MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: muwarrior69 on July 24, 2016, 03:04:57 PM
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I don't have insider privileges. If someone does I was wondering if any coaches besides Mullen were considering other opportunities.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/insider/story/_/id/17014946/stability-rankings-big-east-basketball-coaches
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Insider only?
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I'll copy Wojo's
He didn't inherit much from Buzz Williams, and he struggled in his rookie campaign. This past season was an improvement with 20 wins, but there was no postseason appearance. Now Wojo will have some pressure to get to the NCAA tournament over the next two years, and he'll have to do it without Henry Ellenson, who left for the NBA after just one season. Wojo did get a two-year extension in 2015 that runs through 2022, but he'll need to get to the tournament in the next couple of years or else he'll feel the heat.
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3rd least stable with Mullin and Leito only ones behind him.
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I'll copy Wojo's
He didn't inherit much from Buzz Williams, and he struggled in his rookie campaign. This past season was an improvement with 20 wins, but there was no postseason appearance. Now Wojo will have some pressure to get to the NCAA tournament over the next two years, and he'll have to do it without Henry Ellenson, who left for the NBA after just one season. Wojo did get a two-year extension in 2015 that runs through 2022, but he'll need to get to the tournament in the next couple of years or else he'll feel the heat.
Wojo is not on any hot seat. Lovell is in love with him and he is recruiting a lot of good talent.
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Wojo is not on any hot seat. Lovell is in love with him and he is recruiting a lot of good talent.
His seat is gonna be pretty warm if there's no postseason play next year. It's not too much to ask for a NCAA tournament in 3 seasons.
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His seat is gonna be pretty warm if there's no postseason play next year. It's not too much to ask for a NCAA tournament in 3 seasons.
I give him 4 seasons. That first season was a total throwaway given the circumstances.
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I give him 4 seasons. That first season was a total throwaway given the circumstances.
But in reality, we should expect to make the tournament every year with the occasional off year. Even Kentucky and North Carolina miss the tourney from time to time, but not 3 straight years.
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Honestly no substance to the article. Here's there ranking of coach stability from least to most and a brief summary of their justification:
1. Chris Mullin-Look bored last season
2. Dave Leitao- Depaul is a tough gig
3. Wojo- Will be on the hotseat if 3 years of no postseason (not true)
4. Kevin Willard- Was on hot seat but will get extended if he makes the ncaa again
5. JT3 - Poor postseason performance but his last name is Thompson
6. Chris Holtmann- Was mentioned with Georgia Tech job and could be mentioned with more
7. Chris Mack- Will stay unless a blue blood come calling
8. Jay Wright- Will stay unless the NBA comes calling
9. Ed Cooley- Providence native who has had a ton of success
10. Too successful to get rid of, not enough to be poached
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But in reality, we should expect to make the tournament every year with the occasional off year. Even Kentucky and North Carolina miss the tourney from time to time, but not 3 straight years.
Yeah, remember 2013 Kentucky loses in the First round of the NIT to Robert Morris..........Robert Morris never Trailed in the game.
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Gotta wait 5 years ta judge, ai na?
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Yeah, remember 2013 Kentucky loses in the First round of the NIT to Robert Morris..........Robert Morris never Trailed in the game.
That's what I was referring to. I don't expect anybody to make the tourney every single year but 3 years without a post season is silly.
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That's what I was referring to. I don't expect anybody to make the tourney every single year but 3 years without a post season is silly.
your expectations of us being Kentucky or UNC may be delusional at best. if that is your expectation i would suggest getting a secondary degree (not from UK unless you want to toss your $ away).
unless you want to be disappointed you should drop the expectations down a notch.
edit: queue the "i only judge MU hoops success from 2003 and forward" vs. "easy there young man, we had great periods of success and 'failure' long before you were in the work force so respect the process......success will come" debate
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your expectations of us being Kentucky or UNC may be delusional at best. if that is your expectation i would suggest getting a secondary degree (not from UK unless you want to toss your $ away).
unless you want to be disappointed you should drop the expectations down a notch.
edit: queue the "i only judge MU hoops success from 2003 and forward" vs. "easy there young man, we had great periods of success and 'failure' long before you were in the work force so respect the process......success will come" debate
I know, but is it really too much to ask to make a postseason appearance almost every year? If MU doesn't make it this year, that's 4 straight years. Yes I know one (probably two) were due to Bazz, but it's not like I'm setting unreasonable expectations here.
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Administration (Lovell) is exceptionally pleased with Wojo. The relationship is superb. It is viewed that Wojo is a perfect cultural fit for the University. There is no hot seat. The desire is for stability and riding out the down times in favor of a long term approach. Period. He is likely our coach for a substantial period of time.
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JTIII should be a lot higher on the list, IMO. G'Town, in addition to us, has been the biggest disappointment in the New Big East.
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The rankings make no sense. Leitao is at a place where the expectations and resources have long been near zero. If he even gets them to the top half of the BE every third or fourth season, they'll probably build a statue of him on campus.
And if JTIII gets credit for his last name (i.e. past connections with the program), shouldn't Mullin too?
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JTIII should be a lot higher on the list, IMO. G'Town, in addition to us, has been the biggest disappointment in the New Big East.
I don't think we should be judged on the same merits as Georgetown. Yes, conventional wisdom at the founding of the new Big East was "we were right-at-the- top competitive in arguably the greatest league there ever was, so we will make mince-meat of the new league." But then...Vander brain fart....Epic disaster re the Pilarz/LW/Buzz dynamic... Buzz sees writing on proverbial wall and decides he has done enough for the program, and since he feels as if he better cut n run before the decision isn't his, leaves an absolutely bare cupboard just as we are trying to gain a foothold in the new league.
Coach WOJO came to our absolute rescue, and was exactly what we needed at that crucial juncture. We have not only a storied history, but an amazing knack as a program to get the best fit possible at the exact time we need it. Major kudos to Bill Cords. KO built back a left-for-dead, moribund program. When he left, we needed stability and a tactical eye, and got that in spades with Mike Deane. Tom Crean was a public-relations bonanza when energy and enthusiasm for the program were on the wane.
After TC's maddening and depressing departure to Indiana, we needed a guy with a full-on chip on his shoulder and something to prove, and Buzz Williams was ordained by God to coach for post-TC Marquette! He was just the guy to make a bunch of jilted, pushed-around players ready to jump through walls of fire for him. He added more junkyard dogs to his pound, and the lack of media respect from the usual guilty parties, cough, ESPN, only shoveled more coal into his blast furnace. There was definitely a down-side to his approach, and there were some embarrassing and sad moments amidst all the winning.
I always knew if/when we lost Buzz, he would not leave well, and his UNO departure tipped his hand. All this said, Steve Wojciechowski was born to coach here. We could not have landed a better fit for what we want to be. You can just see the type of people he is recruiting...actual students who have an amazing aptitude for highly skilled, team-style basketball. Buzz should be lauded for turning good kids lives around, and he recruited to his style (see the "F with em" comment vs UW). Wojo is ahead-of-schedule, all things considered. As good as a fit as he is for our university, the new BigEast may be an even better fit for MU. Special conference for a special coach at an extraordinary place. Patience.
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His seat is gonna be pretty warm if there's no postseason play next year. It's not too much to ask for a NCAA tournament in 3 seasons.
In a more perfect world you are correct.
Unfortunately , the President of the University is still star struck by the Duke connection. Look at the body language when you see these two together. The new AD is a corporate hack kind of guy and follows lock stop with his boss( it is good work if you can get it so I don't blame him) and will tow the company line so no help there.
So , until we get a new MU President , we are stuck with Wojo and will have to make the best of the situation for quite a while. The way I look at it, at least Wojo is a good recruiter, which is why I eagerly applaud all his recruiting efforts . That way, If Lovell eventually comes to his senses, the new coach that succeeds Wojo will arrive with a full cupboard. Wojos lousy coaching is why I am keen on getting some 20 win seasons while we are not making tournaments. Optically the 20 wins gives the impression to the media and casual observers that we are still relevant in the upper tier of the game. Which is why it is silly not to have the 31st game. Someday we will hire a good young coach who is a proven winner and knows how to motivate kids once they are actually on campus. In the meantime Wojo can keep bringing in guys like Hauser, Howard, Eke, Bailey etc and we will at least be able to tread water until help arrives. If we can get Lewis, John and Tillman the new coach will have a decent baseline of junior and senior talent when he arrives.
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In a more perfect world you are correct.
Unfortunately , the President of the University is still star struck by the Duke connection. Look at the body language when you see these two together. The new AD is a corporate hack kind of guy and follows lock stop with his boss( it is good work if you can get it so I don't blame him) and will tow the company line so no help there.
So , until we get a new MU President , we are stuck with Wojo and will have to make the best of the situation for quite a while. The way I look at it, at least Wojo is a good recruiter, which is why I eagerly applaud all his recruiting efforts . That way, If Lovell eventually comes to his senses, the new coach that succeeds Wojo will arrive with a full cupboard. Wojos lousy coaching is why I am keen on getting some 20 win seasons while we are not making tournaments. Optically the 20 wins gives the impression to the media and casual observers that we are still relevant in the upper tier of the game. Which is why it is silly not to have the 31st game. Someday we will hire a good young coach who is a proven winner and knows how to motivate kids once they are actually on campus. In the meantime Wojo can keep bringing in guys like Hauser, Howard, Eke, Bailey etc and we will at least be able to tread water until help arrives. If we can get Lewis, John and Tillman the new coach will have a decent baseline of junior and senior talent when he arrives.
What you see as Lovell/Scholl/Cords being "star-struck by the Duke connection", I see as L/S/C being convinced they got the perfect post-Buzz hire, just as Buzz was the perfect post-Crean guy, Crean post-Deane, Deane post-O'Neill, ONeill post-Dukiet. And there the chain breaks...lol, although Majerus post-Raymonds wasn't a bad set-up, it's just that guys with no patience and little to go by to judge the new coach's acumen (like MU fan in NY ) jumped the gun on Rick and a gem was lost forever. Thankfully, said gem continued to hold MU close to his heart up until his untimely passing.
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Wojo is not on any hot seat. Lovell is in love with him and he is recruiting a lot of good talent.
If we finish in the bottom of the big East without a ncaa appearance his seat is going to be on hot coals.
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If we finish in the bottom of the big East without a ncaa appearance his seat is going to be on hot coals.
Well, maybe on imaginary ones inside your head. But not with anyone that actually matters.
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Personally, I don't get this debate - of course Wojo has 100% unwavering support. If he doesn't they should just fire him otherwise you get yourself into a Buzz situation or have programs using it to recruit against you.
On the flip side, to act like the results over the next couple seasons do not impact this support at some future date is silly. If we don't start winning again Wojo will be gone.
Good news is everyone knows this and is trying their best to ensure it doesn't happen.
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I see it this way: I'm disappointed that we have not really even gotten close to post-season play since Wojo has been here, but there isn't a part of me that doesn't think he's building this team the right way. We swung for the fences with Henry hoping we could accelerate the process. We missed. Maybe that hurt us under the theory of replacement (assuming there was another reasonably ranked recruit that would have come in his place and developed for 4 years), but I don't think any other team would have done differently.
