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Author Topic: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End  (Read 17354 times)

MarquetteDano

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2016, 09:23:03 AM »
If you do not care for the rules surrounding college athletics, you are free to not participate.

Yup.  As I have brought up here before my cousins were both excellent at baseball.  One decided on the minor leagues and signed $100k signing bonus plus was paid to play minor league baseball.  Another decided to play for Northwestern.

The one who played in the minor leagues wishes we would have went to University.  The one who went to Northwestern was happy with his decision.  But some around here who make you believe that these college athletes are maltreated and are basically slave labor.

For the record,  I am okay with some sort of stipend for higher revenue sports.  But other than that,  I think it is a pretty good deal for these athletes.  And for those who think it is a bad deal,  they are feel to play sports elsewhere or get a real job like the rest of us.

The Equalizer

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2016, 09:29:49 AM »
Exactly.

Everybody has freedom and rights and compensation ... except the "student/athletes" ... the very people who make the billion$ possible.


As if a $200K education is somehow irrelevant. Not to mention the access to coaches, trainers, tutors, dietitians, facilities, networking with influential alums, etc.

And it's not even correct to suggest that the student/athletes have no rights and freedom. If they had no rights, they would not be able to transfer at all. Under any circumstances. Ever. 

Under the current rules, they HAVE transfer rights.  They CAN transfer if they wish, with the caveat being that they sit out a year.  AND they're awarded with an extra $50,000 in scholarship funds to do so.  So its not even fair to suggest that they're being penalized for transferring. 


dgies9156

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2016, 09:54:11 AM »
I hope they change the rules to the following:

1) No in-season transfers can play in the same season. Ever.

2) Transfers would be allowed with immediate eligibility if:
    a) The player obtains a formal release from the university from where he is transferring.
    b) The coach who recruited him leaves or is fired.
    c) The school is placed on NCAA probation, provided the student did not violate NCAA rules.

3) In the event that the student-athlete does not obtain a release subject to 2(a) and the provisions of 2(b) or 2(c) are not met, the player would be prohibited from being on the active roster of another member school for a period of one year from the date of a formal withdrawal from the school where the student athlete is transferring from.

We all make mistakes and we all deserve to rectify them. If a student makes a mistake and wishes to transfer, provision 2(a) should facilitate the move and allow the coach some leeway in  ensuring that, for example, a North Carolina player does not end up at Duke -- or one of our guys ends up at Depaul or Wisconsin.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 09:43:37 AM by dgies9156 »

MarquetteDano

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2016, 10:25:04 AM »
I hope they change the rules to the following:

1) No in-season transfers can play in the same season. Ever.

2) Transfers would be allowed with immediate eligibility if:
    a) The player obtains a formal release from the university from where he is transferring.
    b) The coach who recruited him leaves or is fired.
    c) The school is placed on NCAA probation, provided the student did not violate NCAA rules.

3) In the event that the student-athlete does not obtain a release subject to 2(a) and the provisions of 2(b) or 2(c) are not met, the player would be prohibited from being on the active roster of another member school for a period of one year from the date of a formal withdrawal from the school where the student athlete si transferring from.

We all make mistakes and we all deserve to rectify them. If a student makes a mistake and wishes to transfer, provision 2(a) should facilitate the move and allow the coach some leeway in  ensuring that, for example, a North Carolina player does not end up at Duke -- or one of our guys ends up at Depaul or Wisconsin.

This sounds very fair to me.

forgetful

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2016, 11:24:19 AM »
I hope they change the rules to the following:

1) No in-season transfers can play in the same season. Ever.

2) Transfers would be allowed with immediate eligibility if:
    a) The player obtains a formal release from the university from where he is transferring.
    b) The coach who recruited him leaves or is fired.
    c) The school is placed on NCAA probation, provided the student did not violate NCAA rules.

3) In the event that the student-athlete does not obtain a release subject to 2(a) and the provisions of 2(b) or 2(c) are not met, the player would be prohibited from being on the active roster of another member school for a period of one year from the date of a formal withdrawal from the school where the student athlete si transferring from.

