same way and two daughters to be circumspect about guys who don't.

But I do not (and never will) believe that a man who has consensual sex with a women who may be over .08 blood alcohol limit is by definition a rapist. By your definition it wouldn't surprise me if 60% or even 70% of women who go to college for 4 years have been "rape" victims. But I think your definition defies reason and I think the vast % of the women you consider victims would agree.

[Lennys Tap]

Agreed, I'm shocked they are that low. Maybe those are high school numbers, I have to imagine they are higher in college.

Way low for one, way high for another.

[jsglow]

TAMU - you're a really good guy and also a smart guy. I will champion any efforts that educate young men to be more respectful of women. Back in the dark ages when I was a student at MU I was appalled by the attitudes some of my classmates had towards the young women on our campus. I've raised two sons to feel the same way and two daughters to be circumspect about guys who don't.

But I do not (and never will) believe that a man who has consensual sex with a women who may be over .08 blood alcohol limit is by definition a rapist. By your definition it wouldn't surprise me if 60% or even 70% of women who go to college for 4 years have been "rape" victims. But I think your definition defies reason and I think the vast % of the women you consider victims would agree.

I'm in total agreement with you Lenny.  What I worry about is a legal or Title IX standard that defines it as such.  I'm not sure TAMU is necessarily advocating for anything but if he is advocating for that threshold I would vehemently disagree with him.  I am also convinced that the establishment of any such ridiculously low threshold would be roundly criticized by the vast majority of Americans if they understood the situation.  On the contrary, I think we'd all agree that there is an alcohol induced point where consent cannot be granted.   

[Lennys Tap]

I'm in total agreement with you Lenny.  What I worry about is a legal or Title IX standard that defines it as such.  I'm not sure TAMU is necessarily advocating for anything but if he is advocating for that threshold I would vehemently disagree with him.  I am also convinced that the establishment of any such ridiculously low threshold would be roundly criticized by the vast majority of Americans if they understood the situation.  On the contrary, I think we'd all agree that there is an alcohol induced point where consent cannot be granted.

+1 on all counts.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

And FWIW, in Wisconsin, that's 0.08 BAC. If you're drunk at 0.08 (that's less than 1 beer per hour) then you have no tolerance whatsoever. Most people I know are fully lucid at that level.

Where are you getting your "less than 1 beer per hour" stat? I'll be honest, I'm not an expert in this area. But I used a BAC calculator and it would take me 6 beers in an hour to reach a .08.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm in total agreement with you Lenny.  What I worry about is a legal or Title IX standard that defines it as such.  I'm not sure TAMU is necessarily advocating for anything but if he is advocating for that threshold I would vehemently disagree with him.  I am also convinced that the establishment of any such ridiculously low threshold would be roundly criticized by the vast majority of Americans if they understood the situation.  On the contrary, I think we'd all agree that there is an alcohol induced point where consent cannot be granted.

I appreciate the thoughts Glow but I fully support the idea of the .08 standard. I can produce dozens of studies that show that decision making is severely impaired at a BAC of .08. Predators know this and use this to their advantage. Where I have more issue is how you can actually adjudicate this short of having students breathalyze each other before sex? Right now we train investigators to ask if those present could recall how many drinks a person had or what behavior the person was exhibiting. Because people have different tolerances there will be cases where someone who wasn't at .08 would be considered to be over the line while there are other times where someone who was at .08 would be considered to be under the line. However, its important to note here that .08 isn't some magical number that causes victims to stop being ok with having sex. There will be times when someone has sex at .10 BAC and wakes up the next morning and says "what a great hook up." There will be times when someone has sex at .06 BAC and will wake up and feel like they were taken advantage of. That person will go through the same emotional, psychological, and physical trauma as if they were past the "legal point of sexual assault." So while there has to be some theoretical line that divides drunk sex and sexual assault, its better to just stay as far away from it as possible because you could still put your partner through an awful trauma.

You agree that there is a certain point that someone is too drunk to consent, where would you put it? Since is .08 universally recognized as impaired enough to keep someone from safely driving or legitimately signing a contract, why would it not be too much for someone to consent to sex?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

But I do not (and never will) believe that a man who has consensual sex with a women who may be over .08 blood alcohol limit is by definition a rapist. By your definition it wouldn't surprise me if 60% or even 70% of women who go to college for 4 years have been "rape" victims. But I think your definition defies reason and I think the vast % of the women you consider victims would agree.

Well considering that only only about 80% of college students drink, and only about 50% of those (so 40% total) binge drink, and the numbers are lower for women than they are for men, I would find it highly unlikely that 60-70% of women are victims of drunk sexual assaults. I know I've said that its an issue, but I doubt that 133% of the women who binge drink are getting sexually assaulted. This is part of the problem. We try to paint this picture that college is just one drunken mess from orientation to graduation and if sex happens, that's just part of college. I drank with the best of them at Marquette, I would say I was on the higher end of alcohol consumption, but my friends and I still had enough control to not engage in sex with someone who was incapacitated.

I think there is an underestimation of how drunk someone is at .08. Again, it is illegal to drive a car at this point because of how much you are physically impacted by alcohol. Again, I'm not an expert on BAC, but using a BAC calculator it would take my 210 lb self 6 beers in an hour to get to .08 BAC. My 140 lb fiance' would need four beers in an hour.

[jsglow]

Not sure where the line is TAMU but it ain't there. Have a great evening.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Not sure where the line is TAMU but it ain't there. Have a great evening.