I expect us to compete for postseason play this year, but I don't expect we get it. I hope to see the start of a successful run, and I hope to see continued situational coaching improvements. Honestly, I think the hot seat starts when the remnants of the Buzz era are gone and the success doesn't come. I'm optimistic that we won't get to that point.
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I know, but is it really too much to ask to make a postseason appearance almost every year? If MU doesn't make it this year, that's 4 straight years. Yes I know one (probably two) were due to Bazz, but it's not like I'm setting unreasonable expectations here.
You are being unreasonable because if MU fires Wojo who are they going to get who's better. A coaching change leading to improvement is not a given.
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In a more perfect world you are correct.
Unfortunately , the President of the University is still star struck by the Duke connection. Look at the body language when you see these two together. The new AD is a corporate hack kind of guy and follows lock stop with his boss( it is good work if you can get it so I don't blame him) and will tow the company line so no help there.
So , until we get a new MU President , we are stuck with Wojo and will have to make the best of the situation for quite a while. The way I look at it, at least Wojo is a good recruiter, which is why I eagerly applaud all his recruiting efforts . That way, If Lovell eventually comes to his senses, the new coach that succeeds Wojo will arrive with a full cupboard. Wojos lousy coaching is why I am keen on getting some 20 win seasons while we are not making tournaments. Optically the 20 wins gives the impression to the media and casual observers that we are still relevant in the upper tier of the game. Which is why it is silly not to have the 31st game. Someday we will hire a good young coach who is a proven winner and knows how to motivate kids once they are actually on campus. In the meantime Wojo can keep bringing in guys like Hauser, Howard, Eke, Bailey etc and we will at least be able to tread water until help arrives. If we can get Lewis, John and Tillman the new coach will have a decent baseline of junior and senior talent when he arrives.
Damn. Wow. I really didn't think that you could possibly cause me to lose more respect for you, but you succeeded.
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What you see as Lovell/Scholl/Cords being "star-struck by the Duke connection", I see as L/S/C being convinced they got the perfect post-Buzz hire, just as Buzz was the perfect post-Crean guy, Crean post-Deane, Deane post-O'Neill, ONeill post-Dukiet. And there the chain breaks...lol, although Majerus post-Raymonds wasn't a bad set-up, it's just that guys with no patience and little to go by to judge the new coach's acumen (like MU fan in NY ) jumped the gun on Rick and a gem was lost forever. Thankfully, said gem continued to hold MU close to his heart up until his untimely passing.
Were you around for Deane replacing O'Neill? Because I just don't see a guy whose recruiting was negligent, at best, being the perfect replacement for anyone.
He did get a nice drunk on.
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Look, if we do not make the NCAA in 2017, Wojo will be on the hot seat.
Count on it!
I don't care how big President Lovell's man crush on Wojo might be, money talks. The cash cow that is the basketball program will start coming up dry if things don't turn around soon. Those of you who do not see this probably spent too much time in Political Science, Sociology or Philosophy.
What basketball means to Marquette is not unlike what football means to Notre Dame. Our student body is more diverse because of the visibility of our basketball program. The buildings, the campus improvements and even some of the environmental improvements around the Marquette neighborhood would never have been possible without the direct and indirect contribution of the basketball program.
Please remember something... all Marquette fandom is divided into threes. The first is anyone who went to Marquette between 1964 and 1980. We think we have a God-given right to fight for an NCAA Championship every year. That's because we know it is possible. The second group is anyone who attended Marquette between 1981 and 1990 or during the Deane years. They don't think we can do anything right -- and will stumble on our own toes. The third group went to MU during the Crean and Hillbilly years and saw the latest Final Four and the success the Hillbilly had. They think as soon as Wojo gets good, he's gone.
Two of those three groups see the NCAA tournament as the basis for success. There years in a row without the NCAA is a problem for both of those groups.
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Look, if we do not make the NCAA in 2017, Wojo will be on the hot seat.
Count on it!
I don't care how big President Lovell's man crush on Wojo might be, money talks. The cash cow that is the basketball program will start coming up dry if things don't turn around soon. Those of you who do not see this probably spent too much time in Political Science, Sociology or Philosophy.
What basketball means to Marquette is not unlike what football means to Notre Dame. Our student body is more diverse because of the visibility of our basketball program. The buildings, the campus improvements and even some of the environmental improvements around the Marquette neighborhood would never have been possible without the direct and indirect contribution of the basketball program.
Please remember something... all Marquette fandom is divided into threes. The first is anyone who went to Marquette between 1964 and 1980. We think we have a God-given right to fight for an NCAA Championship every year. That's because we know it is possible. The second group is anyone who attended Marquette between 1981 and 1990 or during the Deane years. They don't think we can do anything right -- and will stumble on our own toes. The third group went to MU during the Crean and Hillbilly years and saw the latest Final Four and the success the Hillbilly had. They think as soon as Wojo gets good, he's gone.
Two of those three groups see the NCAA tournament as the basis for success. There years in a row without the NCAA is a problem for both of those groups.
Wojo will not be on the hot seat after this year, NCAA Tournament or not.
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Were you around for Deane replacing O'Neill? Because I just don't see a guy whose recruiting was negligent, at best, being the perfect replacement for anyone.
He did get a nice drunk on.
Mike might have been the best coach at MU, the one problem is he did not like to recruit and thought MU could never get back to the top due to the administration
back then. Times change, thanks DWade, Crean good or bad helped turn the program, Kevin O'Neal as well. Having the 3 Wisconsin kids his first year really helped
turn the program. Crean built on that, Buzz as well, unfortunately Buzz left the cupboard empty when he left. Buzz went JC and turned MU around. Wojo does not
come from that world, plus the administration got tired of questionable characters in the program.
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In his first two years, Wojo is 12-24 in BE play. He doubled the BE win total from 4 to 8, albeit with a first round NBA pick in Henry.
Season Three will be a difficult task without Henry and the lack of size upfront, with Fischer being the only starter with some bulk. If Fischer continues his ability to get two fouls in the first five minutes, the more difficult.
If MU stays on course with another losing BE play season in season three, which for sure will not get an NCAA did, then season four will be the barometer. Another sub par season in 2017-2018 and there is no doubt the seat will be warm.
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I would guess if there is no NCAA in 2017 and 2018 his seat will be hot. It won't be hot if we miss this year, although I'm optimistic we'll make it.
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I would guess if there is no NCAA in 2017 and 2018 his seat will be hot. It won't be hot if we miss this year, although I'm optimistic we'll make it.
This is a pretty good depth and almost all the players can play, Cohen and Sacre will have to up there game or they maybe at the stuck at the end of the bench
the whole year. Cohen probably will play some as he can defend a little. But having 10 other kids with some ability means Wojo as a coach will have to figure out
how to play them during the game. They have some experience this year, but no height. Have to outscore there opponent this year.
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I would guess if there is no NCAA in 2017 and 2018 his seat will be hot. It won't be hot if we miss this year, although I'm optimistic we'll make it.
+1.
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I don't think the seat gets hot without a tourney bid next year as long as there's clear progress. If we make the NIT this year, that will be considered progress. If we miss the next two years, then I could see the seat getting toasty. Great relationships are nice and all, but boosters will eventuality want tangible results. NIT in 2017 and NCAA in 2018 would be that, even if it's not as fast as fans would like. Wojo is building this team to be good when guys like Cheatham, Carter, and Heldt are upperclassmen.
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There was undeniable progress from year one to year two. More talent is going to help with year three so I expect more progress. Maybe not enough to make the tournament.
Not sure that Wojo is going to get MU to the same heights that Buzz did, but I think he will develop into a good college coach.
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Wojo will not be on the hot seat after this year, NCAA Tournament or not.
To be candid, I hope this isn't an issue because our Warriors make the NCAA.
I'll acknowledge Wojo inherited a train wreck. Bad decisions by some of our players; bad decisions by the Hillbilly; and, ultimately, a horses**t coach who cut and run with a nasty shot at us didn't help. But we've had a couple of great recruiting classes and now is the time to show progress. A lot of us have been patient because we knew getting this train back up on the rails would take time.
Like any other job, you're measured by your success -- ultimately in dollars and cents. If we get to the tournament and make enough progress to be in the upper half of the Big East, great. If we don't and there is no heat on our coach, then there has to be some serious questions about our program.
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To be candid, I hope this isn't an issue because our Warriors make the NCAA.
I'll acknowledge Wojo inherited a train wreck. Bad decisions by some of our players; bad decisions by the Hillbilly; and, ultimately, a horses**t coach who cut and run with a nasty shot at us didn't help. But we've had a couple of great recruiting classes and now is the time to show progress. A lot of us have been patient because we knew getting this train back up on the rails would take time.
Like any other job, you're measured by your success -- ultimately in dollars and cents. If we get to the tournament and make enough progress to be in the upper half of the Big East, great. If we don't and there is no heat on our coach, then there has to be some serious questions about our program.
No, there doesn't. His first recruiting class to Marquette is going into its sophomore year. They are still underclassmen. He was left with absolutely nothing and came in to completely flip the program. We should all hope for an NCAA Tournament, but it's tough to expect that in year 3 of a demolition and rebuild. We saw improvements from year 1 to year 2. We need to see improvements from year 2 to year 3. That doesn't require an NCAA Tournament appearance. Year 4 is when we need to start seeing the results on the court. If we don't, that's when his seat will go from ice cold to room temperature.
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Year 4 is when we need to start seeing the results on the court. If we don't, that's when his seat will go from ice cold to room temperature.
So you agree with all of us then. When we say he's on the hot seat if he doesn't make it this year were not saying he's going to be fired. We're saying that he must have complete success in year 4.
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So you agree with all of us then. When we say he's on the hot seat if he doesn't make it this year were not saying he's going to be fired. We're saying that he must have complete success in year 4.
Hence why I said +1 to your post. He needs to be in NCAA Tournament come March 2018 or his seat will be room temperature. My original response to dgies was to when he said:
Look, if we do not make the NCAA in 2017, Wojo will be on the hot seat.
Count on it!
I don't care how big President Lovell's man crush on Wojo might be, money talks. The cash cow that is the basketball program will start coming up dry if things don't turn around soon. Those of you who do not see this probably spent too much time in Political Science, Sociology or Philosophy.
That's simply false.
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Well, maybe on imaginary ones inside your head. But not with anyone that actually matters.
Considering the amount of money that MU spends on hoops, it will matter rather soon to those who write checks.
http://www.businessinsider.com/these-20-schools-spend-the-most-money-on-their-basketball-teams-2012-1#4-marquette-17
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At the end of the day Marquette needs to start winning. I think the powers that be want to win with more dignity than we did under Bert but we need to win. Wojo is on the clock and anyone who thinks otherwise is in denial about the reality of revenue-generating college athletics.
