Sexual Assault discussion

[mu03eng]

We need wiki pages on all these incidents so we can keep the record straight!

[Dawson Rental]

Deane went to the NIT with O'Nell's holdovers. In year 2, with his very own Aaron Hutchins leading the way, he went to the NCAAs.

O'Neill recruited Hutchins, he just never coached him.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

When this was last being argued about on this forum I posted this extremely well researched article by Emily Yoffe The College Rape Overcorrection on Slate that states:
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/12/college_rape_campus_sexual_assault_is_a_serious_problem_but_the_efforts.html

I’ve read through the court filings and investigative reports of a number of these cases, and it’s clear to me that many of the accused are indeed being treated unfairly. Government officials and campus administrators are attempting to legislate the bedroom behavior of students with rules and requirements that would be comic if their effects weren’t frequently so tragic. The legal filings in the cases brought by young men accused of sexual violence often begin like a script for a college sex farce but end with the protagonist finding himself in a Soviet-style show trial. Or, as in the case of Drew Sterrett, punished with no trial at all.

And re: the statistics that have been thrown about here:
But the severe new policies championed by the White House, the Department of Education, and members of Congress are responding to the idea that colleges are in the grips of an epidemic—and the studies suggesting this epidemic don’t hold up to scrutiny. Bad policy is being made on the back of problematic research, and will continue to be unless we bring some healthy skepticism to the hard work of putting a number on the prevalence of campus rape.

By all means read the whole thing - it has the usual caveats that one rape is of course too many and that rape is a serious issue on campuses but that the statistics to back up terrible policies which do NOT have reasonable due process protections for the accused are severely flawed.

IIRC TAMU specifically stated he thought due process for the accused was less important than supporting the accuser.  The idea that innocent til proven guilty is a negotiable stance is horrific to me and should be to anyone who has a decent working knowledge of history but that is just my opinion feel free to disagree.

I've had this article forwarded to me many times. So I have a pretty standardized response by now.

1. Yes. Due process violations happen. They happen in a VAST VAST VAST minority of cases. Also, the vast majority of lawsuits brought by accused students are either settled out of court or are won by the university.

2. It is hilarious that an author who criticizes studies for using too small of sample sizes, tries to use one example of a due process violation to apply to all cases.

3. With the example she gave, it certainly seems like due process was violated, but keep in mind that we have only heard the accused's side of the story.

4. The author criticizes the University of Michigan for moving the individual out of the dorm but that is standard procedure. It is common in university cases and legal cases for some sort of protection order to be placed on the accuser. This is not a violation of due process, it goes through a similar level of scrutiny as a temporary order of protection does.

5. The author claims that the woman was drunk but not incapacitated, something that short of a breathalyzer test is impossible to say.

6. The author uses the term rape and sexual assault interchangeably when they are two separate things. She also uses them conveniently to try to discredit some of the studies. For example, she quotes rape statistics when rape is the most uncommon form of sexual assault in an attempt to make the numbers appear lower. The 1 in 5 and 1 in 4 statistics include sexual assaults and attempted sexual assualts that don't fit the category of rape.

7. The study she uses to claim that non-college students are more likely to be raped than college students only looked at rapes reported to the police. The reporting rate is higher off college campuses than it is on college campuses. Also, rapes that are occur off campus tend to be more violent and forceful whereas colleges have an epidemic of coercive assaults and assaults that use alcohol.

8. The author is also known for another article where she suggested that if women don't want to be raped than they shouldn't get drunk. A classic victim blaming argument.

9. She claims to have read through many court documents and university policies and found rampant issues with due process, but outside of the one case at Michigan she never details what those issues are.

10. She claims that the Dear Colleague Letter lowered the standard of proof for these cases. That is a purposefully misleading statement. A vast majority of universities already used this standard. And this standard is not just for sexual assault cases, it is for all cases. The author attempts to make it seem like sexual assault gets special treatment when it does not. Universities do not have the power to imprison or execute so a lesser standard of proof is warranted and necessary.

11. She claims that the student from Michigan can't make it as a transfer student because of the sexual assault on his record. While his record will show that he was suspended, it would not show what for. If it did, he would be suing them over a FERPA violation.

