Big East Coaching Stability.

[MU82]

Buzz ... Crean ... even Shaka F. Smart ...

Great coaches until they weren't.

[bilsu]

Funny you should bring up the preseason coaches polls and Buzz doing more with less. Going into Buzz's last season guess where Marquette was predicted to finish in the Big East by said coaches? That's right, first place. And then? Buzz's hard working, gritty, grinding team finished 17-15 overall, out of the NCAA Tournament, out of the NIT. Maybe his athletic, hard working, non shooting players needed to work a little harder?

Here's the thing. I'm not sure why you are comparing Virginia Tech to Marquette. What does VT have to do with MU? Burt was a head coach taking over a program where the former head coach wasn't taking over a different program, so not only did he get to bring his own MU recruits with him, he also got VT's recruits as well. So that's basically 2 recruiting classes before Wojo ever got one, considering Wojo was an assistant coach who didn't get to bring along a recruiting class with him from the school he was coaching at, and the former coach at the program he was taking over took nearly the entire recruiting class with him. So Buzz is bringing in essentially his 4th recruiting class to VT while Wojo is bringing in essentially his 2nd recruiting class to MU. It shouldn't be all that surprising why one program might be a little further along in their rebuild. They've had twice as many recruiting classes to work with.

The same reason I always compared Buzz's year to Crean's year. Old departed (traitor) coach vs. new coach. Buzz of course had a huge advantage his first year vs. Crean. I was interested in seeing how long it would take Crean to surpass Buzz. Crean won, because he is still at Indiana, but I do not think Crean has had the success he envisioned by jumping to school that would be much easier to recruit for. Buzz in his 6 years made the elite 8 and Crean in 8 years has not. Now I compare Wojo's results to the old coach's (Buzz) results. Especially since Buzz basically said he left because the New Big East would not be good (jerk'). I definitely want Wojo (MU) to have much greater success than Virginia Tech. That is why I follow the progress of the two programs. It is only year three, so it is really to early to tell. In the end Wojo will probably win, because he will still be at MU when Buzz is gone from Virginia Tech. Besides that I just do not buy the argument that a bare cupboard two years ago is a valid excuse for not making the tournament this year. That is why I brought up the comparison here, which was pointing out that their first year both team's finished last in their conference so they were comparatively mediocre at the start. Does anybody here really think it acceptable to not finish in the top half of the conference? Finishing 5th most years is going to result in an NCAA tournament bid.

[MU82]

The same reason I always compared Buzz's year to Crean's year. Old departed (traitor) coach vs. new coach. Buzz of course had a huge advantage his first year vs. Crean. I was interested in seeing how long it would take Crean to surpass Buzz. Crean won, because he is still at Indiana, but I do not think Crean has had the success he envisioned by jumping to school that would be much easier to recruit for. Buzz in his 6 years made the elite 8 and Crean in 8 years has not. Now I compare Wojo's results to the old coach's (Buzz) results. Especially since Buzz basically said he left because the New Big East would not be good (jerk'). I definitely want Wojo (MU) to have much greater success than Virginia Tech. That is why I follow the progress of the two programs. It is only year three, so it is really to early to tell. In the end Wojo will probably win, because he will still be at MU when Buzz is gone from Virginia Tech. Besides that I just do not buy the argument that a bare cupboard two years ago is a valid excuse for not making the tournament this year. That is why I brought up the comparison here, which was pointing out that their first year both team's finished last in their conference so they were comparatively mediocre at the start. Does anybody here really think it acceptable to not finish in the top half of the conference? Finishing 5th most years is going to result in an NCAA tournament bid.

Yes, given the circumstances, I believe it was acceptable that Marquette didn't finish in the top half of the Big East in either of Wojo's first two seasons.

[jsglow]

Here's what's being lost on some.  Wojo seems committed to building a sustainable winning culture.  So we've brought in mostly Frosh interested in the long haul. We should start to see some fruit this year and especially next.  And of course mixing in the occasional transfer supplements that process.  But let's not count a very good Carlino. He almost single handedly kept us from being an 8 win team.

[GGGG]

Do people forget that Buzz was left with three basically four year starters and a junior that eventually became a first round pick?  How on gods green earth can you compare that to the trash pile that Wojo was left with?

If Buzz would have stuck around, his team two years ago would have sucked as well. Probably why he left in the first place.

[jsglow]

Do people forget that Buzz was left with three basically four year starters and a junior that eventually became a first round pick?  How on gods green earth can you compare that to the trash pile that Wojo was left with?

If Buzz would have stuck around, his team two years ago would have sucked as well. Probably why he left in the first place.

