The spirit of the Olympics

[Spotcheck Billy]

This Bolt kid is pretty good.

he must be doping just like Justin Gatlin

[Benny B]

Michael Jordan wasn't as dominant as Ledecky.  That being said, I think they should be given the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

Ledecky never had to face a defense.  I'm sorry, but swimmers, golfers, gymnasts, bowlers, etc... none of them can even be compared to the likes of Pele, Jordan, Gretzky, Montana, Aaron, etc. who faced opposing game plans designed solely to shut them down, yet still ran circles around their opponents and set records.

Even Michael Phelps... without question he's a great athlete and dominated his sport, but to say he was at least as dominant as a basketball or football player - or to even compare relative dominance across sports?  Sorry, but the answer to that is an emphatic, "derrrrrrrrrrrrrr."

(BTW - I'm plagiarizing an article by Frank Schwab here.)

[wadesworld]

Ledecky never had to face a defense.  I'm sorry, but swimmers, golfers, gymnasts, bowlers, etc... none of them can even be compared to the likes of Pele, Jordan, Gretzky, Montana, Aaron, etc. who faced opposing game plans designed solely to shut them down, yet still ran circles around their opponents and set records.

Even Michael Phelps... without question he's a great athlete and dominated his sport, but to say he was at least as dominant as a basketball or football player - or to even compare relative dominance across sports?  Sorry, but the answer to that is an emphatic, "derrrrrrrrrrrrrr."

(BTW - I'm plagiarizing an article by Frank Schwab here.)

You can definitely compare dominance across sports.  Didn't ever basketball player have just as much of a chance to dominate the defense and game plan created to stop them as Michael Jordan did?

[Benny B]

You can definitely compare dominance across sports.  Didn't ever basketball player have just as much of a chance to dominate the defense and game plan created to stop them as Michael Jordan did?

That's the point... they did (have a chance) but they didn't (dominate).

Phelps, Ledecky, Nicklaus, etc... they never had the chance and therefore could never prove they could.  The only person in individual sports who ever faced a semblance of a defense was Roy Munson.

[wadesworld]

That's the point... they did (have a chance) but they didn't (dominate).

Phelps, Ledecky, Nicklaus, etc... they never had the chance and therefore could never prove they could.  The only person in individual sports who ever faced a semblance of a defense was Roy Munson.

I don't get it.  My point is that the dominant basketball, football, soccer, hockey, etc. player who has to beat a game plan isn't at some sort of disadvantage over any other athlete in that sport.  All other athletes in that sport also face defenses and game plans.  Meanwhile, a dominant swimmer or runner isn't running free of some defense that all other runners or swimmers are facing as an obstacle.  So a basketball, soccer, hockey, football, baseball, etc. player's ability to dominate relative to their sport is no different than a runner's or swimmer's ability to dominate relative to their sport.  All basketball players face the same obstacles as each other.  All runners face the same obstacles as each other.  Every basketball player and every runner have the same chance to dominate their sport as every other athlete in that sport.

[Benny B]

I don't get it.  My point is that the dominant basketball, football, soccer, hockey, etc. player who has to beat a game plan isn't at some sort of disadvantage over any other athlete in that sport.  All other athletes in that sport also face defenses and game plans.  Meanwhile, a dominant swimmer or runner isn't running free of some defense that all other runners or swimmers are facing as an obstacle.  So a basketball, soccer, hockey, football, baseball, etc. player's ability to dominate relative to their sport is no different than a runner's or swimmer's ability to dominate relative to their sport.  All basketball players face the same obstacles as each other.  All runners face the same obstacles as each other.  Every basketball player and every runner have the same chance to dominate their sport as every other athlete in that sport.

It's the connotation of 'dominance.'  You can say Michael Phelps dominated his competition like Bill Cosby dominated women, and while it would be a valid comparison to the extent that both phrases used the word "dominated," that's where the comparison ends.  The way a swimmer dominates in his/her sport is no more similar to the way a basketball player dominates in his/her sport than to the way 4ever dominates a plate of chicken wings and chili cheese fries.

