Warriors vs Cavaliers II

[MU82]

He also dominates the ball too much.  Everyone who has played with him has statistically declined significantly.  He is the rare player that makes players worse and is absurdly uncoachable...coaches have to agree to do what Lebron does.

This sounds almost exactly like the criticism Jordan got from his detractors. And he did have detractors, although those folks mostly had to shut up once Jordan got to 4, 5, 6 titles.

[forgetful]

This sounds almost exactly like the criticism Jordan got from his detractors. And he did have detractors, although those folks mostly had to shut up once Jordan got to 4, 5, 6 titles.

I agree, to a point.  Jordan's first 6 seasons, he did dominate the ball too much and his team suffered as a result.  He learned to adapt to the team and involve them much much more. 

That is why he went on to win 3-straight titles and if he didn't go play baseball, would probably have won 4 or 6 straight.

Lebron, never learned. 

Also, when Jordan was dominating the ball, he was putting up crazy numbers like 37 pts (or 35 points per game).

I think an interesting stat would be time of possession per player.  Lebron would be up there.  He also spends most of it standing still and dribbling instead of going somewhere with it.

Yes, I know...I hate Lebron and it is clouding my judgement...

[wadesworld]

I never said you couldn't.  I can just claim that your reasons are illogical.  If you don't care about my opinion on your reasons, don't post them...or don't respond to me...or put me on ignore.  Whatever.

They are illogical to who?

[GGGG]

Personally, (and we've debated this before), I think Lebron is an over-rated player.  He benefits greatly from a change in rules emphasis.

They ignore blatant offensive fouls on him every possession when he drives into a defender in place and pushes off or runs him over.  Any other player and they call them all fouls and Lebron doesn't make it to the first media time out.

He lacks lateral quickness and instead powers through players.  They ignore and changed how those fouls are called to benefit him.

He also dominates the ball too much.  Everyone who has played with him has statistically declined significantly.  He is the rare player that makes players worse and is absurdly uncoachable...coaches have to agree to do what Lebron does.

His absurd athletic ability and the way games are officiated have made him a dominant player; but his attitude has led to him having far less success than he is capable of. 

I want to emphasize that when I say over-rated, I'm saying that in comparison to people saying he is an all-time top 5 player.  He is nowhere near the league of Jordan, Magic, Bird, Oscar Robinson, Wilt the stilt, Kareem etc.

Those types of players had rules changed to make them less effective, so they didn't dominate the game as much.  Lebron had rule changes to make him more effective.

I compare Lebron more to Shaquille.  Another player that was able to dominate based on power only, and the ignoring of rules in the NBA.

Yes, I'm aware this is a fringe belief.

I actually don't disagree with a lot of this.  But my response is, just because Shaq and Lebron are athletic and physical freaks, that shouldn't really count against them.  Whether or not someone has lateral quickness, and has to power through defenders and the refs don't call a foul, isn't really his fault.  And this gets too many people to downgrade his impact.

For instance, "he is nowhere in the league of Larry Bird?"  Lebron is a much superior basketball player to Bird.

He's a better shooter based on career eFG% (.532 v. .514) shooting roughly the same amount per game (19.7 v. 19.3).  He's a better passer, in terms of assist percentage (34.6% v. 24.7%).  He's more efficient based on PER....slightly better offensive and defensive ratings...almost 50 more win shares after the same number of seasons...turns the ball over less based on turnover percentage...etc. etc. etc.

Bird was a better rebounder based on total rebounding percentage.  He was also a better three point shooter - you would think "of course" right?  Only 37.6% 34%.  Or three additional makes over 100 shots.

Bird has one more championship (3 v. 2) in one less appearance (5 v. 6)

Larry Bird played with three additional members of the Basketball Hall of Fame (DJ, Parish, McHale).  Lebron didn't play with any his first go around in Cleveland...likely two in Miami...and a couple of "we'll see" type players now.

So did Larry make his teammates better?  Or did he fortuitously simply have better teammates?

[GGGG]

They are illogical to who?

Me.

[StillAWarrior]

I actually don't disagree with a lot of this.  But my response is, just because Shaq and Lebron are athletic and physical freaks, that shouldn't really count against them.  Whether or not someone has lateral quickness, and has to power through defenders and the refs don't call a foul, isn't really his fault.  And this gets too many people to downgrade his impact.

For instance, "he is nowhere in the league of Larry Bird?"  Lebron is a much superior basketball player to Bird.

He's a better shooter based on career eFG% (.532 v. .514) shooting roughly the same amount per game (19.7 v. 19.3).  He's a better passer, in terms of assist percentage (34.6% v. 24.7%).  He's more efficient based on PER....slightly better offensive and defensive ratings...almost 50 more win shares after the same number of seasons...turns the ball over less based on turnover percentage...etc. etc. etc.

Bird was a better rebounder based on total rebounding percentage.  He was also a better three point shooter - you would think "of course" right?  Only 37.6% 34%.  Or three additional makes over 100 shots.