This is the problem. After .08, the legal level of incapacitation, there are no other markers until the person is passed out. I think everyone can agree that if the person is passed out than sex is off the table. But I would think that most would agree that there is a point before that where someone is taking advantage of someone else. I could hear an argument for another standard, but I don't know what other standard there would be between .08 and passed out. It especially gets grey because depending on your tolerance, you could pass out. To me, .08 makes sense because it is a standard. Too drunk to drive a car, too drunk to be held to a contract, and too drunk to consent to sex.

[tower912]

You are doing your BAC calculation incorrectly.   BC77 is accurate.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You are doing your BAC calculation incorrectly.   BC77 is accurate.

Like I said, I'm not an expert. I used an online BAC calculator that I found. According to BC77 I would only need to drink one beer in an hour to reach a .08 BAC? I'm sorry that doesn't seem correct. Driving after one beer is a DUI? I would appreciate if you could point me to a place where I can get a better idea of BAC.

[mu03eng]

This is the problem. After .08, the legal level of incapacitation, there are no other markers until the person is passed out. I think everyone can agree that if the person is passed out than sex is off the table. But I would think that most would agree that there is a point before that where someone is taking advantage of someone else. I could hear an argument for another standard, but I don't know what other standard there would be between .08 and passed out. It especially gets grey because depending on your tolerance, you could pass out. To me, .08 makes sense because it is a standard. Too drunk to drive a car, too drunk to be held to a contract, and too drunk to consent to sex.

I get where you are coming from and I think there is something to be said for all individuals (regardless of gender) having to really think about whether they and the other person(s) are in the right frame of mind to consent. Bottom line, college students should be really really really sure sex is a good idea before engaging in it.

However, the threshold you've espoused is very problematic. First, taking the drunk driving analogy (perhaps too far), if two drunk drivers in separate cars get in a car accident with just the two of them.....both are going to jail, regardless of fault. Additionally, at least the first time you are caught drunk driving it is an ordinance violation, not a felony. So by your standard, if both parties are over the 0.08 BAC they should both be charged as neither party could consent.

Bottom line, I don't think we can apply some level of intoxication standard or calculated metric. Even with a line like 0.08 there's timing at work....you could be below the limit during the act but because you took a drink right before or during would be over the limit by the end or just after, does that count? How do you determine what the BAC was at the time that consent was asked for and received? I think this is always going to be a judgement call and we need to treat it as such from a legal perspective.

[warriorchick]

Like I said, I'm not an expert. I used an online BAC calculator that I found. According to BC77 I would only need to drink one beer in an hour to reach a .08 BAC? I'm sorry that doesn't seem correct. Driving after one beer is a DUI? I would appreciate if you could point me to a place where I can get a better idea of BAC.

I have always heard that a good rule of thumb is to limit yourself to one beer per hour to avoid going over .08.  And I am sure it was a very generic, conservative rule - covering 100-pound women as well as 300-pound guys.  Everyone needs to know their own limits.  There are a lot of factors involved in how quickly you get hammered besides the rate at which you imbibe - weight, gender, carbonation, the amount of food in your stomach....

[mu03eng]

Like I said, I'm not an expert. I used an online BAC calculator that I found. According to BC77 I would only need to drink one beer in an hour to reach a .08 BAC? I'm sorry that doesn't seem correct. Driving after one beer is a DUI? I would appreciate if you could point me to a place where I can get a better idea of BAC.

The body can absorb the equivalent of one drink per hour. A drink is defined as a 1.5oz shot of 40 proof liquor or a 12oz beer at 5% ABV. For context Miller Lite has an ABV of 4.2%, High Life 4.8% and Blue Moon is 5.4%

So lets assume you are a man who is 200lbs. you would be over the legal limit if you consume 3 Blue Moons in an hour, likely over if you have 3 High Lifes in an hour and just under if you have 3 Miller Lites in an hour. Here's where the BAC bites you, if you have 5 Miller Lites in 2 hours, you're effectively over the legal limit as a 200lb man because you can only eliminate a single beer per hour.

Same scenario, if you are a 140 lb woman it would only take 2 Blue Moons to put you over the limit(it would take 3 High Life), especially in Wisconsin and at college is almost nothing compared to a typical night out drinking.



Additionally, tolerance is how you mentally "resist" or "adapt" to effects of alcholol, but it doesn't impact the BAC of the individual. If you had twins, one who drank all the time and one who never drank, and gave both of them 3 Blue Moons, they would both be around a BAC of .08 but the impact to them mentally (coordination, judgement, etc) would be vastly different.

[Lennys Tap]

Well considering that only only about 80% of college students drink, and only about 50% of those (so 40% total) binge drink, and the numbers are lower for women than they are for men, I would find it highly unlikely that 60-70% of women are victims of drunk sexual assaults. I know I've said that its an issue, but I doubt that 133% of the women who binge drink are getting sexually assaulted. This is part of the problem. We try to paint this picture that college is just one drunken mess from orientation to graduation and if sex happens, that's just part of college. I drank with the best of them at Marquette, I would say I was on the higher end of alcohol consumption, but my friends and I still had enough control to not engage in sex with someone who was incapacitated.

I think there is an underestimation of how drunk someone is at .08. Again, it is illegal to drive a car at this point because of how much you are physically impacted by alcohol. Again, I'm not an expert on BAC, but using a BAC calculator it would take my 210 lb self 6 beers in an hour to get to .08 BAC. My 140 lb fiance' would need four beers in an hour.

Are you really suggesting that for a college woman (or man) to occasionally (or even regularly) hit .08 they have to be binge drinkers? I think there's something wrong with your calculations.