So you can say Phelps and Ledecky dominated in swimming like Jordan dominated in basketball, but you can't say that Phelps/Ledecky were more dominant than Jordan (or vice versa) in relative or absolute terms unless you're willing to extend the same latitude to a comparison of Phelps/Ledecky being more dominant than Kim Jong Un is to the people of North Korea*.  If we want to dance in the ballroom of metaphor and hyperbole, then sure, call it as you will... but the pundits and public aren't merely being poetic with their recent comparisons of Phelps/Ledecky to the likes of Ali, Abdul-Jabbar, and Walter Payton (I actually heard that the other day;  only in Chicago), they're being quite literal.

* (Which of course, is false, because none is more omnipotent than Kim Jong Un and it is only by the will of the Dear Leader that he allows the US to dominate the Olympic swimming competition).

[wadesworld]

It's the connotation of 'dominance.'  You can say Michael Phelps dominated his competition like Bill Cosby dominated women, and while it would be a valid comparison to the extent that both phrases used the word "dominated," that's where the comparison ends.  The way a swimmer dominates in his/her sport is no more similar to the way a basketball player dominates in his/her sport than to the way 4ever dominates a plate of chicken wings and chili cheese fries.

So you can say Phelps and Ledecky dominated in swimming like Jordan dominated in basketball, but you can't say that Phelps/Ledecky were more dominant than Jordan (or vice versa) in relative or absolute terms unless you're willing to extend the same latitude to a comparison of Phelps/Ledecky being more dominant than Kim Jong Un is to the people of North Korea*.  If we want to dance in the ballroom of metaphor and hyperbole, then sure, call it as you will... but the pundits and public aren't merely being poetic with their recent comparisons of Phelps/Ledecky to the likes of Ali, Abdul-Jabbar, and Walter Payton (I actually heard that the other day;  only in Chicago), they're being quite literal.

* (Which of course, is false, because none is more omnipotent than Kim Jong Un and it is only by the will of the Dear Leader that he allows the US to dominate the Olympic swimming competition).

So then why can you compare a basketball player being dominant in his sport to a football player?  The way they each dominate their sport is as different from each other as swimming to basketball or running to football.

[warriorchick]

Let me say that the dumb argument you are having right now is definitely NOT in the spirit of the Olympics.

[Benny B]

So then why can you compare a basketball player being dominant in his sport to a football player?  The way they each dominate their sport is as different from each other as swimming to basketball or running to football.

Because in football, baseball, basketball, etc. performance is being measured by how others perform against other players, not how they perform compared to other players.  And in head-to-head sports, the landscape is constantly changing, unlike swimming, bowling, etc. where mastering the sport is all about repetition... to be dominant simply means winning and then doing the same thing over and over again. 

In head-to-head sports, dominance isn't simply lighting up the scoreboard... it's about making an impact on (or despite) your opponent.  Paul Hornung held the single-season scoring record in the NFL for nearly a half-century, but does anyone even consider him amongst the most dominant athletes of the 20th century?  But look at guys like Reggie White and Michael Strahan... how many touchdowns did they score, yet they'd likely be considered near the top of that list because no matter what kind of game plan the opposition threw at those guys, no matter how much film the opponent watched, no matter how much preparation the opposing coaching staff did the week before, those guys adapted to all of it and made an impact in nearly every game they played.

In other words, dominance in a head-to-head sport is mostly determined by how one adapts to competitors who are actively working against them in any way they possibly can, and that ability to adapt is something that you can easily compare across sports.

[wadesworld]

Because in football, baseball, basketball, etc. performance is being measured by how others perform against other players, not how they perform compared to other players.  And in head-to-head sports, the landscape is constantly changing, unlike swimming, bowling, etc. where mastering the sport is all about repetition... to be dominant simply means winning and then doing the same thing over and over again. 

In head-to-head sports, dominance isn't simply lighting up the scoreboard... it's about making an impact on (or despite) your opponent.  Paul Hornung held the single-season scoring record in the NFL for nearly a half-century, but does anyone even consider him amongst the most dominant athletes of the 20th century?  But look at guys like Reggie White and Michael Strahan... how many touchdowns did they score, yet they'd likely be considered near the top of that list because no matter what kind of game plan the opposition threw at those guys, no matter how much film the opponent watched, no matter how much preparation the opposing coaching staff did the week before, those guys adapted to all of it and made an impact in nearly every game they played.

