MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: #UnleashSean on September 09, 2016, 02:28:51 PM

Title: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: #UnleashSean on September 09, 2016, 02:28:51 PM
http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2016/09/09/could-ncaa-eliminate-transfer-redshirts-what-happens-to-college-sports-if-they-do/
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Jay Bee on September 09, 2016, 02:33:08 PM
No! We need more sitting out (grad teams)
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: GGGG on September 09, 2016, 02:34:23 PM
Yes!  Chaos!  I love it!
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 09, 2016, 02:34:30 PM
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/17501805/will-free-agency-every-come-college-basketball
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: #UnleashSean on September 09, 2016, 02:35:40 PM
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/17501805/will-free-agency-every-come-college-basketball

will-free-agency-every-come

This typo has me on edge
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 09, 2016, 02:38:36 PM
The articles talk about players transferring mid-season and being immediately eligible, that would be ridiculous. I don't know if this is possible but I wish the rule was that a transfer could be immediately eligible if their scholarship is up. If they leave before it is up then they have to sit.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: #UnleashSean on September 09, 2016, 02:43:21 PM
The articles talk about players transferring mid-season and being immediately eligible, that would be ridiculous. I don't know if this is possible but I wish the rule was that a transfer could be immediately eligible if their scholarship is up. If they leave before it is up then they have to sit.

I am also in agreement. I believe transfers should be full freedom after a season ends. If a player decides to transfer mid season then they will have to sit out until next season.

Also like the idea Coach K gives, where if a coach leaves, players have full freedom to transfer. I would addon to that with full freedom transfers if the school gets sanctions against them that had nothing to do with the player in question. IE 2 players get paid, school gets banned from Ncaa tournament for 3 years, the other 10 players should have full transfer freedom.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: GooooMarquette on September 09, 2016, 05:24:50 PM
This would provide the final proof for what Jerry Seinfeld said:  fans cheer for the uniforms, not the players.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Tugg Speedman on September 09, 2016, 05:32:52 PM
I am also in agreement. I believe transfers should be full freedom after a season ends. If a player decides to transfer mid season then they will have to sit out until next season.

Also like the idea Coach K gives, where if a coach leaves, players have full freedom to transfer. I would addon to that with full freedom transfers if the school gets sanctions against them that had nothing to do with the player in question. IE 2 players get paid, school gets banned from Ncaa tournament for 3 years, the other 10 players should have full transfer freedom.

That means you never stop recruiting players even after they sign.  Ready for coaches constantly calling players like Cheatham and Howard telling them going to MU was a mistake and they could transfer and immediately play.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on September 09, 2016, 06:32:14 PM
I would addon to that with full freedom transfers if the school gets sanctions against them that had nothing to do with the player in question. IE 2 players get paid, school gets banned from Ncaa tournament for 3 years, the other 10 players should have full transfer freedom.

I believe that would be the case under current rules where the NCAA could issue waivers.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on September 09, 2016, 06:36:39 PM
As a whole though, I believe the current rules where players sit is fine.  Employers can put a non-compete clause in an employee's contract.  That's essentially what the transfer redshirt is: A non-compete clause.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Pakuni on September 09, 2016, 06:44:38 PM
As a whole though, I believe the current rules where players sit is fine.  Employers can put a non-compete clause in an employee's contract.  That's essentially what the transfer redshirt is: A non-compete clause.

Except the NCAA vehemently insists its athletes are not employees and should not be treated as employees.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: CAGASS24 on September 09, 2016, 06:56:17 PM
Def agree with TAMU that should only apply after the end of school year - but this makes me think there'd be a lot more kids at the end of their eligibility nowhere close to graduating - and then the argument will be the schools/ncaa have failed them at getting their degrees
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Herman Cain on September 09, 2016, 07:15:15 PM
My view is for revenue sports the one year rule stays in place. Otherwise there would be complete chaos. However, eliminate the 5 years to play 4 rule, which in certain cases hurts kids. In addition liberalize what a used year of eligibility is. Guys like John Dawson who played  4 minutes should not lose a year of eligibility. Finally, there is merit in the grad transfer provision as it currently stands, I have seen very few cases where anyone is hurt from that. The primary objective is for the kid to graduate. If the kid is happy he will stay , if he feels there are greener pastures let him seek them. Also there are family life circumstances that come in to play such as they did with Lockett and one of the recent Michigan State grad transfers. The life of a college athlete is short so why not let them and their family get the most out of it.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: thePhoenix on September 09, 2016, 07:31:49 PM
The stupidity of this idea cannot be understated.  The author knows it, and relishes in it.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Loose Cannon on September 09, 2016, 09:22:10 PM
Is Wally still Leashed?
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: MU82 on September 09, 2016, 09:29:30 PM
Except the NCAA vehemently insists its athletes are not employees and should not be treated as employees.

Exactly.

Everybody has freedom and rights and compensation ... except the "student/athletes" ... the very people who make the billion$ possible.

But yes, let's worry about the "chaos" for our own selfish reasons: We like watching our school uniforms compete against the other school's uniforms.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Jay Bee on September 10, 2016, 09:18:42 AM
Exactly.

Everybody has freedom and rights and compensation ... except the "student/athletes" ... the very people who make the billion$ possible.

But yes, let's worry about the "chaos" for our own selfish reasons: We like watching our school uniforms compete against the other school's uniforms.

Or for a different reason... academics first.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 10, 2016, 11:40:37 AM
Or for a different reason... academics first.

 ::)
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: #UnleashSean on September 10, 2016, 02:50:08 PM
 
Or for a different reason... academics first.

  ;D
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: MU82 on September 10, 2016, 09:37:06 PM
Or for a different reason... academics first.

Well, if that's what the schools really want, they need to simply dump their basketball and football programs. Stop being minor leagues for the NBA and NFL, and get in the business of educating youngsters.

Anything more "sporty" than the Ivy League or Patriot League, and it's just one big hypocrisy.

Which, of course, it is.

Having said that, J.B., I know you were being sarcastic and, like me, don't like using teal.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: forgetful on September 10, 2016, 10:01:15 PM
Exactly.

Everybody has freedom and rights and compensation ... except the "student/athletes" ... the very people who make the billion$ possible.

But yes, let's worry about the "chaos" for our own selfish reasons: We like watching our school uniforms compete against the other school's uniforms.

