The spirit of the Olympics

[forgetful]

Questioning whether a repeat offender should be allowed to compete in the Olympics = making a girl out to be the devil?
Now who's the one being absurd?

Also, Yulia Efimova was a 21-year-old woman who'd been competing at the Olympic level for more than 5 years when she took a banned substance. Not some poor little girl who - oopsie - took a supplement.

She is not a repeat offender.  She tested positive once for DHEA as part of a supplement.  Similar things have happened to numerous athletes as accidents.

The more recent meldonium incident was ruled not a violation since it was taken before it was banned. 

The american's sleeping in high altitude chambers is more performance enhancing than anything Efimova did.

Meldonium was banned solely because eastern bloc nations' athletes were taking it and western doctors couldn't see a medical need for all athletes to take it.  Eastern doctor's though prescribe it to all intense athletes, because it has protective effects for the heart.  They believe it protects the heart from oxidative damage due to intense training, hence a medical need.

So this is solely a case of western and eastern medicine disagreeing on treatment plans and then banning a drug, with extremely limited evidence of any performance enhancing activities because we don't take it and they do.

Its complete BS and more political than athletic.

And on the supplement side, most countries regulate supplements and ban many of the ingredients that would result in a positive test (including DHEA) in all supplements.  The US is strange in having next to no regulations on supplements as the FDA does not have jurisdiction on their formulations.

Hell, I don't take any supplements and I would test positive, because I drink 3-6 cups of coffee per day.  American athletes that consume large amounts of caffeine are instructed to drink a ton of water so that they don't test positive.  They are consuming sufficient quantities of a banned drug, but won't test positive because of instructions.  Does that make them all repeat offenders?

edit:  They dropped caffeine from the banned list in 2004.  It has repeatedly been scientifically shown to enhance performance by up to 3% with proper dosing strategies.  American athletes actually have specific dosing strategies for caffeine to improve performance (scientifically tested).  Endurance athletes will consume the equivalent of 6-8 cans of red bull (caffeine wise) during competition.

[brandx]

Hell, I don't take any supplements and I would test positive, because I drink 3-6 cups of coffee per day.  American athletes that consume large amounts of caffeine are instructed to drink a ton of water so that they don't test positive.  They are consuming sufficient quantities of a banned drug, but won't test positive because of instructions.  Does that make them all repeat offenders?

What does this have to do with anything? Is there a list of athletes banned for drinking coffee?

I'm guessing not since caffeine is not banned by the IOC except in mega doses - i.e. at least a half dozen cups of coffee within an hour or two of testing.

[GGGG]

Meldonium was banned solely because eastern bloc nations' athletes were taking it and western doctors couldn't see a medical need for all athletes to take it.  Eastern doctor's though prescribe it to all intense athletes, because it has protective effects for the heart.  They believe it protects the heart from oxidative damage due to intense training, hence a medical need.

So this is solely a case of western and eastern medicine disagreeing on treatment plans and then banning a drug, with extremely limited evidence of any performance enhancing activities because we don't take it and they do.

Its complete BS and more political than athletic.

You really should provide a citation to the Pravda article you took this from. 

[forgetful]

You really should provide a citation to the Pravda article you took this from.

I've never read this Pravda article, nor do I even know what that means, so it is hard for me to provide a citation.

My statements are based on the scientific and medical information I know about those drugs and the history of them being placed on the WADA list.

[4everwarriors]

Is it Olympian ta rob American swimmas at gun point, hey?

[Pakuni]

She is not a repeat offender.  She tested positive once for DHEA as part of a supplement.  Similar things have happened to numerous athletes as accidents.

The more recent meldonium incident was ruled not a violation since it was taken before it was banned. 

This is not correct. Her suspension was temporarily lifted while WADA further studies the period of time meldonium stays in a person's system after consumption. If those studies find it likely she took the substance after the ban went into efferct, the suspension will be reinstated. In no way has she been cleared or the "meldonium incident" been ruled a non-violation.