In other words, dominance in a head-to-head sport is mostly determined by how one adapts to competitors who are actively working against them in any way they possibly can, and that ability to adapt is something that you can easily compare across sports.

Do you think Michael Phelps has had to adapt at all since 2000?  How about when he has to swim in the finals of a race and then 28 minutes later has to swim in the semifinals of a different race, while competing against people who literally swim in that single event?

Did Tiger Woods have to adapt at all from tournament to tournament, course to course, year to year?

If you ask me, those are the 2 most dominant athletes of all time.  Usain Bolt is up there, Karch Kiraly is up there, MJ is up there, Muhammad Ali is up there.  Ladecky can get up there.

[forgetful]

Holy crap.  Someone from South Africa just smashed Michael Johnson's 17 year old world record in the 400.

That was pure insanity.  He just sprinted the entire thing until his legs started giving out at the end.

[Benny B]

Do you think Michael Phelps has had to adapt at all since 2000?  How about when he has to swim in the finals of a race and then 28 minutes later has to swim in the semifinals of a different race, while competing against people who literally swim in that single event?

Did Tiger Woods have to adapt at all from tournament to tournament, course to course, year to year?

If you ask me, those are the 2 most dominant athletes of all time.  Usain Bolt is up there, Karch Kiraly is up there, MJ is up there, Muhammad Ali is up there.  Ladecky can get up there.

There is a huge difference between adapting to environment/setting vs. adapting to another living, breathing human being (who happens to simultaneously be attempting to adapt to you).  Woods never had to adapt to Phil plotting against him.  He never had to deal with chipmunks guarding the cup or birds stealing his ball.  And Phelps' decision to participate in multiple events against people participating in only one doesn't make him dominant, it makes him fuc*ing incredible.  But fuc*ing incredible doesn't make you dominant.

Interesting choice with Karch.  I find myself in total agreement with you on that one... not only did he face two living, breathing human beings on the other side of the net, in most of his championship matches, he was facing a living, breathing arch-rival who happened to be his former teammate.

[wadesworld]

There is a huge difference between adapting to environment/setting vs. adapting to another living, breathing human being (who happens to simultaneously be attempting to adapt to you).  Woods never had to adapt to Phil plotting against him.  He never had to deal with chipmunks guarding the cup or birds stealing his ball.  And Phelps' decision to participate in multiple events against people participating in only one doesn't make him dominant, it makes him fuc*ing incredible.  But fuc*ing incredible doesn't make you dominant.

Interesting choice with Karch.  I find myself in total agreement with you on that one... not only did he face two living, breathing human beings on the other side of the net, in most of his championship matches, he was facing a living, breathing arch-rival who happened to be his former teammate.

Not only was he the best sand/beach volleyball player in the history of the sport, he was also one of the best indoor players to ever play.  FIVB named him the world's best player in 1986 and 1988 and he was named the MVP of the 1988 Olympics.  He won national titles in his freshman, junior, and senior seasons at UCLA, losing in the finals his sophomore year.  His UCLA teams lost a total of 5 matches in 4 years, and he was a 4 time All American.

[Benny B]

Not only was he the best sand/beach volleyball player in the history of the sport, he was also one of the best indoor players to ever play.  FIVB named him the world's best player in 1986 and 1988 and he was named the MVP of the 1988 Olympics.  He won national titles in his freshman, junior, and senior seasons at UCLA, losing in the finals his sophomore year.  His UCLA teams lost a total of 5 matches in 4 years, and he was a 4 time All American.

Preaching to the choir... incidentally, you wouldn't believe the flak I got for doing a "sports heroes" class presentation on Karch, Kent, Sinjin and Randy in junior high.  Granted, the Twins were fresh off their second WS win in 4 years, but you'd think a fresh injection of AVP interest would have been welcome to a schedule that was ad nauseum-heavy on Puckett, Hrbek and Knoblauch.  Hell, if I did my project on Majik, I probably wouldn't even have elicited a sarcasm-laden sigh.

(I think I was one of only a few kids who got an A on that one... though I'll concede I might have got it out of sympathy, because as I recall, I really mailed it in by devoting a material portion of my presentation on the PC-game "Kings of the Beach.")



This screenshot from the game is a great reference for proper use of 'your' and 'you're.'