12. I do agree that it is a problem that while victims' advocates are required, accused advocates are not. That is something that should be fixed

13. The main issue that this author and many have around this topic is that consent is required for sexual activity. They make it out to be this huge ordeal that requires mind reading powers. Really all universities require is that some effort is made to check in with your partner to ensure that the sexual activity is wanted and that you respect the answer that is given. The correct response for someone saying no is "alright." Not "come on" "what about now" or asking over and over again. The old system of "just go for it but stop if they say no" doesn't work for a multitude of reasons. The most egregious one being that it supports the idea that we all have a right to each other's bodies, its on the victim to say no, not on the initiator to ask.

14. The author acts as if sexual assault is some special crime that for some reason universities try to adjudciate when they shouldn't. The reality is that universities hear all crimes that happen on their campuses. If a murder occurs on campus, the university will investigate and hear the case. The author is the one trying to make sexual assault special where it is the only crime that universities can't investigate. Also, the university investigating does not mean that the police aren't also investigating. Every on campus report is forwarded onto the police so they can do their own investigation.

15. I can't speak for other schools, but as someone who does this work every day, I received extensive training on how to investigate and hear cases of sexual assault.

16. She criticizes the 1 in 5 statistic, with good reason, but there are more recent studies that were done more thoroughly that support that number. Well not 1 in 5 exactly but in the 18-22% ballpark.

17. The reality is, while I love our judicial system, it fails us on sexual assault. The most recent numbers suggest that 97% of those who commit sexual assault never spend a day in jail. That means if someone you care about is sexually assaulted, 97 times out of 100 their attacker will never see the inside of a cell. The reason being is that sexual assault is a private crime, that usually happens behind closed doors with no witnesses. How can you convince 12 peers beyond a reasonable doubt that an assault occurred? I don't know how to fix it. But I am thankful every day that universities have a greater ability to address the problem to make our campuses safer.

[brewcity77]

Even by Scoop standards, this is getting pretty extreme...

[Bocephys]

Even by Scoop standards, this is getting pretty extreme...

Ugh, 2 miles?  But I have to pee nowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

[tower912]

Even by Scoop standards, this is getting pretty extreme...

What kind of bathrooms are those? 

[jsglow]

This is such great stuff. Sure is nice to see a difficult topic discussed intelligently and mostly in a civil tone here on Scoop.

[muwarrior69]

I've had this article forwarded to me many times. So I have a pretty standardized response by now.

1. Yes. Due process violations happen. They happen in a VAST VAST VAST minority of cases. Also, the vast majority of lawsuits brought by accused students are either settled out of court or are won by the university.

2. It is hilarious that an author who criticizes studies for using too small of sample sizes, tries to use one example of a due process violation to apply to all cases.

3. With the example she gave, it certainly seems like due process was violated, but keep in mind that we have only heard the accused's side of the story.

4. The author criticizes the University of Michigan for moving the individual out of the dorm but that is standard procedure. It is common in university cases and legal cases for some sort of protection order to be placed on the accuser. This is not a violation of due process, it goes through a similar level of scrutiny as a temporary order of protection does.

5. The author claims that the woman was drunk but not incapacitated, something that short of a breathalyzer test is impossible to say.

6. The author uses the term rape and sexual assault interchangeably when they are two separate things. She also uses them conveniently to try to discredit some of the studies. For example, she quotes rape statistics when rape is the most uncommon form of sexual assault in an attempt to make the numbers appear lower. The 1 in 5 and 1 in 4 statistics include sexual assaults and attempted sexual assualts that don't fit the category of rape.

7. The study she uses to claim that non-college students are more likely to be raped than college students only looked at rapes reported to the police. The reporting rate is higher off college campuses than it is on college campuses. Also, rapes that are occur off campus tend to be more violent and forceful whereas colleges have an epidemic of coercive assaults and assaults that use alcohol.

8. The author is also known for another article where she suggested that if women don't want to be raped than they shouldn't get drunk. A classic victim blaming argument.

9. She claims to have read through many court documents and university policies and found rampant issues with due process, but outside of the one case at Michigan she never details what those issues are.

10. She claims that the Dear Colleague Letter lowered the standard of proof for these cases. That is a purposefully misleading statement. A vast majority of universities already used this standard. And this standard is not just for sexual assault cases, it is for all cases. The author attempts to make it seem like sexual assault gets special treatment when it does not. Universities do not have the power to imprison or execute so a lesser standard of proof is warranted and necessary.

11. She claims that the student from Michigan can't make it as a transfer student because of the sexual assault on his record. While his record will show that he was suspended, it would not show what for. If it did, he would be suing them over a FERPA violation.