Bird has one more championship (3 v. 2) in one less appearance (5 v. 6)

Larry Bird played with three additional members of the Basketball Hall of Fame (DJ, Parish, McHale).  Lebron didn't play with any his first go around in Cleveland...likely two in Miami...and a couple of "we'll see" type players now.

So did Larry make his teammates better?  Or did he fortuitously simply have better teammates?

I have no problem with people who don't like LeBron.  I feel differently, but to each his own.  But I don't understand people who think he's overrated or not one of the very best ever.  At that point, I simply conclude -- as forgetful admits -- they are just clouded by LeBron hate.

[wadesworld]

I have no problem with people who don't like LeBron.  I feel differently, but to each his own.  But I don't understand people who think he's overrated or not one of the very best ever.  At that point, I simply conclude -- as forgetful admits -- they are just clouded by LeBron hate.

Agreed.  The guy is the best of the generation.

But I hate him.

[MU82]

I agree, to a point.  Jordan's first 6 seasons, he did dominate the ball too much and his team suffered as a result.  He learned to adapt to the team and involve them much much more. 

That is why he went on to win 3-straight titles and if he didn't go play baseball, would probably have won 4 or 6 straight.

Lebron, never learned. 

Also, when Jordan was dominating the ball, he was putting up crazy numbers like 37 pts (or 35 points per game).

I think an interesting stat would be time of possession per player.  Lebron would be up there.  He also spends most of it standing still and dribbling instead of going somewhere with it.

Yes, I know...I hate Lebron and it is clouding my judgement...

I disagree that LeBron does not make those around him better. I disagree that he is overrated.

And unlike you, I am unbiased. I am neither a "hater" nor an apologist. I just appreciate greatness.

[StillAWarrior]

The criticism that annoys me most is the "he's only 2-4 in the Finals."  Well, you've got to get there six times to be 2-4.  I'll happily concede that 2-4 is not as good as MJ's 6-0.  But 2-4 is a greater accomplishment that 2-0.  This has bothered me for a while (also with Elway), and there was a good column addressing this issue on ESPN yesterday.

[cheebs09]

This is a bit of a mismatch.

[wadesworld]

This is why you don't let a player run your entire organization.  Blatt was a hundred times the coach Tyronn Lue is.  Whether that makes Blatt a great or a horrible coach I don't know, but I'm leaning more towards good.  He comes in and gets his team to mesh immediately in their first year (even with the Super Team of Wade/Bosh/LeBron all in their prime they had a worse first season than last year's Cavs team did), got them to the Finals and had a 2-1 series lead with Tristian Thompson and Timofy Mosgov as his 2nd and 3rd best players available, and were off to a 30-11 start this season.  Lue is completely lost.

Also, you trade a potential long term superstar (Wiggins) for a guy who just isn't very good (Love) 100% because it's what your hometown hero wants.

And when this "homecoming" fails, and LeBron orchestrates every move made, and he leaves again, he'll leave because he "didn't get enough help around him" like the first time he was in Cleveland.

[real chili 83]

The mistake on the lake.

[brandx]

This is why you don't let a player run your entire organization.  Blatt was a hundred times the coach Tyronn Lue is.  Whether that makes Blatt a great or a horrible coach I don't know, but I'm leaning more towards good.  He comes in and gets his team to mesh immediately in their first year (even with the Super Team of Wade/Bosh/LeBron all in their prime they had a worse first season than last year's Cavs team did), got them to the Finals and had a 2-1 series lead with Tristian Thompson and Timofy Mosgov as his 2nd and 3rd best players available, and were off to a 30-11 start this season.  Lue is completely lost.

Also, you trade a potential long term superstar (Wiggins) for a guy who just isn't very good (Love) 100% because it's what your hometown hero wants.

And when this "homecoming" fails, and LeBron orchestrates every move made, and he leaves again, he'll leave because he "didn't get enough help around him" like the first time he was in Cleveland.

Sorry, Wades. Lebron isn't the problem

Irving is a worse version of Stephon Marbury or Baron Davis. Kevin Love can only dream about being as good as Draymond Green. I said last yearthat Love was an overrated stiff whose numbers in Minny were due to playing on a crap team.

You cannot win when your 3rd and 4th best players (Irving, Love) don't play a lick of defense.

[GooooMarquette]

This is a bit of a mismatch.

Yeah.  After picking Warriors in 5, I'm thinking I may have given too much credit to the Cavs.

[GGGG]

This is why you don't let a player run your entire organization.

Because he got them to back to back Finals?  And in this one they are losing to what is arguably the best team ever?

Yeah f*ck that guy.

[GooooMarquette]

Because he got them to back to back Finals?  And in this one they are losing to what is arguably the best team ever?

Yeah f*ck that guy.

The guy LeBron got fired got them to the Finals too...and had them playing much better...without Love and Irving.

LeBron is a great player, but he shouldn't be picking the coach.

[wadesworld]

Because he got them to back to back Finals?  And in this one they are losing to what is arguably the best team ever?

Yeah f*ck that guy.

I think if you traded the Suns and Cavs in East/West the Suns might make back to back Finals.

I'll repeat myself. This is exactly why you don't let a player run your organization. The Cavs have a worse player (Love/Wiggins) and worse coach (Lue/Blatt) 100% because they let a player pick the guys he wants.