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Unless we are winning at a Nova or Xavier rate (top 8 teams in the country), we aren't going to be filling up the BC for more than games against those types of teams, which are games that we'll be filling up the BC for regardless of whether we're on the bubble or not.
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In a more perfect world you are correct.
Unfortunately , the President of the University is still star struck by the Duke connection. Look at the body language when you see these two together. The new AD is a corporate hack kind of guy and follows lock stop with his boss( it is good work if you can get it so I don't blame him) and will tow the company line so no help there.
So , until we get a new MU President , we are stuck with Wojo and will have to make the best of the situation for quite a while. The way I look at it, at least Wojo is a good recruiter, which is why I eagerly applaud all his recruiting efforts . That way, If Lovell eventually comes to his senses, the new coach that succeeds Wojo will arrive with a full cupboard. Wojos lousy coaching is why I am keen on getting some 20 win seasons while we are not making tournaments. Optically the 20 wins gives the impression to the media and casual observers that we are still relevant in the upper tier of the game. Which is why it is silly not to have the 31st game. Someday we will hire a good young coach who is a proven winner and knows how to motivate kids once they are actually on campus. In the meantime Wojo can keep bringing in guys like Hauser, Howard, Eke, Bailey etc and we will at least be able to tread water until help arrives. If we can get Lewis, John and Tillman the new coach will have a decent baseline of junior and senior talent when he arrives.
I do not feel even one iota "stuck" with Wojo. I am glad we have him, I think he's doing a good job and I think he will improve as he gains experience.
I believe Wojo will be far more likely to leave MU for what he deems a "better" job than to be fired -- at which point mopes like you will rail about his "disloyalty."
On the remote possibility that Lovell "comes to his senses" and fires Wojo after loading the cupboard, what leads you to believe that most of those loyal-to-Wojo recruits won't do what so often happens and follow him out the door? Which would leave us with a bare cupboard AGAIN, starting from scratch AGAIN, with a coach you won't like AGAIN because he can't win big immediately AGAIN.
I know you're pissed that Kostas "got away," but jeesh. Get a grip, man!
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Were you around for Deane replacing O'Neill? Because I just don't see a guy whose recruiting was negligent, at best, being the perfect replacement for anyone.
He did get a nice drunk on.
I had a few drunks on with Deano. Would prefer that doesn't happen again.
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Look, if we do not make the NCAA in 2017, Wojo will be on the hot seat.
Count on it!
I don't care how big President Lovell's man crush on Wojo might be, money talks. The cash cow that is the basketball program will start coming up dry if things don't turn around soon. Those of you who do not see this probably spent too much time in Political Science, Sociology or Philosophy.
What basketball means to Marquette is not unlike what football means to Notre Dame. Our student body is more diverse because of the visibility of our basketball program. The buildings, the campus improvements and even some of the environmental improvements around the Marquette neighborhood would never have been possible without the direct and indirect contribution of the basketball program.
Please remember something... all Marquette fandom is divided into threes. The first is anyone who went to Marquette between 1964 and 1980. We think we have a God-given right to fight for an NCAA Championship every year. That's because we know it is possible. The second group is anyone who attended Marquette between 1981 and 1990 or during the Deane years. They don't think we can do anything right -- and will stumble on our own toes. The third group went to MU during the Crean and Hillbilly years and saw the latest Final Four and the success the Hillbilly had. They think as soon as Wojo gets good, he's gone.
Two of those three groups see the NCAA tournament as the basis for success. There years in a row without the NCAA is a problem for both of those groups.
Good thing the administration doesn't make decisions based on what fans think. Fans are shortsighted and have irrational ideas like competing for the NCAA championship every year being still possible for Marquette in this day and age.
Progress is what's important. As long as there is positive trajectory Wojos seat will remain ice cold. It doesn't matter if fans are impatient with the speed it is going. Wojo improved greatly last season and all signs point to an improved team this season. Not sure why anyone thinks that's a sign of a soon to be hot seat.
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Good thing the administration doesn't make decisions based on what fans think. Fans are shortsighted and have irrational ideas like competing for the NCAA championship every year being still possible for Marquette in this day and age.
Progress is what's important. As long as there is positive trajectory Wojos seat will remain ice cold. It doesn't matter if fans are impatient with the speed it is going. Wojo improved greatly last season and all signs point to an improved team this season. Not sure why anyone thinks that's a sign of a soon to be hot seat.
Because we had a great record of going to the tournament and it's been broken. Until we get back, fans won't be happy. I'm not saying he should be on the hot seat nor do I believe he is at all, but I think it's fair to say that within the next two years, getting back to the NCAAs is a pretty important task. Now if we are on the wrong side of the NIT bubble this year after losing Henry, and make the NIT next year, I could see us getting to a 5-year drought before Wojo has any security issues. But if we're going into year 6 of no tournament with all Wojo's players, that seat almost has to start getting hot. It's not now, it's not next year, but eventually the fan disappointment will trickle up. This is still a results based business.
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Considering the amount of money that MU spends on hoops, it will matter rather soon to those who write checks.
http://www.businessinsider.com/these-20-schools-spend-the-most-money-on-their-basketball-teams-2012-1#4-marquette-17
Fortunately most of the people who write the checks understand what it takes to build a program and are just fine. They also know that firing a coach that is improving the program every year means blowing up what he's built and starting over. Which would mean even more time or of the tournament. You only look to fire a coach when the program shows signs of regressing. So far only upward trajectory with Wojo.
It is shortsighted to think that simply changing a coach will magically elevate a program.
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Because we had a great record of going to the tournament and it's been broken. Until we get back, fans won't be happy. I'm not saying he should be on the hot seat nor do I believe he is at all, but I think it's fair to say that within the next two years, getting back to the NCAAs is a pretty important task. Now if we are on the wrong side of the NIT bubble this year after losing Henry, and make the NIT next year, I could see us getting to a 5-year drought before Wojo has any security issues. But if we're going into year 6 of no tournament with all Wojo's players, that seat almost has to start getting hot. It's not now, it's not next year, but eventually the fan disappointment will trickle up. This is still a results based business.
Yes but getting rid of a coach who's improving every year means extending that drought by another 3 years or more. People in charge know that. Add long as progress is being made, Wojos seat is ice cold. Now that means he will eventually make the NCAA tournament. But if we make step towards that the next two years but just fall short, Wojo isn't going to be fired.
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Yes but getting rid of a coach who's improving every year means extending that drought by another 3 years or more. People in charge know that. Add long as progress is being made, Wojos seat is ice cold. Now that means he will eventually make the NCAA tournament. But if we make step towards that the next two years but just fall short, Wojo isn't going to be fired.
5 years is enough, first year does not count, other coaches talent or for MU lack of talent, then 4 years of his own talent. Henry was good and bad for Wojo, a one done
freshman I believe is great for the program, but bad for him. Puts Wojo behind the 8 ball. The new arena once built should be an incredible asset to sell new prospects
on. I have concerns in 2017 right now, that might change during the next few months. 2018 is critical for recruiting with 2 big players in the state, and Bailey hopefullly
coming. To fire him, do not see it till 2019 or 2020 at best. I believe he can recruit good players the next few years.
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5 years is enough, first year does not count, other coaches talent or for MU lack of talent, then 4 years of his own talent. Henry was good and bad for Wojo, a one done
freshman I believe is great for the program, but bad for him. Puts Wojo behind the 8 ball. The new arena once built should be an incredible asset to sell new prospects
on. I have concerns in 2017 right now, that might change during the next few months. 2018 is critical for recruiting with 2 big players in the state, and Bailey hopefullly
coming. To fire him, do not see it till 2019 or 2020 at best. I believe he can recruit good players the next few years.
+1000.
Look, recruiting has been the strength of his administration, which is saying something given how badly we've sucked. He is developing as a coach, and hopefully this all coalesces in the next year or so. This will be another year of "promise"
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5 years is enough, first year does not count, other coaches talent or for MU lack of talent, then 4 years of his own talent. Henry was good and bad for Wojo, a one done
freshman I believe is great for the program, but bad for him. Puts Wojo behind the 8 ball. The new arena once built should be an incredible asset to sell new prospects
on. I have concerns in 2017 right now, that might change during the next few months. 2018 is critical for recruiting with 2 big players in the state, and Bailey hopefullly
coming. To fire him, do not see it till 2019 or 2020 at best. I believe he can recruit good players the next few years.
Word. The 2018-19 season will feature a roster of Wojo-Only players. Barring transfers, it will be led by 2 good senior guards in Haanif and Traci, along with junior guard Markus Howard. #guardsgame. Judging by who the staff is prioritizing right now, I'm confident two more good recruiting classes are on the way in 2017 and 2018. If we still suck in the 18-19 season, the seat gets hot pretty quickly.
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Reading a lot of the posts here remind me of the same thinking, reasoning and rationale that a number of IU fans had for Tom Crean after his three seasons. Crean preached time and patience, building the program the right way and building for lasting success. After three seasons, those teams went 28-66 (much worse than what our teams have done post-Buzz). After 8 years, Crean has made the tournament four times, with three Sweet 16s. Now, IU fans have become so polar with him that his seat will always be hot regardless of whether he wins or not (mostly due to his tournament success).
As of today, we are continuing to get better and trend upwards. We won 20 games last year, and narrowly missed a postseason appearance by a couple of games. We are more balanced with talent next year, and should have better shooting and experience. I'm not sure how many games we will win, but I am confident our team will be better next year. Wojo has the team on the right track.
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Reading a lot of the posts here remind me of the same thinking, reasoning and rationale that a number of IU fans had for Tom Crean after his three seasons. Crean preached time and patience, building the program the right way and building for lasting success. After three seasons, those teams went 28-66 (much worse than what our teams have done post-Buzz). After 8 years, Crean has made the tournament four times, with three Sweet 16s. Now, IU fans have become so polar with him that his seat will always be hot regardless of whether he wins or not (mostly due to his tournament success).
As of today, we are continuing to get better and trend upwards. We won 20 games last year, and narrowly missed a postseason appearance by a couple of games. We are more balanced with talent next year, and should have better shooting and experience. I'm not sure how many games we will win, but I am confident our team will be better next year. Wojo has the team on the right track.
Unfortunately, not sure as of yet, 2017 has no bigmen with any experience, so I am not sure Wojo is on the right track. Needs to get at least one big man out of
the group they are trying to get.
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Yes but getting rid of a coach who's improving every year means extending that drought by another 3 years or more. People in charge know that. Add long as progress is being made, Wojos seat is ice cold. Now that means he will eventually make the NCAA tournament. But if we make step towards that the next two years but just fall short, Wojo isn't going to be fired.
I'm not saying he will be, I'm just saying that after the past decade or so, the angst from fans is understandable. We've become accustomed to winning. I can't blame anyone for wanting to see that continue.
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I'm not saying he will be, I'm just saying that after the past decade or so, the angst from fans is understandable. We've become accustomed to winning. I can't blame anyone for wanting to see that continue.