Also, you have no idea how the DHEA got into her system. You only know her story, which - and perhaps I'm just a cynic - sounds totally incredible. Again, you're asking us to believe an adult woman who's been competing at the Olympic level for 5 years took a random GNC supplement without bothering to learn its ingredients. Sure, sure.And Barry Bonds thought it was  flaxseed oil.

The american's sleeping in high altitude chambers is more performance enhancing than anything Efimova did.

Because sleeping in a chamber is the exact same thing as a PED.
Lifting weights is also probably more performance enhancing than DHEA and meldonium. Your point?

Meldonium was banned solely because eastern bloc nations' athletes were taking it and western doctors couldn't see a medical need for all athletes to take it.  Eastern doctor's though prescribe it to all intense athletes, because it has protective effects for the heart.  They believe it protects the heart from oxidative damage due to intense training, hence a medical need.

Again, not correct. WADA banned meldonium because it believed it was being used for performance-enhancing purposes rather than medical purposes. They somehow found it unlikely that hundreds of young Russian athletes all needed meldonium for heart conditioning.

Its complete BS and more political than athletic.

OK, Vladimir. WADA is out to the get the Russians.

Hell, I don't take any supplements and I would test positive, because I drink 3-6 cups of coffee per day.  American athletes that consume large amounts of caffeine are instructed to drink a ton of water so that they don't test positive.  They are consuming sufficient quantities of a banned drug, but won't test positive because of instructions.  Does that make them all repeat offenders?

Explain how someone who doesn't test positive for a banned substance would qualify as a "repeat offender" in the same way as someone who's tested positive twice for a banned substance.

[forgetful]

What does this have to do with anything? Is there a list of athletes banned for drinking coffee?

I'm guessing not since caffeine is not banned by the IOC except in mega doses - i.e. at least a half dozen cups of coffee within an hour or two of testing.

I edited my statement, because it was removed in 2004 from the list.  The reason, energy drinks were becoming increasingly popular in the west. 

And scientific studies dating to the 90's show that a regular drinker of 3-6 cups of coffee a day could test positive under the old IOC regulations.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1368325/

[GGGG]

My statements are based on the scientific and medical information I know about those drugs and the history of them being placed on the WADA list.

Yet you didn't initially realize that caffeine has been off the list for 12 years.

[forgetful]

Because sleeping in a chamber is the exact same thing as a PED.

It is an artificial mechanism to boost red blood cells to improve athletic performance.  It does this by artificially creating hypoxia leading to stabilization of HIF2 and induction of EPO expression. 

EPO is banned.  Drugs that modulate EPO production are banned.  But sleeping in a hypoxia chamber to achieve the same result is perfectly ok.

Lifting weights is also probably more performance enhancing than DHEA and meldonium. Your point?

Yeah, lifting weights is not remotely similar to hypoxia chambers.  See above.

Again, not correct. WADA banned meldonium because it believed it was being used for performance-enhancing purposes rather than medical purposes.

Now go read on why they believed it was being used for performance-enhancing purposes.  It was because it was widely used in Eastern bloc nations to levels that western doctors did not deem consistent with medical needs. 

So this is solely a case of western and eastern medicine disagreeing on treatment plans and then banning a drug, with extremely limited evidence of any performance enhancing activities because we don't take it and they do.
OK, Vladimir. WADA is out to the get the Russians.

No, but there is a long history of eastern medicines and herbal supplements being banned, because western doctor's don't agree with them having a medical purpose.

Explain how someone who doesn't test positive for a banned substance would qualify as a "repeat offender" in the same way as someone who's tested positive twice for a banned substance.

Carl Lewis. Lance Armstrong.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/exum-claims-large-scale-cover-up-of-doping-positives/

We damn near invented the positive test coverup and if you think we still aren't doing it, I have a bridge to sell you.

[forgetful]

Yet you didn't initially realize that caffeine has been off the list for 12 years.