I hate when people say this.  It is not true.  The students sign a legally binding document to agree to financial aide and grant their rights to the University.  They have every right to not do so and try to find professional work as an athlete.  They choose not to for the benefits of college.

Similarly, professors, grad students, students sign away their technology rights in lieu of being able to have access to the benefits a University provides.  They also sign away billions.  Everything is the same, they all have a choice in the matter. 

If you work for a company doing research, in your contract you sign away your rights to technology you develop.  Again, you have a choice.  You choose to sign away for the benefits of your employer, because of what they can provide for your future career.

Student/Athletes are no different than any scholarship/stipend/grant-in-aid/salary.  You sign away certain rights to profits generated by you, for the benefits/compensation you receive.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: wadesworld on September 10, 2016, 10:34:38 PM
I hate when people say this.  It is not true.  The students sign a legally binding document to agree to financial aide and grant their rights to the University.  They have every right to not do so and try to find professional work as an athlete.  They choose not to for the benefits of college.

Similarly, professors, grad students, students sign away their technology rights in lieu of being able to have access to the benefits a University provides.  They also sign away billions.  Everything is the same, they all have a choice in the matter. 

If you work for a company doing research, in your contract you sign away your rights to technology you develop.  Again, you have a choice.  You choose to sign away for the benefits of your employer, because of what they can provide for your future career.

Student/Athletes are no different than any scholarship/stipend/grant-in-aid/salary.  You sign away certain rights to profits generated by you, for the benefits/compensation you receive.

Well, not really.  Sure, an 18 year old kid could move out of the country to a country he's probably never been to that speaks a language he probably doesn't speak and only see his family over a computer or cell phone screen and struggle through a year playing overseas.

We take away his right to find work as a professional athlete in this country.  There's really only 1 logical choice.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: forgetful on September 10, 2016, 10:57:12 PM
Well, not really.  Sure, an 18 year old kid could move out of the country to a country he's probably never been to that speaks a language he probably doesn't speak and only see his family over a computer or cell phone screen and struggle through a year playing overseas.

We take away his right to find work as a professional athlete in this country.  There's really only 1 logical choice.

There is the D-league (or CFL, Arena, Indoor Football League, Champions Indoor Football, Arena Development league for football), they could all go there.  If there is a market for such a sport system, and they all bypassed college to play in the D-league (or equivalent), the profits there would rise and with it compensation.

That brings up the crux of the problem though, the reason there aren't other options is that it will not be profitable.  There is no market for a minor league team system with salaries that would even be equal to a scholarship.  People watch college athletics because of University tradition and affiliation with alma mater's, not for the quality of the athletic competition (that's what the NBA/NFL is for).

The athletes now want two things, they want to benefit from the exposure and audiences brought in because of a University, but want to be paid like they are not in a University setting. 

If I go work for company x, because they give me the resources so that I can invent technology x (see audience/exposure); everyone would agree that it is absurd for me to want the company to invest in all the infrastructure, provide all the tools and financial support, but grant me all the profit. 

For athletes we view them differently for some strange reason, and feel they should be provided all the above. 

On top of that, there are key problems  if one does provide compensation.  As soon as the athletes are employees, the universities have crossed into "for profit" territory for athletics.  That means that they cannot accept any government funding for anything affiliated with athletics.  They cannot use any academic resources for athletics.  They cannot obtain "tax deductible" donations for athletics.  Essentially, athletics goes away.

The student/athlete logic (although rationally absurd at this point) that is important to the transfer issue and compensation really results from a desire to maintain the veil of a "not-for-profit educational mission".  The transfer issue really doesn't damage that veil, so I'm largely ok with it.  But compensation above total compensation/minor stipend would thoroughly pierce the veil.

Disclosure:  the information above is my opinion and my opinion alone.  These issues cannot be proven one way or another definitively; in the end we will be left with our opinion.  Take the information as such.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Jay Bee on September 10, 2016, 11:22:37 PM
If you do not care for the rules surrounding college athletics, you are free to not participate.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: MarquetteDano on September 11, 2016, 09:23:03 AM
If you do not care for the rules surrounding college athletics, you are free to not participate.

Yup.  As I have brought up here before my cousins were both excellent at baseball.  One decided on the minor leagues and signed $100k signing bonus plus was paid to play minor league baseball.  Another decided to play for Northwestern.

The one who played in the minor leagues wishes we would have went to University.  The one who went to Northwestern was happy with his decision.  But some around here who make you believe that these college athletes are maltreated and are basically slave labor.

For the record,  I am okay with some sort of stipend for higher revenue sports.  But other than that,  I think it is a pretty good deal for these athletes.  And for those who think it is a bad deal,  they are feel to play sports elsewhere or get a real job like the rest of us.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: The Equalizer on September 11, 2016, 09:29:49 AM
Exactly.

Everybody has freedom and rights and compensation ... except the "student/athletes" ... the very people who make the billion$ possible.


As if a $200K education is somehow irrelevant. Not to mention the access to coaches, trainers, tutors, dietitians, facilities, networking with influential alums, etc.

And it's not even correct to suggest that the student/athletes have no rights and freedom. If they had no rights, they would not be able to transfer at all. Under any circumstances. Ever. 

Under the current rules, they HAVE transfer rights.  They CAN transfer if they wish, with the caveat being that they sit out a year.  AND they're awarded with an extra $50,000 in scholarship funds to do so.  So its not even fair to suggest that they're being penalized for transferring. 

Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: dgies9156 on September 11, 2016, 09:54:11 AM
I hope they change the rules to the following:

1) No in-season transfers can play in the same season. Ever.

2) Transfers would be allowed with immediate eligibility if:
    a) The player obtains a formal release from the university from where he is transferring.
    b) The coach who recruited him leaves or is fired.
    c) The school is placed on NCAA probation, provided the student did not violate NCAA rules.

3) In the event that the student-athlete does not obtain a release subject to 2(a) and the provisions of 2(b) or 2(c) are not met, the player would be prohibited from being on the active roster of another member school for a period of one year from the date of a formal withdrawal from the school where the student athlete is transferring from.

We all make mistakes and we all deserve to rectify them. If a student makes a mistake and wishes to transfer, provision 2(a) should facilitate the move and allow the coach some leeway in  ensuring that, for example, a North Carolina player does not end up at Duke -- or one of our guys ends up at Depaul or Wisconsin.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: MarquetteDano on September 11, 2016, 10:25:04 AM
I hope they change the rules to the following:

1) No in-season transfers can play in the same season. Ever.