Agree with that completely. As a fan I am epically frustrated that we are still in an NCAA. I don't blame others for being frustrated. I do blame others for thinking that the proper way to deal with that frustration is call for Wojos head when all the data wet have points to him being a solid hire.
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5 years is enough, first year does not count, other coaches talent or for MU lack of talent, then 4 years of his own talent. Henry was good and bad for Wojo, a one done
freshman I believe is great for the program, but bad for him. Puts Wojo behind the 8 ball. The new arena once built should be an incredible asset to sell new prospects
on. I have concerns in 2017 right now, that might change during the next few months. 2018 is critical for recruiting with 2 big players in the state, and Bailey hopefullly
coming. To fire him, do not see it till 2019 or 2020 at best. I believe he can recruit good players the next few years.
I don't disagree at all. If we improve every year for Wojos first five years than we will be in the tournament. My comments are directed towards those who think his seat is getting hot after year three.
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I don't disagree at all. If we improve every year for Wojos first five years than we will be in the tournament. My comments are directed towards those who think his seat is getting hot after year three.
I agree, he works hard at his craft, and he is all over the country for recruits. I would like him to be more in the midwest as a guy like Galen Alexander out of Louisianna
is hard to get. Howard was because of Stan Johnson's long relationship, that takes years for that to happen. Hope Stan is here for years. If he can not make it here,
not sure who will be better. The administration does not want to go back to JC kids again.
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Weren't some calling for Jay Wright's head when he was missing the tourney? ::)
Wojo knows he needs to win. I expect that he will. We're all frustrated but 2 years of the recent 'slump' have exactly zero to do with Wojo. Btw, that doesn't mean that ticket sales won't be down again this year. They will.
I'm actually expecting us to be better this year and to surprise some people. More experience and less standing around waiting for an inefficient Henry to salvage another possession. Just think of the difference between the Belmont game and later in the year against quality opponents. Night and day. Occasional relapses? Sure. DePaul comes to mind and was God awful. More frequent big performances? Yep. Creighton out there and GTown at home. The kids were growing up. It'll show this year.
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Weren't some calling for Jay Wright's head when he was missing the tourney? ::)
Wojo knows he needs to win. I expect that he will. We're all frustrated but 2 years of the recent 'slump' have exactly zero to do with Wojo. Btw, that doesn't mean that ticket sales won't be down again this year. They will.
I'm actually expecting us to be better this year and to surprise some people. More experience and less standing around waiting for an inefficient Henry to salvage another possession. Just think of the difference between the Belmont game and later in the year against quality opponents. Night and day. Occasional relapses? Sure. DePaul comes to mind and was God awful. More frequent big performances? Yep. Creighton out there and GTown at home. The kids were growing up. It'll show this year.
I concur, and I like your optimism. It is not wild, misplaced, pie-in-the-sky optimism, but the kind of reasonable optimism a fan of a team should have.
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I'm actually expecting us to be better this year and to surprise some people. More experience and less standing around waiting for an inefficient Henry to salvage another possession. Just think of the difference between the Belmont game and later in the year against quality opponents. Night and day. Occasional relapses? Sure. DePaul comes to mind and was God awful. More frequent big performances? Yep. Creighton out there and GTown at home. The kids were growing up. It'll show this year.
I tend to agree. Looking forward to less freshman mistakes, more poise and let's hope better defense than we played down the stretch last year.
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Looking forward to less freshman mistakes, more poise and let's hope better defense than we played down the stretch last year.
And excellent outside shooting tends to cover up deficiencies in those areas.
Gonna see more space and pace with this roster, and the shooters at Wojo's disposal.
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Reading a lot of the posts here remind me of the same thinking, reasoning and rationale that a number of IU fans had for Tom Crean after his three seasons. Crean preached time and patience, building the program the right way and building for lasting success. After three seasons, those teams went 28-66 (much worse than what our teams have done post-Buzz). After 8 years, Crean has made the tournament four times, with three Sweet 16s. Now, IU fans have become so polar with him that his seat will always be hot regardless of whether he wins or not (mostly due to his tournament success).
As of today, we are continuing to get better and trend upwards. We won 20 games last year, and narrowly missed a postseason appearance by a couple of games. We are more balanced with talent next year, and should have better shooting and experience. I'm not sure how many games we will win, but I am confident our team will be better next year. Wojo has the team on the right track.
But weren't IU coming off sanctions having a number of awful years before crean and have their name in the mud?
Plus crean was a proven head coach. Wojo is not
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Good thing the administration doesn't make decisions based on what fans think. Fans are shortsighted and have irrational ideas like competing for the NCAA championship every year being still possible for Marquette in this day and age.
Progress is what's important. As long as there is positive trajectory Wojos seat will remain ice cold. It doesn't matter if fans are impatient with the speed it is going. Wojo improved greatly last season and all signs point to an improved team this season. Not sure why anyone thinks that's a sign of a soon to be hot seat.
TAMU, I enjoy reading your comments and I hope you don't take me the wrong way. We're in agreement more than we're not.
That said, you're dead wrong on this one. Progress is far less important than dollars and cents. If the cash cow that is Marquette Basketball is threatened by poor performance, then Coach Wojo's positioned will be threatened. I recognize he has a rebuilding period due to the train wreck the Hillbilly left, but the level of patience President Lovell will have has a .99 correlation to changes in basketball revenue. Period.
I'm as big a die hard as anyone on this Board. And I'm a big fan of Coach Wojo as well. I'm mildly optimistic for this year but I think either we win enough to be in the top half of the Big East and make the tournament or look for a drop-off in basketball revenue. I like our guys and I think they'll get it done.
Understand, I am not asking for his head. Quite the contrary. But I'm telling you that even at a Jesuit Catholic University, money doesn't talk -- it screams!
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money doesn't talk -- it screams!
It's Alright, Ma (I'm Only Bleeding) - Bob Dylan
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TAMU, I enjoy reading your comments and I hope you don't take me the wrong way. We're in agreement more than we're not.
That said, you're dead wrong on this one. Progress is far less important than dollars and cents. If the cash cow that is Marquette Basketball is threatened by poor performance, then Coach Wojo's positioned will be threatened. I recognize he has a rebuilding period due to the train wreck the Hillbilly left, but the level of patience President Lovell will have has a .99 correlation to changes in basketball revenue. Period.
I'm as big a die hard as anyone on this Board. And I'm a big fan of Coach Wojo as well. I'm mildly optimistic for this year but I think either we win enough to be in the top half of the Big East and make the tournament or look for a drop-off in basketball revenue. I like our guys and I think they'll get it done.
Understand, I am not asking for his head. Quite the contrary. But I'm telling you that even at a Jesuit Catholic University, money doesn't talk -- it screams!
The point TAMU is making is that firing Wojo within the next two years would cost MU substantially.
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TAMU, I enjoy reading your comments and I hope you don't take me the wrong way. We're in agreement more than we're not.
That said, you're dead wrong on this one. Progress is far less important than dollars and cents. If the cash cow that is Marquette Basketball is threatened by poor performance, then Coach Wojo's positioned will be threatened. I recognize he has a rebuilding period due to the train wreck the Hillbilly left, but the level of patience President Lovell will have has a .99 correlation to changes in basketball revenue. Period.
I'm as big a die hard as anyone on this Board. And I'm a big fan of Coach Wojo as well. I'm mildly optimistic for this year but I think either we win enough to be in the top half of the Big East and make the tournament or look for a drop-off in basketball revenue. I like our guys and I think they'll get it done.
Understand, I am not asking for his head. Quite the contrary. But I'm telling you that even at a Jesuit Catholic University, money doesn't talk -- it screams!
I got all that and absolutely agree. But because money talks I think Wojo's seat is ice cold and will remain ice cold as long as the program is improving.
If Wojo is slowly improving the program but falls short of the NCAA you could fire him and would be absolutely justified doing so. Didn't make the deadline right? Of course this likely means that you lose multiple players to transfer, any recruits you were in on or had committed likely decommit, and the new coach is going to have to scramble to put together a roster. You likely are back to where Wojo was when he took over and all of the sudden you are multiple years away from another NCAA bid.
Now you should absolutely do that if you think Wojo won't get you beyond the NIT or will only manage one ncaa appearance before crashing. But if the program has improved every season and appears to be on the verge of an ncaa appearance or even a consecutive string of them, why the hell would you flush that down just because Wojo hasn't met some sort of fan decided deadline?
Fortunately, the people who sign the checks recognize this. They don't just look at what a coach has done, they look at what the coach is building.
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The point TAMU is making is that firing Wojo within the next two years would cost MU substantially.
Bingo. Money talks is a reason why Wojo's seat is ice cold.
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I do not accept that the cupboard was bare when Wojo came in is a valid excuse for not making the tournament this year or next year.
2014-15 both Virginia Tech & MU finished last in their conferences.
2015-16 Virginia Tech receives an NIT bid and MU gets no bid.
The season may turn out differently, but early predictions are that Virginia Tech makes NCAA tournament and MU does not.
We can be happy with how MU players are performing off court and that is important. However, based on MU history they are underperforming on the court.
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I do not accept that the cupboard was bare when Wojo came in is a valid excuse for not making the tournament this year or next year.
2014-15 both Virginia Tech & MU finished last in their conferences.
2015-16 Virginia Tech receives an NIT bid and MU gets no bid.
The season may turn out differently, but early predictions are that Virginia Tech makes NCAA tournament and MU does not.
We can be happy with how MU players are performing off court and that is important. However, based on MU history they are underperforming on the court.
Apples and oranges comparison. We know Buzz goes for the quick fix. JUCO heavy rosters, short term fixes, it certainly works and works faster, but the hope at Marquette is something that lasts longer.
We saw how quickly Buzz's method came tumbling down. He did a poor job recruiting four year players so when the JUCOs were gone the bottom fell out. He sustained one season with four year players, and saw the writing on the wall. No such restrictions at Va Tech.
Not surprised to see Buzz winning sooner. But the hope is that Wojo will keep winning for years to come, by which time Buzz will probably have a new address.
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I got all that and absolutely agree. But because money talks I think Wojo's seat is ice cold and will remain ice cold as long as the program is improving.
If Wojo is slowly improving the program but falls short of the NCAA you could fire him and would be absolutely justified doing so. Didn't make the deadline right? Of course this likely means that you lose multiple players to transfer, any recruits you were in on or had committed likely decommit, and the new coach is going to have to scramble to put together a roster. You likely are back to where Wojo was when he took over and all of the sudden you are multiple years away from another NCAA bid.
Now you should absolutely do that if you think Wojo won't get you beyond the NIT or will only manage one ncaa appearance before crashing. But if the program has improved every season and appears to be on the verge of an ncaa appearance or even a consecutive string of them, why the hell would you flush that down just because Wojo hasn't met some sort of fan decided deadline?
Fortunately, the people who sign the checks recognize this. They don't just look at what a coach has done, they look at what the coach is building.
Superbly said.
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Apples and oranges comparison. We know Buzz goes for the quick fix. JUCO heavy rosters, short term fixes, it certainly works and works faster, but the hope at Marquette is something that lasts longer.