I was reading the article I linked above. 

I then read this after I posted.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/03/how-athletes-strategically-use-caffeine/283758/

This clarified the issue.  Ironically, the reason it was removed is that the levels being used were considered complicated as the level of use to test positive would be considered normal for some people.  Taking meldonium if you are training hard is considered normal in the East, as it is believed (and scientifically valid) to protect the heart from damage.

There is stronger evidence of performance enhancing properties of caffeine than meldonium.  Its just one is not used in the West.

[forgetful]

This is not correct. Her suspension was temporarily lifted while WADA further studies the period of time meldonium stays in a person's system after consumption. If those studies find it likely she took the substance after the ban went into efferct, the suspension will be reinstated. In no way has she been cleared or the "meldonium incident" been ruled a non-violation.

Please provide a link for this.  All evidence says she tested below the 1 microgram limit that automatically clears an individual of wrong doing, unless they admit taking it after Jan. 1st.

Only those testing above 15 micrograms have to wait for further research.

WADA has clear data showing that it can persist at these low (less than 1 microgram) levels for months after last consumption.  They are waiting for further research to see if in some individuals it can persist at higher levels.

Efimova tested below the 1 microgram level and by all accounts I can find has been cleared.

Not to mention that despite being below the limit, she was banned, and was not even allowed to train normally as she was banned from training at any USOC facilities (like at USC where her coach was).

[Pakuni]

It is an artificial mechanism to boost red blood cells to improve athletic performance.  It does this by artificially creating hypoxia leading to stabilization of HIF2 and induction of EPO expression. 

EPO is banned.  Drugs that modulate EPO production are banned.  But sleeping in a hypoxia chamber to achieve the same result is perfectly ok.

You seem to be missing the point of WADA.

Yeah, lifting weights is not remotely similar to hypoxia chambers.  See above.

Why not? Weight training involves using an artificial mechanism to produce performance enhancing results, include increased blood flow and improved red blood cells.
I'm just taking your attempt to analogize PEDs to a sleep chamber to the logical extreme. If you want to claim that any use of an artificial mechanism to enhance performance is the same, you'd have to ban weight lifting ... or at least the kind that doesn't involve hoisting tree trunks and rocks.
Otherwise, we could be reasonable and understand that there's a difference between drugs that manipulate one's chemical makeup and other forms of training.

Now go read on why they believed it was being used for performance-enhancing purposes. 

So wait, now you admit they were taking a laboratory-created substance because they believed it would enhance performance?
Glad we can finally agree.
To answer your question, meldonium has been proven to improve the flow of oxygen to muscle tissue. That, in turn, boosts stamina and endurance. That's why athletes take it, not because at they're 20something (and younger ... see Russian junior hockey team) world-class athletes who are worried that swimming, skating and running so much is bad for their hearts.

We damn near invented the positive test coverup and if you think we still aren't doing it, I have a bridge to sell you.

Relevance? Has your defense of Efimova essentially sunken to the level of "Everybody cheats, she's just worse at it."
Carl Lewis? Amazing you'd throw him out there as a cheat given your defense of Efimova.

[Pakuni]

Please provide a link for this.  All evidence says she tested below the 1 microgram limit that automatically clears an individual of wrong doing, unless they admit taking it after Jan. 1st.

Here's the full FINA statement on the lifting of her suspension, relevant portion in bold:

FINA Communications Department

FINA today confirmed that the provisional suspension of the Russian swimmer Yulia Efimova has been lifted from May 20, 2016, the news only being released after FINA had first given notification in person to the athlete and respective National Federation.

This news follows a new recommendation from the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA ) on this case. WADA is to undertake further scientific research on Meldonium and have therefore recommended to FINA that the suspension of the swimmer should be lifted.

In mid-April, based on the scientific evidence made available by WADA at that time, FINA's decision had been to maintain the suspension. This was mainly due to the sequence of testing results of Ms Efimova.