We all make mistakes and we all deserve to rectify them. If a student makes a mistake and wishes to transfer, provision 2(a) should facilitate the move and allow the coach some leeway in  ensuring that, for example, a North Carolina player does not end up at Duke -- or one of our guys ends up at Depaul or Wisconsin.

Its tough to find a reason to disagree with this.  Seems very fair.

Billy Hoyle

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2016, 11:39:31 AM »
I hope they change the rules to the following:

1) No in-season transfers can play in the same season. Ever.

2) Transfers would be allowed with immediate eligibility if:
    a) The player obtains a formal release from the university from where he is transferring.
    b) The coach who recruited him leaves or is fired.
    c) The school is placed on NCAA probation, provided the student did not violate NCAA rules.

3) In the event that the student-athlete does not obtain a release subject to 2(a) and the provisions of 2(b) or 2(c) are not met, the player would be prohibited from being on the active roster of another member school for a period of one year from the date of a formal withdrawal from the school where the student athlete si transferring from.

We all make mistakes and we all deserve to rectify them. If a student makes a mistake and wishes to transfer, provision 2(a) should facilitate the move and allow the coach some leeway in  ensuring that, for example, a North Carolina player does not end up at Duke -- or one of our guys ends up at Depaul or Wisconsin.

C is already a rule in the case of a post season ban being imposed.

There was an exception to allow immediate eligibility for run offs but that was caught up in the reform of immediate eligibility waiver requests for things like mom is sick and I need to go closer to home, take care of her and play basketball. Including run offs was unintentional but a wrong decision as the NCAA eliminated all waivers.

There is also immediate eligibility in cases of extreme circumstances, such as being the victim of physical abuse by a coach or other student on campus.
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Marcus92

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2016, 01:30:01 PM »
I question whether changing the rule would have much effect at all.

It's not as though the prospect of sitting out is keeping anyone from transferring right now. Players leave after their first semester or first season all the time. And the academics rationale is so flimsy I'm not sure how anyone buys it.

The NCAA has a lot bigger issues to deal with than this one.
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rocky_warrior

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2016, 02:36:20 AM »
Similarly, professors, grad students, students sign away their technology ...They also sign away billions. 

Good point.  But not really.  But good point.  If an idea is really worth a lot of money, usually the person/people that thought of it will benefit more the the university.  Not similar to most professors, and most athletes.  But if you're a really good athlete, you'll come out ahead of most college athletes. So good point, I guess.

jsglow

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2016, 10:25:34 AM »
I hope they change the rules to the following:

1) No in-season transfers can play in the same season. Ever.

2) Transfers would be allowed with immediate eligibility if:
    a) The player obtains a formal release from the university from where he is transferring.
    b) The coach who recruited him leaves or is fired.
    c) The school is placed on NCAA probation, provided the student did not violate NCAA rules.

3) In the event that the student-athlete does not obtain a release subject to 2(a) and the provisions of 2(b) or 2(c) are not met, the player would be prohibited from being on the active roster of another member school for a period of one year from the date of a formal withdrawal from the school where the student athlete is transferring from.

We all make mistakes and we all deserve to rectify them. If a student makes a mistake and wishes to transfer, provision 2(a) should facilitate the move and allow the coach some leeway in  ensuring that, for example, a North Carolina player does not end up at Duke -- or one of our guys ends up at Depaul or Wisconsin.

I think this is quite good.  Perhaps there is some kind of interesting wrinkle if a coach offers that 'next scholarship year' to the player in question and he turns it down.  Maybe unfettered transfer provisions kick in if the player has been 'released'.  I'll use Wally's case as an example and assume he couldn't utilize the graduate transfer option.  In my example, Wally would have had his scholarship terminated and be free to sign anywhere without penalty or delay.  Maybe intra-conference limitations might still apply.  Not sure on that.

StillAWarrior

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2016, 10:52:03 AM »
Yup.  As I have brought up here before my cousins were both excellent at baseball.  One decided on the minor leagues and signed $100k signing bonus plus was paid to play minor league baseball.  Another decided to play for Northwestern.

The one who played in the minor leagues wishes we would have went to University.  The one who went to Northwestern was happy with his decision.  But some around here who make you believe that these college athletes are maltreated and are basically slave labor.