+1

[Nukem2]

Do people forget that Buzz was left with three basically four year starters and a junior that eventually became a first round pick?  How on gods green earth can you compare that to the trash pile that Wojo was left with?

If Buzz would have stuck around, his team two years ago would have sucked as well. Probably why he left in the first place.

+1 as well.

[Lennys Tap]

Do people forget that Buzz was left with three basically four year starters and a junior that eventually became a first round pick?  How on gods green earth can you compare that to the trash pile that Wojo was left with?

Butler was a sophomore, not a junior. And Buzz wasn't "left" with him by Crean. He committed to Buzz and MU a couple of weeks after Buzz got the job and was a key to Buzz's rebuild.

The other 3 guys, yes - Buzz was left with a very good team in year 1. For year 2, he was left with Lazar, Cubillan and Acker. And got a 6 seed in the NCAAs. For year 2, Wojo was left with Luke Fischer, Duane Wilson and JJJ. And finished sub .500 in conference and didn't even make the NIT. Whose "rebuild" would you say was better?

[GooooMarquette]

Do people forget that Buzz was left with three basically four year starters and a junior that eventually became a first round pick?  How on gods green earth can you compare that to the trash pile that Wojo was left with?

If Buzz would have stuck around, his team two years ago would have sucked as well. Probably why he left in the first place.

Another +1

Buzz was handed 4 of MU's 9 all-time leading scorers (Jerel, Lazar, Dominic and Wesley).  His only job that first year was not to screw things up....

[GooooMarquette]

Butler was a sophomore, not a junior. And Buzz wasn't "left" with him by Crean. He committed to Buzz and MU a couple of weeks after Buzz got the job and was a key to Buzz's rebuild.

Sultan wasn't talking about Butler.  He was referring to Jerel, Dominic and Wesley (Seniors) and Lazar (Junior who became a first round pick).  All were "left" to Buzz by TC.

[jsglow]

Butler was a sophomore, not a junior. And Buzz wasn't "left" with him by Crean. He committed to Buzz and MU a couple of weeks after Buzz got the job and was a key to Buzz's rebuild.

The other 3 guys, yes - Buzz was left with a very good team in year 1. For year 2, he was left with Lazar, Cubillan and Acker. And got a 6 seed in the NCAAs. For year 2, Wojo was left with Luke Fischer, Duane Wilson and JJJ. And finished sub .500 in conference and didn't even make the NIT. Whose "rebuild" would you say was better?

And let's remember that by Buzz' second year Jimmy was a Junior, an emerging young star and the key guy in the late season OT run that propelled them to the tourney.  No doubt he was very key to the early success of the Buzz era.  Oh, and now he's an all star and will be an Olympic gold medalist after having over 30 teams pass him in the draft. 

[brewcity77]

And let's remember that by Buzz' second year Jimmy was a Junior, an emerging young star and the key guy in the late season OT run that propelled them to the tourney.  No doubt he was very key to the early success of the Buzz era.  Oh, and now he's an all star and will be an Olympic gold medalist after having over 30 teams pass him in the draft.

That's a mathematical impossibility, as there are only 30 NBA teams and he was drafted 30th. At most, 29 teams could have passed on him 29 times, and some of them (including the Bulls) had multiple picks, so it was even fewer than that.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Butler was a sophomore, not a junior. And Buzz wasn't "left" with him by Crean. He committed to Buzz and MU a couple of weeks after Buzz got the job and was a key to Buzz's rebuild.

The other 3 guys, yes - Buzz was left with a very good team in year 1. For year 2, he was left with Lazar, Cubillan and Acker. And got a 6 seed in the NCAAs. For year 2, Wojo was left with Luke Fischer, Duane Wilson and JJJ. And finished sub .500 in conference and didn't even make the NIT. Whose "rebuild" would you say was better?

Lazar not Butler

Edit: Goooo beat me to it

[MU82]

Butler was a sophomore, not a junior. And Buzz wasn't "left" with him by Crean. He committed to Buzz and MU a couple of weeks after Buzz got the job and was a key to Buzz's rebuild.

The other 3 guys, yes - Buzz was left with a very good team in year 1. For year 2, he was left with Lazar, Cubillan and Acker. And got a 6 seed in the NCAAs. For year 2, Wojo was left with Luke Fischer, Duane Wilson and JJJ. And finished sub .500 in conference and didn't even make the NIT. Whose "rebuild" would you say was better?

Wojo's rebuild is incomplete. We'll have to see.

But Wojo started from ground zero or darn close to it, Buzz did not have to. Buzz was able to come out of the blocks playing winning basketball, continuing to set a tone for the program. He was able to recruit saying, "We've been to the NCAAs for 4 straight years, and we're in the best conference in America, come join us." Wojo certainly has not had that. Nor has Wojo had carte blanche to recruit the Jae Crowders of the world.