12. I do agree that it is a problem that while victims' advocates are required, accused advocates are not. That is something that should be fixed

13. The main issue that this author and many have around this topic is that consent is required for sexual activity. They make it out to be this huge ordeal that requires mind reading powers. Really all universities require is that some effort is made to check in with your partner to ensure that the sexual activity is wanted and that you respect the answer that is given. The correct response for someone saying no is "alright." Not "come on" "what about now" or asking over and over again. The old system of "just go for it but stop if they say no" doesn't work for a multitude of reasons. The most egregious one being that it supports the idea that we all have a right to each other's bodies, its on the victim to say no, not on the initiator to ask.

14. The author acts as if sexual assault is some special crime that for some reason universities try to adjudciate when they shouldn't. The reality is that universities hear all crimes that happen on their campuses. If a murder occurs on campus, the university will investigate and hear the case. The author is the one trying to make sexual assault special where it is the only crime that universities can't investigate. Also, the university investigating does not mean that the police aren't also investigating. Every on campus report is forwarded onto the police so they can do their own investigation.

15. I can't speak for other schools, but as someone who does this work every day, I received extensive training on how to investigate and hear cases of sexual assault.

16. She criticizes the 1 in 5 statistic, with good reason, but there are more recent studies that were done more thoroughly that support that number. Well not 1 in 5 exactly but in the 18-22% ballpark.

17. The reality is, while I love our judicial system, it fails us on sexual assault. The most recent numbers suggest that 97% of those who commit sexual assault never spend a day in jail. That means if someone you care about is sexually assaulted, 97 times out of 100 their attacker will never see the inside of a cell. The reason being is that sexual assault is a private crime, that usually happens behind closed doors with no witnesses. How can you convince 12 peers beyond a reasonable doubt that an assault occurred? I don't know how to fix it. But I am thankful every day that universities have a greater ability to address the problem to make our campuses safer.

Maybe it's time to go back to all male and female institutions and this "crisis" would be totally avoidable. From where I sit it seems the Universities are not interested in the truth, just covering their backside against any Title IX violations.

[warriorchick]

Serious question, TAMU:  What exactly is considered "sexual assault" in this context?

With some of the definitons I have heard, 1 in 5 seems awfully low.

[GGGG]

Maybe it's time to go back to all male and female institutions and this "crisis" would be totally avoidable. From where I sit it seems the Universities are not interested in the truth, just covering their backside against any Title IX violations.

Uh...sure.

[muwarrior69]

Uh...sure.

Any better ideas?

[GGGG]

Any better ideas?

Yeah.  Institutions need to devote resources to adequately training Title IX officers and conducting Title IX investigations.  Because even single sex schools have Title IX issues.

[Dr. Blackheart]

That's what happens when you still had a 'must be a Jebbie' clause.  Pilarz was a disaster.  Heard numerous stories after he was gone.

As to Cottinghan, everything mentioned here was a factor.  There were also other screw ups not mentioned. I liked Steve a great deal.  But his departure was more than simply him being a 'fall guy'.

A "fall guy" is often tinged, not innocent, but not the most guilty. Clearly, he took a public bullet for the university and was not without blame. Many others took it quietly, under the radar, with severance, with a nice landing, or nicely reassigned.

Interesting that Buzz got Cottingham his next and current job.

As for Pilarz, there were many stories when he was here. Those were complex times.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Buzz and a member of the staff got involved in different ways based on everything I was told.

And that staff member and the accused went "away"...

[Lennys Tap]

I've had this article forwarded to me many times. So I have a pretty standardized response by now.

1. Yes. Due process violations happen. They happen in a VAST VAST VAST minority of cases. Also, the vast majority of lawsuits brought by accused students are either settled out of court or are won by the university.

2. It is hilarious that an author who criticizes studies for using too small of sample sizes, tries to use one example of a due process violation to apply to all cases.

3. With the example she gave, it certainly seems like due process was violated, but keep in mind that we have only heard the accused's side of the story.

4. The author criticizes the University of Michigan for moving the individual out of the dorm but that is standard procedure. It is common in university cases and legal cases for some sort of protection order to be placed on the accuser. This is not a violation of due process, it goes through a similar level of scrutiny as a temporary order of protection does.

5. The author claims that the woman was drunk but not incapacitated, something that short of a breathalyzer test is impossible to say.

6. The author uses the term rape and sexual assault interchangeably when they are two separate things. She also uses them conveniently to try to discredit some of the studies. For example, she quotes rape statistics when rape is the most uncommon form of sexual assault in an attempt to make the numbers appear lower. The 1 in 5 and 1 in 4 statistics include sexual assaults and attempted sexual assualts that don't fit the category of rape.