[brandx]

That was pure insanity.  He just sprinted the entire thing until his legs started giving out at the end.

Actually, he was pulling away from the field at the end of the race.

But, yes, when you are in lane 8, I think your only option is going as hard as you can right from the start.

[brandx]

Ledecky never had to face a defense.  I'm sorry, but swimmers, golfers, gymnasts, bowlers, etc... none of them can even be compared to the likes of Pele, Jordan, Gretzky, Montana, Aaron, etc. who faced opposing game plans designed solely to shut them down, yet still ran circles around their opponents and set records.

Pele, Jordan, gretzky, Montana, Aaron, etc. had teammates actively helping them out. Would Montana have been great if the O-Line refused to block for him? Would he have been as great without Rice and Craig?

Individual sport athletes have no one to help them. No one jumps in the pool to do a length or two for Phelps when he gets tired. Bolt has no one blocking for him to keep Gaitlin out of the lead.

Whether in a team or an individual sport, an athlete can only be judged on how he does against his peers - against other great athletes - during his career.

It really is pretty easy to see who the dominant athletes are in any sport.

[forgetful]

Actually, he was pulling away from the field at the end of the race.

But, yes, when you are in lane 8, I think your only option is going as hard as you can right from the start.

Agreed, really the only option from there.  And yes, even when his legs were giving out the last 10 meters, he was still pulling away.  One of the most amazing runs I've seen.

[wadesworld]

Pele, Jordan, gretzky, Montana, Aaron, etc. had teammates actively helping them out. Would Montana have been great if the O-Line refused to block for him? Would he have been as great without Rice and Craig?

Individual sport athletes have no one to help them. No one jumps in the pool to do a length or two for Phelps when he gets tired. Bolt has no one blocking for him to keep Gaitlin out of the lead.

Whether in a team or an individual sport, an athlete can only be judged on how he does against his peers - against other great athletes - during his career.

It really is pretty easy to see who the dominant athletes are in any sport.

A good point.

[naginiF]

Where's the smart money going on the "Lochte robbery" situation?

a)  Lochte and buddies made up some elaborate story after doing something stupid/illegal and lost all their money
b)  Rio 'officials' are trying to show they are in control, or the the city isn't out of control, and therefore being super d@ckish to the US swimmers, or
c)  something else.

Locate reminds me of Johhny Manziel, both physically and the way he carries himself, so i'm going with "a"

[wadesworld]

Where's the smart money going on the "Lochte robbery" situation?

a)  Lochte and buddies made up some elaborate story after doing something stupid/illegal and lost all their money
b)  Rio 'officials' are trying to show they are in control, or the the city isn't out of control, and therefore being super d@ckish to the US swimmers, or
c)  something else.

Locate reminds me of Johhny Manziel, both physically and the way he carries himself, so i'm going with "a"

B.  I've heard of more than one person being robbed at gunpoint by "police" officers in South America.  One was thrown in the back of a vehicle with his buddy with the inside passenger locks ripped off the car and driven out to the middle of nowhere before being ditched there after having all of their belongings taken from them.

[brewcity77]

No idea, but Lochte doesn't seem like the brightest individual. Wouldn't surprise me if he was involved in some moronic cover-up.

[warriorchick]

No idea, but Lochte doesn't seem like the brightest individual. Wouldn't surprise me if he was involved in some moronic cover-up.

There is a reason that Ryan Lochte didn't go to Stanford like many of his Olympic teammates.

[brandx]

Where's the smart money going on the "Lochte robbery" situation?

a)  Lochte and buddies made up some elaborate story after doing something stupid/illegal and lost all their money
b)  Rio 'officials' are trying to show they are in control, or the the city isn't out of control, and therefore being super d@ckish to the US swimmers, or
c)  something else.

Locate reminds me of Johhny Manziel, both physically and the way he carries himself, so i'm going with "a"

Character assassination is always a fun hobby when you are clueless of the facts.

While you're at it, maybe attack Gabby Douglas too.

[GGGG]

Character assassination is always a fun hobby when you are clueless of the facts.

While you're at it, maybe attack Gabby Douglas too.

Get over it. Speculating over the actions of a public figure is what we do here.

[4everwarriors]

Any traction to da rumor dat dey were purchasin' from da street pharmacist and were subsequently robbed by same, hey?