All these developments confirm the extreme complexity and sensitivity related to the inclusion of Meldonium in the list of prohibited substances.

Considering all of the above, FINA clarifies that this case is not closed. Following the outcome of WADA's scientific studies and subsequent indication on this matter, the FINA Doping Panel will take a decision. After that, Ms Efimova would be entitled to file an appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS).

FINA would like to underline that the decisions taken on this case have strictly followed the FINA Doping Control Rules as well as specific recommendations from WADA concerning the prohibited substance Meldonium.

http://fina.org/news/pr-46-fina-statement-ms-yulia-efimova-rus

[forgetful]

Here's the full FINA statement on the lifting of her suspension, relevant portion in bold:

FINA Communications Department

FINA today confirmed that the provisional suspension of the Russian swimmer Yulia Efimova has been lifted from May 20, 2016, the news only being released after FINA had first given notification in person to the athlete and respective National Federation.

This news follows a new recommendation from the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA ) on this case. WADA is to undertake further scientific research on Meldonium and have therefore recommended to FINA that the suspension of the swimmer should be lifted.

In mid-April, based on the scientific evidence made available by WADA at that time, FINA's decision had been to maintain the suspension. This was mainly due to the sequence of testing results of Ms Efimova.

All these developments confirm the extreme complexity and sensitivity related to the inclusion of Meldonium in the list of prohibited substances.

Considering all of the above, FINA clarifies that this case is not closed. Following the outcome of WADA's scientific studies and subsequent indication on this matter, the FINA Doping Panel will take a decision. After that, Ms Efimova would be entitled to file an appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS).

FINA would like to underline that the decisions taken on this case have strictly followed the FINA Doping Control Rules as well as specific recommendations from WADA concerning the prohibited substance Meldonium.

http://fina.org/news/pr-46-fina-statement-ms-yulia-efimova-rus

That was in May to allow her to start to train again.  She was fully cleared and charges dropped in late July. 

[Pakuni]

That was in May to allow her to start to train again.  She was fully cleared and charges dropped in late July.

If that's correct, then I'm mistaken.
Though FINA backing down on her suspension doesn't change the fact she tested positive for a banned substance.

[forgetful]

You seem to be missing the point of WADA.

Isn't the mission to provide a doping free environment?  Isn't a hypoxia chamber a lab created environment to artificially boost EPO and red blood cells?

Why not? Weight training involves using an artificial mechanism to produce performance enhancing results, include increased blood flow and improved red blood cells.
I'm just taking your attempt to analogize PEDs to a sleep chamber to the logical extreme. If you want to claim that any use of an artificial mechanism to enhance performance is the same, you'd have to ban weight lifting ... or at least the kind that doesn't involve hoisting tree trunks and rocks.
Otherwise, we could be reasonable and understand that there's a difference between drugs that manipulate one's chemical makeup and other forms of training.

Weight training is a natural mechanism to build strength, not artificial.  It uses ones natural muscle motions to build more efficient muscle mass.  It is a healthy activity that promotes longevity.

Building a tent that deprives one of oxygen is not remotely natural.  It is unhealthy and has negative long term side effects. 

But while were on the EPO.  There are numerous known HIF stabilizers that promote EPO that are being taken illegally by US athletes (not detectable) and others that are way more efficient and unknown (again being used by US athletes).  HIF happens to be an area of expertise for me, as I developed some of these unknown stabilizers as Cancer treatments that are currently in phase 2 trials.

So wait, now you admit they were taking a laboratory-created substance because they believed it would enhance performance?

Glad we can finally agree.

Never said that.  Said it was being prescribed for medical purposes according to Eastern Medical beliefs.  Just like most of our athletes take amphetamines for "ADHD", or narclepsy (modafinil). Since they are prescribed for a medical condition by a licensed doctor they are allowed.  These are western medicines developed by western companies that are known PEDs.