2) Transfers would be allowed with immediate eligibility if:
    a) The player obtains a formal release from the university from where he is transferring.
    b) The coach who recruited him leaves or is fired.
    c) The school is placed on NCAA probation, provided the student did not violate NCAA rules.

3) In the event that the student-athlete does not obtain a release subject to 2(a) and the provisions of 2(b) or 2(c) are not met, the player would be prohibited from being on the active roster of another member school for a period of one year from the date of a formal withdrawal from the school where the student athlete si transferring from.

We all make mistakes and we all deserve to rectify them. If a student makes a mistake and wishes to transfer, provision 2(a) should facilitate the move and allow the coach some leeway in  ensuring that, for example, a North Carolina player does not end up at Duke -- or one of our guys ends up at Depaul or Wisconsin.

This sounds very fair to me.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: forgetful on September 11, 2016, 11:24:19 AM
I hope they change the rules to the following:

1) No in-season transfers can play in the same season. Ever.

2) Transfers would be allowed with immediate eligibility if:
    a) The player obtains a formal release from the university from where he is transferring.
    b) The coach who recruited him leaves or is fired.
    c) The school is placed on NCAA probation, provided the student did not violate NCAA rules.

3) In the event that the student-athlete does not obtain a release subject to 2(a) and the provisions of 2(b) or 2(c) are not met, the player would be prohibited from being on the active roster of another member school for a period of one year from the date of a formal withdrawal from the school where the student athlete si transferring from.

We all make mistakes and we all deserve to rectify them. If a student makes a mistake and wishes to transfer, provision 2(a) should facilitate the move and allow the coach some leeway in  ensuring that, for example, a North Carolina player does not end up at Duke -- or one of our guys ends up at Depaul or Wisconsin.

Its tough to find a reason to disagree with this.  Seems very fair.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Billy Hoyle on September 11, 2016, 11:39:31 AM
I hope they change the rules to the following:

1) No in-season transfers can play in the same season. Ever.

2) Transfers would be allowed with immediate eligibility if:
    a) The player obtains a formal release from the university from where he is transferring.
    b) The coach who recruited him leaves or is fired.
    c) The school is placed on NCAA probation, provided the student did not violate NCAA rules.

3) In the event that the student-athlete does not obtain a release subject to 2(a) and the provisions of 2(b) or 2(c) are not met, the player would be prohibited from being on the active roster of another member school for a period of one year from the date of a formal withdrawal from the school where the student athlete si transferring from.

We all make mistakes and we all deserve to rectify them. If a student makes a mistake and wishes to transfer, provision 2(a) should facilitate the move and allow the coach some leeway in  ensuring that, for example, a North Carolina player does not end up at Duke -- or one of our guys ends up at Depaul or Wisconsin.

C is already a rule in the case of a post season ban being imposed.

There was an exception to allow immediate eligibility for run offs but that was caught up in the reform of immediate eligibility waiver requests for things like mom is sick and I need to go closer to home, take care of her and play basketball. Including run offs was unintentional but a wrong decision as the NCAA eliminated all waivers.

There is also immediate eligibility in cases of extreme circumstances, such as being the victim of physical abuse by a coach or other student on campus.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Marcus92 on September 11, 2016, 01:30:01 PM
I question whether changing the rule would have much effect at all.

It's not as though the prospect of sitting out is keeping anyone from transferring right now. Players leave after their first semester or first season all the time. And the academics rationale is so flimsy I'm not sure how anyone buys it.

The NCAA has a lot bigger issues to deal with than this one.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: rocky_warrior on September 12, 2016, 02:36:20 AM
Similarly, professors, grad students, students sign away their technology ...They also sign away billions. 

Good point.  But not really.  But good point.  If an idea is really worth a lot of money, usually the person/people that thought of it will benefit more the the university.  Not similar to most professors, and most athletes.  But if you're a really good athlete, you'll come out ahead of most college athletes. So good point, I guess.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: jsglow on September 12, 2016, 10:25:34 AM
I hope they change the rules to the following:

1) No in-season transfers can play in the same season. Ever.

2) Transfers would be allowed with immediate eligibility if:
    a) The player obtains a formal release from the university from where he is transferring.
    b) The coach who recruited him leaves or is fired.
    c) The school is placed on NCAA probation, provided the student did not violate NCAA rules.

3) In the event that the student-athlete does not obtain a release subject to 2(a) and the provisions of 2(b) or 2(c) are not met, the player would be prohibited from being on the active roster of another member school for a period of one year from the date of a formal withdrawal from the school where the student athlete is transferring from.

We all make mistakes and we all deserve to rectify them. If a student makes a mistake and wishes to transfer, provision 2(a) should facilitate the move and allow the coach some leeway in  ensuring that, for example, a North Carolina player does not end up at Duke -- or one of our guys ends up at Depaul or Wisconsin.

I think this is quite good.  Perhaps there is some kind of interesting wrinkle if a coach offers that 'next scholarship year' to the player in question and he turns it down.  Maybe unfettered transfer provisions kick in if the player has been 'released'.  I'll use Wally's case as an example and assume he couldn't utilize the graduate transfer option.  In my example, Wally would have had his scholarship terminated and be free to sign anywhere without penalty or delay.  Maybe intra-conference limitations might still apply.  Not sure on that.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: StillAWarrior on September 12, 2016, 10:52:03 AM
Yup.  As I have brought up here before my cousins were both excellent at baseball.  One decided on the minor leagues and signed $100k signing bonus plus was paid to play minor league baseball.  Another decided to play for Northwestern.

The one who played in the minor leagues wishes we would have went to University.  The one who went to Northwestern was happy with his decision.  But some around here who make you believe that these college athletes are maltreated and are basically slave labor.

For the record,  I am okay with some sort of stipend for higher revenue sports.  But other than that,  I think it is a pretty good deal for these athletes.  And for those who think it is a bad deal,  they are feel to play sports elsewhere or get a real job like the rest of us.

Would this pass Title IX scrutiny?  Presumably, that would mean payments to football and men's basketball that would not be available to any female athletes.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: StillAWarrior on September 12, 2016, 10:57:18 AM
As if a $200K education is somehow irrelevant. Not to mention the access to coaches, trainers, tutors, dietitians, facilities, networking with influential alums, etc.