We saw how quickly Buzz's method came tumbling down. He did a poor job recruiting four year players so when the JUCOs were gone the bottom fell out. He sustained one season with four year players, and saw the writing on the wall. No such restrictions at Va Tech.
Not surprised to see Buzz winning sooner. But the hope is that Wojo will keep winning for years to come, by which time Buzz will probably have a new address.
This!!!!!!!
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Fortunately, the people who sign the checks recognize this. They don't just look at what a coach has done, they look at what the coach is building.
TAMU, you made a good point in your last post. Let me explain something very important -- being on the hot seat does not mean being fired. I think that is a distinction that has been somewhat lost in here.
Anybody who argues that we should fire our coach if we don't make the NCAA next year is insane. But the hot seat comes from evaluating progress, in wins and losses and in dollars and cents.
Being on the hot seat means you have a short fuse. It means that certain performance indicators are expected and that the consequences of not meeting the performance expectations are more dire and more dramatic.
I agree that if Coach Wojo for whatever reason does not work out, we go back to Square 1 and we've wasted three years -- or more. We also go back into the coaching market with a lot less cache that we had three years ago. But I also think that another mediocre year -- or worse -- means taking a good hard look at where we are, and aren't. The heat comes as a result of that evaluation.
My own view is we are a deeper and more experienced team than what we've seen since the departure of the Hillbilly. We'll learn to play defense and we'll make far fewer mistakes. We're more likely to play as a team and, while our conference is likely to be stronger top to bottom (and we do have the defending national champion in our conference), we'll be in the Top Half and a couple of Marquee wins will drive a 7 to 9 seed in the NCAA.
If I'm right, Coach Wojo should be Big East Coach of the Year and definitely NOT on the hot seat.
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I do not accept that the cupboard was bare when Wojo came in is a valid excuse for not making the tournament this year or next year.
2014-15 both Virginia Tech & MU finished last in their conferences.
2015-16 Virginia Tech receives an NIT bid and MU gets no bid.
The season may turn out differently, but early predictions are that Virginia Tech makes NCAA tournament and MU does not.
We can be happy with how MU players are performing off court and that is important. However, based on MU history they are underperforming on the court.
UCONN first year with Kevin Ollie no NCAA Tournament.
UCONN second year with Kevin Ollie NCAA Champions.
Obviously any coach in the world who doesn't have an NCAA Title by the end of his second season should be fired.
See how stupid that game is?
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UCONN first year with Kevin Ollie no NCAA Tournament.
UCONN second year with Kevin Ollie NCAA Champions.
Obviously any coach in the world who doesn't have an NCAA Title by the end of his second season should be fired.
See how stupid that game is?
U Conn was not eligible for the NCAA tournament in Ollies first year. They still went 20-10 and 10-8 in Big East.
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What you see as Lovell/Scholl/Cords being "star-struck by the Duke connection", I see as L/S/C being convinced they got the perfect post-Buzz hire, just as Buzz was the perfect post-Crean guy, Crean post-Deane, Deane post-O'Neill, ONeill post-Dukiet. And there the chain breaks...lol, although Majerus post-Raymonds wasn't a bad set-up, it's just that guys with no patience and little to go by to judge the new coach's acumen (like MU fan in NY ) jumped the gun on Rick and a gem was lost forever. Thankfully, said gem continued to hold MU close to his heart up until his untimely passing.
Actually I thought Majerus was an excellent choice . Majerus had an opportunity to go with the Bucks and took it. No one threw him out.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1314&dat=19860615&id=FVtWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Yu8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=4425,10136734&hl=en
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I think alot of people are not understanding the difference between "hot seat" and "firing". No one is calling for Wojo's head after this year. However if we finish at the bottom half of the Big East this year, and THEN the year after, we are having some talks. No matter how much you all want "traditional scholar athletes"
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U Conn was not eligible for the NCAA tournament in Ollies first year. They still went 20-10 and 10-8 in Big East.
Did UCONN not miss the NCAA Tournament in Ollie's first season and win the national championship in Ollie's second year or...?
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Actually I thought Majerus was an excellent choice . Majerus had an opportunity to go with the Bucks and took it. No one threw him out.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1314&dat=19860615&id=FVtWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Yu8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=4425,10136734&hl=en
And I have some swampland in central Florida for ya. At best it was a 'mutual agreement' to leave.
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I think alot of people are not understanding the difference between "hot seat" and "firing". No one is calling for Wojo's head after this year. However if we finish at the bottom half of the Big East this year, and THEN the year after, we are having some talks. No matter how much you all want "traditional scholar athletes"
I don't think anybody's misunderstanding the difference. People here are saying if we aren't in the NCAA Tournament after this season Wojo's seat will be hot. His seat is not going to be hot unless we take a step back this year. If people mean that we need to start discussing the direction of the program if Wojo doesn't have us in the NCAA Tournament by the 2018 NCAA Tournament, then don't say that Wojo's seat will be hot after the 2017 season if we aren't in the NCAA Tournament. Wojo's seat will be as cold as ice after the 2017 season unless we take a step back to where we were in Wojo's first year.
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And I have some swampland in central Florida for ya. At best it was a 'mutual agreement' to leave.
The whole Duane Johnson academic ineligibility hurt his cause and he was on hot seat for sure .
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A third Final Four for Wisconsin in four years!
http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/big-ten-offseason-storylines-experienced-wisconsin-has-final-four-potential/
Just sayin
;)
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A third Final Four for Wisconsin in four years!
http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/big-ten-offseason-storylines-experienced-wisconsin-has-final-four-potential/
Just sayin
;)
Cancel the season, someone said Wisconsin has Final Four potential.
Of course Wisconsin has the potential to do big things. They play in the B1G. Since you evidently think UW belongs to the Big East? Remember when UW lost to the 7th and 8th place teams in the Big East, 1 at home and 1 on a neutral court, and then finished 3rd in the B1G? Heck, you lost at home to a 5th place Horizon League team and a dead last Summit League team at home before going 12-6 in the B1G. Come join a real conference and let's see how your season goes.
What's Bo up to these days?
Thanks for your contribution to the Big East Coaching Stability thread. Very important! And hey, if it turns out to be true that UW does, in fact, make it to the Final Four, at least that means at least one B1G team can get past the Sweet 16 this season for a change! Maybe they can win the first national title for the B1G in 17 years! An outstanding 1 title in the last 27 years for the almighty B1G! The Big East and AAC are both 3 years into existence and have equaled that. What a joke.
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Actually, Rick bailed on MU, in June btw, before he got da heave ho. Definitely was feelin' da heat 'til his bud, Don Nelson, gave 'im an escape route, at a reduced salary, ta be da Bucks third assistant coach, ai na?
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I think alot of people are not understanding the difference between "hot seat" and "firing". No one is calling for Wojo's head after this year. However if we finish at the bottom half of the Big East this year, and THEN the year after, we are having some talks. No matter how much you all want "traditional scholar athletes"
We understand it perfectly. You are saying hot seat if no tourney this year and fired if no tourney the following year. We are saying ice cold seat if no tourney but improvement this year and lukewarm seat if no tourney the following year.
Putting deadlines on tournament appearances is a shortsighted and incorrect way of looking at a coaches performance. You need to look at the program the coach is building. If the coach it's building the program properly than the tournament appearances will come.
To be clear, I'm not saying that wojo has built the program properly. Not enough info yet. Signs so far are good. But I have concerns about the 17-18 season. Class of 2017 is a critical one for Wojo. Well know how critical once we see this seasons team in action
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Weren't some calling for Jay Wright's head when he was missing the tourney? ::)
Wojo knows he needs to win. I expect that he will. We're all frustrated but 2 years of the recent 'slump' have exactly zero to do with Wojo. Btw, that doesn't mean that ticket sales won't be down again this year. They will.
I'm actually expecting us to be better this year and to surprise some people. More experience and less standing around waiting for an inefficient Henry to salvage another possession. Just think of the difference between the Belmont game and later in the year against quality opponents. Night and day. Occasional relapses? Sure. DePaul comes to mind and was God awful. More frequent big performances? Yep. Creighton out there and GTown at home. The kids were growing up. It'll show this year.
Hope you are right. I'll believe we have better perimeter shooters when I see it. It has been so frustration to see our guys go to the corner for an open 3 and miss. Also, hope they can rebound and get that offensive tip in.
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Actually, Rick bailed on MU, in June btw, before he got da heave ho. Definitely was feelin' da heat 'til his bud, Don Nelson, gave 'im an escape route, at a reduced salary, ta be da Bucks third assistant coach, ai na?
Yep. About the truth of it.
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Weren't some calling for Jay Wright's head when he was missing the tourney? ::)
First off, I agree with your general sentiment: I don't think Wojo will - or should - be on the hot seat if we miss the dance this season.
Still, I don't think Wright is the best comparison. When people were calling for his head a few seasons back, Nova had missed the tournament only ONCE between 2005-2016 - in 2012. The main reason people were calling for his head was that once they got to the dance, they missed the Sweet Sixteen every year between 2009 and last season. Same concept - high expectations...but Wright had his team performing at a higher level than Wojo has thus far.
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UCONN first year with Kevin Ollie no NCAA Tournament.
UCONN second year with Kevin Ollie NCAA Champions.
Obviously any coach in the world who doesn't have an NCAA Title by the end of his second season should be fired.
See how stupid that game is?
No what is stupid is not recognizing coaching ability. A great coach gets the most out of the talent he has.
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No what is stupid is not recognizing coaching ability. A great coach gets the most out of the talent he has.
Not arguing that Wojo is a great coach. But I don't see evidence to suggest he's a bad one either. Give him time.
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No what is stupid is not recognizing coaching ability. A great coach gets the most out of the talent he has.
So you think Wojo could've gotten more out of a sophomore JJJ, a freshman Duane Wilson, a senior Derrick Wilson, a senior Juan Anderson, a junior Steve Taylor, half of a season from a sophomore Luke Fischer, 2/3 of a season from a senior transfer Matt Carlino, and the Mache twin walk ons? Loaded. Totally loaded.
Interesting take. I guess you really do recognize coaching ability better than me. My fault.
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And I have some swampland in central Florida for ya.
Glow, given the improbable growth in the Metro Orlando area, I'll take it!
Back in the 1960s, Central Florida swamp was won of the great real estate frauds!
Today, it is called Orlando.
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A third Final Four for Wisconsin in four years!
http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/big-ten-offseason-storylines-experienced-wisconsin-has-final-four-potential/
Just sayin
I'm happy for Ya and the Badgers.
;)
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Not arguing that Wojo is a great coach. But I don't see evidence to suggest he's a bad one either. Give him time.
This is really it. We know Wojo he can recruit and is a good steward of the program. It is the coaching that everyone wonders about. At this point Buzz took a short, rag tag group, and got them to the Tourney. Deane got to the dance & NIT Final with solid, yet not great talent.
My question is: do we have a Crean, who can only win with superior talent, or do we have a Deane? Remains to be seen. No rhyme intended.