For the record,  I am okay with some sort of stipend for higher revenue sports.  But other than that,  I think it is a pretty good deal for these athletes.  And for those who think it is a bad deal,  they are feel to play sports elsewhere or get a real job like the rest of us.

Would this pass Title IX scrutiny?  Presumably, that would mean payments to football and men's basketball that would not be available to any female athletes.
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StillAWarrior

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2016, 10:57:18 AM »
As if a $200K education is somehow irrelevant. Not to mention the access to coaches, trainers, tutors, dietitians, facilities, networking with influential alums, etc.


Amen.  I've gotta admit that having a child commit to being exploited by a school with an all-in ticket price of $60k+ per year was a happy day at our house.  I'm just anxious to get ink on the LOI in another couple months.

Granted, my opinion may change at some point in the next four or five years.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 10:59:04 AM by StillAWarrior »
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MarquetteDano

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2016, 10:59:45 AM »
Would this pass Title IX scrutiny?  Presumably, that would mean payments to football and men's basketball that would not be available to any female athletes.

I will let the NCAA reg experts answer that one.  The hope is they would find away around Title IX but you make a good point.

GGGG

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2016, 11:32:08 AM »
I will let the NCAA reg experts answer that one.  The hope is they would find away around Title IX but you make a good point.


Why do you want to "find away around Title IX?"  That would be terrible.

Just make the value of scholarships total cost of attendance and use them like you do now.  Scholarships that are split in other sports would become more valuable in total.  Completely compliant with Title IX as long as the other requirements are met.

Benny B

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2016, 11:50:04 AM »
Would this pass Title IX scrutiny?  Presumably, that would mean payments to football and men's basketball that would not be available to any female athletes.

In a nutshell... all resources/benefits must be allocated equally amongst men's and women's sports.  If you provide 50 FTE scholarships in football, you must provide 50 FTE scholarships in women's sports (whether that's 50 full rides, 100 half-rides, 20 full and 60 half, etc.)

Since stipend rules are not on the NCAA's books currently, there are no cut and dry rules or procedures... but the general consensus - to comply with Title IX - is that for every dollar of stipend provided to those participating in men's sports, one dollar of stipend must be provided to those participating in women's sports.  What's not clear - and this is part the NCAA needs to figure out before any visions of stipends becomes a reality - is whether those dollars need to be allocated equitably within the genders...

For example: Hypothetically, let's say that MU gives men's basketball $10,000 per player (x15) while all of the other men's sports get nothing.  Women's volleyball (x16) and La Crosse (x34) get $3,000 per player and all of the other women's sports get nothing.  Although the men's players get paid more than the women's players - not to mention you've clearly created inequities between the various sports - technically, this would NOT be a Title IX violation because men's and women's sports each received a collective $150,000.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

MU82

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2016, 10:06:20 PM »

Amen.  I've gotta admit that having a child commit to being exploited by a school with an all-in ticket price of $60k+ per year was a happy day at our house.  I'm just anxious to get ink on the LOI in another couple months.

Granted, my opinion may change at some point in the next four or five years.

First, congratulations. That is really cool for you and your kid.

Second, what if your child were a violin prodigy who earned a free ride to Johns Hopkins?

I'm pretty sure there are no regs in place that would keep your child from leaving Johns Hopkins after one year for Julliard, getting a full ride at his/her new school and being eligible immediately to play the violin at Julliard events.

We sometimes get caught up in the numbers, also. The Wyoming kid who gets a $4,600/year free ride at his in-state university is every bit as "trapped" by the transfer rules as his $60K Duke counterpart.
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StillAWarrior

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2016, 09:53:51 AM »
First, congratulations. That is really cool for you and your kid.

Second, what if your child were a violin prodigy who earned a free ride to Johns Hopkins?

I'm pretty sure there are no regs in place that would keep your child from leaving Johns Hopkins after one year for Julliard, getting a full ride at his/her new school and being eligible immediately to play the violin at Julliard events.

We sometimes get caught up in the numbers, also. The Wyoming kid who gets a $4,600/year free ride at his in-state university is every bit as "trapped" by the transfer rules as his $60K Duke counterpart.

Thank you.