Amen.  I've gotta admit that having a child commit to being exploited by a school with an all-in ticket price of $60k+ per year was a happy day at our house.  I'm just anxious to get ink on the LOI in another couple months.

Granted, my opinion may change at some point in the next four or five years.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: MarquetteDano on September 12, 2016, 10:59:45 AM
Would this pass Title IX scrutiny?  Presumably, that would mean payments to football and men's basketball that would not be available to any female athletes.

I will let the NCAA reg experts answer that one.  The hope is they would find away around Title IX but you make a good point.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: GGGG on September 12, 2016, 11:32:08 AM
I will let the NCAA reg experts answer that one.  The hope is they would find away around Title IX but you make a good point.


Why do you want to "find away around Title IX?"  That would be terrible.

Just make the value of scholarships total cost of attendance and use them like you do now.  Scholarships that are split in other sports would become more valuable in total.  Completely compliant with Title IX as long as the other requirements are met.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Benny B on September 12, 2016, 11:50:04 AM
Would this pass Title IX scrutiny?  Presumably, that would mean payments to football and men's basketball that would not be available to any female athletes.

In a nutshell... all resources/benefits must be allocated equally amongst men's and women's sports.  If you provide 50 FTE scholarships in football, you must provide 50 FTE scholarships in women's sports (whether that's 50 full rides, 100 half-rides, 20 full and 60 half, etc.)

Since stipend rules are not on the NCAA's books currently, there are no cut and dry rules or procedures... but the general consensus - to comply with Title IX - is that for every dollar of stipend provided to those participating in men's sports, one dollar of stipend must be provided to those participating in women's sports.  What's not clear - and this is part the NCAA needs to figure out before any visions of stipends becomes a reality - is whether those dollars need to be allocated equitably within the genders...

For example: Hypothetically, let's say that MU gives men's basketball $10,000 per player (x15) while all of the other men's sports get nothing.  Women's volleyball (x16) and La Crosse (x34) get $3,000 per player and all of the other women's sports get nothing.  Although the men's players get paid more than the women's players - not to mention you've clearly created inequities between the various sports - technically, this would NOT be a Title IX violation because men's and women's sports each received a collective $150,000.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: MU82 on September 13, 2016, 10:06:20 PM

Amen.  I've gotta admit that having a child commit to being exploited by a school with an all-in ticket price of $60k+ per year was a happy day at our house.  I'm just anxious to get ink on the LOI in another couple months.

Granted, my opinion may change at some point in the next four or five years.

First, congratulations. That is really cool for you and your kid.

Second, what if your child were a violin prodigy who earned a free ride to Johns Hopkins?

I'm pretty sure there are no regs in place that would keep your child from leaving Johns Hopkins after one year for Julliard, getting a full ride at his/her new school and being eligible immediately to play the violin at Julliard events.

We sometimes get caught up in the numbers, also. The Wyoming kid who gets a $4,600/year free ride at his in-state university is every bit as "trapped" by the transfer rules as his $60K Duke counterpart.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: StillAWarrior on September 14, 2016, 09:53:51 AM
First, congratulations. That is really cool for you and your kid.

Second, what if your child were a violin prodigy who earned a free ride to Johns Hopkins?

I'm pretty sure there are no regs in place that would keep your child from leaving Johns Hopkins after one year for Julliard, getting a full ride at his/her new school and being eligible immediately to play the violin at Julliard events.

We sometimes get caught up in the numbers, also. The Wyoming kid who gets a $4,600/year free ride at his in-state university is every bit as "trapped" by the transfer rules as his $60K Duke counterpart.

Thank you.

I'm not at all opposed to letting athletes transfer more freely.  In fact, I would support that.  I feel similarly to several others  in this thread.  I absolutely support letting athletes transfer freely and play immediately if there is a coaching change or if there is a NCAA action that doesn't involve the athlete.  I also think think they should be able to do so if the school releases them.  I have no problem with letting schools place some restrictions based on conference or even "traditional" rivalries.

But, that said, athletes do get significant benefits that other students do not get.  Even, I suspect, as compared to full ride violin prodigies.  I don't have a fundamental problem with there being some strings attached in exchange for those benefits.  And I honestly don't have any significant problem if they have some restrictions that other students do not have.  My comment was simply agreeing with a prior post that was taking issue with your suggestion that scholarship athletes are not compensated.  They are compensated.  In many cases quite well.  From a purely dollars/cents perspective, I'm not sure many other places where an 18-20 year old can earn in the neighborhood of $75k/year.  Even at state schools with much lower price tags, they are getting something of significant value, if not high priced.  I would be extremely opposed to letting them transfer mid-season and play immediately.

I would certainly support some changes to NCAA rules that would give athletes more freedom and control, but I tend to bristle at the notion that they are uncompensated and exploited.  While I agree with the notion that "the athletes" (i.e., a nameless, faceless group) do make "the billions" possible (although I would argue it is only a very small percentage of them in just a couple of revenue sports), I'm not convinced that the specific athletes are all that important to the process.  As others have pointed out, we're all rooting for laundry.  I'm a huge fan of many of the Warriors who have played in a Marquette jersey, but at the end of the day, I'm really just a fan of the jersey.  I think I'm in the majority on that.  How many Wisconsin fans who were (for a short time) huge Vander Blue fans went out and purchased his Marquette jersey?
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: MU82 on September 14, 2016, 04:16:11 PM
Thank you.

I'm not at all opposed to letting athletes transfer more freely.  In fact, I would support that.  I feel similarly to several others  in this thread.  I absolutely support letting athletes transfer freely and play immediately if there is a coaching change or if there is a NCAA action that doesn't involve the athlete.  I also think think they should be able to do so if the school releases them.  I have no problem with letting schools place some restrictions based on conference or even "traditional" rivalries.

But, that said, athletes do get significant benefits that other students do not get.  Even, I suspect, as compared to full ride violin prodigies.  I don't have a fundamental problem with there being some strings attached in exchange for those benefits.  And I honestly don't have any significant problem if they have some restrictions that other students do not have.  My comment was simply agreeing with a prior post that was taking issue with your suggestion that scholarship athletes are not compensated.  They are compensated.  In many cases quite well.  From a purely dollars/cents perspective, I'm not sure many other places where an 18-20 year old can earn in the neighborhood of $75k/year.  Even at state schools with much lower price tags, they are getting something of significant value, if not high priced.  I would be extremely opposed to letting them transfer mid-season and play immediately.