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This is really it. We know Wojo he can recruit and is a good steward of the program. It is the coaching that everyone wonders about. At this point Buzz took a short, rag tag group, and got them to the Tourney. Deane got to the dance & NIT Final with solid, yet not great talent.
My question is: do we have a Crean, who can only win with superior talent, or do we have a Deane? Remains to be seen. No rhyme intended.
You can't have the Buzz argument both ways. If he was such a great coach to get Acker, Cubillan, etc. to play beyond their abilities, what about his last season? Few questioned whether he had enough talent, yet missed the NIT. Did he forget how to coach? Did he stop caring?
The difference, to me, was talent and how it fits together. Where Crean left Buzz pieces to work with, Buzz left Wojo very little.
I see Crean as a great recruiter, and average to above average in terms of in-game management and player development.
Buzz gets high marks for development, probably better than Crean for in-game management, maybe above average in recruiting (finds hidden gems, but doesn't always land top talent and can't always keep it when he does).
Wojo might just be the best recruiter of the three. In-game management and player development show promise — but I'd give him an incomplete at this point. Next season should tell us a lot more.
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You can't have the Buzz argument both ways. If he was such a great coach to get Acker, Cubillan, etc. to play beyond their abilities, what about his last season? Few questioned whether he had enough talent, yet missed the NIT. Did he forget how to coach? Did he stop caring?
Buzz has never understood how to assemble a team. His recruiting philosophy was simple. Get 2-3 points, 2-3 bigs, and the rest switchables. The problem is he only worried about getting superior athletes at the switchable positions. Look at his recruits for those positions. Junior, Derrick, Reggie Smith, TJ Taylor at the point. McMorrow, Otule, Gardner, Pierce at the center. The best guys on those lists are Junior, who vastly underperformed his ranking, and Gardner, who vastly outperformed his. Those guys were all, excepting Gardner, mid major. Buzz put all his major effort into his switchables.
That's why his team failed and we had a talent deficiency. Hell, you mention Cooby and Acker, don't forget Buzz tried to run those guys off his first year! He was a terrible evaluator of talent at the point, and when Derrick became the clear cut best option, we were in trouble.
Buzz's system worked best with talented switchables and multiple guys that could handle the ball. Cooby & Acker, Buycks & Cadougan, Junior and Blue, but as soon as Derrick was the only one left, we were in trouble.
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So you think Wojo could've gotten more out of a sophomore JJJ, a freshman Duane Wilson, a senior Derrick Wilson, a senior Juan Anderson, a junior Steve Taylor, half of a season from a sophomore Luke Fischer, 2/3 of a season from a senior transfer Matt Carlino, and the Mache twin walk ons? Loaded. Totally loaded.
Interesting take. I guess you really do recognize coaching ability better than me. My fault.
I never said that. What I originally posted was the statement that Wojo starting with a bare cupboard was not an excuse for not making the NCAA tournament this year or next. I gave a comparison between Virginia Tech and MU. First year they both finished last in their conference. Second year Buzz got an NIT bid and Wojo got no bid. This year Buzz's team is predicted to make NCAA tournament while MU is not. Someone responded to that post that it was stupid to compare one team to the next. Basically Buzz could recruit who he wanted (quickfix) and Wojo was limited to recruiting kids that filled a certain profile. All I stated was the great coaches do more with the talent they got. I did not directly comment on Wojo's coaching ability. What happens here is a difference of opinion based on hope. The Big East coaches predict where MU is going to finish and no one here wants to accept their predictions. However, the coaches and other prognosticators have been closer to reality the last two years than we like. Either MUscoopers are overrating MU's talent level or they are overrating the ability of the coaches. Honestly, I do think it comes down to the type of players the coaches are recruiting. Buzz likes athletic switchables who cannot shoot, but play hard defense and scrap for rebounds. Wojo likes shooters who so far do not like to fight for rebounds or play tough defense. My opinion, and you are free to argue otherwise, is that players that generally concentrate on outside shooting prefer to play on the outside and not like to mix it up underneath. The result is Wojo has a team of shooters that are not great rebounders, ball handlers or defenders. We need some barnyard dogs. Wojo could very well be getting the most he can out of our players, which would fit the description of a great coach getting more out of the talent he has. It may be that Wojo needs to do a much better job at recruiting. You need to build the best team possible. Everyone here would agree that Rowsey and Howard are great recruits. The trouble is they are fighting for minutes on a team that has all of its guards returning. Meanwhile we have no true power forward on the team. You have to either blame that on Henry or Wojo.
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I never said that. What I originally posted was the statement that Wojo starting with a bare cupboard was not an excuse for not making the NCAA tournament this year or next. I gave a comparison between Virginia Tech and MU. First year they both finished last in their conference. Second year Buzz got an NIT bid and Wojo got no bid. This year Buzz's team is predicted to make NCAA tournament while MU is not. Someone responded to that post that it was stupid to compare one team to the next. Basically Buzz could recruit who he wanted (quickfix) and Wojo was limited to recruiting kids that filled a certain profile. All I stated was the great coaches do more with the talent they got. I did not directly comment on Wojo's coaching ability. What happens here is a difference of opinion based on hope. The Big East coaches predict where MU is going to finish and no one here wants to accept their predictions. However, the coaches and other prognosticators have been closer to reality the last two years than we like. Either MUscoopers are overrating MU's talent level or they are overrating the ability of the coaches. Honestly, I do think it comes down to the type of players the coaches are recruiting. Buzz likes athletic switchables who cannot shoot, but play hard defense and scrap for rebounds. Wojo likes shooters who so far do not like to fight for rebounds or play tough defense. My opinion, and you are free to argue otherwise, is that players that generally concentrate on outside shooting prefer to play on the outside and not like to mix it up underneath. The result is Wojo has a team of shooters that are not great rebounders, ball handlers or defenders. We need some barnyard dogs. Wojo could very well be getting the most he can out of our players, which would fit the description of a great coach getting more out of the talent he has. It may be that Wojo needs to do a much better job at recruiting. You need to build the best team possible. Everyone here would agree that Rowsey and Howard are great recruits. The trouble is they are fighting for minutes on a team that has all of its guards returning. Meanwhile we have no true power forward on the team. You have to either blame that on Henry or Wojo.
(http://il5.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/1516243/thumb/1.jpg?i10c=img.resize(height:160))
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I never said that. What I originally posted was the statement that Wojo starting with a bare cupboard was not an excuse for not making the NCAA tournament this year or next. I gave a comparison between Virginia Tech and MU. First year they both finished last in their conference. Second year Buzz got an NIT bid and Wojo got no bid. This year Buzz's team is predicted to make NCAA tournament while MU is not. Someone responded to that post that it was stupid to compare one team to the next. Basically Buzz could recruit who he wanted (quickfix) and Wojo was limited to recruiting kids that filled a certain profile. All I stated was the great coaches do more with the talent they got. I did not directly comment on Wojo's coaching ability. What happens here is a difference of opinion based on hope. The Big East coaches predict where MU is going to finish and no one here wants to accept their predictions. However, the coaches and other prognosticators have been closer to reality the last two years than we like. Either MUscoopers are overrating MU's talent level or they are overrating the ability of the coaches. Honestly, I do think it comes down to the type of players the coaches are recruiting. Buzz likes athletic switchables who cannot shoot, but play hard defense and scrap for rebounds. Wojo likes shooters who so far do not like to fight for rebounds or play tough defense. My opinion, and you are free to argue otherwise, is that players that generally concentrate on outside shooting prefer to play on the outside and not like to mix it up underneath. The result is Wojo has a team of shooters that are not great rebounders, ball handlers or defenders. We need some barnyard dogs. Wojo could very well be getting the most he can out of our players, which would fit the description of a great coach getting more out of the talent he has. It may be that Wojo needs to do a much better job at recruiting. You need to build the best team possible. Everyone here would agree that Rowsey and Howard are great recruits. The trouble is they are fighting for minutes on a team that has all of its guards returning. Meanwhile we have no true power forward on the team. You have to either blame that on Henry or Wojo.
Funny you should bring up the preseason coaches polls and Buzz doing more with less. Going into Buzz's last season guess where Marquette was predicted to finish in the Big East by said coaches? That's right, first place. And then? Buzz's hard working, gritty, grinding team finished 17-15 overall, out of the NCAA Tournament, out of the NIT. Maybe his athletic, hard working, non shooting players needed to work a little harder?
Here's the thing. I'm not sure why you are comparing Virginia Tech to Marquette. What does VT have to do with MU? Burt was a head coach taking over a program where the former head coach wasn't taking over a different program, so not only did he get to bring his own MU recruits with him, he also got VT's recruits as well. So that's basically 2 recruiting classes before Wojo ever got one, considering Wojo was an assistant coach who didn't get to bring along a recruiting class with him from the school he was coaching at, and the former coach at the program he was taking over took nearly the entire recruiting class with him. So Buzz is bringing in essentially his 4th recruiting class to VT while Wojo is bringing in essentially his 2nd recruiting class to MU. It shouldn't be all that surprising why one program might be a little further along in their rebuild. They've had twice as many recruiting classes to work with.
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TAMU, I enjoy reading your comments and I hope you don't take me the wrong way. We're in agreement more than we're not.
That said, you're dead wrong on this one. Progress is far less important than dollars and cents. If the cash cow that is Marquette Basketball is threatened by poor performance, then Coach Wojo's positioned will be threatened. I recognize he has a rebuilding period due to the train wreck the Hillbilly left, but the level of patience President Lovell will have has a .99 correlation to changes in basketball revenue. Period.
I'm as big a die hard as anyone on this Board. And I'm a big fan of Coach Wojo as well. I'm mildly optimistic for this year but I think either we win enough to be in the top half of the Big East and make the tournament or look for a drop-off in basketball revenue. I like our guys and I think they'll get it done.
Understand, I am not asking for his head. Quite the contrary. But I'm telling you that even at a Jesuit Catholic University, money doesn't talk -- it screams!
There is a big difference between missing the tourney 3 years in a row in say, year 7 of your tenure and missing the first three years in your tenure when the cupboard was bare. Wojo is building a program from scratch and many of us, including the administration, are on board.
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Buzz ... Crean ... even Shaka F. Smart ...
Great coaches until they weren't.
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Funny you should bring up the preseason coaches polls and Buzz doing more with less. Going into Buzz's last season guess where Marquette was predicted to finish in the Big East by said coaches? That's right, first place. And then? Buzz's hard working, gritty, grinding team finished 17-15 overall, out of the NCAA Tournament, out of the NIT. Maybe his athletic, hard working, non shooting players needed to work a little harder?
Here's the thing. I'm not sure why you are comparing Virginia Tech to Marquette. What does VT have to do with MU? Burt was a head coach taking over a program where the former head coach wasn't taking over a different program, so not only did he get to bring his own MU recruits with him, he also got VT's recruits as well. So that's basically 2 recruiting classes before Wojo ever got one, considering Wojo was an assistant coach who didn't get to bring along a recruiting class with him from the school he was coaching at, and the former coach at the program he was taking over took nearly the entire recruiting class with him. So Buzz is bringing in essentially his 4th recruiting class to VT while Wojo is bringing in essentially his 2nd recruiting class to MU. It shouldn't be all that surprising why one program might be a little further along in their rebuild. They've had twice as many recruiting classes to work with.