I'm not at all opposed to letting athletes transfer more freely.  In fact, I would support that.  I feel similarly to several others  in this thread.  I absolutely support letting athletes transfer freely and play immediately if there is a coaching change or if there is a NCAA action that doesn't involve the athlete.  I also think think they should be able to do so if the school releases them.  I have no problem with letting schools place some restrictions based on conference or even "traditional" rivalries.

But, that said, athletes do get significant benefits that other students do not get.  Even, I suspect, as compared to full ride violin prodigies.  I don't have a fundamental problem with there being some strings attached in exchange for those benefits.  And I honestly don't have any significant problem if they have some restrictions that other students do not have.  My comment was simply agreeing with a prior post that was taking issue with your suggestion that scholarship athletes are not compensated.  They are compensated.  In many cases quite well.  From a purely dollars/cents perspective, I'm not sure many other places where an 18-20 year old can earn in the neighborhood of $75k/year.  Even at state schools with much lower price tags, they are getting something of significant value, if not high priced.  I would be extremely opposed to letting them transfer mid-season and play immediately.

I would certainly support some changes to NCAA rules that would give athletes more freedom and control, but I tend to bristle at the notion that they are uncompensated and exploited.  While I agree with the notion that "the athletes" (i.e., a nameless, faceless group) do make "the billions" possible (although I would argue it is only a very small percentage of them in just a couple of revenue sports), I'm not convinced that the specific athletes are all that important to the process.  As others have pointed out, we're all rooting for laundry.  I'm a huge fan of many of the Warriors who have played in a Marquette jersey, but at the end of the day, I'm really just a fan of the jersey.  I think I'm in the majority on that.  How many Wisconsin fans who were (for a short time) huge Vander Blue fans went out and purchased his Marquette jersey?
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MU82

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2016, 04:16:11 PM »
Thank you.

I'm not at all opposed to letting athletes transfer more freely.  In fact, I would support that.  I feel similarly to several others  in this thread.  I absolutely support letting athletes transfer freely and play immediately if there is a coaching change or if there is a NCAA action that doesn't involve the athlete.  I also think think they should be able to do so if the school releases them.  I have no problem with letting schools place some restrictions based on conference or even "traditional" rivalries.

But, that said, athletes do get significant benefits that other students do not get.  Even, I suspect, as compared to full ride violin prodigies.  I don't have a fundamental problem with there being some strings attached in exchange for those benefits.  And I honestly don't have any significant problem if they have some restrictions that other students do not have.  My comment was simply agreeing with a prior post that was taking issue with your suggestion that scholarship athletes are not compensated.  They are compensated.  In many cases quite well.  From a purely dollars/cents perspective, I'm not sure many other places where an 18-20 year old can earn in the neighborhood of $75k/year.  Even at state schools with much lower price tags, they are getting something of significant value, if not high priced.  I would be extremely opposed to letting them transfer mid-season and play immediately.

I would certainly support some changes to NCAA rules that would give athletes more freedom and control, but I tend to bristle at the notion that they are uncompensated and exploited.  While I agree with the notion that "the athletes" (i.e., a nameless, faceless group) do make "the billions" possible (although I would argue it is only a very small percentage of them in just a couple of revenue sports), I'm not convinced that the specific athletes are all that important to the process.  As others have pointed out, we're all rooting for laundry.  I'm a huge fan of many of the Warriors who have played in a Marquette jersey, but at the end of the day, I'm really just a fan of the jersey.  I think I'm in the majority on that.  How many Wisconsin fans who were (for a short time) huge Vander Blue fans went out and purchased his Marquette jersey?

Fair enough. Our views don't differ significantly, and what we do differ on we can amicably agree to disagree.

Be careful about using phrases such as this, though: From a purely dollars/cents perspective, I'm not sure many other places where an 18-20 year old can earn in the neighborhood of $75k/year.

To protect its fiefdom, the NCAA has argued repeatedly that student/athletes are not employees. Therefore, they don't "earn" money in the form of scholarships.
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StillAWarrior

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2016, 04:27:18 PM »
Fair enough. Our views don't differ significantly, and what we do differ on we can amicably agree to disagree.