7. The study she uses to claim that non-college students are more likely to be raped than college students only looked at rapes reported to the police. The reporting rate is higher off college campuses than it is on college campuses. Also, rapes that are occur off campus tend to be more violent and forceful whereas colleges have an epidemic of coercive assaults and assaults that use alcohol.

8. The author is also known for another article where she suggested that if women don't want to be raped than they shouldn't get drunk. A classic victim blaming argument.

9. She claims to have read through many court documents and university policies and found rampant issues with due process, but outside of the one case at Michigan she never details what those issues are.

10. She claims that the Dear Colleague Letter lowered the standard of proof for these cases. That is a purposefully misleading statement. A vast majority of universities already used this standard. And this standard is not just for sexual assault cases, it is for all cases. The author attempts to make it seem like sexual assault gets special treatment when it does not. Universities do not have the power to imprison or execute so a lesser standard of proof is warranted and necessary.

11. She claims that the student from Michigan can't make it as a transfer student because of the sexual assault on his record. While his record will show that he was suspended, it would not show what for. If it did, he would be suing them over a FERPA violation.

12. I do agree that it is a problem that while victims' advocates are required, accused advocates are not. That is something that should be fixed

13. The main issue that this author and many have around this topic is that consent is required for sexual activity. They make it out to be this huge ordeal that requires mind reading powers. Really all universities require is that some effort is made to check in with your partner to ensure that the sexual activity is wanted and that you respect the answer that is given. The correct response for someone saying no is "alright." Not "come on" "what about now" or asking over and over again. The old system of "just go for it but stop if they say no" doesn't work for a multitude of reasons. The most egregious one being that it supports the idea that we all have a right to each other's bodies, its on the victim to say no, not on the initiator to ask.

14. The author acts as if sexual assault is some special crime that for some reason universities try to adjudciate when they shouldn't. The reality is that universities hear all crimes that happen on their campuses. If a murder occurs on campus, the university will investigate and hear the case. The author is the one trying to make sexual assault special where it is the only crime that universities can't investigate. Also, the university investigating does not mean that the police aren't also investigating. Every on campus report is forwarded onto the police so they can do their own investigation.

15. I can't speak for other schools, but as someone who does this work every day, I received extensive training on how to investigate and hear cases of sexual assault.

16. She criticizes the 1 in 5 statistic, with good reason, but there are more recent studies that were done more thoroughly that support that number. Well not 1 in 5 exactly but in the 18-22% ballpark.

17. The reality is, while I love our judicial system, it fails us on sexual assault. The most recent numbers suggest that 97% of those who commit sexual assault never spend a day in jail. That means if someone you care about is sexually assaulted, 97 times out of 100 their attacker will never see the inside of a cell. The reason being is that sexual assault is a private crime, that usually happens behind closed doors with no witnesses. How can you convince 12 peers beyond a reasonable doubt that an assault occurred? I don't know how to fix it. But I am thankful every day that universities have a greater ability to address the problem to make our campuses safer.

You believe that a woman who goes on a date, willingly consumes alcohol on that date and willingly has sex with her date but later regrets her behavior has been raped. IMO (and I absolutely admit it's an opinion) that's a fringe view, although if you are to be believed it's mainstream on campuses. I wouldn't expect someone with those preconceptions to think much of an article that looks at the problem from a different perspective.

[warriorchick]

You believe that a woman who goes on a date, willingly consumes alcohol on that date and willingly has sex with her date but later regrets her behavior has been raped. IMO (and I absolutely admit it's an opinion) that's a fringe view, although if you are to be believed it's mainstream on campuses. I wouldn't expect someone with those preconceptions to think much of an article that looks at the problem from a different perspective.

I bet most of you don't know that in Wisconsin, alcohol is considered a date rape drug. So right or wrong, if you get a girl liquored up and have sex with her, you are taking your chances.  It's something they cover during freshman orientation at MU.

[fjm]

I bet most of you don't know that in Wisconsin, alcohol is considered a date rape drug. So right or wrong, if you get a girl liquored up and have sex with her, you are taking your chances.  It's something they cover during freshman orientation at MU.

Whoa. Really?
I came here to ask how this thread is not locked yet... and instead unlearned something!


But seriously this is WAAAAY off track.