The same reason I always compared Buzz's year to Crean's year. Old departed (traitor) coach vs. new coach. Buzz of course had a huge advantage his first year vs. Crean. I was interested in seeing how long it would take Crean to surpass Buzz. Crean won, because he is still at Indiana, but I do not think Crean has had the success he envisioned by jumping to school that would be much easier to recruit for. Buzz in his 6 years made the elite 8 and Crean in 8 years has not. Now I compare Wojo's results to the old coach's (Buzz) results. Especially since Buzz basically said he left because the New Big East would not be good (jerk'). I definitely want Wojo (MU) to have much greater success than Virginia Tech. That is why I follow the progress of the two programs. It is only year three, so it is really to early to tell. In the end Wojo will probably win, because he will still be at MU when Buzz is gone from Virginia Tech. Besides that I just do not buy the argument that a bare cupboard two years ago is a valid excuse for not making the tournament this year. That is why I brought up the comparison here, which was pointing out that their first year both team's finished last in their conference so they were comparatively mediocre at the start. Does anybody here really think it acceptable to not finish in the top half of the conference? Finishing 5th most years is going to result in an NCAA tournament bid.
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The same reason I always compared Buzz's year to Crean's year. Old departed (traitor) coach vs. new coach. Buzz of course had a huge advantage his first year vs. Crean. I was interested in seeing how long it would take Crean to surpass Buzz. Crean won, because he is still at Indiana, but I do not think Crean has had the success he envisioned by jumping to school that would be much easier to recruit for. Buzz in his 6 years made the elite 8 and Crean in 8 years has not. Now I compare Wojo's results to the old coach's (Buzz) results. Especially since Buzz basically said he left because the New Big East would not be good (jerk'). I definitely want Wojo (MU) to have much greater success than Virginia Tech. That is why I follow the progress of the two programs. It is only year three, so it is really to early to tell. In the end Wojo will probably win, because he will still be at MU when Buzz is gone from Virginia Tech. Besides that I just do not buy the argument that a bare cupboard two years ago is a valid excuse for not making the tournament this year. That is why I brought up the comparison here, which was pointing out that their first year both team's finished last in their conference so they were comparatively mediocre at the start. Does anybody here really think it acceptable to not finish in the top half of the conference? Finishing 5th most years is going to result in an NCAA tournament bid.
Yes, given the circumstances, I believe it was acceptable that Marquette didn't finish in the top half of the Big East in either of Wojo's first two seasons.
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Here's what's being lost on some. Wojo seems committed to building a sustainable winning culture. So we've brought in mostly Frosh interested in the long haul. We should start to see some fruit this year and especially next. And of course mixing in the occasional transfer supplements that process. But let's not count a very good Carlino. He almost single handedly kept us from being an 8 win team.
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Do people forget that Buzz was left with three basically four year starters and a junior that eventually became a first round pick? How on gods green earth can you compare that to the trash pile that Wojo was left with?
If Buzz would have stuck around, his team two years ago would have sucked as well. Probably why he left in the first place.
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Do people forget that Buzz was left with three basically four year starters and a junior that eventually became a first round pick? How on gods green earth can you compare that to the trash pile that Wojo was left with?
If Buzz would have stuck around, his team two years ago would have sucked as well. Probably why he left in the first place.
+1
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Do people forget that Buzz was left with three basically four year starters and a junior that eventually became a first round pick? How on gods green earth can you compare that to the trash pile that Wojo was left with?
If Buzz would have stuck around, his team two years ago would have sucked as well. Probably why he left in the first place.
+1 as well.
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Do people forget that Buzz was left with three basically four year starters and a junior that eventually became a first round pick? How on gods green earth can you compare that to the trash pile that Wojo was left with?
Butler was a sophomore, not a junior. And Buzz wasn't "left" with him by Crean. He committed to Buzz and MU a couple of weeks after Buzz got the job and was a key to Buzz's rebuild.
The other 3 guys, yes - Buzz was left with a very good team in year 1. For year 2, he was left with Lazar, Cubillan and Acker. And got a 6 seed in the NCAAs. For year 2, Wojo was left with Luke Fischer, Duane Wilson and JJJ. And finished sub .500 in conference and didn't even make the NIT. Whose "rebuild" would you say was better?
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Do people forget that Buzz was left with three basically four year starters and a junior that eventually became a first round pick? How on gods green earth can you compare that to the trash pile that Wojo was left with?
If Buzz would have stuck around, his team two years ago would have sucked as well. Probably why he left in the first place.
Another +1
Buzz was handed 4 of MU's 9 all-time leading scorers (Jerel, Lazar, Dominic and Wesley). His only job that first year was not to screw things up....
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Butler was a sophomore, not a junior. And Buzz wasn't "left" with him by Crean. He committed to Buzz and MU a couple of weeks after Buzz got the job and was a key to Buzz's rebuild.
Sultan wasn't talking about Butler. He was referring to Jerel, Dominic and Wesley (Seniors) and Lazar (Junior who became a first round pick). All were "left" to Buzz by TC.
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Butler was a sophomore, not a junior. And Buzz wasn't "left" with him by Crean. He committed to Buzz and MU a couple of weeks after Buzz got the job and was a key to Buzz's rebuild.
The other 3 guys, yes - Buzz was left with a very good team in year 1. For year 2, he was left with Lazar, Cubillan and Acker. And got a 6 seed in the NCAAs. For year 2, Wojo was left with Luke Fischer, Duane Wilson and JJJ. And finished sub .500 in conference and didn't even make the NIT. Whose "rebuild" would you say was better?
And let's remember that by Buzz' second year Jimmy was a Junior, an emerging young star and the key guy in the late season OT run that propelled them to the tourney. No doubt he was very key to the early success of the Buzz era. Oh, and now he's an all star and will be an Olympic gold medalist after having over 30 teams pass him in the draft.
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And let's remember that by Buzz' second year Jimmy was a Junior, an emerging young star and the key guy in the late season OT run that propelled them to the tourney. No doubt he was very key to the early success of the Buzz era. Oh, and now he's an all star and will be an Olympic gold medalist after having over 30 teams pass him in the draft.
That's a mathematical impossibility, as there are only 30 NBA teams and he was drafted 30th. At most, 29 teams could have passed on him 29 times, and some of them (including the Bulls) had multiple picks, so it was even fewer than that.
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Butler was a sophomore, not a junior. And Buzz wasn't "left" with him by Crean. He committed to Buzz and MU a couple of weeks after Buzz got the job and was a key to Buzz's rebuild.
The other 3 guys, yes - Buzz was left with a very good team in year 1. For year 2, he was left with Lazar, Cubillan and Acker. And got a 6 seed in the NCAAs. For year 2, Wojo was left with Luke Fischer, Duane Wilson and JJJ. And finished sub .500 in conference and didn't even make the NIT. Whose "rebuild" would you say was better?
Lazar not Butler
Edit: Goooo beat me to it
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Butler was a sophomore, not a junior. And Buzz wasn't "left" with him by Crean. He committed to Buzz and MU a couple of weeks after Buzz got the job and was a key to Buzz's rebuild.
The other 3 guys, yes - Buzz was left with a very good team in year 1. For year 2, he was left with Lazar, Cubillan and Acker. And got a 6 seed in the NCAAs. For year 2, Wojo was left with Luke Fischer, Duane Wilson and JJJ. And finished sub .500 in conference and didn't even make the NIT. Whose "rebuild" would you say was better?
Wojo's rebuild is incomplete. We'll have to see.
But Wojo started from ground zero or darn close to it, Buzz did not have to. Buzz was able to come out of the blocks playing winning basketball, continuing to set a tone for the program. He was able to recruit saying, "We've been to the NCAAs for 4 straight years, and we're in the best conference in America, come join us." Wojo certainly has not had that. Nor has Wojo had carte blanche to recruit the Jae Crowders of the world.
Lenny, you know I'm not a Buzz hater. I am one who appreciates what he did here -- and I appreciated Crean, too, for that matter. But to say Buzz didn't have major, major advantages over Wojo early on, I think you know that's wrong.
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Yes, given the circumstances, I believe it was acceptable that Marquette didn't finish in the top half of the Big East in either of Wojo's first two seasons.
I am not talking the first two seasons. I am talking this season and the future. You can always have a down year, but what are your expectations for the MU program? Up until two years ago we never finished worse than 9-9 in the Big East. I think that is what should be expected and by year three that is what we should be achieving. At 8-10 last year we almost got there and we would of made it, if we did not lose a home game to DePaul. 9-9 this year ( a one win improvement) is not unreasonable expectations.
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I am not talking the first two seasons. I am talking this season and the future. You can always have a down year, but what are your expectations for the MU program? Up until two years ago we never finished worse than 9-9 in the Big East. I think that is what should be expected and by year three that is what we should be achieving. At 8-10 last year we almost got there and we would of made it, if we did not lose a home game to DePaul. 9-9 this year ( a one win improvement) is not unreasonable expectations.
I agree in principal. But I think that the BEast is going to be so strong and top heavy that you could go 9-9 and still finish in the bottom half of the conference.
I think the BEast has seven top 50 teams in it this season. Every game is going to be a battle.
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I agree in principal. But I think that the BEast is going to be so strong and top heavy that you could go 9-9 and still finish in the bottom half of the conference.
I think the BEast has seven top 50 teams in it this season. Every game is going to be a battle.
I agree with this and think it's a big part of why the noncon is so important. Right now I feel Villanova and Xavier are tourney locks, but Creighton, Seton Hall, Butler, Georgetown, and Marquette could all be tourney worthy teams. 9 Big East wins and 19 total wins should give any of those teams a decent case.
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I am not talking the first two seasons. I am talking this season and the future. You can always have a down year, but what are your expectations for the MU program? Up until two years ago we never finished worse than 9-9 in the Big East. I think that is what should be expected and by year three that is what we should be achieving. At 8-10 last year we almost got there and we would of made it, if we did not lose a home game to DePaul. 9-9 this year ( a one win improvement) is not unreasonable expectations.
Depending upon circumstances, I agree those are not unreasonable expectations for the upcoming season and beyond.
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Sultan wasn't talking about Butler. He was referring to Jerel, Dominic and Wesley (Seniors) and Lazar (Junior who became a first round pick). All were "left" to Buzz by TC.
I stand corrected.
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That's a mathematical impossibility, as there are only 30 NBA teams and he was drafted 30th. At most, 29 teams could have passed on him 29 times, and some of them (including the Bulls) had multiple picks, so it was even fewer than that.
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Okay, fine. You win.
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Okay, fine. You win.
Don't give up that easily. If you're the last pick of the first round, the team that selected you could in theory have had an earlier pick in the first round and not taken you, while all other teams could've either picked someone else or traded their pick instead of taking you, so while it didn't happen that way, it's also not a mathematical impossibility. It's possible, just didn't happen that way.