I would certainly support some changes to NCAA rules that would give athletes more freedom and control, but I tend to bristle at the notion that they are uncompensated and exploited.  While I agree with the notion that "the athletes" (i.e., a nameless, faceless group) do make "the billions" possible (although I would argue it is only a very small percentage of them in just a couple of revenue sports), I'm not convinced that the specific athletes are all that important to the process.  As others have pointed out, we're all rooting for laundry.  I'm a huge fan of many of the Warriors who have played in a Marquette jersey, but at the end of the day, I'm really just a fan of the jersey.  I think I'm in the majority on that.  How many Wisconsin fans who were (for a short time) huge Vander Blue fans went out and purchased his Marquette jersey?

Fair enough. Our views don't differ significantly, and what we do differ on we can amicably agree to disagree.

Be careful about using phrases such as this, though: From a purely dollars/cents perspective, I'm not sure many other places where an 18-20 year old can earn in the neighborhood of $75k/year.

To protect its fiefdom, the NCAA has argued repeatedly that student/athletes are not employees. Therefore, they don't "earn" money in the form of scholarships.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: StillAWarrior on September 14, 2016, 04:27:18 PM
Fair enough. Our views don't differ significantly, and what we do differ on we can amicably agree to disagree.

Be careful about using phrases such as this, though: From a purely dollars/cents perspective, I'm not sure many other places where an 18-20 year old can earn in the neighborhood of $75k/year.

To protect its fiefdom, the NCAA has argued repeatedly that student/athletes are not employees. Therefore, they don't "earn" money in the form of scholarships.

I understand that issue, but I'm not too worried about what I say.  I suspect that I'm an unlikely witness should the NCAA have to deal with DOL and/or NLRB or any of the other alphabet soup agencies.  I can, of course, use the appropriate terminology and point out that I was merely comparing the dollar value of the "grant in aid" received by "student athletes" with the "wages" available from other sources to "employees" of that age/experience level (or not available, as the case may be).
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: MU82 on September 14, 2016, 05:40:54 PM
I understand that issue, but I'm not too worried about what I say.  I suspect that I'm an unlikely witness should the NCAA have to deal with DOL and/or NLRB or any of the other alphabet soup agencies.  I can, of course, use the appropriate terminology and point out that I was merely comparing the dollar value of the "grant in aid" received by "student athletes" with the "wages" available from other sources to "employees" of that age/experience level (or not available, as the case may be).

True dat.

It's like fellow Scoopers warning me about "looking past" an opponent, as if me looking past an opponent will factor into the results of any game. Point taken.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: #UnleashSean on September 14, 2016, 05:52:44 PM
True dat.

It's like fellow Scoopers warning me about "looking past" an opponent, as if me looking past an opponent will factor into the results of any game. Point taken.

A civil conversation on scoop between people who disagreed? My God we should start the presses.  This could bring about world peace
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Newsdreams on September 15, 2016, 01:39:36 PM
A civil conversation on scoop between people who disagreed? My God we should start the presses.  This could bring about world peace
They should get banned!!
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: MU82 on September 15, 2016, 09:46:22 PM
A civil conversation on scoop between people who disagreed? My God we should start the presses.  This could bring about world peace

Go to h-e-double hockey stix!

There ... is that better?
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Herman Cain on September 19, 2016, 08:34:59 PM
One of the things that many people don't take into consideration in discussions about transfers is the domino effect in the initial recruitment for lack of a better term.

Lets take for example our recent commitment of Jamal Cain. After reading the Michigan Board thread, Cain was ostensibly waiting to receive a commitment from Michigan, however Michigan was holding out to hear from Mohamed Bamba. As Cain saw that MU committed both Ike and Theo and we are hot and heavy for French and Tillman  , he and his family did not want to lose out on a spot with us, so he took it. We are now down to one scholarship and when that is taken the final domino will fall and the next guy whoever that is will go somewhere else.

So what I am saying is when a kid commits to a school and takes a schollie he is in effect somewhere down the line knocking someone out.  Ok so that is life in the big city. In some respects I believe the one year sit out rule in effect is a comprise between saying a kid or school may make a mistake initially, but it also serves as a governor of sort to prevent kids using a school as a proving ground to get a better deal without thinking long and hard about it . After all the schools put a lot of time and expense into making the original commitment with no guarantees the kid will pan out.

For example,  Andrew Rowsey, obviously  had to think long and hard about leaving a good thing at UNC Asheville for the unknown with us. He is taking some of the risk now and I think there is some equity in that.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: GGGG on September 19, 2016, 08:54:54 PM
???  The sit out rule prevents more students from benefiting from scholarships. 
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Herman Cain on September 19, 2016, 09:09:26 PM
???  The sit out rule prevents more students from benefiting from scholarships.
There is an immediate opening on the departed team.

Yes the new team uses up a scholarship. However, that is part of the equability I am speaking to. There is a two way cost in a transfer situation to hopefully make everyone think about it.  Look at the STjr situation, we put in 3 years of dealing with injuries etc, and by the end of the junior year he finally started to have some consistent value as a player. So just when it looked we were going to get a solid senior player, he transfers.  Now of course from his point of view, he got recruited over by Henry and he didn't want to waste his senior year on the bench. The price of transfering was sitting out a year, but it was obviously worth it to him academically and athletically and by going down a level Toledo benefited big time and it was thus worth it to them to tie up a scholarship and it freed up a scholarship for us which in some respects was Rowsey.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: MU82 on September 19, 2016, 11:08:03 PM
One of the things that many people don't take into consideration in discussions about transfers is the domino effect in the initial recruitment for lack of a better term.

Lets take for example our recent commitment of Jamal Cain. After reading the Michigan Board thread, Cain was ostensibly waiting to receive a commitment from Michigan, however Michigan was holding out to hear from Mohamed Bamba. As Cain saw that MU committed both Ike and Theo and we are hot and heavy for French and Tillman  , he and his family did not want to lose out on a spot with us, so he took it. We are now down to one scholarship and when that is taken the final domino will fall and the next guy whoever that is will go somewhere else.

So what I am saying is when a kid commits to a school and takes a schollie he is in effect somewhere down the line knocking someone out.  Ok so that is life in the big city. In some respects I believe the one year sit out rule in effect is a comprise between saying a kid or school may make a mistake initially, but it also serves as a governor of sort to prevent kids using a school as a proving ground to get a better deal without thinking long and hard about it . After all the schools put a lot of time and expense into making the original commitment with no guarantees the kid will pan out.