If you're cool getting worse because you made it to the Finals so be it. I'm guessing Cleveland fans aren't just happy to be back getting swept in the Finals again. I'd be hungry to actually win one. But hey I'm not one of them so I could be wrong! You're probably right, they're probably sitting there thinking, "It's okay we got rid of Wiggins and Blatt to get worse! We're getting embarrassed in the Finals! Let's celebrate!"

[GGGG]

I think if you traded the Suns and Cavs in East/West the Suns might make back to back Finals.

I'll repeat myself. This is exactly why you don't let a player run your organization. The Cavs have a worse player (Love/Wiggins) and worse coach (Lue/Blatt) 100% because they let a player pick the guys he wants.

If you're cool getting worse because you made it to the Finals so be it. I'm guessing Cleveland fans aren't just happy to be back getting swept in the Finals again. I'd be hungry to actually win one. But hey I'm not one of them so I could be wrong! You're probably right, they're probably sitting there thinking, "It's okay we got rid of Wiggins and Blatt to get worse! We're getting embarrassed in the Finals! Let's celebrate!"

So you think they'd win with Wiggins and Blatt?

[wadesworld]

So you think they'd win with Wiggins and Blatt?

Better chance short and long term than with what they have now, absolutely.

[forgetful]

Sorry, Wades. Lebron isn't the problem

Irving is a worse version of Stephon Marbury or Baron Davis. Kevin Love can only dream about being as good as Draymond Green. I said last yearthat Love was an overrated stiff whose numbers in Minny were due to playing on a crap team.

You cannot win when your 3rd and 4th best players (Irving, Love) don't play a lick of defense.

Or James makes them around him worse.  James needs to dominate the ball.  Irving is a pg, who is supposed to have the ball in his hands to make things happen.  With James, he is miscast.

Love is a guy that needs a good pg around him.  James is not a pg and dominates the ball.

This is an example of the team being a very poor fit.  James should not be paired with players like Irving/Love (incidentally, Irving/Love would work well together if the ball was in Irving's hands). 

For Cleveland, you have a player (James) that dribble and hold the ball too much.  Ball doesn't move.  Defense becomes absurdly easy.

In GSW, you have players that work well together.  No one dominates the ball.  The ball is constantly moving.  Everyone knows and is ok with their role.  Ball flies, defense is very hard. 

The problem is not the players' abilities.  It is the coaching and team style/mentality. 

If you traded Curry and Green/Thompson (one of the two only), to Cleveland for Lebron and Irving.

Cleveland with Curry and Green; or with Curry and Thompson would win the finals.  Lebron would still be on the losing end.

[wadesworld]

Or James makes them around him worse.  James needs to dominate the ball.  Irving is a pg, who is supposed to have the ball in his hands to make things happen.  With James, he is miscast.

Love is a guy that needs a good pg around him.  James is not a pg and dominates the ball.

This is an example of the team being a very poor fit.  James should not be paired with players like Irving/Love (incidentally, Irving/Love would work well together if the ball was in Irving's hands). 

For Cleveland, you have a player (James) that dribble and hold the ball too much.  Ball doesn't move.  Defense becomes absurdly easy.

In GSW, you have players that work well together.  No one dominates the ball.  The ball is constantly moving.  Everyone knows and is ok with their role.  Ball flies, defense is very hard. 

The problem is not the players' abilities.  It is the coaching and team style/mentality. 

If you traded Curry and Green/Thompson (one of the two only), to Cleveland for Lebron and Irving.

Cleveland with Curry and Green; or with Curry and Thompson would win the finals.  Lebron would still be on the losing end.

This I don't agree with.  LeBron clearly makes guys around him better.  But the Cavs would be better if they let their GM do the work of a GM and LeBron do the work of a player.  But instead LeBron gets to be GM, coach, and player.

[real chili 83]

Cadavers

[forgetful]

This I don't agree with.  LeBron clearly makes guys around him better.  But the Cavs would be better if they let their GM do the work of a GM and LeBron do the work of a player.  But instead LeBron gets to be GM, coach, and player.

Is Kevin Love better with Lebron?
Is Irving?
Was Wade?
Was Bosh?
Was Ilgauskas?

[brandx]

Is Kevin Love better with Lebron?
Is Irving?
Was Wade?
Was Bosh?
Was Ilgauskas?

Again, this is not Lebron's fault.

GS has 4 players far better than anyone on Cleveland (except Lebron).

I picked GS in 6 before the series started just because of Lebron. Take him off of Cleveland and they are the Timberwolves.

Hopefully, for Cleveland, Love will miss a couple games so at least they have a chance.

[rocket surgeon]

i picked the warriors in 5 and i'm almost feeling sorry for the cavs at this point.  they look really lost.  gs didn't even need the splash bros last night and ya'll saw what happened.  cleveland might steal one at home, but stick da fork in them now.  the looks on their faces is cruel punishment. 

as i said in an earlier post somewhere, love just isn't the same player he was at lowly minnesota.  what labron needs is a few warriors himself-wade, jae and jimmy eyn'a?