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I agree with this and think it's a big part of why the noncon is so important. Right now I feel Villanova and Xavier are tourney locks, but Creighton, Seton Hall, Butler, Georgetown, and Marquette could all be tourney worthy teams. 9 Big East wins and 19 total wins should give any of those teams a decent case.
Once again the non conference is going to be the make or break for every team in The Big East. Everyone will chew each other up in conference. I am still aggrieved over the fact we did not schedule the full 13 non conference games.
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Once again the non conference is going to be the make or break for every team in The Big East. Everyone will chew each other up in conference. I am still aggrieved over the fact we did not schedule the full 13 non conference games.
You are right, the non-conference is important. That's why scheduling 12 teams instead of 12 teams plus an RPI suck like Grambling is a great idea.
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Don't give up that easily. If you're the last pick of the first round, the team that selected you could in theory have had an earlier pick in the first round and not taken you, while all other teams could've either picked someone else or traded their pick instead of taking you, so while it didn't happen that way, it's also not a mathematical impossibility. It's possible, just didn't happen that way.
Well, there's still not over 30 teams in the league that could have passed on him ;)
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Well, there's still not over 30 teams in the league that could have passed on him ;)
That's why some (at least 2, since the team who picked that player would've would've had an earlier first round pick) had to trade their first round pick (meaning passing up on a chance to draft that player) to the other teams without a first round pick.
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You are right, the non-conference is important. That's why scheduling 12 teams instead of 12 teams plus an RPI suck like Grambling is a great idea.
Who said the 13th has to be a sucky team.
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Who said the 13th has to be a sucky team.
Because the only reason you don't schedule a 13th game is because the only schools you could find were the sucky ones.
We were supposed to play Utah. It fell apart due to scheduling issues. Only teams left would have been crap.
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Because the only reason you don't schedule a 13th game is because the only schools you could find were the sucky ones.
We were supposed to play Utah. It fell apart due to scheduling issues. Only teams left would have been crap.
Win versus no Win, I will take a win.
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A win vs a very low ranked team will only lower our RPI. Which was a clear issue last year.
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Win versus no Win, I will take a win.
A NCAA bid is worth more than an extra win. Playing teams that lower your RPI, at least as long as RPI remains such a heavy factor in influencing who is in and out, is a mistake. Marquette is better off not playing that game than taking a team that will hurt their resume, especially when they are likely to be a bubble team already.
At this time of year, there are two types of teams you can get for that buy game. Someone awful that no one else wants to play, or someone really dangerous that everyone is afraid to play. It's basically a Grambling or Stephen F Austin type debate. Beating Grambling hurts you, losing to SFA hurts you. There's a reason those types of teams have trouble filling their schedules, and we aren't in a position to throw either type of team a bone when we're already likely to be sitting on our hands come Selection Sunday.
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Cancel the season, someone said Wisconsin has Final Four potential.
Of course Wisconsin has the potential to do big things. They play in the B1G. Since you evidently think UW belongs to the Big East? Remember when UW lost to the 7th and 8th place teams in the Big East, 1 at home and 1 on a neutral court, and then finished 3rd in the B1G? Heck, you lost at home to a 5th place Horizon League team and a dead last Summit League team at home before going 12-6 in the B1G. Come join a real conference and let's see how your season goes.
What's Bo up to these days?
Thanks for your contribution to the Big East Coaching Stability thread. Very important! And hey, if it turns out to be true that UW does, in fact, make it to the Final Four, at least that means at least one B1G team can get past the Sweet 16 this season for a change! Maybe they can win the first national title for the B1G in 17 years! An outstanding 1 title in the last 27 years for the almighty B1G! The Big East and AAC are both 3 years into existence and have equaled that. What a joke.
Some teams take a little longer to gel. Would you rather be playing well in December or March?
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Some teams take a little longer to gel. Would you rather be playing well in December or March?
I'd love to have the easy B1G schedule vs. the tough Big East schedule when the top teams are created as equals. Maybe your "playing well in March" will get you a B1G team in the E8 next year! Heck, maybe I'll even see a 2nd B1G team win a national title sometime in my lifetime!
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I'd love to have the easy B1G schedule vs. the tough Big East schedule when the top teams are created as equals. Maybe your "playing well in March" will get you a B1G team in the E8 next year! Heck, maybe I'll even see a 2nd B1G team win a national title sometime in my lifetime!
We played the 17th toughest schedule in the nation. Marquette played the 107th.
In the last 30 years, the Big East has won one title. The Big Ten has won four. Are you less than 15 years old, otherwise you have seen two already.
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We played the 17th toughest schedule in the nation. Marquette played the 107th.
In the last 30 years, the Big East has won one title. The Big Ten has won four. Are you less than 15 years old, otherwise you have seen two already.
Weird. Curious to know who in the B1G has won a national title since MSU in 2000. That's more than 15 years with 0 titles.
The Big East has been around for 3 years and already had as many titles as the B1G in the past 25 years.
You aren't very good at math are you? Maybe you played football at UW@Madison? Can't even count to 15 using fingers and toes but still was on the Dean's List at UW@Madison!
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Weird. Curious to know who in the B1G has won a national title since MSU in 2000. That's more than 15 years with 0 titles.
The Big East has been around for 3 years and already had as many titles as the B1G in the past 25 years.
You aren't very good at math are you? Maybe you played football at UW@Madison? Can't even count to 15 using fingers and toes but still was on the Dean's List at UW@Madison!
Championships follow schools to their new conferences. The Big East is not three years old. It was created in 1979, you can confirm that on the official Big East website. Not 3 years old, but almost 40. How's my math?
In 2002, Maryland won the national title. Maryland was then part of the ACC, it is now part of the Big Ten, and championships follow schools to their conferences.
Prior to Villanova winning this year, the previous Big East title was in 1985. Since 1985, the Big Ten won titles in 1987, 1989, 2000, and 2002.
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Championships follow schools to their new conferences. The Big East is not three years old. It was created in 1979, you can confirm that on the official Big East website. Not 3 years old, but almost 40. How's my math?
In 2002, Maryland won the national title. Maryland was then part of the ACC, it is now part of the Big Ten, and championships follow schools to their conferences.
Prior to Villanova winning this year, the previous Big East title was in 1985. Since 1985, the Big Ten won titles in 1987, 1989, 2000, and 2002.
Yeah when your conference has 1 national title since 1990 you do have to pretend that a school's title for a different conference counts towards yours. Good stuff.
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Championships follow schools to their new conferences. The Big East is not three years old. It was created in 1979, you can confirm that on the official Big East website. Not 3 years old, but almost 40. How's my math?
In 2002, Maryland won the national title. Maryland was then part of the ACC, it is now part of the Big Ten, and championships follow schools to their conferences.
Prior to Villanova winning this year, the previous Big East title was in 1985. Since 1985, the Big Ten won titles in 1987, 1989, 2000, and 2002.
If we are going to use the entire 40 year history of the BE, then:
2016 NOVA
2013 Louisville
2011 UCONN
2004 UCONN
2003 Syracuse
1999 UCONN
1985 NOVA
1984 Georgetown
So since 1985, the BE has won 7 NCAA titles and 8 since 1984.
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A NCAA bid is worth more than an extra win. Playing teams that lower your RPI, at least as long as RPI remains such a heavy factor in influencing who is in and out, is a mistake. Marquette is better off not playing that game than taking a team that will hurt their resume, especially when they are likely to be a bubble team already.
At this time of year, there are two types of teams you can get for that buy game. Someone awful that no one else wants to play, or someone really dangerous that everyone is afraid to play. It's basically a Grambling or Stephen F Austin type debate. Beating Grambling hurts you, losing to SFA hurts you. There's a reason those types of teams have trouble filling their schedules, and we aren't in a position to throw either type of team a bone when we're already likely to be sitting on our hands come Selection Sunday.
We are at the stage in our program where we need wins for optical reasons. We could play a D2 like Grand Valley State which would not count toward RPI.
I want to see us get to the 20 win mark again. To get to the NCAA we need 5th or higher in the Big East which is a tall order.
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In 2002, Maryland won the national title. Maryland was then part of the ACC, it is now part of the Big Ten, and championships follow schools to their conferences.
Yeah..about that. Sports reference disagrees with you. Perhaps the BIG1? media guide has it's own PR agenda, but that title is with the ACC.
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/conferences/big-ten/ncaa.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/conferences/acc/ncaa.html
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Yeah..about that. Sports reference disagrees with you. Perhaps the BIG1? media guide has it's own PR agenda, but that title is with the ACC.
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/conferences/big-ten/ncaa.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/conferences/acc/ncaa.html
Oops?
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Badger honeys are notoriously poor at facts, consistency, and avoiding hypocrisy. Thanks for the unintended comedy. Or, to borrow from The Rock, thanks for knowing your role.
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Badger honeys are notoriously poor at facts, consistency, and avoiding hypocrisy. Thanks for the unintended comedy. Or, to borrow from The Rock, thanks for knowing your role.
Pretty sure you left out a key component of that, being the "and shut your mouth".
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Championships follow schools to their new conferences. The Big East is not three years old. It was created in 1979
Actually this is incorrect. When the C7 split off from the football schools they created a new conference but secured the the Big East brand. The football schools were still considered to be in the same conference but it was renamed to the American Athletic Conference.
So yes, the Big East has more championships in its three years of existence than the B1G has had in the last 16....Unless you want to do something shady, like count Maryland's championship that they won in the ACC towards the B1G's count, lol.
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Actually this is incorrect. When the C7 split off from the football schools they created a new conference but secured the the Big East brand. The football schools were still considered to be in the same conference but it was renamed to the American Athletic Conference.
So yes, the Big East has more championships in its three years of existence than the B1G has had in the last 16....Unless you want to do something shady, like count Maryland's championship that they won in the ACC towards the B1G's count, lol.
Here is a link to the Big East 2015-16 Basketball Media Guide this gives a good perspective of how the Conference considers its past records and championships.
https://issuu.com/pflenke/docs/bembb2016_all__1_
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Did Michigan, Michigan State, UW, Rutgers, Nebraska, Northwestern, Penn State, Ohio State, etc. get conference shares for Maryland's 2002 NCAA championship? I think we all know the answer. But when you pretend you're one of the top conferences in the country but only have 1 title in the past 25+ years, desperation tends to settle in and you act like Maryland's NCAA Championship as a member of the ACC counts for you because they switched over 12 years later.
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By that logic, MU's sweet 16 run under KO counts toward the Big East's total.
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By that logic, MU's sweet 16 run under KO counts toward the Big East's total.
Can't believe Al got the Big East a title. People say he was revolutionary to the sport of college basketball. I never thought it was so much so that he won a national title for a conference that didn't even exist at the time he was coaching.
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Can't believe Al got the Big East a title. People say he was revolutionary to the sport of college basketball. I never thought it was so much so that he won a national title for a conference that didn't even exist at the time he was coaching.
;D