For example,  Andrew Rowsey, obviously  had to think long and hard about leaving a good thing at UNC Asheville for the unknown with us. He is taking some of the risk now and I think there is some equity in that.

And what about when the coach over-recruits at a position and tells a kid to take a hike? How is the commitment working out then?
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: jsglow on September 20, 2016, 07:08:42 AM
And what about when the coach over-recruits at a position and tells a kid to take a hike? How is the commitment working out then?

Think I'm back to my earlier suggestion.  If a scholarship is renewed by his team then the one year sit out still applies.  If not (Wally), then he's free to transfer and is immediately eligible.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: MU82 on September 20, 2016, 08:26:52 AM
I understand, glow, and in a perfect world that seems to make sense.

College athletics is quite imperfect, and it favors the school and the coach at every turn. The athlete is treated like a necessary-evil employee who is at the institution/coach's beck and call ... unless he/she wants to be called an employee ... in which case the NCAA/school/coach argues that he/she is not an employee.

I guess what I do in these situations -- not just in sports but in life -- is side with the "little guy" vs the powerful institution.

If I'm gonna err, that's where I'm erring. (Even if I don't think it's an error at all.)
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: jsglow on September 20, 2016, 08:38:51 AM
Gotcha 82.  All good.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on September 20, 2016, 08:54:04 AM
I understand, glow, and in a perfect world that seems to make sense.

College athletics is quite imperfect, and it favors the school and the coach at every turn. The athlete is treated like a necessary-evil employee who is at the institution/coach's beck and call ... unless he/she wants to be called an employee ... in which case the NCAA/school/coach argues that he/she is not an employee.

I guess what I do in these situations -- not just in sports but in life -- is side with the "little guy" vs the powerful institution.

If I'm gonna err, that's where I'm erring. (Even if I don't think it's an error at all.)

If unrestricted free agency came to college sports, wouldn't this actually make the powerful institutions more powerful?

The big guys could essentially create an all-star team every year of experienced players looking to be showcased - in turn those in the elite conferences would be benefit.  This could really hurt smaller schools and in turn the product of college basketball. 

I guess I opt for a balanced system (because none is perfect) that benefits the many...Glow's suggestion is one way to try to preserve both.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: MU82 on September 20, 2016, 09:23:03 PM
If unrestricted free agency came to college sports, wouldn't this actually make the powerful institutions more powerful?

The big guys could essentially create an all-star team every year of experienced players looking to be showcased - in turn those in the elite conferences would be benefit.  This could really hurt smaller schools and in turn the product of college basketball. 

I guess I opt for a balanced system (because none is perfect) that benefits the many...Glow's suggestion is one way to try to preserve both.

I dunno. The NFL, in this era of free agency, has had 8 champions in 8 years.

Most of the best players will go where they can get playing time. Many will leave one place for another to get away from a coach who wasn't what they thought he was or a school that wasn't what they were led to believe it was.

Duke and Kentucky already have all-star teams. There are only so many scholarships available, and only so much playing time.

This is all so hypothetical. I'll believe there's massive change when I see it.

Meanwhile, the one and only advantage the athlete has is when he gets his degree and then transfers to play his final season elsewhere without having to sit out. And coaches are screaming bloody murder about that.

If I had to handicap the scenarios, I'd say that would be more likely to disappear than total free agency would have of being instituted.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: bilsu on September 20, 2016, 10:57:13 PM
And what about when the coach over-recruits at a position and tells a kid to take a hike? How is the commitment working out then?
I do not expect you guys to agree with me, but I have been thinking for a some time now is to not let coaches use a scholarship for one year, if a player transfers. The reason for this is twofold. First, if you make a commitment to a player than it should be kept. Breaking the commitment on the other end results in that player sitting out  a year. Freezing the scholarship makes the situation equal, because there is a penalty on both sides. Secondly, coaches will have to be more responsible for seeing that players fit in the program. No more signing players just to fill a scholarship. I would also extend this rule to early draft entries. Call it the anti-Kentucky rule.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: #UnleashSean on September 20, 2016, 11:10:14 PM
to prevent kids using a school as a proving ground to get a better deal without thinking long and hard about it .

People keep bringing this up as an argument, but why? Coaches do this, athletic directors do this, professionals do this, so why can't a kid who wasn't given the time of day do this?
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: brandx on September 20, 2016, 11:57:59 PM
People keep bringing this up as an argument, but why? Coaches do this, athletic directors do this, professionals do this, so why can't a kid who wasn't given the time of day do this?

Exactly. Plus, people not involved in sports do it every day.

Imagine ..... people trying to improve their standing in life. Disgraceful!!
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: MU82 on September 21, 2016, 07:01:48 AM
Unleash and brand are so obviously right on this that I almost feel sorry for MFINY for his naivite.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on September 21, 2016, 07:16:38 AM
I dunno. The NFL, in this era of free agency, has had 8 champions in 8 years.

Most of the best players will go where they can get playing time. Many will leave one place for another to get away from a coach who wasn't what they thought he was or a school that wasn't what they were led to believe it was.

Duke and Kentucky already have all-star teams. There are only so many scholarships available, and only so much playing time.

This is all so hypothetical. I'll believe there's massive change when I see it.

Meanwhile, the one and only advantage the athlete has is when he gets his degree and then transfers to play his final season elsewhere without having to sit out. And coaches are screaming bloody murder about that.

If I had to handicap the scenarios, I'd say that would be more likely to disappear than total free agency would have of being instituted.

I agree that this is likely to disappear and is very hypothetical.

Not worrying about the implications because of the NFL is not really a comforting example though since revenue sharing, salary caps and a limited & fixed amount of teams are not things that apply to college sports.

By the way, I like the grad transfer rule, but it definitely hurts the mid & low-major schools -- my hypothesis is expanding that privilege would likely hurt more schools/the system.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: GGGG on September 21, 2016, 08:17:51 AM
I do not expect you guys to agree with me, but I have been thinking for a some time now is to not let coaches use a scholarship for one year, if a player transfers. The reason for this is twofold. First, if you make a commitment to a player than it should be kept. Breaking the commitment on the other end results in that player sitting out  a year. Freezing the scholarship makes the situation equal, because there is a penalty on both sides. Secondly, coaches will have to be more responsible for seeing that players fit in the program. No more signing players just to fill a scholarship. I would also extend this rule to early draft entries. Call it the anti-Kentucky rule.