Be careful about using phrases such as this, though: From a purely dollars/cents perspective, I'm not sure many other places where an 18-20 year old can earn in the neighborhood of $75k/year.

To protect its fiefdom, the NCAA has argued repeatedly that student/athletes are not employees. Therefore, they don't "earn" money in the form of scholarships.

I understand that issue, but I'm not too worried about what I say.  I suspect that I'm an unlikely witness should the NCAA have to deal with DOL and/or NLRB or any of the other alphabet soup agencies.  I can, of course, use the appropriate terminology and point out that I was merely comparing the dollar value of the "grant in aid" received by "student athletes" with the "wages" available from other sources to "employees" of that age/experience level (or not available, as the case may be).
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MU82

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2016, 05:40:54 PM »
I understand that issue, but I'm not too worried about what I say.  I suspect that I'm an unlikely witness should the NCAA have to deal with DOL and/or NLRB or any of the other alphabet soup agencies.  I can, of course, use the appropriate terminology and point out that I was merely comparing the dollar value of the "grant in aid" received by "student athletes" with the "wages" available from other sources to "employees" of that age/experience level (or not available, as the case may be).

True dat.

It's like fellow Scoopers warning me about "looking past" an opponent, as if me looking past an opponent will factor into the results of any game. Point taken.
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#UnleashSean

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2016, 05:52:44 PM »
True dat.

It's like fellow Scoopers warning me about "looking past" an opponent, as if me looking past an opponent will factor into the results of any game. Point taken.

A civil conversation on scoop between people who disagreed? My God we should start the presses.  This could bring about world peace

Newsdreams

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #45 on: September 15, 2016, 01:39:36 PM »
A civil conversation on scoop between people who disagreed? My God we should start the presses.  This could bring about world peace
They should get banned!!
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MU82

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #46 on: September 15, 2016, 09:46:22 PM »
A civil conversation on scoop between people who disagreed? My God we should start the presses.  This could bring about world peace

Go to h-e-double hockey stix!

There ... is that better?
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Herman Cain

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2016, 08:34:59 PM »
One of the things that many people don't take into consideration in discussions about transfers is the domino effect in the initial recruitment for lack of a better term.

Lets take for example our recent commitment of Jamal Cain. After reading the Michigan Board thread, Cain was ostensibly waiting to receive a commitment from Michigan, however Michigan was holding out to hear from Mohamed Bamba. As Cain saw that MU committed both Ike and Theo and we are hot and heavy for French and Tillman  , he and his family did not want to lose out on a spot with us, so he took it. We are now down to one scholarship and when that is taken the final domino will fall and the next guy whoever that is will go somewhere else.

So what I am saying is when a kid commits to a school and takes a schollie he is in effect somewhere down the line knocking someone out.  Ok so that is life in the big city. In some respects I believe the one year sit out rule in effect is a comprise between saying a kid or school may make a mistake initially, but it also serves as a governor of sort to prevent kids using a school as a proving ground to get a better deal without thinking long and hard about it . After all the schools put a lot of time and expense into making the original commitment with no guarantees the kid will pan out.

For example,  Andrew Rowsey, obviously  had to think long and hard about leaving a good thing at UNC Asheville for the unknown with us. He is taking some of the risk now and I think there is some equity in that.
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GGGG

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2016, 08:54:54 PM »
???  The sit out rule prevents more students from benefiting from scholarships. 

Herman Cain

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Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2016, 09:09:26 PM »
???  The sit out rule prevents more students from benefiting from scholarships.
There is an immediate opening on the departed team.

Yes the new team uses up a scholarship. However, that is part of the equability I am speaking to. There is a two way cost in a transfer situation to hopefully make everyone think about it.  Look at the STjr situation, we put in 3 years of dealing with injuries etc, and by the end of the junior year he finally started to have some consistent value as a player. So just when it looked we were going to get a solid senior player, he transfers.  Now of course from his point of view, he got recruited over by Henry and he didn't want to waste his senior year on the bench. The price of transfering was sitting out a year, but it was obviously worth it to him academically and athletically and by going down a level Toledo benefited big time and it was thus worth it to them to tie up a scholarship and it freed up a scholarship for us which in some respects was Rowsey.
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