Meldonium has very limited evidence of performance enhancing abilities.

There is one study from the country Georgia that suggests it has a minor effect on ability in Judo.  The scientific mechanism of action indicates that it should have no positive effect on normal cells, but would prevent the death of ischemic cells, you know like in a heart attack.

So its scientific mechanism of action is to protect against heart cell death due to lack of oxygen.

The key difference, it is an Eastern European drug not approved for use in the US or the west.  If it was really performance enhancing and on the non-banned list, Western athletes would have been taking it too.

To answer your question, meldonium has been proven to improve the flow of oxygen to muscle tissue. That, in turn, boosts stamina and endurance. That's why athletes take it, not because at they're 20something (and younger ... see Russian junior hockey team) world-class athletes who are worried that swimming, skating and running so much is bad for their hearts.

You are not understanding the literature.  Meldonium exerts its effect only on ischemic tissue and specifically prevents cell death in these tissues.  Its effectiveness is limited to primarily two different avenues.  Ischemic heart tissue and ischemic brain tissue.  It is effective in improving effects of stroke and heart damage. 

Eastern medicine believes that hard training by young athletes leads to unnecessary damage to the heart and brain due to ischemia.  Meldonium directly counteracts this effect and is prescribed to nearly all athletes in the East. 

In the US, athletes use N-hydroxyarginine to achieve the same result.  Another lab created supplement that is used by nearly all western athletes that has a much more proven record of performance enhancing abilities, but is somehow perfectly legal to use.

Relevance? Has your defense of Efimova essentially sunken to the level of "Everybody cheats, she's just worse at it."
Carl Lewis? Amazing you'd throw him out there as a cheat given your defense of Efimova.

Carl Lewis tested positive at least three times.  All were covered up by the USOC.  Those are proven incidents.  We know for 20 years the USOC was covering up positive tests including for Carl Lewis. 

Efimova was being tested by the US division of WADA.  So she was not part of the Russian coverup.

So we have Lewis, known to test positive and have tests thrown out or covered up as part of a widespread state sponsored doping program.

And we have Efimova who tested positive for a supplement (only legal in the west; DHEA; for the record our top 400m runner also tested positive at around the same time as Efimova...also for a supplement) served a suspension and who later tested positive for a medication prescribed by her doctor that she ceased prior to it being banned.

Yeah, you are right, I shouldn't compare them at all.

[Pakuni]

Isn't the mission to provide a doping free environment?  Isn't a hypoxia chamber a lab created environment to artificially boost EPO
Carl Lewis tested positive at least three times.  All were covered up by the USOC.  Those are proven incidents.  We know for 20 years the USOC was covering up positive tests including for Carl Lewis. 

Efimova was being tested by the US division of WADA.  So she was not part of the Russian coverup.

So we have Lewis, known to test positive and have tests thrown out or covered up as part of a widespread state sponsored doping program.

And we have Efimova who tested positive for a supplement (only legal in the west; DHEA; for the record our top 400m runner also tested positive at around the same time as Efimova...also for a supplement) served a suspension and who later tested positive for a medication prescribed by her doctor that she ceased prior to it being banned.

Yeah, you are right, I shouldn't compare them at all.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong again. Lewis did test positive for very low levels of substances found in common cold meds, ginseng and the like. They were found at such low levels that, under international (not USOC) protocols, the results did not warrant disclosure or punishment, but rather further examination. After that examination, it was determined there was no evidence he was using these substances as a performance enhancer, a finding with which the IAAF concurred. In fact, they were found at levels that had the test been conducted just two years later (1988), there would have been no positive finding at all.
Contrary to your assertion, there was no cover up and no evidence Lewis used anything to improve his performance.

The U.S. Olympic Committee did the right thing by clearing Carl Lewis and other athletes after investigating elevated findings from drug tests performed before the 1988 Seoul Olympic Games, track and field's world governing body announced Wednesday.