If you don't allow a coach to use the scholarship on someone else, they are basically going to do all they can to prevent a transfer even if a kid wants to transfer.  That makes the situation worse.

And freezing a scholarship for NBA entrants is non-sensical.  Why punish the school because a player wants to make a living?

Both these ideas are bad.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: CTWarrior on September 21, 2016, 10:42:52 AM
Seems to me that there should be a simple solution that all basketball/football scholarships should be four year scholarships (or if accepting a transfer from another school, however many years of eligibility the incoming transfer has plus one or if accepting a transfer from a JC 3 years or graduation, whichever comes first) and kids should have to sit out a year if they transfer.  You are not being punished by being forced to sit out a year for transferring, as you are gaining an additional year of free education.

This way both the school and the athlete have protection.

Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: bilsu on September 21, 2016, 11:15:16 AM

If you don't allow a coach to use the scholarship on someone else, they are basically going to do all they can to prevent a transfer even if a kid wants to transfer.  That makes the situation worse.

And freezing a scholarship for NBA entrants is non-sensical.  Why punish the school because a player wants to make a living?

Both these ideas are bad.
It gives a school less incentive to rely on taking only one & dones. Even if in Kentucky's case assuming they have four one & dones every year it results in them having 9 scholarships instead of 13 and they would have enough walk ons to practice.  They still would survive. In MU's case Henry leaving would of resulted in them having 12 scholarships for this year or 11 if they still would of cut Wally. The team will not play all 13 players, so losing a scholarship for a year is not much of a penalty. Wojo would still of recruited Henry under this scenario. They ended up with one unfilled, so they would of only of been able to sign one of Howard or Reinhardt. I am assuming they would of signed Howard and kept Wally. The result being we have the same team, except we have Wally instead of Reinhardt. We would be able to go back to 13 scholarships the next year. It would prevent over signing as you would not be able to over recruit with the plan of having someone transfer, because you could not use the transferring players scholarship for one year. As far as a player transferring, I would add that a coach could not restrict a transfer to any school. The incentive not to transfer is having to sit out a year and the coaches incentive to keep a player happy is not to lose that scholarship for a year. As far as fairness there is no system that is totally fair, but this is fairer because there is both a penalty for the coach and the player if there is a transfer.
This in my opinion would get rid of over signing, coaches cutting marginal players and put greater emphasis on building a team with four year players instead of one & dones as the blue bloods do. I see these as three positives.  The down side is overall there would be less scholarships given to high school players as a lot of teams would not be able to fill all 13 scholarships and teams will not take flyers on players (lost opportunity for some), since they will not be able to dump them so easily (no more one & dumps). You do not need to agree with me, this is just how I feel college basketball should be. Keep commitments made and recruit players that fit your college culture.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: GGGG on September 21, 2016, 11:18:23 AM
It gives a school less incentive to rely on taking only one & dones.


But I don't care if a school relies on one-and dones.  You are correcting a problem that isn't really a problem.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: bilsu on September 21, 2016, 11:34:27 AM

But I don't care if a school relies on one-and dones.  You are correcting a problem that isn't really a problem.
I guess it is what your goal is. Generally, the team expected to win the title is from a select group of blue blood teams. Duke, Kentucky, North Carolina, Kansas, etc. because they are the ones that are constantly signing one & dones. Occasionally a team like Villanova sneaks in and gets the title, but it is more likely that Duke, Kentucky, North Carolina and Kansas as a group will win several more titles before Villanova wins one again. I like to see the non blue bloods have a reasonable chance and that happens if the one and dones are spread out among more schools. The system is fine, if you are happy with a blue blood winning the title. Duke won it two years ago and I believe they are favored to win it this year with a new group of one & dones.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: GGGG on September 21, 2016, 11:51:10 AM
Blue bloods were winning titles before the one and done rule.  Blue bloods have won titles recently without one and dones (Louisville).  Really when is the last time a non-blue blood has won a title?  Donovan's Florida teams? 

Really no matter what the rules are, blue bloods are likely going to win the titles.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: #UnleashSean on September 21, 2016, 12:08:52 PM
I guess it is what your goal is. Generally, the team expected to win the title is from a select group of blue blood teams. Duke, Kentucky, North Carolina, Kansas, etc. because they are the ones that are constantly signing one & dones. Occasionally a team like Villanova sneaks in and gets the title, but it is more likely that Duke, Kentucky, North Carolina and Kansas as a group will win several more titles before Villanova wins one again. I like to see the non blue bloods have a reasonable chance and that happens if the one and dones are spread out among more schools. The system is fine, if you are happy with a blue blood winning the title. Duke won it two years ago and I believe they are favored to win it this year with a new group of one & dones.

Your trying to correct a problem that's not actually a problem by creating handicaps.

Your entire case for this is that blue bloods are to good so we should limit who they can recruit. Instead of having other colleges get better you are trying to artificially make great ones worse.

That is the most millennial argument ever.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Pakuni on September 21, 2016, 12:14:53 PM
Blue bloods were winning titles before the one and done rule.  Blue bloods have won titles recently without one and dones (Louisville).  Really when is the last time a non-blue blood has won a title?  Donovan's Florida teams? 

2016 Villanova
2014 UConn
2011 UConn
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: GGGG on September 21, 2016, 12:27:12 PM
2016 Villanova
2014 UConn
2011 UConn



UConn isn't a blue blood? 
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: bilsu on September 21, 2016, 01:26:37 PM

UConn isn't a blue blood?
They definitely were. It remains to be seen if Ollie can keep them there.
The difference between the UConn and Kentucky is that Uconn's blue blood status was coach dependent.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: bilsu on September 21, 2016, 01:34:04 PM
Your trying to correct a problem that's not actually a problem by creating handicaps.

Your entire case for this is that blue bloods are to good so we should limit who they can recruit. Instead of having other colleges get better you are trying to artificially make great ones worse.

That is the most millennial argument ever.
I think I am too old to be consider a millennial. Maybe, I am just envious of schools like Kentucky. I miss the Al McGuire days I grew up in. Of course back then UCLA won it every year. I just do not like basketball being dominated by certain teams who reload year after year. MU had their one & done and it may be another 25 years before we have another one.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Galway Eagle on September 21, 2016, 01:37:34 PM
They definitely were. It remains to be seen if Ollie can keep them there.
The difference between the UConn and Kentucky is that Uconn's blue blood status was coach dependent.