Lenny, you know I'm not a Buzz hater. I am one who appreciates what he did here -- and I appreciated Crean, too, for that matter. But to say Buzz didn't have major, major advantages over Wojo early on, I think you know that's wrong.

[bilsu]

Yes, given the circumstances, I believe it was acceptable that Marquette didn't finish in the top half of the Big East in either of Wojo's first two seasons.

I am not talking the first two seasons. I am talking this season and the future. You can always have a down year, but what are your expectations for the MU program? Up until two years ago we never finished worse than 9-9 in the Big East. I think that is what should be expected and by year three that is what we should be achieving. At 8-10 last year we almost got there and we would of made it, if we did not lose a home game to DePaul. 9-9 this year ( a one win improvement) is not unreasonable expectations.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I am not talking the first two seasons. I am talking this season and the future. You can always have a down year, but what are your expectations for the MU program? Up until two years ago we never finished worse than 9-9 in the Big East. I think that is what should be expected and by year three that is what we should be achieving. At 8-10 last year we almost got there and we would of made it, if we did not lose a home game to DePaul. 9-9 this year ( a one win improvement) is not unreasonable expectations.

I agree in principal. But I think that the BEast is going to be so strong and top heavy that you could go 9-9 and still finish in the bottom half of the conference.

I think the BEast has seven top 50 teams in it this season. Every game is going to be a battle.

[brewcity77]

I agree in principal. But I think that the BEast is going to be so strong and top heavy that you could go 9-9 and still finish in the bottom half of the conference.

I think the BEast has seven top 50 teams in it this season. Every game is going to be a battle.

I agree with this and think it's a big part of why the noncon is so important. Right now I feel Villanova and Xavier are tourney locks, but Creighton, Seton Hall, Butler, Georgetown, and Marquette could all be tourney worthy teams. 9 Big East wins and 19 total wins should give any of those teams a decent case.

[MU82]

I am not talking the first two seasons. I am talking this season and the future. You can always have a down year, but what are your expectations for the MU program? Up until two years ago we never finished worse than 9-9 in the Big East. I think that is what should be expected and by year three that is what we should be achieving. At 8-10 last year we almost got there and we would of made it, if we did not lose a home game to DePaul. 9-9 this year ( a one win improvement) is not unreasonable expectations.

Depending upon circumstances, I agree those are not unreasonable expectations for the upcoming season and beyond.

[Lennys Tap]

Sultan wasn't talking about Butler.  He was referring to Jerel, Dominic and Wesley (Seniors) and Lazar (Junior who became a first round pick).  All were "left" to Buzz by TC.

I stand corrected.

[jsglow]

That's a mathematical impossibility, as there are only 30 NBA teams and he was drafted 30th. At most, 29 teams could have passed on him 29 times, and some of them (including the Bulls) had multiple picks, so it was even fewer than that.

Okay, fine. You win.

[wadesworld]

Okay, fine. You win.

Don't give up that easily. If you're the last pick of the first round, the team that selected you could in theory have had an earlier pick in the first round and not taken you, while all other teams could've either picked someone else or traded their pick instead of taking you, so while it didn't happen that way, it's also not a mathematical impossibility. It's possible, just didn't happen that way.

[Herman Cain]

I agree with this and think it's a big part of why the noncon is so important. Right now I feel Villanova and Xavier are tourney locks, but Creighton, Seton Hall, Butler, Georgetown, and Marquette could all be tourney worthy teams. 9 Big East wins and 19 total wins should give any of those teams a decent case.

Once again the non conference is going to be the make or break for  every team in The Big East. Everyone will chew each other up in conference. I am still aggrieved over the fact we did not schedule the full 13 non conference games.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Once again the non conference is going to be the make or break for  every team in The Big East. Everyone will chew each other up in conference. I am still aggrieved over the fact we did not schedule the full 13 non conference games.

You are right, the non-conference is important. That's why scheduling 12 teams instead of 12 teams plus an RPI suck like Grambling is a great idea.

[brewcity77]

Don't give up that easily. If you're the last pick of the first round, the team that selected you could in theory have had an earlier pick in the first round and not taken you, while all other teams could've either picked someone else or traded their pick instead of taking you, so while it didn't happen that way, it's also not a mathematical impossibility. It's possible, just didn't happen that way.

Well, there's still not over 30 teams in the league that could have passed on him

[wadesworld]

Well, there's still not over 30 teams in the league that could have passed on him

That's why some (at least 2, since the team who picked that player would've would've had an earlier first round pick) had to trade their first round pick (meaning passing up on a chance to draft that player) to the other teams without a first round pick.