The USOC followed the rules in dealing with eight positive tests -- for the stimulant ephedrine and chemical cousins in "low concentration" -- at the 1988 U.S. Olympic trials, the International Assn. of Athletics Federations said in a statement issued from its Monte Carlo offices.

The USOC "properly concluded" that each of the cases did not amount to doping under the rules in place at the time, the IAAF said, adding that those athletes who were tested, investigated and then competed later that year at the Seoul Games -- sprinters Lewis and Joe DeLoach among them -- were affirmatively eligible.

"It's black and white," IAAF spokesman Nick Davies said in a telephone interview. "No rules were broken. There was no foul play."

http://articles.latimes.com/2003/may/01/sports/sp-oly1

As for Efimova and her use of banned substances, it's apparent by now that neither of us are going to change the other's mind, so there's no point in rehashing it over and over.

[forgetful]

I'm sorry, but you're wrong again. Lewis did test positive for very low levels of substances found in common cold meds, ginseng and the like. They were found at such low levels that, under international (not USOC) protocols, the results did not warrant disclosure or punishment, but rather further examination. After that examination, it was determined there was no evidence he was using these substances as a performance enhancer, a finding with which the IAAF concurred. In fact, they were found at levels that had the test been conducted just two years later (1988), there would have been no positive finding at all.
Contrary to your assertion, there was no cover up and no evidence Lewis used anything to improve his performance.

The U.S. Olympic Committee did the right thing by clearing Carl Lewis and other athletes after investigating elevated findings from drug tests performed before the 1988 Seoul Olympic Games, track and field's world governing body announced Wednesday.

The USOC followed the rules in dealing with eight positive tests -- for the stimulant ephedrine and chemical cousins in "low concentration" -- at the 1988 U.S. Olympic trials, the International Assn. of Athletics Federations said in a statement issued from its Monte Carlo offices.

The USOC "properly concluded" that each of the cases did not amount to doping under the rules in place at the time, the IAAF said, adding that those athletes who were tested, investigated and then competed later that year at the Seoul Games -- sprinters Lewis and Joe DeLoach among them -- were affirmatively eligible.

"It's black and white," IAAF spokesman Nick Davies said in a telephone interview. "No rules were broken. There was no foul play."

http://articles.latimes.com/2003/may/01/sports/sp-oly1

As for Efimova and her use of banned substances, it's apparent by now that neither of us are going to change the other's mind, so there's no point in rehashing it over and over.

What your article leaves out is that the "cousins" in the combination they were found were routinely used as masking agents to hide steroid cycles.

And that his tests were part of a rampant coverup by the USOC.

And I'm fine with dropping the Efimova discussion.  I never claimed she was a saint, but by no means did she deserve to be called out like she has. 

The US has far more violators of doping, and with more serious drugs than Efimova.

[GGGG]

Holy crap.  Someone from South Africa just smashed Michael Johnson's 17 year old world record in the 400. 

[MU82]

This Bolt kid is pretty good.

[brewcity77]

This Bolt kid is pretty good.

This Biles kid isn't bad either.

[GooooMarquette]

van Niekerk, Bolt, Biles all with amazing performances tonight.

Also cool to see Jimmy and other team USA hoops players at the Walsh-Jennings/Ross beach volleyball match.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

van Niekerk, Bolt, Biles all with amazing performances tonight.

Also cool to see Jimmy and other team USA hoops players at the women's beach volleyball match.

Don't know what was in the cups they had but they sure looked like they were having a good time.

[tower912]

Did you see Bolt's reaction when he walked out and saw van Niekirk's time?     Priceless.    And perfectly encapsulating what this is supposed to be about. 

[GooooMarquette]

Did you see Bolt's reaction when he walked out and saw van Niekirk's time?     Priceless.    And perfectly encapsulating what this is supposed to be about.

Yep, it was awesome.  And after Bolt won his race, he had a nice conversation with van Niekirk in the stands.  Lots of mutual respect.