[Pakuni]

You believe that a woman who goes on a date, willingly consumes alcohol on that date and willingly has sex with her date but later regrets her behavior has been raped. IMO (and I absolutely admit it's an opinion) that's a fringe view, although if you are to be believed it's mainstream on campuses. I wouldn't expect someone with those preconceptions to think much of an article that looks at the problem from a different perspective.

TAMU wrote nothing of the sort.

[4everwarriors]

Any better ideas?

Chastity belts, hey?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Maybe it's time to go back to all male and female institutions and this "crisis" would be totally avoidable. From where I sit it seems the Universities are not interested in the truth, just covering their backside against any Title IX violations.

I'm not sure why crisis is in "". While theoretically separating men and women into different universities would reduce instances of sexual violence, it goes against one of the main purposes of a college education, preparing people for the real world. Men and women should be able to interact with each other without fear of violence.

Also, sexual assault is not just a male on female crime. It can happen between two men, two women, or a woman can assault a man.

Won't argue that many universities are concerned with covering their ass. I would say that usually helps the accused rather than the accuser. A lot of education that would be great for students gets put on the wayside because we have to check the boxes given to us by Title IX. Also, there are a lot more restrictions on due process for the accused than the accuser. Lawsuits from the accused are a lot more expensive than lawsuits from the accuser.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Serious question, TAMU:  What exactly is considered "sexual assault" in this context?

With some of the definitons I have heard, 1 in 5 seems awfully low.

Depends on the survey. The one I was referring to used the definition of "nonconsensual sexual contact by physical force, threats of physical force, or incapacitation." Sexual contact would include penetration, fondling, kissing, etc. The survey determined that 23.1% of students experienced some form of nonconsensual sexual contact. 10.8% of students experienced non-consensual penetration specifically.

[naginiF]

I bet most of you don't know that in Wisconsin, alcohol is considered a date rape drug. So right or wrong, if you get a girl liquored up and have sex with her, you are taking your chances.  It's something they cover during freshman orientation at MU.

Didn't know and thank you.

Had a conversation the other night with other parents of boys about the difficulty of raising them into respectable/good/chivalrous men and specifically if it's more difficult today versus 40 years ago.  There wasn't a conclusion but we all thought our boys would be aware of their surroundings and impacts than their predecessors.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You believe that a woman who goes on a date, willingly consumes alcohol on that date and willingly has sex with her date but later regrets her behavior has been raped. IMO (and I absolutely admit it's an opinion) that's a fringe view, although if you are to be believed it's mainstream on campuses. I wouldn't expect someone with those preconceptions to think much of an article that looks at the problem from a different perspective.

Couple of problems with this statement.

First, why did you bring up going on a date and "willingly consuming alcohol"? I'm sure this wasn't your intent, but it seems like you are implying that going on a date and consuming alcohol means that sex is owed or expected. Nothing about going on a date or drinking grants consent to someone else for sex.

Second, I never said anything of the sort. Regret has nothing to do with anything. If a person has sex with someone else while they are incapacitated from alcohol than it is rape. A person can no longer consent to sex after consuming a certain amount of alcohol. Even if the drunk person is throwing themselves at someone, that person has a legal responsibility (in some states) and university responsibility (at all universities that accept federal funding) to not engage in any sort of sexual activity with the incapacitated individual.

Third, while most assaults are male on female, I feel it is necessary to mention that assaults can occur between two men, two women, or a woman on a man.

Fourth, this is not an opinion. It is a federal regulation. In some states it is law. In the near future, it will hopefully be law in all states. A lot of progress has been made the last few years.

As Chick said, alcohol is considered a date rape drug in Wisconsin. I know in the past it was considered normal and acceptable for men and women to get good and liquored up and then have sex. Those days are fortunately ending. To be clear, drunk sex can still happen. You can go out with a friend and have a few drinks, but if the person is to the point of intoxication, then no sex can occur.

[jsglow]

I'm amazed by those stats TAMU.  Let's break this down for a moment. ONLY 23.1% have been kissed or grabbed in the butt against their will but fully 10.8% were 'raped' in the way many of us would define it.  I'm not doubting you but that seems really hard to believe.

I'm not excusing it but I'd think most college girls have experienced some form of unwanted 'assault' where her male friends basically grabbed the jerk guy and dragged him toward the bar door maybe with a shot or two to the jaw on the way.  I'm not saying that's not inappropriate behavior but I'd also say those women probably aren't impacted for life.  Sure they'll remember the incident but almost all will move on pretty easily.  On the other hand the stats would suggest that 40% of that original group had something horribly traumatic happen?  Again, wow.   

[cheebs09]

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