It really wasn't they could've hired someone huge but went with an unknown instead
 
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: GGGG on September 21, 2016, 02:23:46 PM
It really wasn't they could've hired someone huge but went with an unknown instead
 

Calhoun resigned in September.  So UConn basically had to name Ollie their coach on an interim basis.  He was the top assistant - it made perfect sense to do so.  He did well his first year, but didn't make the tournament due to APR issues.  They won the national championship the second year.

What "huge" coach would have taken the position?
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: CTWarrior on September 21, 2016, 03:08:13 PM
Calhoun resigned in September.  So UConn basically had to name Ollie their coach on an interim basis.  He was the top assistant - it made perfect sense to do so.  He did well his first year, but didn't make the tournament due to APR issues.  They won the national championship the second year.

What "huge" coach would have taken the position?

Calhoun wanted Ollie to be the next coach but wasn't sure the AD would see it that way so his retirement was timed to force the AD's hand and give Ollie the chance.  After the job Ollie did in his first two seasons (and continues to do, IMO) there was no reason for a change.  There is some worry year that NBA teams occasionally are sniffing around, but he now appears to be settled in for the long run.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Herman Cain on September 21, 2016, 03:21:45 PM
And what about when the coach over-recruits at a position and tells a kid to take a hike? How is the commitment working out then?
Clearly that is the unseemly underside of the business of college sports. The only offset is if a coach gets a reputation for that, the word gets out. Wojo , in my opinion , has skirted on the edges of this issue , and will need to modify his approach soon.

I am not advocating for the one year sit rule. Just pointing out there is some( not complete) equity in it.

The real solution is to go to four year scholarships. That way the kid still gets the guaranteed full ride even if he has to go to a different school to actually play.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Pakuni on September 21, 2016, 03:32:37 PM

UConn isn't a blue blood?

No.
In the 30 years before hiring Calhoun, they'd made a whopping three NCAA appearances and one Sweet 16.
Perhaps we just have different definitions of blue blood, but mine requires sustained success beyond one coaching tenure.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 21, 2016, 03:36:57 PM
Easy solution. When the scholarship is up, the student athlete can either renew or transfer and be immediately eligible. If you don't want the kid to transfer, offer em a multi year scholarship. If the kid transfers before the scholarship is up (e.g. mid-season transfer or leaves after year 1 of a 2 year scholarship) then they have to sit out a year as penalty.

Gives protection to both sides.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: StillAWarrior on September 21, 2016, 05:13:59 PM
Easy solution. When the scholarship is up, the student athlete can either renew or transfer and be immediately eligible. If you don't want the kid to transfer, offer em a multi year scholarship. If the kid transfers before the scholarship is up (e.g. mid-season transfer or leaves after year 1 of a 2 year scholarship) then they have to sit out a year as penalty.

Gives protection to both sides.

Stop being sensible.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Galway Eagle on September 22, 2016, 07:09:31 AM
Calhoun resigned in September.  So UConn basically had to name Ollie their coach on an interim basis.  He was the top assistant - it made perfect sense to do so.  He did well his first year, but didn't make the tournament due to APR issues.  They won the national championship the second year.

What "huge" coach would have taken the position?

Do you think if Calhoun had retired at a better time no big names would've been sniffing around a program that has been arguably the best in the country since 1999?
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: GGGG on September 22, 2016, 07:22:20 AM
Do you think if Calhoun had retired at a better time no big names would've been sniffing around a program that has been arguably the best in the country since 1999?

Well I don't know what you mean by "big names." Someone like Buzz?  Probably. Someone like Jay Wright?  I doubt it.

Replacing a legend is hard. Especially if that legend wants one of his guys to replace him. Most people wouldn't leave a good position for that.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: Benny B on September 22, 2016, 09:26:15 AM
Well I don't know what you mean by "big names." Someone like Buzz?  Probably. Someone like Jay Wright?  I doubt it.

Replacing a legend is hard. Especially if that legend wants one of his guys to replace him. Most people wouldn't leave a good position for that.

ZOMG.  This.  Without research or inquiry, I can unequivocally say that this is the most intelligent thing Sultan has said in the last two hours.

Just wait to see what happens when K retires at Duke.  Contrary to what most Scoopers may want to believe, there absolutely will not be any high-major coach throwing themselves at the Duke job when it happens... following a legend is a serious career risk.  Fail, and you kiss goodbye your chance of ever sniffing another top coaching job again; even if you succeed, you'll constantly be compared to your predecessor for the rest of your tenure. Lead your team to five straight S16 appearances in five years (throw in a FF or even a natty for good measure if you want) and that would be great - not spectacular, but great; however, miss the tourney in your sixth year, and your head might as well literally be on a chopping block, because boy, will it ever be figuratively.

In other words, there's no greater a (career) suicide mission than following a legend, unless.... wait for it.... you're hand-picked by your predecessor for the job because at that point, you've been excused of all faults, expectations and prejudice inherent to the aforementioned.  In other words, nobody but Gard was going to take the job at UW; nobody but Ollie was taking the job at UCONN, and nobody except whoever K picks is taking the job at Duke.
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: MU82 on September 22, 2016, 09:38:53 PM
No.
In the 30 years before hiring Calhoun, they'd made a whopping three NCAA appearances and one Sweet 16.
Perhaps we just have different definitions of blue blood, but mine requires sustained success beyond one coaching tenure.

I guess that means Indiana also is not a blueblood. Neither is Duke, which won precious little before the current coaching tenure.

Certainly, Arizona isn't. Neither is Michigan State. UCLA ... borderline.

That leaves who? Kentucky, UNC, Kansas ... anybody else?
Title: Re: Transfer Sitouts May be Coming to an End
Post by: GGGG on September 22, 2016, 10:07:01 PM
I guess that means Indiana also is not a blueblood. Neither is Duke, which won precious little before the current coaching tenure.

Certainly, Arizona isn't. Neither is Michigan State. UCLA ... borderline.

That leaves who? Kentucky, UNC, Kansas ... anybody else?


Michigan State won a national title prior to Izzo.

Indiana won two national championships prior to Knight.

Duke made four Final Fours and two national championship games prior to Coach K.